Topical 7-Keto

Milas said:
Would you notice a visual/aesthetic difference with 7-Keto?
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If you think Buddha Belly is attractive, then don't worry about VAT. If you would rather have a tapered look (as well as health improvement) definitely handle your VAT issues first.
 
dsade said:
If you think Buddha Belly is attractive, then don't worry about VAT. If you would rather have a tapered look (as well as health improvement) definitely handle your VAT issues first.
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Are you planning on using the same Gel #3 carrier? maybe slightly more carbomer! :D

And if so, when can I expect my Christmas stocking to be filled?
 
DAdams91982 said:
Are you planning on using the same Gel #3 carrier? maybe slightly more carbomer! :D

And if so, when can I expect my Christmas stocking to be filled?
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I played with 10 different carbomers. The Benzyl Alcohol in gel#3 just doesn't gel up well at all.

I will be using the same localized carrier, but I might try and see if the methylcellulose and/or the polycacrylate I use in Eviscerate work to thicken it more.
 
dsade said:
I played with 10 different carbomers. The Benzyl Alcohol in gel#3 just doesn't gel up well at all.

I will be using the same localized carrier, but I might try and see if the methylcellulose and/or the polycacrylate I use in Eviscerate work to thicken it more.
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You can add rat turds if you wish... as long as the basic matrix is used count me in... I even have no problem with the same ol watery texture, worked beautifully.
 
DAdams91982 said:
You can add rat turds if you wish... as long as the basic matrix is used count me in... I even have no problem with the same ol watery texture, worked beautifully.
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One of my favorite products, eally...and one of the ones that drew me to work at Avant.

Now I feel bad, though, derailing LG's thread.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Most definitely. Cortisol is a leading factor in accruing VAT fat, hence the effectiveness of 7-Keto. Basically if you can pinch your stomach/love handle and feel the fat, go for the eviscerate.
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I can always pinch, but really shouldn't I use the jiggle test like Homer? :lol:

dsade said:
If you think Buddha Belly is attractive, then don't worry about VAT. If you would rather have a tapered look (as well as health improvement) definitely handle your VAT issues first.
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Hmmm... I'll have to look into picking up some of this LG 7-keto transdermal.

Quick question on VAT, is the transdermal going to be more effective than oral 7-keto or supplements like Lean Extreme.
 
Milas said:
I can always pinch, but really shouldn't I use the jiggle test like Homer? :lol:



Hmmm... I'll have to look into picking up some of this LG 7-keto transdermal.

Quick question on VAT, is the transdermal going to be more effective than oral 7-keto or supplements like Lean Extreme.
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I personally have never received near the same results from LX that I have from topical 7-Keto.
 
Milas said:
I can always pinch, but really shouldn't I use the jiggle test like Homer? :lol:



Hmmm... I'll have to look into picking up some of this LG 7-keto transdermal.

Quick question on VAT, is the transdermal going to be more effective than oral 7-keto or supplements like Lean Extreme.
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Lean Xtreme is pretty badass, but I would not put it in the same realm as TD 7-keto. Oral 7-keto has almost zero availability...don't waste your money.
 
DAdams91982 said:
I personally have never received near the same results from LX that I have from topical 7-Keto.
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I personally didn't get much from LX...

dsade said:
Lean Xtreme is pretty badass, but I would not put it in the same realm as TD 7-keto. Oral 7-keto has almost zero availability...don't waste your money.
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TD 7-Keto looks like a winner then...

LG, need a beta tester? :sgrin:
 
Liftergym33 said:
I'll be looking for Testers..;).. I can be bought with a bag of skittles..:lol:
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I have a sack right here...but it's sure not filled with skittles.
 
Liftergym33 said:
I'll be looking for Testers..;).. I can be bought with a bag of skittles..:lol:
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You got it, PM me your addy... :silly:

Trick or treat? :party:
 
schizm said:
m&m's? doooode, if that's the case, hope your sack isn't exposed to prolonged heat...otherwise, that could get mess-y! ;)
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Actually, I think they only melt in your mouth.

BOO-YAH!
 
Soooo this is why when i cup my sack with my hand nothing happens.. :sad3:
Noowwww i get the; "They melt in ur mouth, not in ur hand"..where is my woman at!!!
 
DAdams91982 said:
Par Deus of Avant labs had a bunch of info of why stacking the two was a bad idea, and to instead rotate the products. It has been years since reading his stuff, but the man was brilliant.
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I never had a problem with it, and I actually stack ALL my topicals now - makes them last longer, and I get the best of both products. But, each to their own.


DAdams91982 said:
I personally have never received near the same results from LX that I have from topical 7-Keto.
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The original Lean Xtreme was great - the reformulated one isn't effective for me. Defintiely prefer topical 7-keto DHEA re cortisol control.


Liftergym33 said:
I'll be looking for Testers...we should see something as early as next week guys!
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You know I'm down, Chris :)

~Rosie~
 
I agree. I never could understand why they incorporated their "extended release technology" into the product. Effective doses of 5-AT and 7-Keto (or 7-OH) need to be delivered as quickly as possible, especially the first dose in the morning. The earlier versions were great, though.

Rosie Chee Scott said:
The original Lean Xtreme was great - the reformulated one isn't effective for me. Defintiely prefer topical 7-keto DHEA re cortisol control.


~Rosie~
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DAdams91982 said:
VAT fat is surrounding the organs and not likely to contribute much to the love handle area. Love handles are all SAT fat, which Eviscerate attacks nicely.

Be aware that the VAT fat is the dangerous fat.

I miss Ab-Solved.
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DAdams91982 said:
I remember one thing Par Deus stated, was the carrier for SAT fat attacking products must be Hydropholic and for VAT it must be Lipopholic (Maybe I have it backwards, cant remember) and that stacking the two would cause competition at the dermis and render each product much less effective than if utilizing them separate.
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dsade said:
We're talking right now about bringin back a limited run of Absolved.

The problem with stacking is that metabolically active tissue can only "process" so much free fatty acids at one time...best to tackle VAT issues (as you pointed out, a dangerous fatty deposit around organs) first then worry about SAT as you get leaner.
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So this is why you stated following up with Eviscerate would be the way to go correct? Good info on the VAT/SAT.. So would the 7-keto target the VAT fat then? or do I have it backwards? Ive never used any topical product, never really had to.. but it wouldn't hurt to trim a little from the lower waist section and take a peek at the lower Ab's:D
 
dsade said:
7-keto, in my experience, is highly effect at VAT reduction only - but it is dramatic.

I would highly recommend this for anyone with a waist circumference over 35 inches and/or a bodyfat level over 18%. I would then follow up the rapid VAT loss with a run of Eviscerate. You should easily be able to drop 7-8% bodyfat rapidly when combined with a good systemic fat burner.
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MAxximal said:
This true
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MidwestBeast said:
After reading this, I would absolutely love to run a round of topical 7-keto and follow it up with the Eviscerate...sounds incredibly impressive.
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Liftergym33 said:
I'll be looking for Testers..;).. I can be bought with a bag of skittles..:lol:
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Well if u need a fat tester look no further. I have plenty of strength but as u can see I also have plenty of VAT fat. Want to get down to 205 for my next cycle in January(could be postponed if need be). Currently hoovering around 223-225.



I might even become ballsy enough to post before and after pics(at the end if it works :lol:)
 
Liftergym33 said:
Im not sure whats bigger?? your 675lb deadlift or dsade's arms!!
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Haha I think he arms got me beat. I cant wait to put up the video when I get 700. Hopefully it will be at a lighter weight which is y Id love to try this. Tried Eviscerate but honestly I had too much VAT fat. I wouldnt mind getting into powerlifting but dont want to be all belly.
 
Tomahawk88 said:
Well if u need a fat tester look no further. I have plenty of strength but as u can see I also have plenty of VAT fat. Want to get down to 205 for my next cycle in January(could be postponed if need be). Currently hoovering around 223-225.

I might even become ballsy enough to post before and after pics(at the end if it works :lol:)
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Tom would be an awesome test subject!

Make him a skinny ass so I can catch up on the DL's!
 
Milas said:
Tom would be an awesome test subject!

Make him a skinny ass so I can catch up on the DL's!
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Haha see dont make me get a goon squad to start begging for me :lmao: Oh and just so u know bro Im thinking my plan for my next cycle is Superdrol bridged to Phera with either 4-AD UTT or Dermacrine TD as a test base :sgrin: So expect some crazy deadlift number. Realistically speaking 725 shouldnt be out of the question but 750 wouldnt be turned down.

Milas said:
Those arms are damn epic...
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I know right makes me jealous. Fack a deadlift just give me some guns :lol:
 
Liftergym33 said:
So this is why you stated following up with Eviscerate would be the way to go correct? Good info on the VAT/SAT.. So would the 7-keto target the VAT fat then? or do I have it backwards? Ive never used any topical product, never really had to.. but it wouldn't hurt to trim a little from the lower waist section and take a peek at the lower Ab's:D
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Yes.

VAT fat resides actually below the muscle tissue of the abdomen, binding around the internal organs. VAT fat can be seen with people who have the prototypical "Beer" belly. VAT actually pushes the muscles forward as well and causes the belly to protrude out. Cortisol is the hormone responsible for causing weight gain around the midsection, predominantly VAT fat, 7-Keto cuts down the cort and the body begins releasing the fatty acids contained with the VAT fat around the organs. In the past I have used 7-Keto topicals and found them extremely effective, the correct carrier can deliver the 7-Keto lipopholically into fat causing suppression of 11beta-HSD-1 cutting down the cortisone to cortisol conversion. Cortisone is harmless, as opposed to cortisol. Which in turn the body begins burning the VAT at a pretty good pace, especially if paired with a good thermogenic.

When you waist is small, but looking soft still, it is time for the eviscerate to attack the subcutaneous fat (SAT - Below the skin), this is when you would start shredding.

7-Keto for slimming the waist line and gaining the V-Taper

Eviscerate is for Shredding the soft look

Also, one reason Topical 7-Keto was a 1000x more effect as per par deus was that you have to bypass the liver, which a lipopholic carrier did.
 
I like what I keep hearing about this and really want to get my hands on some.
 
Liftergym33 said:
Rosie, just curious.. I seen your competition photos which looked fantastic! what is your BF% and what are you looking to get to? major kudos to you :thumbsup:
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I differ re opinion on my competition pics, but eh . . . I was ~8% bodyfat for it and holding water and other stuff - thinking closer to 9% bodyfat and ~8.6~ bodyfat more likely. I was looking at getting to 7% bodyfat, but readjusted to a more maintainable 8-9% bodyfat recomp. I'm currently between 9-9.5%. Ongoing body statistics are in my log, http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/163701-revolution-female-terminator.html.

~Rosie~
 
Sounds like this would be best for people with higher body fat % trying to get to the optimal body fat range. IE me preparing for my next cycle lol. Alright I will shut up now just a little stimmy from my preworkout time to go hit the weights(notice I didnt say iron :()
 
Tomahawk88 said:
Sounds like this would be best for people with higher body fat % trying to get to the optimal body fat range...
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You'll find differing opinions on that. Also depends on what you call "higher body fat %" - anything around the average sex body compositions can be considered "high".

IMO, individuals with a LOWER body composition will benefit from topicals best, because when you get to a certain level of bodyfat it gets harder to get leaner and any extra help one can get makes a difference - I know I definitely notice the difference more when I go from 9% bodyfat to 8% bodyfat, than if I go from ~12% bodyfat to 9% bodyfat re look (the latter is more of a comfortability, "feel" factor difference).

~Rosie~
 
DAdams91982 said:
Yes.

VAT fat resides actually below the muscle tissue of the abdomen, binding around the internal organs. VAT fat can be seen with people who have the prototypical "Beer" belly. VAT actually pushes the muscles forward as well and causes the belly to protrude out. Cortisol is the hormone responsible for causing weight gain around the midsection, predominantly VAT fat, 7-Keto cuts down the cort and the body begins releasing the fatty acids contained with the VAT fat around the organs. In the past I have used 7-Keto topicals and found them extremely effective, the correct carrier can deliver the 7-Keto lipopholically into fat causing suppression of 11beta-HSD-1 cutting down the cortisone to cortisol conversion. Cortisone is harmless, as opposed to cortisol. Which in turn the body begins burning the VAT at a pretty good pace, especially if paired with a good thermogenic.

When you waist is small, but looking soft still, it is time for the eviscerate to attack the subcutaneous fat (SAT - Below the skin), this is when you would start shredding.

7-Keto for slimming the waist line and gaining the V-Taper

Eviscerate is for Shredding the soft look

Also, one reason Topical 7-Keto was a 1000x more effect as per par deus was that you have to bypass the liver, which a lipopholic carrier did.
Click to expand...

:You_Rock_Emoticon: Very good information, thank you!

What would you consider a good thermogenic?
 
DAdams91982 said:
Yes.

VAT fat resides actually below the muscle tissue of the abdomen, binding around the internal organs. VAT fat can be seen with people who have the prototypical "Beer" belly. VAT actually pushes the muscles forward as well and causes the belly to protrude out. Cortisol is the hormone responsible for causing weight gain around the midsection, predominantly VAT fat, 7-Keto cuts down the cort and the body begins releasing the fatty acids contained with the VAT fat around the organs. In the past I have used 7-Keto topicals and found them extremely effective, the correct carrier can deliver the 7-Keto lipopholically into fat causing suppression of 11beta-HSD-1 cutting down the cortisone to cortisol conversion. Cortisone is harmless, as opposed to cortisol. Which in turn the body begins burning the VAT at a pretty good pace, especially if paired with a good thermogenic.

When you waist is small, but looking soft still, it is time for the eviscerate to attack the subcutaneous fat (SAT - Below the skin), this is when you would start shredding.

7-Keto for slimming the waist line and gaining the V-Taper

Eviscerate is for Shredding the soft look

Also, one reason Topical 7-Keto was a 1000x more effect as per par deus was that you have to bypass the liver, which a lipopholic carrier did.
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Well Put DAdams! thanks:D
 
LG Sciences said:
Does anyone have any interest in a topical 7-Keto DHEA and 7-OH-Etiocholanolone product? Both are good cortisol blockers etc...


The difference is that 7-OH-Etiocholanolone should be more of a fat burner than 7-Keto DHEA, but both are great for that purpose.
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do you have any references for 7-OH-Etiocholanolone and cortisol?
 
Actually there aren't a lot of references for eticholanolone in general and I don't know of any for the 7-OH version. Like so many things the theory is sound.

Additionally, etiocholanolone has a few papers showing it to be a much better fat burner than it's DHEA counterpart, so it stands to reason that the 7-OH version would have similar activity.
 
LG Sciences said:
Actually there aren't a lot of references for eticholanolone in general and I don't know of any for the 7-OH version. Like so many things the theory is sound.

Additionally, etiocholanolone has a few papers showing it to be a much better fat burner than it's DHEA counterpart, so it stands to reason that the 7-OH version would have similar activity.
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I figured your explanation would be something along these lines.
 
LG Sciences said:
Actually there aren't a lot of references for eticholanolone in general
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i dunno about that man. i would consider 1802 alot



Results for Search Question:
RN: 53-42-9
these search terms for future use

1802 answers in CAplus
1802 total hits
[Hide Database Info.]
 
Antiobesity effects of etiocholanolones in diabetes (db), viable yellow (Avy), and normal mice.

Coleman DL.
Abstract

Two metabolites of the adrenal steroid dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), 3 alpha-hydroxyetiocholanolone and 3 beta-hydroxyetiocholanolone, were found to have antiobesity properties with respect to both prevention of the development of obesity as well as weight reduction after obesity was established. All of the obesity types studied responded to metabolite therapy to a greater or lesser extent. The more natural obesity seen in certain strains of mice with aging responded most rapidly to the feeding of either metabolite. The effective dosage (0.1%) fed in the diet was only one quarter the dosage required for DHEA to produce the same effect in preventing diabetes symptoms in C57BL/Ks diabetic (db) mutant mice. Unlike DHEA, neither metabolite produced any undesirable estrogenic or androgenic side-effects. 3 alpha-hydroxyethiocholanolone and 3 beta-hydroxyetiocholanolone, formerly considered only as inert end products of steroid metabolism, have beneficial actions in mice with various diabetes-obesity conditions and may be metabolic effectors in their own right.
 
Production rates of cortisol in obesity.

Vierhapper H, Nowotny P, Waldhäusl W.

Clinical Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine III, Währinger Gürtel 18-20, A-1090 Wien, Austria. [email protected].
Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To determine the metabolic clearance rates (MCRs) and endogenous production rates (PRs) of cortisol (F) in grades 2 and 3 obese men (n = 9) and women (n = 6).

RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: The MCRs and the endogenous PRs of cortisol (F) were determined in grades 2 and 3 obese men (n = 9) and women (n = 6) using the stable isotope dilution technique and mass spectrometry.

RESULTS: In obese women, endogenous PRs of F (0.6 +/- 0.4 mg/h) were similar to those of nonobese women, but MCRs of F were higher in obese women (9 +/- 4 L/h) compared with nonobese women (5 + 2 L/h; p < 0.05). The MCR of F was correlated with the ratio of excreted cortisone to F metabolites. Furthermore, obese women were characterized by an increased ratio of androsterone to etiocholanolone (p < 0.01). In obese men, the MCRs (11 +/- 6 L/h) and the endogenous PRs of F (0.6 +/- 0.3 mg/h) were both similar to those of nonobese men, but the MCR of F was directly correlated with the ratio of excreted cortisone to F metabolites (r = 0.7833, p = 0.012).

DISCUSSION: These data demonstrate sex-specific differences in F metabolism in obesity. The rise in MCRs of F is more pronounced in obese women than in men. However, the increase in the MCR of F is moderate in both genders and exceeds the normal range only in a subgroup of obese individuals.
 
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