The 2012 bug is catching on!

[AE14]

Haha, ok, well what about walking on water? In the middle of the sea during a storm no less!

I have a degree in physics AE, and I still can't find an equation to explain that one away.

no, just the plagues as Moses led the "exodus" from Egypt.

 

[AE14]

Of course! An even better example AG.

I'm not aware of any other religious leader that even claimed he could do this, much less say that he would resurrect himself in a specific time-frame and then actually do it. People say that all religions are the same, and Christ seems no greater than any other religious icon, but to me this is what really separates Christ from the rest. I mean, who else has stated that they hold the keys of life and death?! Jesus Christ.

Take a further look into the stories and legends behind:

1. Horus
2. Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
3. Mithras

Much of the Jesus story originates here

Also, just do a search on origins of the Jesus story it is quite eye opening

In terms of the ressurecton, there is an interesting take on it in the Qu'ran.

 

[Rodja]

Take a further look into the stories and legends behind:

1. Horus
2. Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
3. Mithras

Much of the Jesus story originates here

Hercules and Jesus also have many parallels. The Christian creation myths are just that: myths.

 

[schwellington]

Jesus did hate religion- he corrected the Jewish teachers so much calling them on their lies and posing-


I am not into religion- I am into Jesus- thats it for me- I dont go to Church- why? I dont like constrainments upon me- I read my Bible and have my own personal relationship with God- if I have questions i go to several trusted fellow Christians and discuss it with them


this is THE Great Debate- it will never end period- it is also impossible to prove Gods existence- it is also impossible to disprove Gods existence


More and more scientist are pointing to the idea of a creative intellegence behind the universe saying- this is the only way- they are not saying God or Jesus- just that there is something out there-- in the end I want to love others as My God has loved me- unconditionally without any exceptions and whole heartedly


Final words- True Christianity is not about ritual- its simply about Love

 

[schwellington]

Take a further look into the stories and legends behind:

1. Horus
2. Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
3. Mithras

Much of the Jesus story originates here

Also, just do a search on origins of the Jesus story it is quite eye opening

In terms of the ressurecton, there is an interesting take on it in the Qu'ran.

Not true- research further- there are not enough written records of these things if i am correct

 

[AE14]

Jesus did hate religion- he corrected the Jewish teachers so much calling them on their lies and posing-


I am not into religion- I am into Jesus- thats it for me- I dont go to Church- why? I dont like constrainments upon me- I read my Bible and have my own personal relationship with God- if I have questions i go to several trusted fellow Christians and discuss it with them


this is THE Great Debate- it will never end period- it is also impossible to prove Gods existence- it is also impossible to disprove Gods existence


More and more scientist are pointing to the idea of a creative intellegence behind the universe saying- this is the only way- they are not saying God or Jesus- just that there is something out there-- in the end I want to love others as My God has loved me- unconditionally without any exceptions and whole heartedly


Final words- True Christianity is not about ritual- its simply about Love

You are correct. According to the writings about Jesus, he never liked religion, nor did he try to create one.

Reps to you good sir, for a very open and honest approach

 

[schwellington]

i may not be though i havent researched it extensivly either

 

[AE14]

Not true- research further- there are not enough written records of these things if i am correct

There is quite abit, specifically about Horus. The discussion about Zep Tepi (the first time) when the Egyptian gods dwelled here is very thought provoking. Look into the birth of Horus and his miracles.

The Egyptians were miraculous record keepers.

 

[Flaw]

I mean, who else has stated that they hold the keys of life and death?! Jesus Christ.

"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." - John 6:67-68

Offer me something better then eternal life and I'll hear you out otherwise all that science has proved is that we are destined to the grave. Live for something... or die for nothing. Can't take your riches to the grave with you, neither will you be able to look back at what you've achieved in the this world when your dead. Simple choice Dr. D?

 

[schwellington]

There is quite abit, specifically about Horus. The discussion about Zep Tepi (the first time) when the Egyptian gods dwelled here is very thought provoking. Look into the birth of Horus and his miracles.

The Egyptians were miraculous record keepers.

Yes- I will not claim knowledge on something I havent researched! To do so would be ignorance- and thank you for the reps- I am glad we can have a civil discussion even though we dont agree!


I have done a little smidgeon of research on the parallel between Christ and others born of virgins- this is what I myself have come up with

A. There are SOME similarities- but they are very generalized
B. Predictions about Christ where made 600 years before He was born- He fulfilled every single one- the messianic prophecies are what these are
C. There are external refernces to Jesus Christ in History- even the Koran mentions Him
D. On the resurection- people said someone came and stole Christs body

Not possible here is why
A.HUGE Boulder blocked the way into his tomb
B. The most elite warriors (the romans) where charged with gaurding his tomb
c.They would have without a doubt noticed that someone was moving a boulder aside



So its simply this- there (in my mind) are three possiblities for who Jesus Christ is

A.- A mad man
B. A liar
C. The Son of God


my .02 here gents!

 

[DR.D]

Take a further look into the stories and legends behind:

1. Horus
2. Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
3. Mithras

Much of the Jesus story originates here

Also, just do a search on origins of the Jesus story it is quite eye opening

In terms of the ressurecton, there is an interesting take on it in the Qu'ran.

The only thing I have issue with, is your presumption of origins. The "jesus story" originated with Jesus himself, not prior to him. If it bears an uncanny resemblance to older, less verifiable myths, then that is indeed interesting and has profound implications if you ask me, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate Jesus.

Like I've said, I think the prior stories were more likely planted by ancient and opposing principalities to confuse and emulate the truth that was to come. Counterfeits basically, to cast doubt on prophesy, and it's worked beautify it seems.

 

[AE14]

Yes- I will not claim knowledge on something I havent researched! To do so would be ignorance- and thank you for the reps- I am glad we can have a civil discussion even though we dont agree!


I have done a little smidgeon of research on the parallel between Christ and others born of virgins- this is what I myself have come up with

A. There are SOME similarities- but they are very generalizedKinda interesting considering Horus by most accounts is several thousands of years before. Heck, the similarities with the life of the Buddha is astonishing, and he was 500 years prior to Jesus
B. Predictions about Christ where made 600 years before He was born- He fulfilled every single one- the messianic prophecies are what these areanother interesting issue for me. By all account Jesus was a Rabbi/OT teacher, so he would know these prophecies quite well. Makes you think....
C. There are external refernces to Jesus Christ in History- even the Koran mentions HimTake a look at what it says about him and the crucifixion. Very interesting
D. On the resurection- people said someone came and stole Christs body

Not possible here is why
A.HUGE Boulder blocked the way into his tombthis has always interested me, why did the Mary's come to address his body with lotions if the boulder was there?
B. The most elite warriors (the romans) where charged with gaurding his tomb
c.They would have without a doubt noticed that someone was moving a boulder aside



So its simply this- there (in my mind) are three possiblities for who Jesus Christ is

A.- A mad man
B. A liar
C. The Son of God
There could be other options. I have no doubt that a person of jesus' stature existed. Pliny the younger wrote of him and christianity. However, the divinity aspect to jesus imo is unfounded and there is more incontrovertble proof against it than there is supporting it

my .02 here gents!

See the above bolded

 

[DR.D]

Hercules and Jesus also have many parallels. The Christian creation myths are just that: myths.

Don't be so sure Rodja! You've know me for a long time bro, and you know I wouldn't step out on this limb without reason. Keep an open mind.

 

[AE14]

The only thing I have issue with, is your presumption of origins. The "jesus story" originated with Jesus himself, not prior to him. If it bears an uncanny resemblance to older, less verifiable myths, then that is indeed interesting and has profound implications if you ask me, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate Jesus.

Like I've said, I think the prior stories were more likely planted by ancient and opposing principalities to confuse and emulate the truth that was to come. Counterfeits basically, to cast doubt on prophesy, and it's worked beautify it seems.

No offesne D, but that is a tad too convienent for me. To be honest, look into the end of the Egyptian empire, and see that much of their history was killed off and destroyed by the newly Christian Roman empire. I also must disagree with the less verifiable statement.

At the end of the day, it is just as plausable, that the Jesus story was taken from other sources as a political tool for Constantine at both Nicea and Hippo in the 4th century as a way to unify the empire

 

[DR.D]

"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." - John 6:67-68

Offer me something better then eternal life and I'll hear you out otherwise all that science has proved is that we are destined to the grave. Live for something... or die for nothing. Can't take your riches to the grave with you, neither will you be able to look back at what you've achieved in the this world when your dead. Simple choice Dr. D?

Yeah, real simple!

So if I'm wrong, I just die and never know any better because my existence ends. I lived a good life and I'm none the worse for it.

OR... it really is true, life is eternal, and we do have to face an eternal judge upon death who will grade our living choices? It seems like a no-brainer to me, lol. At the very least, all atheists should sincerely consider that it may be true, whether they're comfortable with that or not. Then, if you decide it's not, so be it, and you can die in confidence either way. But only a fool fails to consider it personally, because the stakes are too high to be ignored.

I mean, we are here. Why? There must be some reason, it's just an existential simplicity that should ring true with all organisms. What if life really is important, and we are supposed to discover than inherent significance? I think it's easier to just blow it off and go to the bar, so most guys take that path of least resistance and sell their lives short.

 

[AE14]

Yeah, real simple!

So if I'm wrong, I just die and never know any better because my existence ends. I lived a good life and I'm none the worse for it.

OR... it really is true, life is eternal, and we do have to face an eternal judge upon death who will grade our living choices? It seems like a no-brainer to me, lol. At the very least, all atheists should sincerely consider that it may be true, whether they're comfortable with that or not. Then, if you decide it's not, so be it, and you can die in confidence either way. But only a fool fails to consider it personally, because the stakes are too high to be ignored.

I mean, we are here. Why? There must be some reason, it's just an existential simplicity that should ring true with all organisms. What if life really is important, and we are supposed to discover than inherent significance? I think it's easier to just blow it off and go to the bar, so most guys take that path of least resistance and sell their lives short.

Just trying to be clear D, are you saying the nontheists should believe just to be safe? Doesnt that mean it might not truly be a blief, but more a "just in case?

 

[DR.D]

... So its simply this- there (in my mind) are three possiblities for who Jesus Christ is

A.- A mad man
B. A liar
C. The Son of God


my .02 here gents!

This is exactly true!

A. He was crazy, and actually believed he was god even though he wasn't.

B. He was a con man, and said he was god even though he knew he wasn't.

C. He actually was who he said he was, God.

 

[DR.D]

No offesne D, but that is a tad too convienent for me. To be honest, look into the end of the Egyptian empire, and see that much of their history was killed off and destroyed by the newly Christian Roman empire. I also must disagree with the less verifiable statement.

At the end of the day, it is just as plausable, that the Jesus story was taken from other sources as a political tool for Constantine at both Nicea and Hippo in the 4th century as a way to unify the empire

Yes Sir, I agree completely. But what if it's the other way around, as I suggested? It's a very intriguing concept, no?! I'm just saying it's not accurate to assume the story was borrowed, because it wasn't necessarily and there is some compelling evidence to suggest an alternate explanation.

Run down that rabbit hole for a few weeks and you'll see what I mean. There is something more to this 'mystery of iniquity' than what our church preachers and secular professors have taught us, and I'm gonna figure it out one day!

 

[DR.D]

Just trying to be clear D, are you saying the nontheists should believe just to be safe? Doesnt that mean it might not truly be a blief, but more a "just in case?

Oh no, that would be equally foolish! Sorry if I gave that impression. You don't believe just for the sake of belief, that's nothing more than positive thinking with no substantial object of faith other than faith itself.

But when in doubt, at least investigate everything you can before you form such a solid conclusion. This is a high stakes issue if it's true, and just like exercise you will get out of it a yield which is proportional to the effort you put into discovering it.

God is a rewarder of those who sincerely seek him. This is a great truth, and I dare say my life is proof that our righteousness is virtually irrelevant, lol. I have done nothing particularly noble with my existence, but I have sought truth even at my lowest, and I think it's made all the difference.

 

[AE14]

Yes Sir, I agree completely. But what if it's the other way around, as I suggested? It's a very intriguing concept, no?! I'm just saying it's not accurate to assume the story was borrowed, because it wasn't necessarily and there is some compelling evidence to suggest an alternate explanation.

Run down that rabbit hole for a few weeks and you'll see what I mean. There is something more to this 'mystery of iniquity' than what our church preachers and secular professors have taught us, and I'm gonna figure it out one day!

Consider me a partner in this quest.

 

[Army Guy]

gone for a few hours and I miss out on the best discussions thus far!!! Great points made by all! I will add a little to D and a few others. For me, this is as every bit personal as it is intellectual... meaning that I came on bended knees myself and asked God if he was and is real. For me that prayer was answered. I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did. From that point until this I have studied hours on end to understand the feelings that were given me. My favorite has been the study of Isaiah. I have read countless hours and books, prayed and pondered. Also the book of Revelation, as spoken of above. It is not an easy commitment to study these writings when the lazy part of me wants to watch TV late at night, but nightly I have my studying time.
I love reading about many of the great debates on here from AE, and CM and a few of the others, it gives me a renewed purpose and determination. I also appreciate the support of the Christian view that I hold from D, DD, LG33 and many others. These topics, I hope, will continue in the respectful way they have been going thus far... that we may all learn from one another the things of God as much as the strengthening of the body.
AG

 

[DR.D]

... I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did. From that point until this I have studied hours on end to understand the feelings that were given me. My favorite has been the study of Isaiah. ...

"There is no peace," says the Lord, "for the wicked." Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord; those who hope in me will not be disappointed." - Isaiah 49:22-23

Those who hope in the Lord will not be disappointed. Possibly my favorite line in the whole Bible. I get those 'feeling' too AG, and I don't think there are any adequate words to describe the affirmation and comfort the Spirit brings.

 

[Liftergym33]

gone for a few hours and I miss out on the best discussions thus far!!! Great points made by all! I will add a little to D and a few others. For me, this is as every bit personal as it is intellectual... meaning that I came on bended knees myself and asked God if he was and is real. For me that prayer was answered. I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did. From that point until this I have studied hours on end to understand the feelings that were given me. My favorite has been the study of Isaiah. I have read countless hours and books, prayed and pondered. Also the book of Revelation, as spoken of above. It is not an easy commitment to study these writings when the lazy part of me wants to watch TV late at night, but nightly I have my studying time.
I love reading about many of the great debates on here from AE, and CM and a few of the others, it gives me a renewed purpose and determination. I also appreciate the support of the Christian view that I hold from D, DD, LG33 and many others. These topics, I hope, will continue in the respectful way they have been going thus far... that we may all learn from one another the things of God as much as the strengthening of the body.
AG

I really enjoy threads like this.. and seeing how each and every member here impacts one another. really makes you think in what you believe in.. why are we here? purpose/reason?..

I had to take an old testament class for the credit, and at that time, it was only for the credit. During that time I had some major issues going on, more so with my mother finding out she had cancer spreading through her body. I will say, i was a ****ing mess... asking myself why? I would stay after and talk with the preacher for countless hours. it was that time he asked; why not invite him into your life? it was that moment i did. Like AG stated, it was the most overwhelming feeling i ever felt. I see so many versions and beliefs I honestly think it comes down to what you believe in....

 

[B5150]

meaning that I came on bended knees myself and asked God if he was and is real. For me that prayer was answered.

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

 

[Army Guy]

my friends thanks for your input and quotes! Those were a great boost this morning!! looking forward to more discussion from CM and AE!!! Let's keep this thread alive guys! Something I would like to ask the two of you...
What is your take on Isaiah 53? This is the chapter talking about the Mortal Messiah to come as one killed for the sins of the world, as opposed to the Millennial Messiah who would come to rule and reign, as the Jews at the time of Christ were looking forward to as a political call to arms to free themselves from the oppression of the Romans. Guys like myself, Dr, and DD would view this one as prophecy being fulfilled.
thoughts my friends???

 

[AE14]

my friends thanks for your input and quotes! Those were a great boost this morning!! looking forward to more discussion from CM and AE!!! Let's keep this thread alive guys! Something I would like to ask the two of you...
What is your take on Isaiah 53? This is the chapter talking about the Mortal Messiah to come as one killed for the sins of the world, as opposed to the Millennial Messiah who would come to rule and reign, as the Jews at the time of Christ were looking forward to as a political call to arms to free themselves from the oppression of the Romans. Guys like myself, Dr, and DD would view this one as prophecy being fulfilled.
thoughts my friends???

Its a very interesting idea, however, part of this prophecy as of course not happened.

I also will answer it with a question: Why did the Jews of the time not view Jesus as their expected messiah? They had specific thoughts about prophecies that he did not fufill

 

[Army Guy]

that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power. To avoid typing many paragraphs on this point I will say this and hope that you have seen and read similar and understand the point...
The Sadducees and Pharisees in control were threatened. The fact that he was proclaiming himself, or the people were proclaiming his King of the Jews, was a mute point. They held an illegal trial because they were afraid the established order and diminished power that they did in fact have would be threatened. The illegal trial, and if you want to know why illegal we can discuss that later, condemned him to die during the night time. He stood before Pilot the next morning, but that was on the Roman portion of Jerusalem overlooking the temple, a place not frequented by regular people or worshipers. Thus the cry Crucify Him was yelled by those who knew what was happening through the night long ordeal...
bottom line to this long answer. The people accepted and hailed him as their Messiah, but the established order condemned him to death.

 

[Flaw]

For me, this is as every bit personal as it is intellectual... meaning that I came on bended knees myself and asked God if he was and is real. For me that prayer was answered. I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did. From that point until this I have studied hours on end to understand the feelings that were given me.

God's holy spirit is a interesting thing. It confirms the things you believe so you have proof of god's existence. Those without faith would never experience it therefore could never believe. I've seen God's hand in my life countless times. Maybe I didn't get my prayer answered as soon as I wanted but in time, with patience it came. (bear in mind you must do his will to have your prayers answered) Just as god pulled his hand away from Job he does the same to us. He let's the devil tempt us but if we keep faith in him we will make it through anything.

"For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time." - Hebrews 4:15,16


Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt YOU in due time; while YOU throw all YOUR anxiety upon him, because he cares for YOU. Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone]. But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world. But, after YOU have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called YOU to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish YOUR training, he will make YOU firm, he will make YOU strong. To him be the might forever. Amen." -1 Peter 5:6-11

 

[Army Guy]

well said Flaw! and great quotes!

 

[AE14]

that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power. To avoid typing many paragraphs on this point I will say this and hope that you have seen and read similar and understand the point...
The Sadducees and Pharisees in control were threatened. The fact that he was proclaiming himself, or the people were proclaiming his King of the Jews, was a mute point. They held an illegal trial because they were afraid the established order and diminished power that they did in fact have would be threatened. The illegal trial, and if you want to know why illegal we can discuss that later, condemned him to die during the night time. He stood before Pilot the next morning, but that was on the Roman portion of Jerusalem overlooking the temple, a place not frequented by regular people or worshipers. Thus the cry Crucify Him was yelled by those who knew what was happening through the night long ordeal...
bottom line to this long answer. The people accepted and hailed him as their Messiah, but the established order condemned him to death.

Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
2. Usher in an era of peace
3. Bring all the jews to Israel
4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important

 

[Army Guy]

Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
2. Usher in an era of peace
3. Bring all the jews to Israel
4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important

well agree and disagree... the problem is yes, there was a following in the wilderness as he traveled, but nothing more than say John the Baptist. The difference is the entry into Jerusalem... The city was overflowing with people for the passover celebration. The city called out Hosanna as he entered. It was this final entry that also sealed his fate. Thousands called out to him, he rode in on the white donkey, symbolic in that day of kingship, and prophesied as well.
Now for the 1-4 you stated above. These are taken from Isaiah, but let's not confuse the Mortal Messiah with the Millenial Messiah. You are 100% correct that these things are to be done prior to or along with the Mellenial reign. However, the 3 temple could not be built yet when he was on the earth as the 2nd temple was still standing at the time.
I agree full heartily that people were looking for their Messiah to fulfill these others points, where they lost their way was he needed to come in the flesh FIRST. And while in the flesh he would be "Despised and rejected of men. A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief... he would be led as a lamb to the slaughter and open not his mouth."

 

[B5150]

as the Jews at the time of Christ were looking forward to as a political call to arms to free themselves from the oppression of the Romans. Guys like myself, Dr, and DD would view this one as prophecy being fulfilled.
thoughts my friends???

Its a very interesting idea, however, part of this prophecy as of course not happened.

I also will answer it with a question: Why did the Jews of the time not view Jesus as their expected messiah? They had specific thoughts about prophecies that he did not fufill

Additionally I believe they had anticipated that He would lead a revolution and or a revolt. They mistook the freedom from oppression as being set free from the bondage of the oppressor - The Roman Empire. When Jesus came to us, he came not as a worldly king but as a servant. He showed that one could be free of the shackles imposed by religious and cultural law. The Jews wanted revolution of the body, Jesus brought a revolution in the spirit.

 

[Army Guy]

Additionally I believe they had anticipated that He would lead a revolution and or a revolt. They mistook the freedom from oppression as being set free from the bondage of the oppressor - The Roman Empire. When Jesus came to us, he came not as a worldly king but as a servant. He showed that one could be free of the shackles imposed by religious and cultural law. The Jews wanted revolution of the body, Jesus brought a revolution in the spirit.

exactly! He was there the First time, the Mortal Messiah, to save them from their sins, NOT to save them from the bounds of Roman tyranny. That will be saved for his 2nd coming, or the Millenial Messiah. We put DD

 

[AE14]

I agree full heartily that people were looking for their Messiah to fulfill these others points, where they lost their way was he needed to come in the flesh FIRST. And while in the flesh he would be "Despised and rejected of men. A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief... he would be led as a lamb to the slaughter and open not his mouth."

however, this is not what the text requires. Nothing specifically states a first and second coming

 

[Army Guy]

however, this is not what the text requires. Nothing specifically states a first and second coming

it is all a mater of interpretation my friend. But that is what gives books like Isaiah their richness. It allows one to see there are two comings, or there are one.

 

[Flaw]

The very beginning of Genesis points to a first and second coming.

Gen 3: 15*"And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The bruising of the heel symbolizes christ first coming as the seed. He was bruised in the heel because he was put to death but only the heel because he was not dead forever. He was ressurected and the bruising of the head symbolizes the final blow to satan the devil in the second coming of christ.

It was prophesized that christ would come and he did. We await the second coming when he bruises the devil in the head.

 

[AE14]

Flaw


That is a bit of a stretch IMO. As AG said we all can see different things I suppose

 

[Flaw]

Don't think so..

Galations 3:16*"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. "

Jesus was "the seed".

 

[chocolatemilk]

that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power.

Look at what is in bold AG. The only person of power that could put Jesus to death was Pontius Pilot. All other groups did not have the power to do it. They pushed for it, but they themselves could not do it.

Pontius Pilot, the only man of power to kill Jesus, washed his hands from that decision. Pilot gave Jesus up to the people, and the people chose between Jesus and Barabbas to be condemned and killed.

So his trial and condemnation did come from the people.

 

[AE14]

Don't think so..

Galations 3:16*"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. "

Jesus was "the seed".

Again, just based on interpretation. Nowhere in that quote is there a reference to anything about a second coming. Also bear in mind this is NT text and not OT which is what we were refering to previously

 

[chocolatemilk]

I'm with AE... I don't understand the connections you're making Flaw.

 

[DR.D]

God's holy spirit is a interesting thing. It confirms the things you believe so you have proof of god's existence. Those without faith would never experience it therefore could never believe. I've seen God's hand in my life countless times. ...

When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

 

[AE14]

So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me

 

[schwellington]

This is exactly true!

A. He was crazy, and actually believed he was god even though he wasn't.

B. He was a con man, and said he was god even though he knew he wasn't.

C. He actually was who he said he was, God.

Exactly

and history shows us Jesus was NOT a lunatic- people wouldnt have followed Him so closely! Lunatics where not treated with respect in those days

Also if He was a lair people would not have risked their lives in following Him


That leaves me with one conclusion

He is the Messiah

 

[schwellington]

When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

I have this also

I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


I believe it to be God

 

[schwellington]

When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

I have this also

I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


I believe it to be God


as for AE14

I love science- absolutley love it!

But science cannot explain everything

 

[Army Guy]

Look at what is in bold AG. The only person of power that could put Jesus to death was Pontius Pilot. All other groups did not have the power to do it. They pushed for it, but they themselves could not do it.

Pontius Pilot, the only man of power to kill Jesus, washed his Ohands from that decision. Pilot gave Jesus up to the people, and the people chose between Jesus and Barabbas to be condemned and killed.

So his trial and condemnation did come from the people.

good point CM, and welcome back my friend! But let us look at it as a time frame. The Sadducees, who where then in control of the San hedrin at the time, were those I was referring to as rulers. They arrested Jesus at night in the garden. He stood in illegal trial all night. Was taken to herod that night, and was finally before Pilot early the next morning. The choice between Barrabas and Jesus took place early Friday morning. The only people who knew Jesus had been arrested were those who in fact arrested him. This would be like holding a state election and only telling 1/20th of electorate it was taking place. So IMHO the people only found out about this as he was condemned as he walked carrying the cross.

 

[DR.D]

So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me

Well, I'm a man of science at least, yes. (it was very gracious of you to add the intelligent part though, lol)

I'm still not sure how to explain it conventionally, AE. Back then, it was not possible for me to be anything more than an agnostic before my revelation, and I would argue with everybody who believed (even my wife!) I would make fun of them, just like many atheists here do to believers, never acknowledging many of the historical aspects but quickly pointing out the unlikelihood of a Christian god. Why would such a great God waste his time on the petty affairs of mankind? That was my bottom line and my major hang-up with religion. The universe was just too big for such a personal relationship to exist between an almighty God and a little man on a small planet in a medium solar system in an average galaxy, etc, etc.. I thought sure, maybe there is a singular omnipotent creator, but certainly not one like any religion presented. I thought I could learn the mind of God through standardized, quantitized, analytical science. I was a thinking man, I didn't need "belief" to poison that! I viewed religion as a primitive form of science to explain natural phenomena in the absence of the necessary scientific understanding.

So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.

 

[AE14]

as for AE14

I love science- absolutley love it!

But science cannot explain everything

so that means god I assume......

Or is it something, like Dr. D said, that still needs to be searched?

 

[AE14]

So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.

the first bolded section is what gives me trouble to be honest.