The 2012 bug is catching on!

[AE14]

well conversations like this one allways end up the same way. Fun for a lil while but in the end Blind Faith is just that, Blind.


I do not require a higher powers help to be a moral person in life or to appreciate every second I have to live and love my friends & family.

I might meet your god someday, but untill then I am content being a Human "Being".

cya guys 2morrow its like 1230am afgh time lol

well said my friend

 

[DR.D]

the flood story is an interesting one as all cultures have it in their story lines.

Exactly. Perhaps there is something to it, no? As are the accounts of giants, and how 'the gods' produced them with the daughters of men (necessarily distinguishing themselves from human men).

I think using Satan is a tad of a copout IMO. That basically discredits all other bliefs that can predate christianity by thousands of years. ...

Ohhhh yeah, I can hear it now... "the devil made me do it!" LOL

It's quite an easy cop-out alright, but that does not mean that he doesn't exist. Indeed, it just means that people misapply his existence to cast off their own personal responsibilities! For example, my kid may tell me that the dog ate his homework. Now 9 times outta 10 the dog is innocent, lol, but that in no way nullifies the reality that I do in fact have a dog, he does truly exist. So you say, 'yeah, you see your dog sitting in the backyard, so you can directly confirm his existence.' Exactly right. So I dare say that the main reason you doubt now, is just because you have not yet personally perceived this spiritual reality, not because it isn't there. An atheist is simply a future believer who hasn't yet observed this truth. That's why I say, don't be so quick to form a conclusion just yet. Be an agnostic if you don't know better.

 

[AE14]

Exactly. Perhaps there is something to it, no? As are the accounts of giants, and how 'the gods' produced them with the daughters of men (necessarily distinguishing themselves from human men).

I would love to see the remains of these creatures found

Ohhhh yeah, I can hear it now... "the devil made me do it!" LOL

It's quite an easy cop-out alright, but that does not mean that he doesn't exist. Indeed, it just means that people misapply his existence to cast off their own personal responsibilities! For example, my kid may tell me that the dog ate his homework. Now 9 times outta 10 the dog is innocent, lol, but that in no way nullifies the reality that I do in fact have a dog, he does truly exist. So you say, 'yeah, you see your dog sitting in the backyard, so you can directly confirm his existence.' Exactly right. So I dare say that the main reason you doubt now, is just because you have not yet personally perceived this spiritual reality, not because it isn't there. An atheist is simply a future believer who hasn't yet observed this truth. That's why I say, don't be so quick to form a conclusion just yet. Be an agnostic if you don't know better.

I understand totally what you are saying. However, we must work with probability not possibility. As David Hume said "anything is possible, but you would be a fool to believe it"

I will say, that we can turn around your thoughts, that the theist is just an atheist that hasnt found the truth yet

 

[Flaw]

actually there are several. Many of which canbe found in very old copies of the NT showing that they were originally included.

1. 1. book of Enoch
   2. Infancy Gospel of Jesus
   3. Gospel of Mary
   4. Gospel of Thomas
   5. Gospel of Judas (still much to be determined on this one)

these are just a couple

touche :lol:

What I'm trying to figure out from your stand point is what does any of this mean to you? Have you ever once thought that the book contains what it needs to? If you have indeed read it you would know it does. I believe you have come upon a lot of propaganda that doesn't even disprove anything. It only distracts one from knowing the Truth and you've never questioned your sources? It sure sounds like they are clumped together. The blind leading the blind.

Matt 15:14,14 "Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."

Proverbs 14:15 "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps."

 

[AE14]

What I'm trying to figure out from your stand point is what does any of this mean to you? Have you ever once thought that the book contains what it needs to? If you have indeed read it you would know it does. I believe you have come upon a lot of propaganda that doesn't even disprove anything. It only distracts one from knowing the Truth and you've never questioned your sources? It sure sounds like they are clumped together. The blind leading the blind.

Matt 15:14,14 "Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."

Proverbs 14:15 "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps."

I have read both the NT and OT, and my stand point is that both books are full of borrowed information and tradition which IMO really lessen their truth. It is completely logical that the men who created the texts at the time would take whatever they could from existing traditions to appease the masses, however, that shows that the books are not literal IMO.

I also think both books were most certainly written by men, which just goes to show how flawed and corrupt they are.

BTW, my commentary says nothing about god......it is about man created religion, which to me is a true problem for society

 

[Flaw]

I also think both books were most certainly written by men, which just goes to show how flawed and corrupt they are.

BTW, my commentary says nothing about god......it is about man created religion, which to me is a true problem for society

Most definetely the words were written by man but the message God wanted the people to know remains. I don't think this came about by chance.

We certainly agree on one thing. Religion is corrupt. I don't think that's a secret at all. Everyone can see it. Men have used religion for political gain for centuries. I believe as you that religion was created to control people. But as Dr. D said Religion and God are 2 different things. Jesus clearly talked about warned of these men using religion.

Matthew 7:15- "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Matthew 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one whod oes the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

Check this scriptures on religion

James 1:26-27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

There's a way in which God wants everyone to serve him and a Majority that claim to be christian don't act like christians. Just cause you got a cross around your neck or you say you believe in Christ means nothing if you don't do the will of God. Can you dig?

 

[DR.D]

I would love to see the remains of these creatures found

Me too, lol. Many, many photos and articles exist on-line, but who knows now valid they are. Some appear to be legit if you research the issue.

I understand totally what you are saying. However, we must work with probability not possibility. As David Hume said "anything is possible, but you would be a fool to believe it"

I agree completely.

I will say, that we can turn around your thoughts, that the theist is just an atheist that hasnt found the truth yet

Haha, I think there are many atheists out there who are ex-theists, that just got tired of looking for the truth! It can certainly be quite tiring, dissecting the valuable tid-bits of truth from among all the lies, hypocrisy and disinfo.

Remember, the greatest method of deception is to counterfeit.

 

[chocolatemilk]

I don't know if it's already been mentioned but genesis, the bible story of creation belongs to the sumerians 2000 years before the bible was written.

Noah's flood is also their story.

Some of the stuff is word for word, the rest is a blatant copy.

Word for word "Man was created in the image of God" "Adamu was created in the garden of Eden" and other passages not looking them up right now.

Bible is not original by any means.

All this stuff is fairy tales. The earth will waste away by nuclear warfare or human poisoning of the atmosphere. All natural, and normal things. You would think in our day and age people would be over a "spiritual Armageddon." But they're not....

In Iran, they believe their "messiah" will come only after a huge war. Their "Imam" equivalent of the pope for catholics has more authority than anyone in their nation and brought Ahmedinejad to win the elections (remember the riots--the elections were rigged and everyone in that damn country knew). Together (along with other higher council men), Ahmedinejad and the Imam want to bring on their "messiah," and guess how? Wipe Isreal off the map. Warfare on global scales. It's in the NY times.

See what these retarded beliefs bring on? We humans are complete idiots.

 

[DR.D]

I don't know if it's already been mentioned but genesis, the bible story of creation belongs to the sumerians 2000 years before the bible was written.

Noah's flood is also their story.

Some of the stuff is word for word, the rest is a blatant copy.

Word for word "Man was created in the image of God" "Adamu was created in the garden of Eden" and other passages not looking them up right now.

Bible is not original by any means.

This is all incorrect. I think you're just spewing something you heard somebody else say, perhaps with good intentions, but it is incorrect no less. If you look into it for yourself, you will see great differences. For example, the Sumarians basically believed that aliens seeded the modern genome, while the Bible indicates that God created man, and the "aliens" initiated their own unauthorized genetic experiments to sabotage that. It's pretty interesting. You should look into it better if you're really interested in finding the truth.

nuclear warfare or human poisoning of the atmosphere. All natural, and normal things. You would think in our day and age people would be over a "spiritual Armageddon." But they're not....

In Iran, they believe their "messiah" will come only after a huge war. Their "Imam" equivalent of the pope for catholics has more authority than anyone in their nation and brought Ahmedinejad to win the elections (remember the riots--the elections were rigged and everyone in that damn country knew). Together (along with other higher council men), Ahmedinejad and the Imam want to bring on their "messiah," and guess how? Wipe Isreal off the map. Warfare on global scales. It's in the NY times.

See what these retarded beliefs bring on? We humans are complete idiots.

If we as humans are idiots, it's only because we believed the lies of religion! And now the established, organized religions have become so strong and wealthy that it will be hard to convince them to give up that power.

That doesn't mean there is no god though.

 

[chocolatemilk]

This is all incorrect. I think you're just spewing something you heard somebody else say, perhaps with good intentions, but it is incorrect no less. If you look into it for yourself, you will see great differences. For example, the Sumarians basically believed that aliens seeded the modern genome, while the Bible indicates that God created man, and the "aliens" initiated their own unauthorized genetic experiments to sabotage that. It's pretty interesting. You should look into it better if you're really interested in finding the truth.

You're right D, they are different story lines, however, they bear striking similarities and you seem to know about them. I'm surprised you don't agree with me that they are identical stories if you know about them. My Prof tells me it is well accepted that the genesis story arose from the summerian tablets among ALL scholars. Same with Noahs flood, the character in their story wasn't Noah, but strikingly similar passages at times that coincidence alone cannot stand to explain it.

And I have read them, and compared passages in class.

If we as humans are idiots, it's only because we believed the lies of religion! And now the established, organized religions have become so strong and wealthy that it will be hard to convince them to give up that power.

That doesn't mean there is no god though.

You're absolutely right here. But if the belief in God that we have leads to destruction..... clearly, CLEARLY we need a change in belief wouldn't you agree? Must be following the wrong God if that's the case.

 

[Flaw]

We humans are complete idiots.

I agree whole heartedly!

if the belief in God that we have leads to destruction..... clearly, CLEARLY we need a change in belief wouldn't you agree? Must be following the wrong God if that's the case.

God has to bring destruction, that is upon the ones destroying the earth and making it "hell" for the good ones. Otherwise like you said in a earlier post about nuclear warfare and poisoning of the atmosphere we will destroy ourselves. We have the power and we are getting closer every day to wiping ourselves off the map. Something has to change and we sure aren't doing a good job at saving ourselves!

 

[DR.D]

You're right D, they are different story lines, however, they bear striking similarities and you seem to know about them. I'm surprised you don't agree with me that they are identical stories if you know about them. My Prof tells me it is well accepted that the genesis story arose from the summerian tablets among ALL scholars. Same with Noahs flood, the character in their story wasn't Noah, but strikingly similar passages at times that coincidence alone cannot stand to explain it.

And I have read them, and compared passages in class.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying big time, but over the last few years I have researched this whole argument quite extensively. I think most professors have this two dimensional view of the similarities, and it boxes them into misleading preconceptions. They look at the sequential events and assume that since the Bible came later, the similarities were 'borrowed'. But there is absolutely no imperative for that to necessarily be true, so assumed conclusions are erroneous. The Earth is much older IMO, likely with races and civilizations that pre-dated man. This drama is like an ancient soap-opra unfolding, and you have to go back a little father in time to understand. If two opposing sides were given a script, or rules of engagement, how easy would it be to stage this view throughout history? A deception tactic to mislead many. I looks more like an ancient conspiracy protocol rather than an evolution of primitive religions. Something else is at work here bro, and it's not as simple as you've been lead to believe IMO.

You're absolutely right here. But if the belief in God that we have leads to destruction..... clearly, CLEARLY we need a change in belief wouldn't you agree? Must be following the wrong God if that's the case.

Oh man, if you've read the Bible then you already know how much Jesus hated religion. He hated it worse that most atheists do! I don't think a belief in God leads to destruction, I think a belief in religion is the culprit! With all it's rituals and requirements, that's the problem, the politics involved in all the churches. Trying to gain power by controlling the beliefs of their followers, and corrupting the whole point of their existence in the first place, which is to yield to a higher power for the good of the species, not to greedily seek control of men and destroy one another. God has really gotten a bad rap in all this.

 

[AE14]

This is all incorrect. I think you're just spewing something you heard somebody else say, perhaps with good intentions, but it is incorrect no less. If you look into it for yourself, you will see great differences. For example, the Sumarians basically believed that aliens seeded the modern genome, while the Bible indicates that God created man, and the "aliens" initiated their own unauthorized genetic experiments to sabotage that. It's pretty interesting. You should look into it better if you're really interested in finding the truth.

the sumerians are an interesting case. these "aliens" were their gods, not necessarily extraterrestrial. However, if you reread the OT and another holy text like the Ramayana they are not much different from the Sumerians. The OT speak of elohim, which is plural, not singular. Additionally, they came from the sky and fire chariots. Hmmmm

If we as humans are idiots, it's only because we believed the lies of religion! And now the established, organized religions have become so strong and wealthy that it will be hard to convince them to give up that power.

This is well said.

 

[Flaw]

Atheists say they hate religion how about the christians who see the hypocrisy in most religions. That boils our blood more then you know. Especially when your doing your hardest to serve God rightfully and these "so-called" christians are killing in the name of God. I lived in the Bible belt for almost 5 years and it's unbelievable the hypocrisy in them. They use religion to draw people into business and so on. Christ taught us to love one another and racism is strong down there. I couldn't believe it, I had to move back north. Not that you don't have hypocrisy everywhere but down there is was more abundant.

 

[chocolatemilk]

But there is absolutely no imperative for that to necessarily be true, so assumed conclusions are erroneous.

This is very true D. However, with this ideology, a court ruling would always be considered an erroneous conclusion. So would many other things.

There are numerous things that we can NEVER prove. It's just impossible to know for a sure fact that the Genesis story was borrowed from the Sumerian tablets logically speaking, however, I do believe we have smoking gun evidence for this.

I don't think a belief in God leads to destruction,

Oh but it does. Believing in a God could surely lead to destruction.

I will be 100% honest with you... when I was a deep Christian, I would hope everyday that some world disaster occurred. I wanted a big war to happen. And I think MANY believers in Christ WANT bad things to happen. Why? So that Jesus can come again.

Can you believe that? I lived my life hoping for war, famine, destruction, all so that my "savior" would come.

Horrible mode of thinking. Planting a seed like that in your mind where you welcome destruction is a disgusting seed to plant in yourself and leads to a mentally retarded person incapable of being truly compassionate.

And for me... and many of you (I know many of you want the same things I did), it was my belief in God that fully welcomed destruction with open arms.

 

[DR.D]

This is very true D. However, with this ideology, a court ruling would always be considered an erroneous conclusion. So would many other things.

There are numerous things that we can NEVER prove. It's just impossible to know for a sure fact that the Genesis story was borrowed from the Sumerian tablets logically speaking, however, I do believe we have smoking gun evidence for this.

Yeah, I hear you loud and clear. I'm just thinking outside the box and considering alternate possibilities based on my research. Possibilities that seem more probable now, though still can't be proved.

You have to be very careful what you "believe" in, and what you form solid conclusions about. Because once you look straight forward not looking to the left or right, your vision is only as good as the object of your focus! I'm just saying it's best to stay open minded and be slow to take any other man's opinion (even a professor or mentor) for fact. Every man must answer the question for himself, and it appears that many decoys and traps have been set by all sides involved for propaganda purposes.

Oh but it does. Believing in a God could surely lead to destruction.

I will be 100% honest with you... when I was a deep Christian, I would hope everyday that some world disaster occurred. I wanted a big war to happen. And I think MANY believers in Christ WANT bad things to happen. Why? So that Jesus can come again.

Can you believe that? I lived my life hoping for war, famine, destruction, all so that my "savior" would come.

Horrible mode of thinking. Planting a seed like that in your mind where you welcome destruction is a disgusting seed to plant in yourself and leads to a mentally retarded person incapable of being truly compassionate.

And for me... and many of you (I know many of you want the same things I did), it was my belief in God that fully welcomed destruction with open arms.

So you abandoned Christianity? Do you have any spiritual assertions now?

Yes, you're probably right. Many people are eager for justice and righteousness to be restored to this world. The Bible indicates that righteousness will be restored one day, but living in that hope can result in some later days anxiety. I don't know how that could realistically be avoided though. It's like a kid that can't sleep the night before Christmas, it's just a side effect of the circumstance. It doesn't necessarily mean that Christmas is bad because it induces anxiety as it approaches, that's just how it goes.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Every man must answer the question for himself, and it appears that many decoys and traps have been set by all sides involved for propaganda purposes.

I don't think there's any propaganda involved here. This isn't some mysterious artifact that has many questions surrounding it's validity like the 'Shroud of Turin.' This is a well established artifact dating back to the first civilization that began to read and write amongst the human species. They wrote a story identical to Genesis.

So you abandoned Christianity? Do you have any spiritual assertions now?

Yes, I did, but not solely for that reason. Also, "abandoned" is the wrong word. More like freeing myself from the grips of Religion.

I am a firm believer in a "higher form of intelligence." An intelligence that surpasses human capability. That is all I know about God. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I simply separated my God from religion. You said it best:

I don't think a belief in God leads to destruction, I think a belief in religion is the culprit! With all it's rituals and requirements, that's the problem, the politics involved in all the churches.

This was the best thing for me to mature mentally. To separate "Religion" from "God." To comprehend that God is not religious by any means--that God does not follow a religion. He is not from a religion.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how that could realistically be avoided though. It's like a kid that can't sleep the night before Christmas, it's just a side effect of the circumstance. It doesn't necessarily mean that Christmas is bad because it induces anxiety as it approaches, that's just how it goes.

Your Christmas analogy doesn't match up with what I said. When a child is anxious for Christmas, he is excited for a good thing that is coming. There is nothing wrong with that. That is a great feeling to have.

I was not anxious for anything like Christmas--I was anxious for a big war. That's what I was waiting for, and that's what I wanted.

There is a big difference.

 

[schwellington]

Since you seem to at least wanna look up some info here are some Christ like people forya to google yourself to death :deal:

Virgin births b4 Christ :

HORUS

JASON

RA

JOVE

APIS

OSIRIS

and more.

A quik example on how The Christ story is not new.

Horus of Egypt : Remember this is just one of many preceeding Christ,

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis

I may have misread the post- but u said horus becomes John the baptist- who prepared the way for Christ



No matter what we say or do we cannot force someone to believe what we believe- period. Nor am I going to try to shove ANYTHING down anyones throats


I will simply stick to my belief in Jesus Christ and do my best to follow Him- but I will say this- we can debate this all day long- but the personal experiences I have had- cannot be debated- I am not saying they are proof of who Christ is- what I am saying is my personal experiences with Jesus Christ are my own- and therefore cannot be debated!

 

[schwellington]

I will also say this- it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove God exists- but it is also IMPOSSIBLE to prove He does not-

 

[DR.D]

I don't think there's any propaganda involved here. This isn't some mysterious artifact that has many questions surrounding it's validity like the 'Shroud of Turin.' This is a well established artifact dating back to the first civilization that began to read and write amongst the human species. They wrote a story identical to Genesis.

Reread the first 5-10 chapters of Genesis. Ever notice how the offspring of the ousted son Cain have the same, or extremely similar names as the line of his good brother Seth? Enoch and Enosh, Mehujael and Mehalalel, etc.. the thing is, it's not like there was a shortage of names back then! There was clearly some kind of attempted counterfeit and intent to generate confusion. It's nothing new man, this whole mystery of iniquity.

Think about it. The most dangerous predator does not knock on your door looking like the wolf he is, he conceals himself as a shepard until the time of the kill. The devil masquerades as an angel of light too, pretending to be some kind of hidden hero, while he is only a skilled liar who relies of deception as his primary weapon.

Yes, I did, but not solely for that reason. Also, "abandoned" is the wrong word. More like freeing myself from the grips of Religion.

I am a firm believer in a "higher form of intelligence." An intelligence that surpasses human capability. That is all I know about God. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I simply separated my God from religion. You said it best:

This was the best thing for me to mature mentally. To separate "Religion" from "God." To comprehend that God is not religious by any means--that God does not follow a religion. He is not from a religion.

--------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I can respect that.

Your Christmas analogy doesn't match up with what I said. When a child is anxious for Christmas, he is excited for a good thing that is coming. There is nothing wrong with that. That is a great feeling to have.

I was not anxious for anything like Christmas--I was anxious for a big war. That's what I was waiting for, and that's what I wanted.

There is a big difference.

I don't necessarily agree. All's well that ends well. Or perhaps a more contemporary expression, the ends justify the means. Everybody recognizes the reality of that, right?

If a war is necessary, then why would you have any particular bias against it? War, disaster, whatever.. is not necessarily "bad" or "good". The results are what define it.

If a thief on the street cuts you with a knife and you die, that's "bad". If a doctor cuts you with a knife to help cure some illness, that's "good". Things should be defined based on the fruit they bear.

 

[chocolatemilk]

If a war is necessary, then why would you have any particular bias against it?

Well war was necessary to stop Hitler so I don't have a bias against it between human affairs. War may be necessary at times between humans.

But war being "necessary" between Gods affairs.... not a God I want to follow. Equivalent to me of the wolf dressed in the sheep's clothing like you said.

The bible God comes off as a loving God, but what did he instruct the Israelites to do the Ameleks and all other nations once reaching the promised land? Kill every man, woman, babe, suckling, child, cattle, donkey, animal and utterly destroy them and show no mercy and make no covenants with them. So, Saul sets off to do this.

On his way Saul meets the Canaanites and he doesn't kill them (he was supposed to rid all nations of the promised land). And when Saul reaches the Ameleks, he spares their king Agog, and brings back the cattle and animals to feed his people.

Was God pleased about Sauls mercy to the Canaanites, Ameleks, and generosity to his people? No. He didn't get the blood shed he asked for. So God says to Saul, you have rejected me so I have rejected you.

Are you kidding me? Heres the kicker:

Samuel must make up for Sauls acts and he has to do this by hacking king Agog into pieces in front of the Lord. Disgusting.

One of many cases of how "just" the Bible God really is.

D... I believe you are following the wolf.

War, disaster, whatever.. is not necessarily "bad" or "good". The results are what define it.

Just because the results of going to war against Hitler were good (free the world), it does not mean that "going to war" in itself and shedding blood all of the sudden was ALSO a good thing.

I state it was a BAD thing... for a GOOD result.

You state it was a GOOD thing... because of GOOD results.

I think my ideology has more ground.

If a thief on the street cuts you with a knife and you die, that's "bad". If a doctor cuts you with a knife to help cure some illness, that's "good". Things should be defined based on the fruit they bear.

Good example to prove your point. But it doesn't work with my WWII example where regardless of the outcome, it was still a bad thing we did. Kill, destroy, bomb, shed blood.... Never a good thing... but sometimes necessary within the human world.

 

[DR.D]

Well war was necessary to stop Hitler so I don't have a bias against it between human affairs. War may be necessary at times between humans.

But war being "necessary" between Gods affairs.... not a God I want to follow. Equivalent to me of the wolf dressed in the sheep's clothing like you said.

The bible God comes off as a loving God, but what did he instruct the Israelites to do the Ameleks and all other nations once reaching the promised land? Kill every man, woman, babe, suckling, child, cattle, donkey, animal and utterly destroy them and show no mercy and make no covenants with them. So, Saul sets off to do this.

On his way Saul meets the Canaanites and he doesn't kill them (he was supposed to rid all nations of the promised land). And when Saul reaches the Ameleks, he spares their king Agog, and brings back the cattle and animals to feed his people.

Was God pleased about Sauls mercy to the Canaanites, Ameleks, and generosity to his people? No. He didn't get the blood shed he asked for. So God says to Saul, you have rejected me so I have rejected you.

Are you kidding me? Heres the kicker:

Samuel must make up for Sauls acts and he has to do this by hacking king Agog into pieces in front of the Lord. Disgusting.

One of many cases of how "just" the Bible God really is.

D... I believe you are following the wolf. ...

Yes, it would seem that God is quite hostile, when you see it from that angle. But your perspective is what determines your view. When you go to the pool and look at the 15ft diving board, it doesn't look that high from the ground. But when you climb up and look down, for some reason it looks much higher from the end of the board!

Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions. It's like your mom telling you not to go in the street to get your ball. You do it anyway because it seems like a good idea to you, then your mom gets pissed and puts you on restriction for not listening to her instructions, lol. She knows best, though you do not understand her logic. God has a much greater perspective on things as a heavenly parent, so even if we don't understand or agree with His protocols, how foolish and futile is it to think our logic is better? He designed the whole system, we did not. That's why God attributed Saul's disobedience to the sin of Divination/witchcraft, because he must have been listening to some other spirit to pull such a bone head move. Any boss will fire you for that kind of insubordination, not just God.

You have already made some big assumptions. Who's to say those tribes were even human? All those Canaanite derived tribes were the unsanctioned, genetically modified Nephilim hybrids (GMO) that were contaminating the human genome. They Bible talks about wheat and tares. They look like us, but they are not worthy of your sympathy, because they weren't even real humans according to the Bible. That's why God was so seemingly ruthless in His mandates to eradicate their DNA. That's why the world was flooded, and that's why Joshua was given a similar task as Saul, to clear the land of all the -ite tribes.

Do you feel sorry for the cancer that the doctor cuts out of you? It's alive, it's part of you, so don't you feel bad to remove it? Doesn't it have an equal right to life too? You can feel that way if you like, but if you don't destroy the contamination in your life, it will eventually destroy yours. Have you ever considered it that way? Necessary evil. Actions are defined by their results and to a lesser extent by their motives. If the results and motives are bad, then the war itself is bad.

I highly recommend this book if you want to understand the alternate perspective I'm talking about. This author has a web site and tons of very interesting u-tube videos also. If she is correct, it changes everything. Read this book and it'll sharpen your understanding of the Bible by leaps and bounds...

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Eden-Knowledge-Good-Evil-666/dp/1598862537/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213839259&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Eden: The Knowledge of Good and Evil 666 (9781598862539): Joye Jeffries Pugh: Books[/ame]

 

[chocolatemilk]

Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions.

I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life.

It's like your mom telling you not to go in the street to get your ball...Any boss will fire you for that kind of insubordination, not just God.

My mom would never tell me to hack someone into pieces in front of her...

And although my boss MAY fire me for not following his order to kill someone... in our society, we award whistle blowers, and I would win against my boss any day for not following a command that violates human freedom. Just like Saul should have been awarded for not following his boss. He was a whistle blower and a good man.

This story reminds me so much of the Nazi's and how some officers would refuse to kill Jews for Hitler, and in turn they themselves would be punished for it.

You put in the roles here... Who's who?

You have already made some big assumptions. Who's to say those tribes were even human? All those Canaanite derived tribes were the unsanctioned, genetically modified Nephilim hybrids (GMO) that were contaminating the human genome. They Bible talks about wheat and tares. They look like us, but they are not worthy of your sympathy, because they weren't even real humans according to the Bible. That's why God was so seemingly ruthless in His mandates to eradicate their DNA. That's why the world was flooded, and that's why Joshua was given a similar task as Saul, to clear the land of all the -ite tribes.

I have not read much about this and am very interested in all this... if you could give me a quick run down about this history of these non-human species mentioned in the bible I would appreciate it D. Nothing elaborate just a quick run down.

If the results and motives are bad, then the war itself is bad.

The war is always bad. Nothing about it--it's motives, outcomes, necessity can ever make it a good thing. It's always a bad thing, but it CAN be for a good cause.

D.. I will look into the book. It will frustrate me to read something like this with my tendency to argue to death about this topic lol but I'll try.

And from me... youtube "God on trial" and watch the entire movie. Theres 9 parts I believe not too long. Beautiful philosophical movie we had to watch in my philosophy class about everything we're talking about. You will like it very much trust me. Please watch it on your free time.

Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing.

 

[AE14]

I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life.
.

this is a point I try to make frequently. The god of the OT is not a nice and kind god, it is a flawed, human like god with major personality issues. He would be a freudian nightmare

 

[DR.D]

I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life. ...

Yes, it could be a bunch of crap, that was instituted to control people with fear. At first, that's certainly what the Bible appears to be.

But the whole point of my argument, is what if it's not? What if it is true (at least to some important degree), and what would be the pertinent implications of that?

I won't speculate about what a "Godly aspect" should even be, how can I criticize? I'm not God. All I really expected from my parents was to be honest with me. As long as God's truthful with me, I can adapt to His will. If there really is a sovereign god, it would necessarily be futile to oppose him anyway.

Read that book man! If nothing else, it may dispel some of your preconceptions and allow you an enhanced new perspective.

 

[B5150]

Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions.

Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."

 

[chocolatemilk]

this is a point I try to make frequently. The god of the OT is not a nice and kind god, it is a flawed, human like god with major personality issues. He would be a freudian nightmare

I agree so much. And sometimes when I say this people try to separate the OT God from the NT God as if the OT does not count or something lol.

Also, if Jesus is God, then we must accept that Jesus was also the OT God. Jesus sure changes his mind throughout history...

Yes, it could be a bunch of crap, that was instituted to control people with fear. At first, that's certainly what the Bible appears to be.

But the whole point of my argument, is what if it's not? What if it is true (at least to some important degree), and what would be the pertinent implications of that?

What are you trying to say? Theres a chance I can go to hell? I'm willing to put my life on the line because that's how confident I am that the creator of our universe would have never designed a "hell." Here is a passage from one of my works:

Revelation 14: 10-11 says that the devil and all the wicked "...shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever.” Now, torture is a human invention. It is found nowhere in the animal kingdom. It is only prevalent in human society. Torture is used to achieve a purpose, whether it is a confession, a punishment, or a psychopath’s use of torture for sadistic stimulation. Now, we humans use jail as a form of torture just as God uses hell as a form of torture. However, there is a big difference between the Godly method and human method. We humans put people in jail to rehabilitate them with rehabilitation programs and such. There is no rehabilitation using God’s method of torture into infinity. So then, who would you say has devised a better method of dealing with offenders? It is clear that the human way is better. For if the human punishment and rehabilitation method turns even one person around, it has become superior to the method of hell which ultimately never turns one person around. What is the point of making people suffer if there is no redemption? Brutality for the sake of brutality is a characteristic of the Bible God.

One of the many reasons I don't believe in hell.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."

Dunn... I don't think we humans give ourselves enough credit.

We follow a God blindly even when he asks us to do something WE KNOW in our heart and soul and every shred of our being that what he is telling us to do is wrong. And when one of us stands up and asks questions.. questions that aren't supposed to be asked...We are given what you just told me. Trust in the lord. It will work out.

Diversions I say. We are smarter than this. We find solutions and answers to everything as humans but when we are dealing with the sensitive topic of our Bible God, we refuse to bury deep into the mystery. We just "trust" it. That is not in me to do as a human.

I will never trust in any God we humans have come up with. We humans cannot comprehend the maker of our universe and he is not from any Religion man has designed.

Every God from every Religion is man made. We don't know God.

"Round in a circle we march and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and knows."

 

[SELFofGOD]

"Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing."


Well I tried , you can lead a horse to water but...

so I will introduce some Atheist humor ...

 

[AE14]

gotta love the athiest humor :lol:

the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

Just my other 2 cents

 

[SELFofGOD]

gotta love the athiest humor :lol:

the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

Just my other 2 cents

Agreed.

In this forum now purely for entertainment.
Next time some one posts another quote from the NT or OT I will post another athiest humor pic.
Can not have a logical discussion if the other party will not even try to look outside his beliefs without constantly thinking " This Must be the Devils work "

Allmost reminds me of The Water Boy lol
" GIRLS ARE THE DEVIL !!! " etc
:saevil:

 

[B5150]

Dunn... I don't think we humans give ourselves enough credit.

We follow a God blindly even when he asks us to do something WE KNOW in our heart and soul and every shred of our being that what he is telling us to do is wrong. And when one of us stands up and asks questions.. questions that aren't supposed to be asked...We are given what you just told me. Trust in the lord. It will work out.

Diversions I say. We are smarter than this. We find solutions and answers to everything as humans but when we are dealing with the sensitive topic of our Bible God, we refuse to bury deep into the mystery. We just "trust" it. That is not in me to do as a human.

I will never trust in any God we humans have come up with. We humans cannot comprehend the maker of our universe and he is not from any Religion man has designed.

Every God from every Religion is man made. We don't know God.

"Round in a circle we march and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and knows."

It did not say to simply trust and it will work out. It also stated to lean not on your own understanding and in all of your ways acknowledge him.

Personalize your statement - When do YOU follow God blindly even when he asks YOU to do something YOU KNOW in YOUR heart and soul and every shred of YOUR being that what he is telling YOU to do is wrong?

If you live by your nature you can expect it's fruit. When you are living supernaturally (outside of your natural human tendency) you begin to experience a supernatural life - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You cannot walk and talk faithlessly and expect to reap the fruits of the faithful. It does not work like that.

Human's give themselves plenty of credit. Just ask one - they'll tell you all they've accomplished on their own.

Religion is a man made set of rules - Faith is a relationship. The religion god you refer to is not the God I have a personal relationship with.

 

[DR.D]

... Now, torture is a human invention. It is found nowhere in the animal kingdom. It is only prevalent in human society. ...

So, we are not animals? You admit we are more than just animals?? You said it, brah.

This IS your time to repent, while you still live. Hell is not about torment for the sadistic pleasure of your judge, eternal torment is the most potent motive and deterrent for not living your life in ignorance and denial. Hell is a negative incentive. It's designed to inspire you to obey God's will, and heaven is God's reward of appreciation for those who do. Don't you get fired if you screw the boss over at work, but don't you get a bonus or promotion if you excel? Even Earthly jobs and tests follow this same criteria. Plus, there won't be any jails in heaven. You won't be allowed to enter the gate and spoil it for everybody else if you don't demonstrate here on Earth that you're willing to behave in God's will. So if not hell, where would the others go? There must be a hell. Basically, you'll get in wherever you fit in, and the only people in hell are the ones that wanted to be there.

Just like any test (yes, life is a test) when the class bell rings you put down your pencil and turn in your test. It is going to receive a grade whether you answered all the questions on not. There are no retests next week if you slept in late for class and didn't finish all the questions. There is no "everybody is a winner" like the libtard's Utopian dream we live in today. In reality, there will be winners that met the criteria and losers like you that want their cake and eat it too. It's your decision.

 

[DR.D]

gotta love the athiest humor :lol:

the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

Just my other 2 cents

What about your own conscience? It's not God you have to worry about AE, it's your own conscience that will testify against you after death. Any guilt in your life? Just eliminate it, because you'll get what you gave in the end.

 

[bigsexy74]

The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.

 

[AE14]

What about your own conscience? It's not God you have to worry about AE, it's your own conscience that will testify against you after death. Any guilt in your life? Just eliminate it, because you'll get what you gave in the end.

Ahh the Buddhist/Hindu concept of Kharma. Which predates Christian theology by centuries.

All seriousness, I cannot imagine that there is something deep down in my mind that would send me in the wrong direction (assuming there is a wrong direction).

 

[DR.D]

Ahh the Buddhist/Hindu concept of Kharma. Which predates Christian theology by centuries.

Yes, a very similar concept. But this applies only to guys like you (agnostics) that are unaware of God. For believers and atheists there will be direct judgment.

All seriousness, I cannot imagine that there is something deep down in my mind that would send me in the wrong direction (assuming there is a wrong direction).

Sounds like you're not in a bad spot then. Life can still be quite rewarding from your position.

 

[AE14]

Yes, a very similar concept. But this applies only to guys like you (agnostics) that are unaware of God. For believers and atheists there will be direct judgment.



Sounds like you're not in a bad spot then. Life can still be quite rewarding from your position.

We will all find out eventually

 

[DR.D]

The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.

This is true! "Hell" is not the second death, just the grave (1'st death.)

 

[RenegadeRows]

Dr D -

With you 100%.

Good to see your still around, as well!

-Jon

 

[chocolatemilk]

Personalize your statement - When do YOU follow God blindly even when he asks YOU to do something YOU KNOW in YOUR heart and soul and every shred of YOUR being that what he is telling YOU to do is wrong?

I'll tell you what he is asking me to do right now that's wrong...

He is asking me to follow a book (the Bible), in which the God of the book, brings nations to war, kills, and asks of others to kill in his name.

It goes against my deep morals to follow such a book, morals that I will admit were installed in me from the same book to begin with! Love all things and people REGARDLESS of ANYTHING.

He is asking me to follow him, and he is wrong in what he does.

If you live by your nature you can expect it's fruit. When you are living supernaturally (outside of your natural human tendency) you begin to experience a supernatural life - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You cannot walk and talk faithlessly and expect to reap the fruits of the faithful. It does not work like that.

I don't have to believe in the Bible God to live a spiritual life. I live a very spiritually fulfilling life... more satisfying then you think.

I talk of faith, I believe in a "Higher Form of Intelligence" that surpasses human capability... because let's face it, we are the most special thing walking the earth as know it. We are intelligent life.

I don't reap any fruits I have not planted.

Religion is a man made set of rules - Faith is a relationship. The religion god you refer to is not the God I have a personal relationship with.

I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?

You won't be allowed to enter the gate and spoil it for everybody else if you don't demonstrate here on Earth that you're willing to behave in God's will. So if not hell, where would the others go?

You know what's flawed about what you said right here D... Ok, you agree that bad people cannot be put in heaven. Now, we are all sinners. We sin constantly. It's impossible to live a perfect life.

What happens all of the sudden when we get to heaven? Is it sinless in there? Do we change forms so we cannot sin? What is gonna stop us from sinning in heaven?

There must be something.

So then, why don't bad people just be put through this spiritual cleansing that is needed to enter heaven. Why put anyone in hell? You know a process must be undergone anyways that transforms us humans into perfect beings that qualify for heaven. Why not make the bad people perfect beings when you CAN. What kind of a sick God wouldn't do this to all of his creations if he COULD. And he can, and does, and will.... to some. Not all loving as he proclaims IMO.

Just like any test (yes, life is a test) when the class bell rings you put down your pencil and turn in your test. It is going to receive a grade whether you answered all the questions on not. There are no retests next week if you slept in late for class and didn't finish all the questions.

I have had many a times where the teacher has allowed me to re-test. There is no re-tests with God is what you're saying. My goodness are humans showing more compassion than Almighty God? It appears so the more I move through life.

 

[B5150]

I'll tell you what he is asking me to do right now that's wrong...

He is asking me to follow a book (the Bible), in which the God of the book, brings nations to war, kills, and asks of others to kill in his name.

It goes against my deep morals to follow such a book, morals that I will admit were installed in me from the same book to begin with! Love all things and people REGARDLESS of ANYTHING.

He is asking me to follow him, and he is wrong in what he does.



I don't have to believe in the Bible God to live a spiritual life. I live a very spiritually fulfilling life... more satisfying then you think.

I talk of faith, I believe in a "Higher Form of Intelligence" that surpasses human capability... because let's face it, we are the most special thing walking the earth as know it. We are intelligent life.

I don't reap any fruits I have not planted.



I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?

You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

If you read further in that same book, in the New Testament, you will find a New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ.

Christ is asking you to follow Him and He is not wrong it what He did or does. Get to know Him and you may find you have a different understanding of God, His ways and His will all together.

 

[youngandfree]

You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

If you read further in that same book, in the New Testament, you will find a New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ.

Christ is asking you to follow Him and He is not wrong it what He did or does. Get to know Him and you may find you have a different understanding of God, His ways and His will all together.

Excellent point. The OT God of wrath and destruction sent his son Jesus, as a sinless sacrifice to create a new contract or covenant. Where did Jesus inflict death and destruction?

 

[youngandfree]

This is very true D. However, with this ideology, a court ruling would always be considered an erroneous conclusion. So would many other things.

There are numerous things that we can NEVER prove. It's just impossible to know for a sure fact that the Genesis story was borrowed from the Sumerian tablets logically speaking, however, I do believe we have smoking gun evidence for this.



Oh but it does. Believing in a God could surely lead to destruction.

I will be 100% honest with you... when I was a deep Christian, I would hope everyday that some world disaster occurred. I wanted a big war to happen. And I think MANY believers in Christ WANT bad things to happen. Why? So that Jesus can come again.

Can you believe that? I lived my life hoping for war, famine, destruction, all so that my "savior" would come.

Horrible mode of thinking. Planting a seed like that in your mind where you welcome destruction is a disgusting seed to plant in yourself and leads to a mentally retarded person incapable of being truly compassionate.

And for me... and many of you (I know many of you want the same things I did), it was my belief in God that fully welcomed destruction with open arms.

You never really stated why you felt this way. Wanting war and destruction so the savior will come seems a bit twisted. There are very specific things listed in the Bible that will happen before Jesus will return. Just creating war and famine isn't going to make it happen. One thing that must happen is the Temple must be rebuilt. Last I checked it hasn't yet. Israel has to be attacked and their attackers Will be destroyed in such a way that only God could do to protect his chosen people. All nations will turn against Israel, which is slowly happening. So if you followed Christ and know what will happen before his return, you would have known it is still a ways off.

 

[SELFofGOD]

You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.

 

[youngandfree]

Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.

You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a

 

[youngandfree]

Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.

You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a relationship with God. In the OT you couldn't have a personal relationship with him, you just went to the temple and the Priest interacted with God on your behalf. When Christ died on the cross, the old rules where changed. You can't argue how bad the God od the OT is without finishing the story and seeing how God changed things.

Jesus never sinned. Never had anyone killed. He transformed one of the greatest persecutors of Christians, Saul, into the greatest apostle, Paul. He transformed a murderer from the inside out. You can't just ignore the rest of the book.

 

[SELFofGOD]

You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a

This is a popular scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and crazy laws commanded by their god.
The NT Demands that the old laws be adhered :

Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament

God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell.

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die"

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..."

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." 2 Peter 20-21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Matthew 5:17

All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17

This is YOUR god not mine.

You can not call yourself a Christian and IGNORE the OT.
But in any case I gave you some examples.

 

[SELFofGOD]

By the way I am not ignoring the book , YOU are my friend.

Same God Same Beliefs Same Laws

 

[B5150]

Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

Lets do this one at a time. You seem to selectively quote scripture that skews the observer to see it the way you would like. The previous portion of that chapter is very telling:

1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, "Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are."

3 But Joab replied, "May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord's subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?"

4 The king's word, however, overruled Joab; so Joab left and went throughout Israel and then came back to Jerusalem. 5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.

6 But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king's command was repulsive to him. 7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel.

8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

I stand on my statement that He is just and righteous in His judgment of man's disobedience. You seem to think you can judge what is right and wrong in the site of God and then judge what is just in recompense for your disobedience. God does not need your approval.

Why did God punish King David
for taking a CENSUS?

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Q. The books of 1Samuel and 1Chronicles discuss King David and his taking of a census. Why was David punished by God for doing this? Is taking a census a SIN?

(Submitted by: Zozo)

A. The taking of census is not a sin – but the REASON for doing it could be:

"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chronicles 21:1, KJV, emphasis throughout)

Satan moved in spiritual warfare against the whole nation of Israel – not just the king. With his cunning ways the devil set out to entice David to sin by numbering his army – which David did!

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Samuel 24:1, KJV)

The above verse in the King James Version Bible tends to give a WRONG understanding to the reader. The 1Chronicles 21:1 KJV verse quoted earlier and the below scripture quote from the Young's Literal Translation Bible (YLT) offers a more accurate explanation of what transpired.

"And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and an adversary [Satan] moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.' " (2Samuel 24:1, YLT)

It was SATAN that moved David to disobey God. David seems to have been prompted by a feeling of pride and ambitious curiosity. Because he did this to determine HIS power and to trust in it, it offended God. Of itself, taking a census is not unlawful.

Looking at the above verses we can know that there is an evil intent by their content. Anytime Satan is involved you can be sure he intends to get someone to sin! He put the thought in David’s mind that if he knew the number of young men under his rule (meaning those fit for war) he could brag or boast how great a king he was – by the size of his army!

"And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why then doth my lord require this thing? WHY WILL HE BE A CAUSE OF TRESPASS TO ISRAEL?" (1Chronicles 21:2-3, emphasis added)

Joab was warning David NOT to number Israel and bring an occasion of punishment to the nation. In Hebrew, the word "sin" is often used synonymously with the punishment of sin. In the course of Providence, the people frequently suffer for the misconduct of their rulers.

The primary reason in the Old Testament for taking a census was to know the size of a nation's army and its ability to win wars against other people!

"And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers." (Numbers 1:1-4)

"As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai." (Numbers 1:19)

I'll close with a quote from Easton's Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

"Besides the numbering of the tribes mentioned in the history of the wanderings in the wilderness, we have an account of a general census of the whole nation from Dan to Beersheba, which David gave directions to Joab to make (1Chronicles 21:1). Joab very reluctantly began to carry out the king's command. This act of David in ordering a numbering of the people arose from pride and a self-glorifying spirit. It indicated a reliance on his part on an arm of flesh, an estimating of his power not by the divine favor but by the material resources of his kingdom. He thought of military achievement and of conquest, and forgot that he was God's vice-regent. In all this he sinned against God.

"While Joab was engaged in the census, David's heart smote him, and he became deeply conscious of his fault; and in profound humiliation he confessed, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done." The prophet Gad was sent to him to put before him three dreadful alternatives (2Samuel 24:13; for "seven years" in this verse, the LXX. and 1Chronicles 21:12 have "three years"), three of Jehovah's four sore judgments (Ezekiel 14:21). Two of these David had already experienced. He had fled for some months before Absalom, and had suffered three years' famine on account of the slaughter of the Gibeonites. In his "strait" David said, 'Let me fall into the hands of the Lord.'

"A pestilence broke out among the people, and in three days swept away 70,000. At David's intercession the plague was stayed, and at the threshing-floor of Araunah (q.v.), where the destroying angel was arrested in his progress, David erected an altar, and there offered up sacrifices to God (2Chronicles 3:1).The census, so far as completed, showed that there were at least 1,300,000 fighting men in the kingdom, indicating at that time a population of about six or seven millions in all."

We can pick apart the others later.

 

[SELFofGOD]

Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.