I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

[Danes]

Yea. Glycogenretention. Me too. Weightgain without eating more than I usualy do

 

[jwsnowman]

Just ordered 2lbs of Fearn granules. Gonna start running it in about a month. Looking forward to trying it out and comparing it to the original King.

 

[uubiduu]

Whos the chespest supplier of fearn in Europe btw?

 

[Blergs]

Tyga my man...you really on that low of fat macros?

I try to hit 65+g. Anything less and I can notice a big difference in gains and appearance. Granted, some of that difference is due to fat taking place of carbs in the macros, but I attribute a LOT to greater testosterone production. Studies have shown that low fat diets can reduce test production in normal males by quite a bit. I'm on my mobile but I can dig up some studies later if anyone is interested.

Regards,

#ThemGains

healthy daily fats are definitely very important in diet.
i like high protein med-high fat, med carbs

 

[Danes]

healthy daily fats are definitely very important in diet.
i like high protein med-high fat, med carbs

Totaly agree

 

[halljo]

Maybe I missed it when I did a search but is there any concern about phytoestrogens from SL. I understand how it's made (broken down)... just curious as I know it's a concern with Soy

 

[schizm]

Maybe I missed it when I did a search but is there any concern about phytoestrogens from SL. I understand how it's made (broken down)... just curious as I know it's a concern with Soy

There is no concern about that no....

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

You don't have to tell me. I've ran both PA and especially ArA at different doses and know for the most part a higher dose is more beneficial. And of course ArA at 500mg isn't going to compare to 2 grams lol. But the doses used in studies are 1-1.5 grams, so dosing below that wouldn't make much sense. With PA, studies use 750mg (i know you know) so that's why I said a minimum of 750mg in my previous posts.

But if someone is having to sacrifice fat macros, then they probably should lower their SL dose IMO. Or buy an overpriced PA concentrated product.

Hey bro,

So I'm using Fearn and their serving size is 15g. How much actual PA is that - 1200mg straight up like the label says?

 

[Danes]

Maybe I missed it when I did a search but is there any concern about phytoestrogens from SL. I understand how it's made (broken down)... just curious as I know it's a concern with Soy

Like schizm said, no concern about that.soy lecithin granules has just trace amount(if it has any trace amounts anyway) of isoflavones(phytoestrogens). Nothing to worry about

 

[kbayne]

Hey bro,

So I'm using Fearn and their serving size is 15g. How much actual PA is that - 1200mg straight up like the label says?

It could be anywhere from 5-8% PA. If does contain 8%, then 2 tablespoons (15 grams) will give you 1200mg. But we aren't 100% sure. But I do know Fearn is one of the better brands to go with as it states 97% phosphadtides and is the brand most are using.

 

[fatty]

I've bumped up to 8 tablespoons. Loving it. Fuller, stronger, endurance seems improved. Probably won't go any higher though

 

[Stabsy]

I've bumped up to 8 tablespoons. Loving it. Fuller, stronger, endurance seems improved. Probably won't go any higher though

Crickey thats a lot

 

[kbayne]

I've bumped up to 8 tablespoons. Loving it. Fuller, stronger, endurance seems improved. Probably won't go any higher though

At that high of a dose of SL, it may be worth it to just buy a concentrated product.

One can is lasting you what, 6-7 days?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

At that high of a dose of SL, it may be worth it to just buy a concentrated product.

One can is lasting you what, 6-7 days?

Not really. At that high of a dose, you're essentially absolutely sure that you're getting far more than the 750mg PA you're getting from a concentrated product. A relatively decent number of people, myself included, seem to like 5+ tbsp of the lecithin granules more than 750mg from a concentrated product. While the daily price of PA from granules at a high enough dose may eventually be comparable to that of a concentrated product, the amount of PA you're getting will be significantly greater. As long as you can fit the extra calories and fat into your diet, don't get an upset stomach, and don't mind the minor inconvenience of the granules, you're much better off going with the granules, IMO.

 

[fatty]

At that high of a dose of SL, it may be worth it to just buy a concentrated product.

One can is lasting you what, 6-7 days?

3lb jug. 181 servings. Little over 3 weeks. Would be too expensive taking such a high dose of a concentrated product.

 

[kbayne]

Not really. At that high of a dose, you're essentially absolutely sure that you're getting far more than the 750mg PA you're getting from a concentrated product. A relatively decent number of people, myself included, seem to like 5+ tbsp of the lecithin granules more than 750mg from a concentrated product. While the daily price of PA from granules at a high enough dose may eventually be comparable to that of a concentrated product, the amount of PA you're getting will be significantly greater. As long as you can fit the extra calories and fat into your diet, don't get an upset stomach, and don't mind the minor inconvenience of the granules, you're much better off going with the granules, IMO.

Yeah true. Actually totally spaced the PA content in say Fearn compared to the concentrated products.

And yes, I am dosing 5 tbsp a day of Fearn.

 

[kbayne]

3lb jug. 181 servings. Little over 3 weeks. Would be too expensive taking such a high dose of a concentrated product.

Yeah I wasn't even comparing the PA dose. I fudged up lol

 

[kboxer7]

5 tbsp a day here as well (some days 6).

For anyone interested, I'm over a month in to SL and I've continued to see benefits.

For the sake of simplicity let's say I'm operating near maintenance calorie wise and I've still managed to increase muscle measurements as well as reduce fat (mirror check only, but it's most certainly noticeable).

Weight initially went up about 2 lbs but now has dropped about 1lb. Lifts are all up and muscle size has increased...go figure.

I started my summer recomp about a month late for my intended goals, but after including SL I'm looking like I'll hit that July deadline I set for myself after all.

Looking forward to pool season...or rather bikini season haha

EDIT ON DOSING PROTOCOL:

I'm doing 2tbsp with breakfast. 3 pre workout (night), and 1-2 post wkout

 

[abformulations]

Wow 8? That must be amazing. I'm at 5 and a can only lasts 11 days at that dose.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

5 tbsp a day here as well (some days 6).

For anyone interested, I'm over a month in to SL and I've continued to see benefits.

For the sake of simplicity let's say I'm operating near maintenance calorie wise and I've still managed to increase muscle measurements as well as reduce fat (mirror check only, but it's most certainly noticeable).

Weight initially went up about 2 lbs but now has dropped about 1lb. Lifts are all up and muscle size has increased...go figure.

I started my summer recomp about a month late for my intended goals, but after including SL I'm looking like I'll hit that July deadline I set for myself after all.

Looking forward to pool season...or rather bikini season haha

EDIT ON DOSING PROTOCOL:

I'm doing 2tbsp with breakfast. 3 pre workout (night), and 1-2 post wkout

In regards to your weight dropping a pound or two but size and strength continuing to increase, according to Fearn's label, each tbsp of the granules contains 225mg choline, so 5-6 tbsp would give you 1.125-1.35g choline per day. There is one interesting study:

Effect of Choline Supplementation on Rapid Weight Loss and Biochemical Variables Among Female Taekwondo and Judo Athletes

Twenty-two female athletes (15 taekwondo) and (7 judo) from different weight categories participated in this double-blind clinical trial, which was conducted in 2011. The athletes were divided into two groups, according to their body mass; the experimental group contained ten female athletes, and the control group twelve female athletes. At the time of enrollment, all the subjects were healthy, according to a medical information questionnaire, and none of the subjects had any specific dietary restrictions. Exclusion criteria included the use of any medication or supplement during the previous six months. For one week prior to a competition, the athletes in the experimental group took choline tablets (1.0 g) twice daily with a meal, equaling a total daily dose of 2.0 g. The control group received a placebo, and they participated in usual training (with 75% training intensity) at the same time as the choline group four times per week.

According to Anni et al. (2011), choline supplementation appears to be safe and the authors recommend taking approximately 2.5 g one hour before a prolonged exercise session. The effective dose in sport studies is 0.2 g phosphatidylcholine 90% per kg of the body mass, which equals 2.1 g of choline for an 80-kg athlete. There is no requirement for a loading or maintenance phase and choline supplementation up to one hour before exercise has been shown to be effective in reducing fatigue.

In conclusion, choline supplementation could rapidly reduce body mass without any side effects on biochemical levels or static strength.

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Hmmm, been using 2 tbsp for months now (all pre-workout and off days too). Might give it a go to try 3 tbsp now after reading about more benefits + the choline benefits ^ above

 

[HardB0iled]

Why screw around? Go for 5+ tbsp. when I bumped from 3 to 5, I noticed a difference. The only problem was 5 tablespoons PWO made me a little queasy. Today I took 3 with lunch and 3 PWO with no problems. Maybe coincidence, but hit PRs tonight on reps on all lifts.

 

[fatty]

Wow 8? That must be amazing. I'm at 5 and a can only lasts 11 days at that dose.

What problems happen at 11 days? GI upset?

 

[ELROCK]

What problems happen at 11 days? GI upset?

Thats how long it takes to finish a SL tub when dosed at 5 tbs a day.

 

[tyga tyga]

I emailed Swanson to ask about PA content of their product. This was there response :

All they did was reiterate what the label shows on their bottle

 

[kbayne]

I emailed Swanson to ask about PA content of their product. This was there response :View attachment 120091

All they did was reiterate what the label shows on their bottle

Ya that's what most products state beside Fearn and Optima.

That's why I would at least grab a product that states 95% + phosphatides.

 

[schizm]

Another one to add is Puritian's Pride...95% phosphatides. Both Swanson and VC told me they were going to get with their manf to see about getting their % analysis...fwiw

 

[warpyfunch]

Anyone know if any of the good stuff in soy lecithin degrades from heat? Can I mix a couple tbsp into my oatmeal for example?

 

[ELROCK]

Anyone know if any of the good stuff in soy lecithin degrades from heat? Can I mix a couple tbsp into my oatmeal for example?

Apparently, the pa content does degrade in heat.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Natures Plus also states its posphatide content is in the 95-98% range.

According to Dr. Stout, the PA content of foods significantly diminishes with cooking. What this means for adding soyl granules to heated food like oats I dunno.

 

[machinehead]

I emailed Swanson to ask about PA content of their product. This was there response

All they did was reiterate what the label shows on their bottle

Yet their sunflower lecithin label cites PA

Each 15 gram serving contains:

Phosphatidylcholine 3.7 grams

Phosphatidylethanolamine 1.6 grams

Phosphatidyl Inositol 2.7 grams

Phosphatidic Acid 0.9 grams

Linoleic Acid 3.9 grams

 

[TheFugitive]

Thats how long it takes to finish a SL tub when dosed at 5 tbs a day.

I'm sticking to my black caps

 

[warpyfunch]

I'd get in the SL about 30-60 min prior to the workout to activate mTOR via PA.

Ok so, previously I'd been putting 4 tbsp granules into my 32oz water bottle and sipped it intra-workout, but on your suggestion I've been trying to take those 4 tbsp an hour pre-workout instead. Unfortunately, I've discovered that chugging that much is bothering my stomach and making me feel kinda crappy before I get to the gym. Any suggestions? What do you think the minimum pre-workout dosage would be to effectively activate mTOR? Would 1 tbsp pre-workout, with 3 tbsp intra be ok? 2 tbsp pre, 2 tbsp intra? Any other suggestions people have learned from experience to deal with stomach discomfort from granules?

 

[Chefdeez]

I don't understand why people are dosing so high with SL. All the studies showed results at 700mg of PA. If something is proven to work at that dose why are people taking 5-6x that dose? People seem to be obsessed with immediate results. Seems like a waste to me but that's my opinion.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I don't understand why people are dosing so high with SL. All the studies showed results at 700mg of PA. If something is proven to work at that dose why are people taking 5-6x that dose? People seem to be obsessed with immediate results. Seems like a waste to me but that's my opinion.

Not necessarily. The researchers who have been doing the main studies into PA's MoA and effects on resistance trainees were emailed by Danes and they said, based on their studies, they think higher doses (doses greater than those used in the study) could lead to increased benefits.

 

[Chefdeez]

Not necessarily. The researchers who have been doing the main studies into PA's MoA and effects on resistance trainees were emailed by Danes and they said, based on their studies, they think higher doses (doses greater than those used in the study) could lead to increased benefits.

Fair point but you could say that about almost any performance enhancing substance

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Fair point but you could say that about almost any performance enhancing substance

I think something else to keep in mind here is that the dose in the study was Mediator, so you can be pretty confident you are getting a specific amount of PA with that dose. The granules, though, have a fairly large possible PA content range, as none of the granule products are standardised for PA content. The upshot is most folk want to be sure they are getting sufficient PA, so its probably wise to dose according to the low-medium range (5-7% from memory).

But yeah, some people are dosing well in excess of the study. To call this a 'waste' though, well, I guess thats up to the individual to decide (if they believe they experience increased benefits, then great, no?)

 

[Chefdeez]

I think something else to keep in mind here is that the dose in the study was Mediator, so you can be pretty confident you are getting a specific amount of PA with that dose. The granules, though, have a fairly large possible PA content range, as none of the granule products are standardised for PA content. The upshot is most folk want to be sure they are getting sufficient PA, so its probably wise to dose according to the low-medium range (5-7% from memory).

But yeah, some people are dosing well in excess of the study. To call this a 'waste' though, well, I guess thats up to the individual to decide (if they believe they experience increased benefits, then great, no?)

Yup. For me I noticed benefits at 2 tbsp so I don't fee the need to increase dosage. When the results fade, maybe?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Yup. For me I noticed benefits at 2 tbsp so I don't fee the need to increase dosage. When the results fade, maybe?

Thats how i approached dosing the granules myself. I didnt particularly wish to jump in at 5tbsp, but work up over time if i saw fit (and to experiment).

The results shouldnt fade, as such (I shouldnt think). Rather, over time a new baseline will be set.

 

[Danes]

Thats how i approached dosing the granules myself. I didnt particularly wish to jump in at 5tbsp, but work up over time if i saw fit (and to experiment).

The results shouldnt fade, as such (I shouldnt think). Rather, over time a new baseline will be set.

This.
It will not fade, actually longer using is more benedicial

 

[Danes]

Yup. For me I noticed benefits at 2 tbsp so I don't fee the need to increase dosage. When the results fade, maybe?

The studies are showing benefits with 750mg PA too, but more would be even better. So it is your choice if you want to get even better results with PA

 

[Danes]

Not necessarily. The researchers who have been doing the main studies into PA's MoA and effects on resistance trainees were emailed by Danes and they said, based on their studies, they think higher doses (doses greater than those used in the study) could lead to increased benefits.

Yes its true.
They said they have data supporting higher doses are even better.that means they saw more benefits with higher PA doses.
Ofcourse they needed to play with different doses to find out a ok dose which can be beneficial. They didnt think "hey, lets just go for 750mg and see how it goes". It is calculation etc.

Like I said before, no one would buy mediator PA product if it was suggested to take 2-4g daily with the price its now.
Chemi Nutra like other conpanies are interessed in money but they was thinking smart. Study/studies do prove it works with 750mg daily, but that does NOT mean its more than enough. We are different. Someone need MUCH more than 750mg while some other are getting pretty good gains even with "just"750mg.

If the money is not the issue, I would say (like Dr.Wilson said). 3g PA or more would be much more beneficial than 750mg used in studies1

 

[abformulations]

Fair point but you could say that about almost any performance enhancing substance

Try a higher dose then get back to us

 

[ma70]

Here's how I see it:

1. 2 tbsp can be anywhere from 600 to 1200mg PA. Instead of "risking" having less PA than the study, I'd rather just make sure I've got the right amount. This stuff is DIRT CHEAP anyway.
2. Its not just the PA, but these are healthy fats with lots of goodies in them. I like being healthy and these fit my macros just fine.

Of course, this is just me....

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Here's how I see it:

1. 2 tbsp can be anywhere from 600 to 1200mg PA. Instead of "risking" having less PA than the study, I'd rather just make sure I've got the right amount. This stuff is DIRT CHEAP anyway.
2. Its not just the PA, but these are healthy fats with lots of goodies in them. I like being healthy and these fit my macros just fine.

Of course, this is just me....

Is your first part really accurate? 2 tbsp of Fearn soy lecithin can contain 600-1200mg PA?

 

[ma70]

Is your first part really accurate? 2 tbsp of Fearn soy lecithin can contain 600-1200mg PA?

Soy Lecithin granules are standardized from 4-8% and nobody knows the exact value for all of the various brands as far as I know...so yes.

 

[Chefdeez]

Is your first part really accurate? 2 tbsp of Fearn soy lecithin can contain 600-1200mg PA?

Fearn has 1200 mg PA per 2 tbsp

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Fearn has 1200 mg PA per 2 tbsp

This is according to kbayne: "It could be anywhere from 5-8% PA. If does contain 8%, then 2 tablespoons (15 grams) will give you 1200mg. But we aren't 100% sure. But I do know Fearn is one of the better brands to go with as it states 97% phosphadtides and is the brand most are using. "

So ma70 you are right. 2 tbsp Fearn can contain anywhere from 750 - 1200mg PA.

 

[Danes]

Fearn has 1200 mg PA per 2 tbsp

Are you 100% sure?
Optima SL (if reading the label) should have 12.38% PA. But Optima answered to MuscleUpC. About % of PA in their granules. It was 4-7 % if I remember right.

 

[Chefdeez]

Are you 100% sure?
Optima SL (if reading the label) should have 12.38% PA. But Optima answered to MuscleUpC. About % of PA in their granules. It was 4-7 % if I remember right.

Of course there's no way to know what's in it for sure but according to the label yes.