Topical 7-Keto

[Liftergym33]

7-Keto DHEA is a safer and more potent form of DHEA, the well-known "mother hormone", a substance known to ameliorate the effects of aging on many body functions. 7 Keto is NOT DHEA. It is a natural metabolite of DHEA meaning that our bodies eventually convert DHEA into 7 Keto DHEA in the skin and kidneys before going on to fortify us.

Summary of 7-Keto's actions and benefits:

Helpful in reducing body fat for safe weight loss

Strengthens immune function

Helps balance thyroid function

Enhances the liver enzyme catalase

Enhances IGF-1 (Growth Hormone) hormone production

Improves cognitive function and enhances memory

May be helpful in Alzheimer's disease

Helpful for overcoming insulin resistance in type II diabetes

Relieves depression

Has anti-aging benefits

Helps lower stress-induced high blood pressure and may be beneficial for other heart-related diseases.

Increases muscle mass

Eases inflammatory conditions like lupus and arthritis

May help prevent HIV wasting

May be advantageous in helping to fight Parkinson's disease

Boosts energy and relieves fatigue

Prevents skin from wrinkling

Fights allergic reactions

Helpful for Asthma

Perhaps the most fundamental difference between DHEA and 7 Keto DHEA is that 7 Keto DHEA is already converted DHEA, thus it will NOT dangerously spike estrogen and testosterone as does old fashioned DHEA. In fact, studies have shown that "Old Fashioned" DHEA can raise blood levels of testosterone by much as 10 times above normal.

Since 7-Keto does not convert into testosterone or estrogens, it is a one-hundred percent safe alternative to its parent compound. (Elevated testosterone can put beards on women's faces or cultivate prostate cancer in men. Moreover, high levels of testosterone may convert into estrogen in men. Women taking regular DHEA should be especially aware of the possibility of clitoral enlargement, and voice lowering).

7 Keto is non-toxic. Liver and blood hormone levels have shown it to be "Completely innocuous," says Henry Lardy, Chairman Emeritus of the Enzyme Institute at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. "No-one has found any adverse side effects."

7 Keto DHEA has been proven to promote greater weight loss than DHEA. One clinical trial published in the Journal of Exercise Physiology Online looked at 30 obese people who took a placebo or 7-KETO, a commercial version of 7 Keto that's sold as a food supplement. Both groups took three one-hour sessions of aerobic and anaerobic exercise per week. At the end of the eight-week study, the 7-KETO group had lost 1.8 percent of body fat, compared to 0.57 percent among the placebo exercisers. Their overall weight loss was 2.88 kilos, about three times the loss among those who took the placebo.

There are signs that 7 Keto DHEA helps the body loose weight by mimicking thyroid hormones which cause the body to make more heat, thus burning more calories without really doing anything. Quite simply this means that by increasing thyroid enzymes it is a thermogenic.

7 Keto lends greater support to the immune system by increasing IL-2 production in human lymphocytes. IL-2 is the key cytokine regulator of T-helper cells which helps activate the immune system against invading pathogens.

7 Keto helps to reduce cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone associated with stress as well as chronic mood disorders and aging.

7-Keto DHEA is more potent than DHEA. Anyone suffering any serious disease or hormonal condition should only use DHEA under competent medical supervision. On the other hand, 7 Keto may be effective at doses as low as 5-10 mg/per day with 25-50 mgs per day being adequate for use in disease treatment under medical supervision.


Sources:
Alternative Medicine Advisor, August 1999.
Journal of Exercise Physiology; Vol. 2. No.4; October 1999.
Miller WC Int Jobes Relat Matab Discord21 (10): 941-947, 1997.
Bobyleva V. Arch Biochem Biophys 341 (1): 122-128, 1997
Slhalian, Ray, M.D.,DHEA: A Practical Guide, 1996 The American Journal of Psychiatry, (157) 1252-59, August, 2000
Heinerman, John, Ph.D.,Miracle Healing Herbs, Prentice Hall, 1998

 

[Jbrooks]

So based on your understanding and research 7-Keto does not lower test and or free test ?

 

[MAxximal]

So based on your understanding and research 7-Keto does not lower test and or free test ?

here`s a great article about The Testosterone Cortisol Connection i posted some time ago

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/129774-testosterone-cortisol-connection.html

 

[Jbrooks]

here`s a great article about The Testosterone Cortisol Connection i posted some time ago

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/129774-testosterone-cortisol-connection.html

Ok now I'm officaly confused this is saying lowering Cortisol as does 7 oxo/keto does it will increase test. Yet the other study shows a decrease in test

Can you clarify ?

 

[nattydisaster]

So based on your understanding and research 7-Keto does not lower test and or free test ?

Lowering cortisol, IN GENERGAL, should raise testosterone/cort ratio. There are a number of products and ways to lower cortisol.

Topical 7-keto-DHEA lowers testosterone and free testosterone. Carved into stone in the study I posted.

 

[3clipseGT]

This stuff looks to be awesome! Cant wait to give it a go and get it out so we can get some good reviews goin on this bad boy!

 

[Liftergym33]

Lowering cortisol, IN GENERGAL, should raise testosterone. There are a number of products and ways to lower cortisol.

Topical 7-keto-DHEA lowers testosterone and free testosterone. Carved into stone in the study I posted.

So many things out there lower test, can this lower it? its possibly, and possibly not. not different then green tea and its weight loss benefits.. studies show that decreases test, but some studies show it raises it, wont stop me from using it!

Hell, Looking at fat chicks decreases test!:lol:

 

[Liftergym33]

This stuff looks to be awesome! Cant wait to give it a go and get it out so we can get some good reviews goin on this bad boy!

Josh, seriously, very effective! you'll see brotha

 

[3clipseGT]

Josh, seriously, very effective! you'll see brotha

Thats what im talking about! :biggthumpup:

 

[Liftergym33]

Thats what im talking about! :biggthumpup:

I just sprayed down!.. what i love is, how fast it dries..so bad ass:arms:

 

[nattydisaster]

So many things out there lower test, can this lower it? its possibly, and possibly not. not different then green tea and its weight loss benefits.. studies show that decreases test, but some studies show it raises it, wont stop me from using it!

Hell, Looking at fat chicks decreases test!:lol:

Theres not a possibility here...there is a study done on humans on transdermal 7-keto decreasing testosterone. More important than the decrease in T and the raise in SHBG.

Find one that shows it doesnt have a negative effect on T or SHBG and then your argument is valid

Not trying to go against the product, it is what it is...your statement basically just says "studies on humans dont really mean anything"

It is a good product, IF you know what you are doing with it. it is great for a recomp and solid for cortisol. But you shouldnt be telling people that it wont effect your testosterone or that they should use it in PCT (not saying you did). Taking it in PCT would be extremely counterproductive

 

[Liftergym33]

Theres not a possibility here...there is a study done on humans on transdermal 7-keto decreasing testosterone. More important than the decrease in T and the raise in SHBG.

Find one that shows it doesnt have a negative effect on T or SHBG and then your argument is valid

Not trying to go against the product, it is what it is...your statement basically just says "studies on humans dont really mean anything"

I'll reiterate my statement in a different term so its not reworded or taken out of context, I said! Its possibly to lower test, was that missed? I commented on GT also, to a point in ..Its whats important at the time of running a product.

 

[nattydisaster]

I'll reiterate my statement in a different term so its not reworded or taken out of context, I said! Its possibly to lower test, was that missed? I commented on GT also, to a point in ..Its whats important at the time of running a product.

I was just saying its not a possibility, it is a fact:

At the doses in the product, even:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15843221&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/2001/issue1/pdf/sulcova.pdf

 

[nattydisaster]

The decreases in testosterone and increases and SHBG are not going to produce any type of serious negative effects IMO. I just think it should be known to the users of the product that it shouldnt be taken in PCT.

I know a lot of people like to take other cort blockers like LX in PCT. This shouldnt be taken in PCT. Thats all...

Maybe even suggest a T booster with it.

 

[3clipseGT]

As im always trying to learn more and of course help other people down the road. Why do most suggest them in PCT? Simply because they do help with cortisol?

Also since these are stated to decrease test, when would be a good time to implement them back into a regimine? Say 4 weeks after PCT is started? 6 weeks?

Also to control cortisol during PCT what could one run if they were concerned? I know EndoAMP from Primordial is a good one, any others really?

I have my own ideas, and i feel kind of like a newb asking these questions, but i always love to hear others opinions!

 

[nattydisaster]

As im always trying to learn more and of course help other people down the road. Why do most suggest them in PCT? Simply because they do help with cortisol?

Also since these are stated to decrease test, when would be a good time to implement them back into a regimine? Say 4 weeks after PCT is started? 6 weeks?

Also to control cortisol during PCT what could one run if they were concerned? I know EndoAMP from Primordial is a good one, any others really?

I have my own ideas, and i feel kind of like a newb asking these questions, but i always love to hear others opinions!

Since cortisol spikes in PCT, people like to take cortisol blockers in PCT, since coritsol is catabolic.

I would wait until 2 weeks after PCT to start topical 7-keto.

EndoAmp is great if you are looking for cortisol reduction during PCT. Their suggested dose is dead on

I would use topical 7-keto on cycle, or off cycle. Just not in PCT

 

[Liftergym33]

Theres not a possibility here...there is a study done on humans on transdermal 7-keto decreasing testosterone. More important than the decrease in T and the raise in SHBG.

Find one that shows it doesnt have a negative effect on T or SHBG and then your argument is valid

Not trying to go against the product, it is what it is...your statement basically just says "studies on humans dont really mean anything"

It is a good product, IF you know what you are doing with it. it is great for a recomp and solid for cortisol. But you shouldnt be telling people that it wont effect your testosterone or that they should use it in PCT (not saying you did). Taking it in PCT would be extremely counterproductive

I see you keep adding to old posts of yours so i just want to clarify something. and If i come off the Wong way then I apologize in advance,

You are correct, as i never went back and changed any of my post unlike your doing and doing a piss poor way of trying to manipulate my words.

I posted something about the product, you posted one study.. I said, and I truly quote "

So many things out there lower test, can this lower it? its possibly, and possibly not. not different then green tea and its weight loss benefits.. studies show that decreases test, but some studies show it raises it, wont stop me from using it!

Hell, Looking at fat chicks decreases test!:lol:

Do I think your study is FACT? no, I do not, why? because to my knowledge and research there isn't a whole lot of studies using this in humans. if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but those are my thoughts.

 

[nattydisaster]

Did you click the links I posted?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15843221&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/2001/issue1/pdf/sulcova.pdf

 

[nattydisaster]

I just didnt want anyone misinformed. Anyways, carry on

 

[Liftergym33]

Did you click the links I posted?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15843221&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/2001/issue1/pdf/sulcova.pdf

I just didnt want anyone misinformed. Anyways, carry on

Yes, I clicked on them. your doing allot to stand out and say I misinformed people, but the true FACT <---- is, i never did

Im reading this also... im i reading this wrong??

30 overweight (BMI 31.9 plusnm; 6.2) adults (Age 44.5 plusmn; 11.5) were randomized into a prospective, double-blind, placebo controlled eight week study. Fifteen subjects received 7-Keto' 100 mg twice per day whereas the other 15 subects received a matching placebo. All subjects exercised three times per week, 60 minutes per session of cross-training (aerobic and anaerobic) under the supervision of an exercise physiologist. The exercise plus 7-Keto' group lost a significant amount of body weight as compared with the exercise plus
joshua_barreiro: plus placebo group (-2.88 kg, p=0.012). In terms of actual body composition changes, the exercise plus 7-Keto' group lost 1.8% body fat as compared to 0.57% for the placebo group (p=0.02).In terms of effects on the thyroid, triiodothyronine (T3) activity increased significantly in the group receiving 7-Keto and not the placebo (+ 17.8 8 ng/dl vs. 2.75 ng/dl; p<0.05), there were no significant changes in either TSH or T4. There were no significant changes in blood sugar, testosterone, estradiol, liver, renal function tests, vital signs, or overall caloric intake over the eight week study . Nor were there any subjective adverse effects reported throughout the study.

 

[nattydisaster]

Yes, I clicked on them. your doing allot to stand out and say I misinformed people, but the true FACT <---- is, i never did

Im reading this also... im i reading this wrong??

30 overweight (BMI 31.9 plusnm; 6.2) adults (Age 44.5 plusmn; 11.5) were randomized into a prospective, double-blind, placebo controlled eight week study. Fifteen subjects received 7-Keto' 100 mg twice per day whereas the other 15 subects received a matching placebo. All subjects exercised three times per week, 60 minutes per session of cross-training (aerobic and anaerobic) under the supervision of an exercise physiologist. The exercise plus 7-Keto' group lost a significant amount of body weight as compared with the exercise plus
joshua_barreiro: plus placebo group (-2.88 kg, p=0.012). In terms of actual body composition changes, the exercise plus 7-Keto' group lost 1.8% body fat as compared to 0.57% for the placebo group (p=0.02).In terms of effects on the thyroid, triiodothyronine (T3) activity increased significantly in the group receiving 7-Keto and not the placebo (+ 17.8 8 ng/dl vs. 2.75 ng/dl; p<0.05), there were no significant changes in either TSH or T4. There were no significant changes in blood sugar, testosterone, estradiol, liver, renal function tests, vital signs, or overall caloric intake over the eight week study . Nor were there any subjective adverse effects reported throughout the study.

That study is not done on topical 7-keto-dhea. Topical makes a big difference in its effects.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/colker2.pdf

 

[Liftergym33]

That study is not done on topical 7-keto-dhea. Topical makes a big difference in its effects.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/colker2.pdf

I didn't think there would be a huge change from oral to topical7-keto-dhea,

how does one allow test to drop, and the other doent affect it?

 

[nattydisaster]

I didn't think there would be a huge change from oral to topical7-keto-dhea,

how does one allow test to drop, and the other doent affect it?

The skin carries a number of important enzymes of steroidogenesis. An example of all of these enzymes can be seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg

Odds are, the topical 7-keto-DHEA is having some type of mild competitive interaction with androstenedione on 17b-hydroxy steroid dehydrogenase. This would cause a slight drop in testosterone. This enzyme is found in the skin in good amounts. This would explain why this would only happen in the transdermal.

Many of the recent prohormones, including some of the ones Primordial used to sell, were sold as transdermals since certain enzymes are found in high amounts in the skin. This allows the prohormone a better chance to convert to the active steroid.

With the drop in testosterone from competitive inhibition, the HPTA is going to act to try to create more testosterone. It does this by releasing more LH from the anterior pituitary, to stimulate the leydig cells to produce more testosterone in the testes.

This could explain why in the study an decrease in T was found, and an increase in LH was found. The decrease in E is likely due to the decrease in T, less T to convert to E via the aromatase enzyme.

 

[JudoJosh]

Im confused.. maybe someone can clear this up..

So the claim is that 7-keto will reduce cortisol BUT will also redcue testosterone correct?

But isn't Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione (Erase) a 7-keto dhea metabolite?

So wouldn't the same apply to erase?

:dunno: Note I am not a chemist Im just tryna use some logic and figure this out

 

[nattydisaster]

Im confused.. maybe someone can clear this up..

So the claim is that 7-keto will reduce cortisol BUT will also redcue testosterone correct?

But isn't Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione (Erase) a 7-keto dhea metabolite?

So wouldn't the same apply to erase?

:dunno: Note I am not a chemist Im just tryna use some logic and figure this out

Transdermal/Topical 7-keto lowers cortisol and testosterone. The oral form does not.

Erase is a 7-keto metabolite yes, taken orally. It is a much different compound with very different effects. Look at DHEA compared to 7-keto. Completely different compounds with a great deal of different effects.

Erase is a metabolite of 7-keto, and has AI properties. 7-keto doesnt have AI properties. They are all very different (DHEA, 7-keto, Erase)

Only topical, not oral, 7-keto has shown a decrease in T

 

[JudoJosh]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11300231

The above study is all I can find on TOPICAL applications on 7-keto so you are baseing you "fact" off of a SINGLE study that was conducted on only 10 people?

The problem with this debate is that to me appears to be a very weak case.

The way I view science is there are NO facts only theories (hell even gravity is considered a theory and not a fact) What is considered true today can just as easily be disproven tomorrow. Science is forever changing and evolving. To state something so difinitively as you are and your only source being a single study that was conducted on 10 people seems a little disingenuous to me.

Futhermore, the study you posted above while it does show a decrease in total testosterone, doesnt it also show an increase in free testosterone?

Not sure the mechanism in which it reduces T, or raises SHBG. Im sure the loss on T is from some type of competition on an enzyme, so not anything you could do there.

No idea about how to combat the SHBG increase...maybe nettle root?

The 7-keto may be competitively inhibiting the 17b-HSD, which could prevent the adione from converting to test at its normal rate. Could be why there is a slight decrease in testosterone levels.

Wouldnt simply supplementing with a testerone booster counteract this test drop? I mean this product isnt really marketed as a muscle builder but a fat loss product.

If anything on our 7-KE page the FAQ staes:

Perhaps the most fundamental difference between DHEA and 7 Keto DHEA is that 7 Keto DHEA is already converted DHEA, thus it will NOT dangerously spike estrogen and testosterone as does old fashioned DHEA. In fact, studies have shown that "Old Fashioned" DHEA can raise blood levels of testosterone by much as 10 times above normal.

So we really arent trying to CON people into thinking it will raise test.
And again this is marketed as a fat loss product not a muscle builder.

Also, I dont get why the subject of PCT is even being brought up?

It is a good product, IF you know what you are doing with it. it is great for a recomp and solid for cortisol. But you shouldnt be telling people that it wont effect your testosterone or that they should use it in PCT

Who said this should be used in PCT? Did a TN rep say this? Maybe I missed it but I didnt see any Taurus rep suggesting this to be used as part of a PCT so why are you suggesting that we were advocating its use in that manner?

I think the FIRST mention of PCT was by you..

And probably shouldnt use it IN PCT

Anyway, I think its wrong to state that something is a "fact" or "carved in stone"

Topical 7-keto-DHEA lowers testosterone and free testosterone. Carved into stone in the study I posted.

Science is forever changing and as I said before what may be thought to be true today can easily be disproven tomorrow. Gravity is still considered a theory and not a fact so how is the potential that 7-keto may lower testosterone a "fact"?




maybe it is a competitive inhibitor of 17b-hsd. if so, then its possible b-aet is an inhibitor as well in the opposite direction (towards oxidation of 17-b OH) which then would mean the two would cancel one another out

 

[nattydisaster]

Dude...I have posted 2 studies now, 3 times:

Did you click the links I posted?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15843221&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/2001/issue1/pdf/sulcova.pdf

If that is a weak case to you, then idk. 2 studies showing it decreases testosterone vs 0 studies showing it does not...To me that is very good evidence.

Dont turn this thread into a thread about science in general and your personal definition of science just to defend the point I made...if you think all science is theory and studies dont mean much, thats your take.

A lot of members on this board like myself enjoy science and progressively understanding biochemical mechanisms of compounds sold as dietary supplements based on research. Everyone here loves education, that is why I spend most of my time here, and all I was doing here was trying to educate.

The study does not show an increase in free testosterone. It shows a ~25% decrease in free testosterone and an increase in SHBG, which makes sense by there is a decrease in free testosterone. The drop in total T will also lower free testosterone.

Taking a test booster could prevent it. If you read all of my posts in here you would see I recommended taking a test booster with it. I also said that 11% decrease isnt anything to worry about either unless one was in PCT

I never once said you guys were trying to con people into thinking it will raise test. I was talking about 7-keto transdermally/topically. Doesnt your product contain more than just this ingredient? This thread was started forever ago asking if AM members would be interested in topical 7-keto

PCT was brought up because it is common for people to take cortisol reducers in PCT. Since 7-keto is commonly is marketed to reduce cortisol in pill form, I felt it should be noted that it should not be used for cortisol in PCT since it reduces testosterone, even for a long period of time after stopping use in the transdermal application. This would be counter productive to restoring full HPTA function.

Again...I have been speaking about 7-keto used transdermally this whole time. It has been made for years in the past, and there are others currently on the market that have been around for a few months. You guys got all defensive out of nowhere.

As for your comment in 17b-HSD and other ingredients, Having another compound act competitively on the enzyme will only lower T even further, unless the enzymes has multiple subtypes like in 11b-HSD.

In fact, in the PubMed study in your last post, I took a look at the full text, and the decrease in testosterone was found to be concurrent with an increase in the 17-OH epimer. This validates my original theory about action on 17b-HSD when used transdermally. I would copy and past it but the c/p function is locked on the studies site.

I am not posting in this thread anymore. I was trying to provide education on an ingredient to AM members, like I to everyday in many threads. I dont know why it had to turn into an argument.

I think topical 7-keto DHEA is a great product to upregulate thyroid and burn fat, and works especially well when coupled with its hydroxylated counterpart, 7b-hydroxy-DHEA. This is a great recomposition cortisol lowering thyroid upregulated combination.

It just should not be used during PCT for those looking for cortisol suppression during PCT. On cycle or off cycle it would be very effective. And the BEST way to use 7-keto IS TOPICALLY. It has poor bioavailability orally, or so many people say.

You by no means need to worry about the T lowering effects of topical 7-keto, you just need to know that they occur.

Just like 11-oxo tablets. They are great for cortisol suppression when used at a high dose (expensive). But it can lower testosterone when on it. The maker of an 11-oxo product will be the first to tell you. But its nothing to worry about

 

[Milas]

I know how TN can abate the problem, put test or 4AD in the product. That's a product I'd buy!

Really, no need to get feathers ruffled here, the 7-KE looks like a great and effective product, no one is arguing that. It's just a little side effect that is being brought to light, just so people know and can plan. As Natty pointed out, this effect is not going to make a whole lot of difference in a cut/recomp, the primary cortisol and thyroid effects will be much more pronounced.

 

[Liftergym33]

Alright - So theres only 24 bottles left!! and you can still get these at 29$ which was our TN launch price! prices on this and the Wyked will be going back to normal soon!

Get it while you can!

http://taurus-nutrition.com/

 

[Liftergym33]

I know how TN can abate the problem, put test or 4AD in the product. That's a product I'd buy!

Really, no need to get feathers ruffled here, the 7-KE looks like a great and effective product, no one is arguing that. It's just a little side effect that is being brought to light, just so people know and can plan. As Natty pointed out, this effect is not going to make a whole lot of difference in a cut/recomp, the primary cortisol and thyroid effects will be much more pronounced.

Id buy it too!..no feathers getting ruffed... just stopping words from being put into my mouth.. but thats over

 

[nattydisaster]

$20 for wyked...holy sh!t thats a deal!

 

[JudoJosh]

$20 for wyked...holy sh!t thats a deal!

:biggthumpup:

 

[thebigt]

$20 for wyked...holy sh!t thats a deal!

but i think fri is the last day.........better order some quick.irate:

 

[bluebelle07]

Hi,
I've just received my bottle of 7-KE topical spray in the mail (via Taurus Nutrition) and there is NO dosing or application instructions printed on the bottle, which is pretty bizarre!
No clue how many sprays to apply and/or how many mg is in each spray. Can you please help?
Thanks!!

 

[Machmood]

This will prob seem like a dumb question but here goes. The main reason topical 7 keto works is its ability to decrease cortisol, ok. .. There are tons of products out there that can do this... LX and Erase to name a few. I know everyone is saying they act differently, but the end result is still the same yes?? Lowering cortisol... So what makes this product superior? ?? I was wondering this when debating using ERASE or LX. . . if they both lower cortisol but erase ALSO lowers estrogen then why the hell wouldnt you jsut use ERASE?? can anyone clear this up fo rme?

 

[MAxximal]

This will prob seem like a dumb question but here goes. The main reason topical 7 keto works is its ability to decrease cortisol, ok. .. There are tons of products out there that can do this... LX and Erase to name a few. I know everyone is saying they act differently, but the end result is still the same yes?? Lowering cortisol... So what makes this product superior? ?? I was wondering this when debating using ERASE or LX. . . if they both lower cortisol but erase ALSO lowers estrogen then why the hell wouldnt you jsut use ERASE?? can anyone clear this up fo rme?

Topical 7-keto lowers cortisol on adipose tissue

 

[Rosie Chee]

Hi,
I've just received my bottle of 7-KE topical spray in the mail (via Taurus Nutrition) and there is NO dosing or application instructions printed on the bottle, which is pretty bizarre!
No clue how many sprays to apply and/or how many mg is in each spray. Can you please help?
Thanks!!

Use 6 sprays (25 mg 7-keto in 6 sprays) twice daily - best applied after a shower (i.e. am and pm).

This will prob seem like a dumb question but here goes. The main reason topical 7 keto works is its ability to decrease cortisol, ok. .. There are tons of products out there that can do this... LX and Erase to name a few. I know everyone is saying they act differently, but the end result is still the same yes?? Lowering cortisol... So what makes this product superior? ?? I was wondering this when debating using ERASE or LX. . . if they both lower cortisol but erase ALSO lowers estrogen then why the hell wouldnt you jsut use ERASE?? can anyone clear this up fo rme?

You cannot compare 7-KE and Erase. Aside from the obvious difference of 7-KE being a topical and Erase being capsulated, 7-KE is 7-keto, whereas Erase is 3,7-keto - different compounds, although both help decrease cortisol. 7-KE is more for just cortisol control, whereas Erase has many other effects, including AI properties and boosting total and free testosterone. For the best all-round effects, stack them together, IMO.

~Rosie~

~Rosie~

 

[Patrick Arnold]

3,7-keto is actually a misleading nickname that has been used to describe the compound androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione. This compound, has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor in-vitro. This compound has NEVER been shown to be anti-cortisol or to share any of the unique properties that dhea metabolites such as 7-keto dhea have. I dont know where rhe makers of Erase came up with this as I have studied this compound thoroughly and i see no basis for this claim

 

[monstermash]

3,7-keto is actually a misleading nickname that has been used to describe the compound androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione. This compound, has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor in-vitro. This compound has NEVER been shown to be anti-cortisol or to share any of the unique properties that dhea metabolites such as 7-keto dhea have. The makers of Erase seem to have made that up with no basis

Wow, tuned in for response. opcorn:

 

[DAdams91982]

3,7-keto is actually a misleading nickname that has been used to describe the compound androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione. This compound, has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor in-vitro. This compound has NEVER been shown to be anti-cortisol or to share any of the unique properties that dhea metabolites such as 7-keto dhea have. I dont know where rhe makers of Erase came up with this as I have studied this compound thoroughly and i see no basis for this claim

Actually when we released it we said plain as day that the anti-cort effect were simply theory without anything to back that up 100%. I personally did saliva tests as per The Matrix recommendation and saw a decline with a 4 test average. But again, like I said, we blatantly said it was complete theory.

Then stepped in russianstar, another chemist who said the Anti-Cort effects were the only pronounced effect and the Anti-E effects were minimal. Everyone has their own take on different compounds.

So everyone can take it for what it is.

 

[bluebelle07]

Use 6 sprays (25 mg 7-keto in 6 sprays) twice daily - best applied after a shower (i.e. am and pm).


~Rosie~

Thanks so much for the reply, Rosie!! I read your review on the product (great, in-depth and clear--nice job!) and am curious to see if I will need to up the dosage as well, being female with naturally more adipose fat (particularly in the hips/thighs area). I've actually started with 12 sprays in the morning and plan on applying another 12 at night.
I am stacking the 7-KE Topical with USP Labs Recreate (capsule form, low-stim thermogenic). Just started both together. Any thoughts?
Will keep you all posted!!

 

[nattydisaster]

3,7-keto is actually a misleading nickname that has been used to describe the compound androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione. This compound, has been shown to be an aromatase inhibitor in-vitro. This compound has NEVER been shown to be anti-cortisol or to share any of the unique properties that dhea metabolites such as 7-keto dhea have. I dont know where rhe makers of Erase came up with this as I have studied this compound thoroughly and i see no basis for this claim

I never have called or will call the compound 3,7-keto DHEA. It is a terrible name for the compound and does not even make sense. Ive said this from the start.

It says right in our writeup on NP that there is no data supporting the claim of cortisol. It has instead has anecdotally showed the effects.

The Erase compound has shown to have a Ki value of .22 mM in-vitro on aromatase w/ irreversible binding, and the reason we released it was for its AI effects

Topical 7-keto lowers cortisol on adipose tissue

Technically that would mean topical 7-keto decreases lipolysis then, since cortisol actually stimulates lipolysis. I personally would not want to decrease cortisol just in adipose tissue.

People want to lower coritsol to help preserve muscle breakdown when cutting fat fast or in PCT

Actually when we released it we said plain as day that the anti-cort effect were simply theory without anything to back that up 100%. I personally did saliva tests as per The Matrix recommendation and saw a decline with a 4 test average. But again, like I said, we blatantly said it was complete theory.

Then stepped in russianstar, another chemist who said the Anti-Cort effects were the only pronounced effect and the Anti-E effects were minimal. Everyone has their own take on different compounds.

So everyone can take it for what it is.

this

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Actually when we released it we said plain as day that the anti-cort effect were simply theory without anything to back that up 100%. I personally did saliva tests as per The Matrix recommendation and saw a decline with a 4 test average. But again, like I said, we blatantly said it was complete theory.

Then stepped in russianstar, another chemist who said the Anti-Cort effects were the only pronounced effect and the Anti-E effects were minimal. Everyone has their own take on different compounds.

So everyone can take it for what it is.

I do take it for what it is. Which is why i find myself often having to step in and correct people when they claim the compound has this cortisol manipulating behavior. There is no evidence beyond chemical structural similarities, and as someone who is well versed in steroid chemistry and pharmacology I dont consider this sufficient cause to believe there is a good chance it acts the same

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Technically that would mean topical 7-keto decreases lipolysis then, since cortisol actually stimulates lipolysis. I personally would not want to decrease cortisol just in adipose tissue.

Yes

But cortisol also stimulates adipocyte proliferation.Which means it can increase the amount of fat cells. So its complicated.

My suspicion is that the adipocyte proliferation becomes a problem with chronic exposure to cortisol, while lipolysis happens quickly in acute instances of cortisol elevation.

Bottom line, when you weigh it all out, you will have less fat if you reduce cortisol concentrations in adipose tissue over time

 

[nattydisaster]

Yes

But cortisol also stimulates adipocyte proliferation.Which means it can increase the amount of fat cells. So its complicated.

My suspicion is that the adipocyte proliferation becomes a problem with chronic exposure to cortisol, while lipolysis happens quickly in acute instances of cortisol elevation.

Bottom line, when you weigh it all out, you will have less fat if you reduce cortisol concentrations in adipose tissue over time

Good to know

 

[Rosie Chee]

Thanks so much for the reply, Rosie!! I read your review on the product (great, in-depth and clear--nice job!) and am curious to see if I will need to up the dosage as well, being female with naturally more adipose fat (particularly in the hips/thighs area). I've actually started with 12 sprays in the morning and plan on applying another 12 at night.
I am stacking the 7-KE Topical with USP Labs Recreate (capsule form, low-stim thermogenic). Just started both together. Any thoughts?
Will keep you all posted!!

12 sprays twice daily is adequate and should be fine for you. You don't need to up the dosage - I did that re personal preference and also specific to me since I generally have high cortisol levels; it had nothing to do with being a female.

I've never used Recreate and never will - there are far better fat burners and products that can be used for fat loss, IMO.

As far as using products for fat loss, if you're a beginner to training or are higher than ~15% bodyfat, then I don't recommend using supplements aside from the basic staples (I consider 7-KE a "staple", and since it's also a topical, it's ok to use, although I do recommend a few weeks just doing the basics first, since you will make a lot of progress just starting out) - instead, make sure that your NUTRITION AND TRAINING are targeted at fat loss specific for YOU.

~Rosie~

 

[TN_Travis]

Im so glad Taurus kept this !

 

[Rosie Chee]

Im so glad Taurus kept this !

It's on the third run - for the now, the LAST run, so if you haven't got any yet, then get it before you can't.

~Rosie~

 

[Liftergym33]

It's on the third run - for the now, the LAST run, so if you haven't got any yet, then get it before you can't.

~Rosie~

Correct, i think this is the last and final run....time to stock pile!

 

[tnubs]

anyone know how long the bottle of taurus' 7-ke spray will last at 12 sprays a day?