The 2012 bug is catching on!

so that means god I assume......

Or is it something, like Dr. D said, that still needs to be searched?

One thing science cannot explain is God yes, but there are other things sir!


Take for instance the phenomena of science- there are MANY things science cannot explain- they have theorys of it of course- but no concrete evidence of how or why it works!


Same thing with God- you cannot disprove Gods existence- nor can you prove it- but there is SO much that SUGGESTS He IS!
 
and if we could understand or explain God- He wouldnt be God
 
One thing science cannot explain is God yes, but there are other things sir!


Take for instance the phenomena of science- there are MANY things science cannot explain- they have theorys of it of course- but no concrete evidence of how or why it works!


Same thing with God- you cannot disprove Gods existence- nor can you prove it- but there is SO much that SUGGESTS He IS!

I respect what you are saying, however since the argument for a good portiono f this thread has pertained to jesus as messiah, there is substantial proof why he couldnt be, as I have explained before.
 
Again, just based on interpretation. Nowhere in that quote is there a reference to anything about a second coming. Also bear in mind this is NT text and not OT which is what we were refering to previously

At Genesis 3:15 where God says "he will crush your head" this is in the time frame of the 2nd coming of christ when the devil will be destroyed. The final blow. That is my interpretation anyway.

What would yours be?
 
I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

What is there that suggests a God exists?

Creation- not evolution my friend choco! But creation itself- i will speak of my own experience here

Every single snowflake that ever falls- is different none are alike

If the earth where any closer or further from the sun life couldnt exist


Look at the mountins the ocean things like that

sure this can attempt to be explained by science- but even scientist are starting to point to the idea of a creative intellegence!

Big bang theroy is actually a theory of a creative intellegence
 
I respect what you are saying, however since the argument for a good portiono f this thread has pertained to jesus as messiah, there is substantial proof why he couldnt be, as I have explained before.

But there is also evedence He could be too
 
Creation- not evolution my friend choco! But creation itself- i will speak of my own experience here

Every single snowflake that ever falls- is different none are alike

If the earth where any closer or further from the sun life couldnt exist


Look at the mountins the ocean things like that

sure this can attempt to be explained by science- but even scientist are starting to point to the idea of a creative intellegence!

Big bang theroy is actually a theory of a creative intellegence

I can't remember the exact quote from Einstein, but I will summarize the words he gave before his death...
The more and more I delve into the universe and all things there in, the more I come to the realization that this could not have happened by chance, and the more and more I recognize the existence of some all knowing being.
 
I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

What is there that suggests a God exists?
Great question CM. For me the question answers itself. ALL things denote there is a God. Everything I see in the heavens and the earth point to Him who created all.
 
At Genesis 3:15 where God says "he will crush your head" this is in the time frame of the 2nd coming of christ when the devil will be destroyed. The final blow. That is my interpretation anyway.

What would yours be?
To be honest, I would need to get a look at the total quote. I find it very difficult to automatically turn something into meaning it. I agree, our interpretations will certainly vary

But there is also evedence He could be too
However, according to the OT, the messiah would have to fufill all characteristics, not some. That is the issue
 
I can't remember the exact quote from Einstein, but I will summarize the words he gave before his death...
The more and more I delve into the universe and all things there in, the more I come to the realization that this could not have happened by chance, and the more and more I recognize the existence of some all knowing being.

It's interesting you bring up Einstein because I was going to do the same with what happend to me today.

So anyway, I happend to go get my mail today and a friend of mine shows up out of nowhere on his bike. He didn't exactly know where I lived but he drove around my complex and just happens to run into me. We start talking and he starts asking me how I'm doing. I'm telling him not so well, I'm going through some hard times right now. He proceeds to tell me all the right words that I need to hear. The very things I complained about to my wife he understood and comforted me in a time when I needed it most. He told me the devil wants to see you fail but showing that you will continue to serve God despite your trials proves him a liar. We can serve God despite trials. He told me as long as your doing the best you can, it doesn't matter how little it looks to other people. It was just what I needed to hear at just the right time. I felt like God sent a angel to comfort me. Coincidence?? Impossible, things like this have happend to me too many times.

Going back to Einstein he said, "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous"
 
To be honest, I would need to get a look at the total quote. I find it very difficult to automatically turn something into meaning it. I agree, our interpretations will certainly vary

However, according to the OT, the messiah would have to fufill all characteristics, not some. That is the issue

Christ did fulfill them- all look up the messianic prophecy
 
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

" Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, son."

"Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All those terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them? "

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.

"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Him? "

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated(?).

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you if that's okay. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies, frowning. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes.

The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.

We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.

We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.

Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.

If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains; "that for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.

Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids you can buy, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.

"Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?

The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's observable science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. What you call "science" too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "No sir, I mean-Your view of science is flawed. To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.

Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life and that animals gave birth to children of other kinds!.

Young man, the professor began tersely, I believe that science will eventually....

"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."

There follows a long pause as the Professor stares the young Christian down without a word.

"And sir!, the student went on. Don't You create failure?! I mean, you set a standard for passing this class, sir and those who don't meet it, fail! Isn't that right? So by setting a standard and utilizing your previously expressed philosophy--you create failure! Professor, I mean has anybody ever flunked this class"?

"I may well be looking at such a someone right now", the Professor snarled!

"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"

No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.

1 Peter 3:14

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear ; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
 
"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"



"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."


1 Peter 3:14

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear ; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Amen, very nice illustration!

The interesting thing about the theory of evolution is by definition, it's not even scientific. The belief of evolution can be compared to a religious belief. It sure is a matter of faith, no physical evidence yet so many have just accepted it as "science".

"Science is simply a term man made when he discovered what GOD created" ;)
 
I simply say bravo DD!!!! That was a perfect illustration of what I myself have tried so poorly to express... I think when not on my Droid I would like to post the history behind the word science itself.... fascinating reading!!!
 
Dunn, great story to open up a nice discussion. I laugh when someone says "I'm a man of Science," as if presenting Science as a bullet proof belief, founded on an immovable rock. Ha...

Science is not complete. It is nowhere near complete. We do not understand everything about our universe. We don't understand spontanous generation from quantum fluctuations of the "Big Bang THEORY." Let's not forget the big bang is simply a theory. Even the big bang theory lies on 2 assumptions: that on large scales, the Universe is homogenous and isotropic. I won't get into detail because that's not the point here... The point is that something NEEDS to be true (something we can never prove), in order for the "Big Bang theory" to be plausible. Oh how much faith a man of Science rests on without even knowing it.

Put your speakers up and check this out:

A fellow member showed me this, Jasen.
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Play with this a bit, it will give you an idea of how small we are. It hurts my heart sometimes to know how insignificant we are, and that with all our knowledge, it just looks impossible to understand everything that is happening from our small vantage point of Earth.

We built ridiculous telescopes like the Hubble, send them into the far reaches of our solar system, just to take a snapshot of this:

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Maybe 0.00000001% of our Universe. And this is as far as we've gotten to even see with our own eyes. Some things seem impossible to see, for instance, one can never see the whole Universe, never. Our eyes just cannot grasp the entire detail into focus. It is too large. I think God is this large. We could be living on God but he is just too large to see.

I believe we are still too early in the advancement of the human species to begin to accept what a "God" is, and where our Universe came from. The hearts and minds of men are still like babies in their evolution into intelligence. Make no mistake about it, if we don't kill ourselves, we will advance, and maybe, just maybe, we might come to understand our physical reality and at that moment, will God be revealed to us.
 
I would rep u david- but i cant well said brother!
 
the first thirty seconds sums it up- God is TOO BIG to understand- but that does not mean one cannot experience Him!

In essence then, if god is too big to understand, all of our discussion revolve (as we knew) around the argument of blind faith. I think for many that is something that is very hard to swallow (blind faith). I know for me it is as well
 
Make no mistake about it, if we don't kill ourselves, we will advance, and maybe, just maybe, we might come to understand our physical reality and at that moment, will God be revealed to us.

I think we are certaintly on the path of destruction. Have you ever thought about it like this? Many people say man is destroying the earth, which they are but have you ever thought that earth is actually fighting back? I firmly believe that we were ment to live here and no where else. Before we ruin the earth the earth itself would make sure we stop. Built in survival tactics. That's what I believe would happen if life went on without God's divine intervention.
 
I think we are certaintly on the path of destruction. Have you ever thought about it like this? Many people say man is destroying the earth, which they are but have you ever thought that earth is actually fighting back? I firmly believe that we were ment to live here and no where else. Before we ruin the earth the earth itself would make sure we stop. Built in survival tactics. That's what I believe would happen if life went on without God's divine intervention.

I agree Flaw. Very interesting concept. I do believe we are headed down the path of destruction. I believe we are destructive by nature...

You know, there is a species of monkeys that get into territory warfare with other groups of monkeys of their own species. When one groups wins by killing all the males, they take all the females and bring them back to their territory. The females are then awarded as sex slaves to the monkey who killed the most males.

We humans have no doubt practiced this throughout history. It seems the more intelligent a species becomes, the more destructive they become also. We are becoming more destructive! Where do you see God's divine intervention that is stopping us from our path to destruction?
 
... Where do you see God's divine intervention that is stopping us from our path to destruction?

The more I think about it and study society, the more it seems something powerful and benevolent must be at work in the sublime (Holy Spirit?), constantly intervening to avert cataclysmic destruction. We probably don't even know the half CM, because it never gets publicized! In fact, it really blows my mind that we've lasted this long with all the reckless things man does to the planet and to one another. I don't know if it's gonna be 2012 exactly, but it seems almost certain that it's just a matter of time. The hearts of men grow colder and colder, and greed flourishes as whole nation's economies are poised to pop. I'm not a doom and gloom kinda guy, but something has got to give man, or it's an inevitable result of this gross imbalance.
 
The more I think about it and study society, the more it seems something powerful and benevolent must be at work in the sublime (Holy Spirit?), constantly intervening to avert cataclysmic destruction. We probably don't even know the half CM, because it never gets publicized! In fact, it really blows my mind that we've lasted this long with all the reckless things man does to the planet and to one another. I don't know if it's gonna be 2012 exactly, but it seems almost certain that it's just a matter of time. The hearts of men grow colder and colder, and greed flourishes as whole nation's economies are poised to pop. I'm not a doom and gloom kinda guy, but something has got to give man, or it's an inevitable result of this gross imbalance.

Agree with the both of you, and CM I don't believe its God's job to save us from ourselves.... where would the justice be in that. Just like we ourselves let our own children, and in my case my seven children with number eight on the way, just suffer from the reckless decisions they some times make...
Regardless though... we humans are destroying our own humanity one bit at a time... and believe me when I tell you... war is an ugly thing. For me, actually being hunted by the enemy is a feeling I never want to feel again, nor is it one I wish upon anyone... perhaps that is how the believers felt under the reign of Nero????
 
Ok my brothers, got a few PM's on the quote above asking about what it was like to feel this hunted feeling as well as the Army thing. I felt it was just easier to explain here.
Now by no means is this solo to me. Every day thousands of our nation's finest patrol in harms way every day. However, only hundreds these days do this in a truly hostile environment. The hardest thing to do on my first deployment was getting in that truck and roll out that gate. It was driving that was the most dangerous thing in Iraq. That is where people were getting killed. It is at these times that one has to "Man up" and just do it. We have been trained to put the mission first, and that is what happens everyday there in combat zones. At one time I actually made eye contact with a guy standing off to the side of the road counting the vehicles as they went by. When he reached my truck, he stopped and began pushing a button on his cell phone. It was then we made eye contact and there was a hesitation. He finally recovered and blew the IED, but it was right behind me. It sent shrapnel through my vehicle, a soft skin non armored HUMVEE, but no one was injured. I thanks God over and over that day, because had the 155 round had hit my truck full on it would have killed us all.
When I did get injured my first time in Iraq, I remember laying in pain on a gurney in Balad Iraq just reeling because of the pain. However, no one was over working on me. I grew angry and looked to the other part of the hospital room where everyone was at. It was then I saw the young Marine battling for his life. They were doing everything they could to save him and both his arms. It was then that I changed a second time. It was one of those times when one's pain means nothing, and I had never felt so ashamed. I manned up again and began praying for that kid, no more than 18 years old. I also watched as they rolled his battle buddy with a sheet pulled over his head next to me and park the body right next to mine. Things like that change you and better prepares one for dealing with larger issues in life.
When I went out the 2nd time to Iraq, I was walking up and down the Iranian border almost daily. We had Iranian forts within mortar range, and watched them aim at us time and time again, but there was no fear this time. I had grown and knew that it was not yet my time. That didn't make me reckless, but better made me able to lead those who looked to me to help keep them alive.
I thank God every day that I was able to come home through these hard times alive. For those who do not believe in the existence of God, I must beg to differ. I saw his hand daily.
 
It was then I saw the young Marine battling for his life. They were doing everything they could to save him and both his arms. It was then that I changed a second time. It was one of those times when one's pain means nothing, and I had never felt so ashamed. I manned up again and began praying for that kid, no more than 18 years old. I also watched as they rolled his battle buddy with a sheet pulled over his head next to me and park the body right next to mine. Things like that change you and better prepares one for dealing with larger issues in life.
When I went out the 2nd time to Iraq, I was walking up and down the Iranian border almost daily. We had Iranian forts within mortar range, and watched them aim at us time and time again, but there was no fear this time. I had grown and knew that it was not yet my time. That didn't make me reckless, but better made me able to lead those who looked to me to help keep them alive.
1 Peter 5

To Elders and Young Men

To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.
 
1 Peter 5

Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

I think my friend that the being Humble part is the hardest... I pray all the time that I may be humble so that I do NOT have to be humbled. Pride is enmity, and overcoming ones pride is the struggle of mankind. It has killed millions, and that is the body of men not just the soul.
Thanks for the words my brother!
 
wisdom in these last few posts spiritual wisdom
 
I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

Absolutely amazing documentary.

What do you guys think of this?
 
I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

Absolutely amazing documentary.

What do you guys think of this?


certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.

one other thing to add which is back from our original discussion, how many of you have seen Religulous? Please keep the Bill Maher hate to a minimum (I am not a fan either). His documentary is somewhat interesting and relates to our topic
 
I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

Absolutely amazing documentary.

What do you guys think of this?

Do I take the red pill or the blue pill? It seems a little out there to say a chair is no longer there if you don't observe it. And my only criticism of WELL ESTABLISHED SCIENCE is the Anglia University scandal putting out deceptive SCIENCE on global warming. When the leading scientist in that field get caught making up evidence or covering up what doesn't match their intended objective, I take it with a grain of salt. With that being said, I can't think of any agenda these people would have. I'm just not buying what they are selling.
 
certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.

one other thing to add which is back from our original discussion, how many of you have seen Religulous? Please keep the Bill Maher hate to a minimum (I am not a fan either). His documentary is somewhat interesting and relates to our topic

hmmm I am with AE on this one. very interesting, but I don't understand it fully. Would love to watch that and see some of what they were saying. Where did you see it CM??? Might try to youtube it when I get a free minute.
Never saw the Bill Maher piece either... man I have a lot of catching up to do. Agree with YandFree though... I tend to be very cautious about what science says is proven. Look at the 1 thing that we have had years and years of research on. It is tangible, one can touch it, and yet with all the scientific understanding in the world, we still to this day cannot reproduce or even predict it... what is this awesome phenomenon??? the weather...
Great discussion once again CM! :veryhappy:
 
A much simpler example of what of chocolatemilk is talking about is sound. Sound can simply be described as an impulse of energy which causes waves to travel at a certain frequency. These waves cause vibrations. If there is no receptor around to convert those vibrations into what we "hear" then there is no "sound" as we know it. The old tree in the forest and nobody around to hear it. If you look at it that way, it makes sense that on an atomic level, atoms exist as energy or waves and until our receptors convert that energy into what we "see" or observe, they only exist as waves of energy.

On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.

I may have oversimplified things a bit much.

I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
 
If you go back a few posts, I mention specifically the ones he doesnt fufill, which is why he was never recognized by the jews as a messiah

One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.
 
A much simpler example of what of chocolatemilk is talking about is sound. Sound can simply be described as an impulse of energy which causes waves to travel at a certain frequency. These waves cause vibrations. If there is no receptor around to convert those vibrations into what we "hear" then there is no "sound" as we know it. The old tree in the forest and nobody around to hear it. If you look at it that way, it makes sense that on an atomic level, atoms exist as energy or waves and until our receptors convert that energy into what we "see" or observe, they only exist as waves of energy.

On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.

I may have oversimplified things a bit much.

I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
As we know it...yet it does exist. Our inability to comprehend does not make void the existance of the uncomprehendable.

Man has discovered and explained the power of God at work and has called it science. As a matter of fact science has already validated a good portion of the first statement in Genesis.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
 
DD,

I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
 
I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
agree with this. I have stated before. I believe that God is the Master Scientist. He knows and understands things that we cannot even grasp.

One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.

I love that prophecy in Isaiah 44-45 that Cyrus reads and then acts as the catalyst to bring the Jews back to build the temple. He was a pagan to the Jews, but brought about much good to them. However, we need to be careful with the term "Messiah" as a noun or an adjective. In this case, he was viewed as a great "Messiah" based upon his role as a "Deliverer." This was a title of description based on his historic actions, not his devine birth or role.
However!!!!! he is not, nor ever has he been referred to as "THE Messiah," the Anointed One (or the Christ to use the Greek). Orthodox Jews still await that coming. Their view of the Messiah is he of the lineage of David who is to rule and reign while simultaneously defeating all the Jews' enemies. THis is what many scholars who are Christian refer to as the Millennial Messiah. He who is set to rule and reign after the SECOND Coming of Jesus.
Also, Jesus was hailed as THE Messiah by the Jews in Jerusalem right up until his death. At that point, they changed it from Messiah to great Rabi, for the true Messiah, in their view, would not be put to death (that is by those who did not convert to Christianity). They do not, as Christians do, recognize the Servant Messiah... he who was to FIRST save the world from their inward enemy and sins (See Isaiah 53 referred to as the 4th Servant Song) and then come again in the fulfillment of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times as the Conquering Messiah set to vanquish the world from physical enemies.
 
As we know it...yet it does exist. Our inability to comprehend does not make void the existance of the uncomprehendable.

Man has discovered and explained the power of God at work and has called it science. As a matter of fact science has already validated a good portion of the first statement in Genesis.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
^^ This^^
DD,

I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
I would also add - Who abides by them - as well
 
DD,

I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
You and I are in agreement. You stated my sentiment more clearly. Thank you.

EDIT: Hence my quote "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Science has established that there was a beginning, there there was a creation, but has failed to substantiate evidence to give credit to a Creator...yet.
 
One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.

It is really silly IMO or anyone to think that the Messianic prophecies were fufilled. There were countless at the time who were trying to fufill, and also failed in the same manner as Yeshua.
 
It is really silly IMO or anyone to think that the Messianic prophecies were fufilled. There were countless at the time who were trying to fufill, and also failed in the same manner as Yeshua.

I agree. I just find it ironic given the current state of affairs.
 
I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

Absolutely amazing documentary.

What do you guys think of this?

It is true that nothing is real until it is observed. The problem is that we literally impose a reality through that observation. So we see an isolated component of reality that we can detect, and ONLY what we can detect. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg of all possible realities. Quantum waves collapse under observation to form reality. We are all waves of energy, being held together by resonate forces that create our subjective human impression of a physical reality. In an objective sense, it's really not what it seems though! It's something more like The Matrix or along those lines.

Just a few months ago a study revealed that our eyes emit a form of energy that literally impacts it's target. It's the reason you can "feel" somebody watching you, even if you can't visually locate them. This makes it easier to understand how observation modulates reality.

The Bible states that ALL things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. That means if you can think it, then it's necessarily a reality option that is lawfully achievable. That doesn't mean man should pursue ALL things though, and that's how we fell out of grace, reaching for advanced knowledge before we were a mature enough species to receive it with the discernment to properly apply it. Now we are basically on time out, for playing in the street when we were told not to. It's for our own safety from a loving but disappointed parent, it's not some stupid pointless punishment. That's where satan exploits a man if that man has no standard of spiritual discernment, he offers powers (money, knowledge) in exchange for worshiping him and pushing his agenda. He took Christ to the top of a hill while Christ was vulnerable, and offered Him the same deal, but Jesus didn't take the bait. ;)
 
certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.

It's hard to understand without going through quantum physics. But in quantum theory (the theory that brings you computers, satellites, lasers, weapons of mass destruction--the theory that will excel us into the far future) it states that particles are just waves of potentials (they don't exist) UNTIL an observer observes the particle (at that moment, the potentials all collapse into one potential and put that particle in space time).

Now change a particle to a chair.... and the same laws apply :)

Very weird.

Do I take the red pill or the blue pill? It seems a little out there to say a chair is no longer there if you don't observe it. And my only criticism of WELL ESTABLISHED SCIENCE is the Anglia University scandal putting out deceptive SCIENCE on global warming. When the leading scientist in that field get caught making up evidence or covering up what doesn't match their intended objective, I take it with a grain of salt. With that being said, I can't think of any agenda these people would have. I'm just not buying what they are selling.

I didn't want anyone arguing quantum theory. You cannot compare this at all to that scandal and you MUST accept what I said. It lays at the foundation of our most marvelous technological advancements yet. This is proven and established by some of the greatest minds in the world: Bohr, Einstein, Shrodinger... etc. This is real stuff we are dealing with proven through experiments. Trust me youngandfree... denial was my first thoughts about this. You are forced to accept it in the end. It is proven.

On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.

It is not a stretch Atj. You call yourself a religious man in your next post... what lies at the heart of Christianity? That God dwells within us. It lies in Hinduism that we are all part of the divine spark. It has been said through history that we (Mankind) is of divine essence. I don't doubt it. Look at us, and look at the rest of the universe. I swear we are more marvelous than all of the universe.

Also...

You are always observing yourself. It's impossible not to. So YOU will always be there by your own observation. But how do you know about other people? How do you know they don't become waves of energy when you don't observe them (through all your senses). You can never catch them in the act of being waves of energy... yet science has PROVEN they become so. What do you make of this?

It is true that nothing is real until it is observed. The problem is that we literally impose a reality through that observation. So we see an isolated component of reality that we can detect, and ONLY what we can detect. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg of all possible realities. Quantum waves collapse under observation to form reality. We are all waves of energy, being held together by resonate forces that create our subjective human impression of a physical reality. In an objective sense, it's really not what it seems though! It's something more like The Matrix or along those lines.

Just a few months ago a study revealed that our eyes emit a form of energy that literally impacts it's target. It's the reason you can "feel" somebody watching you, even if you can't visually locate them. This makes it easier to understand how observation modulates reality.

Well said D. You understand it very well.

I wanted to ask you, why did the fish, in the bottom of the pits of the ocean, begin developing an air bladder millions of years before it set foot on land... as if knowing this was the eventual plan.

Is this God's plan? Did God plan this?

If so, it seems God operates under his own scientific rules. He doesn't seem to break them. He didn't magically put lungs in the fish. He did it through the natural worlds laws.

I feel as though God would not simply appear to human beings in the same sense that he follows the natural worlds laws. Your mind may see him in a dream, it may see him in a hallucination... but I doubt God truly enters our reality. I feel as though the prophetic visions humanity have had were more of a mind's construct then Gods. What do you think?
 
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