I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

[muscleupcrohn]

Let me know when your ready to run two bottles of King?

Sounds good man. I guess it's a good thing I didn't give it a run while in Canada, since I wasn't exactly completely consistent with taking supplements this past month, so it wouldn't have really been a fair evaluation of how it compares to x (I'd say .750) grams of PA from the granules. I think I should take the granules consistently for about a month before I add in/replace some of it with King to give it the best comparison I can, so I'll let you know for sure.

 

[TheFugitive]

Sounds good man. I guess it's a good thing I didn't give it a run while in Canada, since I wasn't exactly completely consistent with taking supplements this past month, so it wouldn't have really been a fair evaluation of how it compares to x (I'd say .750) grams of PA from the granules. I think I should take the granules consistently for about a month before I add in/replace some of it with King to give it the best comparison I can, so I'll let you know for sure.

PM me your shipping info?

 

[warpyfunch]

getting a little tired of chugging the sl granules. can anyone make a recommendation between King or Phospha Muscle or some other capped product?

 

[ma70]

Been wanting to try King but I'm waiting for more info on it. I'm dosing 3 tbsp of SL and it's still useful. Trying to limit my fat macros.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

getting a little tired of chugging the sl granules. can anyone make a recommendation between King or Phospha Muscle or some other capped product?

Phosphamuscle, has Mediator in it.

 

[squirtguns89]

Has anyone noticed other health markers after being on it as long as many of you have? as far as health benefits on cholesterol or anything?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I wish I had done a lipid panel right before I started (6 months now). I did one a few weeks back and my levels/ratios are all excellent; unfortunately I can only compare that to the one I had about 2 years ago, which probably wouldnt give a very accurate indication of any soy-l impact.

 

[Capt Awesome]

What kind of results have you guys seen as far as mass gain? The Mediator study averaged 5.3lbs in 8 weeks @750mg. Is that on par with what most have experienced? I've noticed a lot of people stating they have more of a recomp effect, though.

 

[Onefckngear]

I started with fearn granules yesterday. Two tbsp pre and two again post. I caught a sick pump, but I'm also or ergonine so I catch sick pumps every time I train.

Today is an off day so I had all four tbsp mixed in my shake. I have a protein powder, oat, and anpb shake as my first meal which is also my pre workout meal. I'm swapping the anpb for the granules and PB2 powder. The four tbsp of granules went down unnoticeably this way.

I have two tubs of fearns and I plan to use them for a while barring any odd reactions. I'll post up my findings.

 

[fatty]

The taste grew tiresome pretty quickly on the granules. I enjoyed chewing them up at first, now I just wash them down with water.

 

[HardB0iled]

The taste grew tiresome pretty quickly on the granules. I enjoyed chewing them up at first, now I just wash them down with water.

I like to mix 5 tablespoons with about 6 ounces of water and let it sit for 10 minutes until it turns into a gelatinous sludge. Mmmmmm.... Sludge.

 

[kboxer7]

What kind of results have you guys seen as far as mass gain? The Mediator study averaged 5.3lbs in 8 weeks @750mg. Is that on par with what most have experienced? I've noticed a lot of people stating they have more of a recomp effect, though.

Not sure what week I'm on of SL but it's gotta be 8 give or take a bit.

Here is what I continue to see/results:

- increase in muscle size, first noticeable in arms, but now is noticeable full body. Confirmed with measurements as I've been keeping track

- reduction in bf (possibly due to the choline based on my high SL dosage)

- Interestingly, an initial gain of weight 0.8 - 1.8lbs early on, but have maintained my current weight since despite increases in muscle size (odd, but I'm a stickler for data and I always double check on 2 diff scales same time every day)

Overall = recomp.

As for training & diet, I'm eating maintenance cals most days. A couple days a week I hit 100-200cals above maintenance. And 1 day a week I do an intentional bump to 400-800 excess cals.

Macros are:
- moderate fat
- high Protien
- low - moderate carbs

And just a "for fun" fact...I've been off Creatine for damn near 2 months (forgot to order it).

Once summer is over I can adjust my cals & go for a lean bulk to really test out that 5.3lbs in 8wks data

Regards,

 

[Onefckngear]

How are you dosing? Apologies if you've already mentioned it in this thread. Thanks.

Not sure what week I'm on of SL but it's gotta be 8 give or take a bit.

Here is what I continue to see/results:

- increase in muscle size, first noticeable in arms, but now is noticeable full body. Confirmed with measurements as I've been keeping track

- reduction in bf (possibly due to the choline based on my high SL dosage)

- Interestingly, an initial gain of weight 0.8 - 1.8lbs early on, but have maintained my current weight since despite increases in muscle size (odd, but I'm a stickler for data and I always double check on 2 diff scales same time every day)

Overall = recomp.

As for training & diet, I'm eating maintenance cals most days. A couple days a week I hit 100-200cals above maintenance. And 1 day a week I do an intentional bump to 400-800 excess cals.

Macros are:
- moderate fat
- high Protien
- low - moderate carbs

And just a "for fun" fact...I've been off Creatine for damn near 2 months (forgot to order it).

Once summer is over I can adjust my cals & go for a lean bulk to really test out that 5.3lbs in 8wks data

Regards,

 

[kboxer7]

How are you dosing? Apologies if you've already mentioned it in this thread. Thanks.

NP.

I started dosing at 3 tbsp, but quickly moved to 4, with the last month bumped up quite a bit.

I split those doses:

2 tbsp pre, 1 post when I started

Then moved to 2 pre + 2 post, which was better.

Then I tried 3 pre, 1 post and it was awesome (pumps, endurance)

Now I do:

2 tbsp in the AM with my shake (I workout at night). Later I take 3 pre, and 1-2 post.

This has proven to work best for me. The 2 tbsp AM is just my preference though. I don't "feel" anything from it. I just dose it to try and rev up mTOR again for recovery in the AM after my last evenings workout.

Regards,


Maybe I can pull up some before/after shots if anyone is interested. I didn't take too many cause it was just me and the mirror, but eh. Won't see the gf till the weekend but maybe she can help.

I'll pull up my measurement increases when I'm not on my mobile too. I'm due for checking in on those stats anyway.

 

[Capt Awesome]

Good to know, thanks! I may throw this in my pct during my next cycle just to test it out. I definitely wouldn't mind the recomping effect if get happen sloppy on my diet.

 

[mechka_grizli]

Was looking into phosphamuscle but the inclusion of the tart cherry ruins it for me. Was going to stack it with ARA, but the supposed anti inflammatory properties killed that stack

 

[Danes]

Was looking into phosphamuscle but the inclusion of the tart cherry ruins it for me. Was going to stack it with ARA, but the supposed anti inflammatory properties killed that stack

I would deff not worry about that to be honest

 

[mechka_grizli]

I would deff not worry about that to be honest

U saying its not a factor? Everything I found on tart cherry mention anti inflammatory properties

 

[HardB0iled]

U saying its not a factor? Everything I found on tart cherry mention anti inflammatory properties

I think what Danes is saying is that the anti-inflammatory property of tart cherry isn't significant enough to negate the effects of ArA. While it is recommended to avoid NSAIDs, avoiding all anti-inflammatory foods is neither practical nor necessary.

 

[roy_jones]

I noticed Nutraplanet is now stocking bulk PS, which is said to have the same mTOR activating properties. I may end up purchasing some as a test to compare to lecithin granules. Seems like a better way to go.

Hoping Danes sees this and chimes in about whether I'm missing something here...

 

[kbayne]

I noticed Nutraplanet is now stocking bulk PS, which is said to have the same mTOR activating properties. I may end up purchasing some as a test to compare to lecithin granules. Seems like a better way to go.

Hoping Danes sees this and chimes in about whether I'm missing something here...

The mTOR activation from Lecithin Granules is from Phosphatidic Acid, not Phosphatidylserine.

 

[bchap05]

I've gained weight while trying to cut with Fern granuales. Thought maybe I had gained fat but I'm more vascular and girlfriend keeps commenting on my appearance. Muscles look fuller in mirror. Been doing 3 to 4 tbl per workout and on off days. Drinking it with milk or chocolate milk is the GOAT

 

[kbayne]

I've gained weight while trying to cut with Fern granuales. Thought maybe I had gained fat but I'm more vascular and girlfriend keeps commenting on my appearance. Muscles look fuller in mirror. Been doing 3 to 4 tbl per workout and on off days. Drinking it with milk or chocolate milk is the GOAT

Weight gain will be from increased glycogen retention and muscle fullness.

 

[Onefckngear]

So far I'm four days in at four tbsp and my appetite is absolutely bonkers. Is everyone experiencing this increase in insatiable hunger?

Also had some serious long lasting aas like pumps today.

 

[kboxer7]

So far I'm four days in at four tbsp and my appetite is absolutely bonkers. Is everyone experiencing this increase in insatiable hunger?

Also had some serious long lasting aas like pumps today.

The increased appetite is common. For some, as myself, it isn't anywhere near as pronounced as when I first started. I still get a hunger craving, but it isn't as strong and goes away inside of 30min or so.

Regards,

 

[roy_jones]

Anyone seen Danes kicking around? I haven't seen him posting and he usually checks this thread. Hope everything is alright with the dude.

 

[kboxer7]

Anyone seen Danes kicking around? I haven't seen him posting and he usually checks this thread. Hope everything is alright with the dude.

I've seen him post in a couple other threads just the other day. One about Laxogenin....can't remember the other.

 

[ma70]

Anyone seen Danes kicking around? I haven't seen him posting and he usually checks this thread. Hope everything is alright with the dude.

Posted recently about IFN Most Wanted and Laxo the other day. I
He's fine I think...thanks to the health benefits of Phoaphatidic Acid of course.

 

[Danes]

Anyone seen Danes kicking around? I haven't seen him posting and he usually checks this thread. Hope everything is alright with the dude.

I am still here
Everything good here buddy

 

[roy_jones]

I am still here
Everything good here buddy

Glad to hear it- I don't know if you caught my post earlier, but I spotted bulk PS (Phosphatydil Serine) at Nutraplanet and wanted to ask if it would work for us like PA.

 

[Danes]

Glad to hear it- I don't know if you caught my post earlier, but I spotted bulk PS (Phosphatydil Serine) at Nutraplanet and wanted to ask if it would work for us like PA.

I do believe PS is potent like PA(studies are proving that)on mTOR activation and they both go (PS/PA-->LPA-->mTOR).
But if I were you, I would stack SL with bulk PS. More=better. And as you know, there are many good health benefits with PS.

 

[StatePlan1425]

Question for the group (perhaps already addressed in this long @$$ thread): Is anyone concerned about SL possibly being estrogenic? I recall there was one study that implied this possibility.

 

[Danes]

Question for the group (perhaps already addressed in this long @$$ thread): Is anyone concerned about SL possibly being estrogenic? I recall there was one study that implied this possibility.

NO!!!!! 10000000x times no!
SL is NOT rich in phytoestrogens (isoflavones). SL has Maybe trace amount

 

[tyga tyga]

Question for the group (perhaps already addressed in this long @$$ thread): Is anyone concerned about SL possibly being estrogenic? I recall there was one study that implied this possibility.

This will be asked AT LEAST several more times as long as this thread is alive

 

[kboxer7]

This will be asked AT LEAST several more times as long as this thread is alive

Guaranteed Tyga haha. If only I had one can of Fearn for every estro question...

 

[StatePlan1425]

;-) thanks Danes. Laziness on my part. I found the study I was thinking of and you are quite correct. No isoflavones were detected. However, they detected (via Yeast Estrogen Screen) an "unidentified estrogen like compound..."

Sorry guys, more I'm refreshing my memory with this study the more I question their conclusions...

Guess I deserved that good ole AM beat down

 

[kboxer7]

;-) thanks Danes. Laziness on my part. I found the study I was thinking of and you are quite correct. No isoflavones were detected. However, they detected (via Yeast Estrogen Screen) an "unidentified estrogen like compound..."

Sorry guys, more I'm refreshing my memory with this study the more I question their conclusions...

Guess I deserved that good ole AM beat down

NP. We're all just joking about the estro question : ). Its bound to come up for those just checking out SL for a source of PA.

 

[kboxer7]

Danes kbayne

Thoughts on the following......


What I am curious about regarding PA, is if introducing leucine (or protein in general) at the same time has either of the following effects:

a. Combo of leucine + PA increases mTOR to a greater extent (either in peak mTOR activation or duration of mTOR activation) than either solo due to varying mTOR activation pathways

OR

b. Because leucine would have already activated mTOR on its own via its respective pathway, the PA has no additional effect when combined (possible neg feedback or something?), and therefore doses of PA should be separated from does of leucine/protein in order to activate mTOR more times throughout the day.

We do already know that both PA and leucine induced mTOR activation have optimal peaks and refractory periods in which addition of either will not result in any further mTOR activation. Being able to stagger doses of each to keep mTOR reving up more times per day would be sweet.

iirc, leucine induced mTOR activation lasts for est 45min (if leucine supplementation is easily digested...i.e. NOT a slow digesting protein like casein)

So, for example:

Whey Protein shake taken at 12pm activates mTOR for est 45min with a refractory period of I believe 3-4 hours. Before those 4 hours are up one could hit a dose of PA to keep mTOR activated again (for how long PA activates mTOR I"m not 100% certain), and then again at hour 4+ hit another whey shake, etc.


Or am I way off base here lol

 

[Stabsy]

I noticed Nutraplanet is now stocking bulk PS, which is said to have the same mTOR activating properties. I may end up purchasing some as a test to compare to lecithin granules. Seems like a better way to go.

Hoping Danes sees this and chimes in about whether I'm missing something here...

If you were to add this what sort of dosage would you be looking at and is it worth it?

 

[kbayne]

Danes kbayne

Thoughts on the following......


What I am curious about regarding PA, is if introducing leucine (or protein in general) at the same time has either of the following effects:

a. Combo of leucine + PA increases mTOR to a greater extent (either in peak mTOR activation or duration of mTOR activation) than either solo due to varying mTOR activation pathways

OR

b. Because leucine would have already activated mTOR on its own via its respective pathway, the PA has no additional effect when combined (possible neg feedback or something?), and therefore doses of PA should be separated from does of leucine/protein in order to activate mTOR more times throughout the day.

We do already know that both PA and leucine induced mTOR activation have optimal peaks and refractory periods in which addition of either will not result in any further mTOR activation. Being able to stagger doses of each to keep mTOR reving up more times per day would be sweet.

iirc, leucine induced mTOR activation lasts for est 45min (if leucine supplementation is easily digested...i.e. NOT a slow digesting protein like casein)

So, for example:

Whey Protein shake taken at 12pm activates mTOR for est 45min with a refractory period of I believe 3-4 hours. Before those 4 hours are up one could hit a dose of PA to keep mTOR activated again (for how long PA activates mTOR I"m not 100% certain), and then again at hour 4+ hit another whey shake, etc.


Or am I way off base here lol

PA and Leucine do both activate mTOR but through different mechanisms.

Here's a breakdown of PA and mTOR in the introduction:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/11/1/29

And we know leucine activates mTOR which then induces MPS through the S6K signaling pathway.

 

[kboxer7]

PA and Leucine do both activate mTOR but through different mechanisms.

Here's a breakdown of PA and mTOR in the

And we know leucine activates mTOR which then induces MPS through the S6K signaling pathway.

I should have been more clear. I do realize the two different MOAs for each regarding mTOR activation.

My concern/thought/curiosity has me wondering if once the activation of mTOR by leucine has taken place, the addition of PA (even though via a diff MOA) won't matter due to a negative feedback loop (such as that which occurs with the addition of more leucine.

In short, I'm wondering if the body already knows mTOR is activated by leucine...addition of PA causes no further activation if ingested same time as the leucine.

I don't think this was addressed in the research paper (I.e they did not say or did not have the subjects also ingest a post or pre workout whey shake)

Just a thought

Regards,[/QUOTE]




Regards,

 

[Danes]

Danes kbayne

Thoughts on the following......


What I am curious about regarding PA, is if introducing leucine (or protein in general) at the same time has either of the following effects:

a. Combo of leucine + PA increases mTOR to a greater extent (either in peak mTOR activation or duration of mTOR activation) than either solo due to varying mTOR activation pathways

OR

b. Because leucine would have already activated mTOR on its own via its respective pathway, the PA has no additional effect when combined (possible neg feedback or something?), and therefore doses of PA should be separated from does of leucine/protein in order to activate mTOR more times throughout the day.

We do already know that both PA and leucine induced mTOR activation have optimal peaks and refractory periods in which addition of either will not result in any further mTOR activation. Being able to stagger doses of each to keep mTOR reving up more times per day would be sweet.

iirc, leucine induced mTOR activation lasts for est 45min (if leucine supplementation is easily digested...i.e. NOT a slow digesting protein like casein)

So, for example:

Whey Protein shake taken at 12pm activates mTOR for est 45min with a refractory period of I believe 3-4 hours. Before those 4 hours are up one could hit a dose of PA to keep mTOR activated again (for how long PA activates mTOR I"m not 100% certain), and then again at hour 4+ hit another whey shake, etc.


Or am I way off base here lol

I will make it very short.
Leucine and PA works different ways on mTOR activating. Taking Leucine with PA would be even better actually. I have seen a study on that, which i need to dig up

 

[kboxer7]

I will make it very short.
Leucine and PA works different ways on mTOR activating. Taking Leucine with PA would be even better actually. I have seen a study on that, which i need to dig up

Fair enough. If u happen to find that study let me know. I love learning new things : )

I do realize that they both work via diff pathways...just was wondering if a compounding increase in mTOR would occur by taking both, or, no greater mTOR activation than would be had by each solo because mTOR was already activated & there would be a "more x does not equal more y" situation.

Here's to those gains!

Regards,


P.S. Appreciate the feedback Danes kbayne

 

[Danes]

Fair enough. If u happen to find that study let me know. I love learning new things : )

I do realize that they both work via diff pathways...just was wondering if a compounding increase in mTOR would occur by taking both, or, no greater mTOR activation than would be had by each solo because mTOR was already activated & there would be a "more x does not equal more y" situation.

Here's to those gains!

Regards,


P.S. Appreciate the feedback Danes kbayne

PS/PA works via the same pathway. (LPA routhe) , but stacking them would be even better as doctors said. So they would NOT compete for the absorption/bioavailability.

"In contrast to previous studies, the results of the present study demonstrate that leucine does not act through phospholipase D and PA to activate mTORC1 and, instead, show that the two mediators act through parallel upstream signaling pathways to activate mTORC1. Overall, the results demonstrate that leucine and PA signal through parallel pathways to activate mTORC1 and that PA mediates its effect through the ERK pathway, rather than through direct binding to mTOR."

Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427710

i will find another Leucine+PA study where they show more mTOR signaling with those to together than each one alone

 

[kboxer7]

PS/PA works via the same pathway. (LPA routhe) , but stacking them would be even better as doctors said. So they would NOT compete for the absorption/bioavailability.

"In contrast to previous studies, the results of the present study demonstrate that leucine does not act through phospholipase D and PA to activate mTORC1 and, instead, show that the two mediators act through parallel upstream signaling pathways to activate mTORC1. Overall, the results demonstrate that leucine and PA signal through parallel pathways to activate mTORC1 and that PA mediates its effect through the ERK pathway, rather than through direct binding to mTOR."

Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427710

i will find another Leucine+PA study where they show more mTOR signaling with those to together than each one alone

Very well put. Thanks for schooling me Danes : )

 

[Danes]

Very well put. Thanks for schooling me Danes : )

Anytime

 

[kbayne]

Exogenous PA is metabolized to LPA which we know, and LPA works synergistically with Leucine to increase the mTOR pathway.

So like Danes said and liked to his study above, PA + Leucine would actually lead to greater gains.

If you have time, here is a good read:

http://www.ommegaonline.com/form/issues/Effects-of-L-Leucine-and-Phosphatidic-Acid.html

 

[Danes]

Exogenous PA is metabolized to LPA which we know, and LPA works synergistically with Leucine to increase the mTOR pathway.

So like Danes said and liked to his study above, PA + Leucine would actually lead to greater gains.

If you have time, here is a good read:

http://www.ommegaonline.com/form/issues/Effects-of-L-Leucine-and-Phosphatidic-Acid.html

Oooh yes!

 

[kboxer7]

Exogenous PA is metabolized to LPA which we know, and LPA works synergistically with Leucine to increase the mTOR pathway.

So like Danes said and liked to his study above, PA + Leucine would actually lead to greater gains.

If you have time, here is a good read:

ommegaonline. /form/issues/Effects-of-L-Leucine-and-Phosphatidic-Acid. [/url]

Thanks kbayne. I def will give that a read. Appreciate you taking the time to help.

 

[kbayne]

Thanks kbayne. I def will give that a read. Appreciate you taking the time to help.

No problem.