Ecdysterone? Anyone heard of this?

[Mixelflick]

I did receive it for free to log for 12 weeks, during which time my chest measurement increased by 1.5" and my waist measurement decreased by 1.0" in addition to essentially doubling the number of reps for working sets on squats (225x10 > 225x20, 275x4 > 275x8) and my bench improved as well (225x3 >225x6 and 250x3). Of course, that ended 7 weeks ago now, and I've made more improvements in the 7 weeks since then (225x9 bench and 315x7 squat). I bought a few bottles on sale to try with my own routine, which I'm doing now, but when they're gone, I'm not sure if I'll buy it again; stuff's expensive, very expensive. As for AmentoMax, which is amentoflavone, cooper69 did some write ups on it: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/240886-amentoflavone.html and http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/255669-coops-corner-7-a.html. I think it's a useful supplement.

Thanks for all the help you've given me. I appreciate it.

No problem man, enjoy helping people.

That's good to know about HMB-FA. Were you using a particular routine or other supps at the time?

PA, perhaps?

I'm just skeptical of "free logs", given they tend to skew user feedback in a positive way (not saying that applies to you though, please know that)...

 

[koi1214]

Curious to know if you were using any Ecdy during this time?

+

No just basics like fish oil,ubiquinol,Vit D, and a probiotic/greens formula.I am saving some cash up to get Mass Pro Synthagen 2 bottle combo.
Thanks Again Rob!!

 

[Mixelflick]

Mixel if you had the choice between turkesterone or ecdysterone which would you use for a body recomp? and what dosages?

Ecdy, with the caveat it was genuine,full spectrum Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract. 100mg/day (and no less) in two divided doses, with EAA's, BA, Orotic Acid, TMG, Magnesium Asparate etc. Each of these plays a part in protein synthesis, the energy status of the cell etc.Very complimentary IMO, which is why you see them in my formulas with RCE...

 

[Mixelflick]

+

No just basics like fish oil,ubiquinol,Vit D, and a probiotic/greens formula.I am saving some cash up to get Mass Pro Synthagen 2 bottle combo.
Thanks Again Rob!!

Sure thing brother. Reason I asked is, those loading patterns go particularly well with products that recover you quickly/feed the CNS. In most, 7-10% increase is common when those are in play. 5% is nothing to sneeze at though, because 10lbs on the bar is significant. Especially when just 6 workouts ago, just 1 extra pound, was impossible to push.

Congrats man. May have been my information, but you added the elbow grease/hard work...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No problem man, enjoy helping people.

That's good to know about HMB-FA. Were you using a particular routine or other supps at the time?

PA, perhaps?

I'm just skeptical of "free logs", given they tend to skew user feedback in a positive way (not saying that applies to you though, please know that)...

I completely understand what you are saying about sponsored logs. With that said, I kept track of weight lifted in workouts, body part measurements, and took progress pictures. Hell, the way I see it, I have no reason to give a favorable review on something I got for free. They're not going to make me pay for it I don't like it, and they're not going to give me more if I do. Certain things are more prone to getting favorable reviews when given out for free, in my opinion anyway. Something like a pre-workout, where people often base their review on things that are hard to quantify, like pump, energy, and focus, seem to have this happen in reviews quite often, while something where people base their reviews on gains in size and strength is more concrete. Personally, I believe the HMB-FA is a conditionally beneficial supplement, based on my experience with it. The training protocol I did in the 12 week log was the same one used in the Tampa study that had the hard-to-believe results. During the first phase (3x per week full body workouts) I noticed good gains in strength and size, during the second phase (5x per week full body workouts) I kept setting PRs on lifts even after hitting the same muscles for a few days in a row. However, in the last phase of the log (the taper, which was less intense), I noticed literally zero improvement.

I didn't start taking PA until the 12 week HMB-FA log was done. I'm into the 8th week of running the two together though, and in that time, I've put on ~4lbs while my chest measurement and leg measurements have gone up 1/4" each, my waist has gone down 1/4", and my calves have gone up 1/2" (they're a weak point for me, so even now they're still small). I've also gone from 225x6 on bench to 225x9, and from 275x8 on squat to 275x12. I think PA is a great supplement.

Back on topic, luckily for me I have some bulk BA and TMG powder to add to the ecdy and EAAs. My goal is to continue my progress, and I think that ecdy will help me do this.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Another quick question:

I noticed that you mentioned including orotic acid and magnesium aspartate with ecdy. I can't seem to find a standalone orotic acid supplement, but I did find some magnsium orotate, which should be magnesium and orotic acid, no? If it's the right stuff, it seems cheap enough to add if it can be beneficial. I think I can estimate roughly how much orotic acid is in Synthagen based on its placement between BA and TMG.

 

[Mixelflick]

I completely understand what you are saying about sponsored logs. With that said, I kept track of weight lifted in workouts, body part measurements, and took progress pictures. Hell, the way I see it, I have no reason to give a favorable review on something I got for free. They're not going to make me pay for it I don't like it, and they're not going to give me more if I do. Certain things are more prone to getting favorable reviews when given out for free, in my opinion anyway. Something like a pre-workout, where people often base their review on things that are hard to quantify, like pump, energy, and focus, seem to have this happen in reviews quite often, while something where people base their reviews on gains in size and strength is more concrete. Personally, I believe the HMB-FA is a conditionally beneficial supplement, based on my experience with it. The training protocol I did in the 12 week log was the same one used in the Tampa study that had the hard-to-believe results. During the first phase (3x per week full body workouts) I noticed good gains in strength and size, during the second phase (5x per week full body workouts) I kept setting PRs on lifts even after hitting the same muscles for a few days in a row. However, in the last phase of the log (the taper, which was less intense), I noticed literally zero improvement.

I didn't start taking PA until the 12 week HMB-FA log was done. I'm into the 8th week of running the two together though, and in that time, I've put on ~4lbs while my chest measurement and leg measurements have gone up 1/4" each, my waist has gone down 1/4", and my calves have gone up 1/2" (they're a weak point for me, so even now they're still small). I've also gone from 225x6 on bench to 225x9, and from 275x8 on squat to 275x12. I think PA is a great supplement.

Back on topic, luckily for me I have some bulk BA and TMG powder to add to the ecdy and EAAs. My goal is to continue my progress, and I think that ecdy will help me do this.

Appreciate the detail. That Tampa study was brutal, not surprised you ran it though. Still, I was hoping to hear about +16lbs of LBM etc. If it worked like that in the real world, I'd be the FIRST to sing its praises and use it in my product. Unfortunately, I've seen precious few (standalone) "this stuff works"!!! logs, where they DIDN'T change their training routine, diet etc..

I like and respect several of the researchers there, but it's clear several (Nissen in particular), had a horse in that race. I'll give it another year in the real world, to see if anyone reports mind blowing results. I only have so much for supps every month, you know?

I need to spend it on known winners...

 

[Mixelflick]

Another quick question:

I noticed that you mentioned including orotic acid and magnesium aspartate with ecdy. I can't seem to find a standalone orotic acid supplement, but I did find some magnsium orotate, which should be magnesium and orotic acid, no? If it's the right stuff, it seems cheap enough to add if it can be beneficial. I think I can estimate roughly how much orotic acid is in Synthagen based on its placement between BA and TMG.

You're right, it SHOULD be the ideal combo containing both. Unfortunately, when I ran it in a Synthagen prototype (and it was VERY close to final), it wasn't up to par. At least insofar as including the amounts of both separately. Believe me, would have been easier/cheaper.

But 'twas not to be. You can try of course, nothing wrong with that...

 

[braskibra]

no offense mixel, but the same reasons you are disposing of HMB FA (changing routines etc) is the same thing you promote with the use of ecdy (increase eaas, meal timing, changing your workout etc), just saying.

 

[koi1214]

Another quick question:

I noticed that you mentioned including orotic acid and magnesium aspartate with ecdy. I can't seem to find a standalone orotic acid supplement, but I did find some magnsium orotate, which should be magnesium and orotic acid, no? If it's the right stuff, it seems cheap enough to add if it can be beneficial. I think I can estimate roughly how much orotic acid is in Synthagen based on its placement between BA and TMG.

Doesn't MAN have an Orotic Acid product?

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/man/orotine-224-caps.html $34.99
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-magnesium-orotate-40-mg-60-caps $6.99
^^^^^^^^ Has both magnesium and orotic acid.

 

[Mixelflick]

no offense mixel, but the same reasons you are disposing of HMB FA (changing routines etc) is the same thing you promote with the use of ecdy (increase eaas, meal timing, changing your workout etc), just saying.

Understand your point, but not true. HMB-FA debuted to an avalanche of pre-market hype, specifically citing that study. They also elected to go with a company that has one of (if not THE) biggest advertising budgets to play with, in the world of sports nutrition.

Nobody implied drug like results with Ecdy (i.e. +16lbs in LBM in 12 weeks as seen with HMB-FA). And there are plenty of guys who've used either Synthagen, E-bol or other Ecdy supplements and their own training/diet, that got fantastic results.

Prior to Synthagen, I was one of them (Zebutol, Anabolica, Retibol etc). See attachment below..

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Appreciate the detail. That Tampa study was brutal, not surprised you ran it though. Still, I was hoping to hear about +16lbs of LBM etc. If it worked like that in the real world, I'd be the FIRST to sing its praises and use it in my product. Unfortunately, I've seen precious few (standalone) "this stuff works"!!! logs, where they DIDN'T change their training routine, diet etc..

I like and respect several of the researchers there, but it's clear several (Nissen in particular), had a horse in that race. I'll give it another year in the real world, to see if anyone reports mind blowing results. I only have so much for supps every month, you know?

I need to spend it on known winners...

I know what you're saying. The cheapest I've seen HMB-FA is $50 for a 4 week supply on sale, and the normal price is around $60. That's a lot of money. PA on the other hand, is much more affordable; I picked up a few bottles of the re-formulated King for $24 a piece, each of which is a 30 day supply. Even iForce ECDY comes out to just over $1 a day, as opposed to the normal price of HMB-FA, which is just over $2 a day. If the price comes down a bit, I'd say HMB-FA worth having, provided your training is set up to take advantage of it. For now, it's nice, if money is not an issue.

 

[Mixelflick]

ZOE Discoveries (NOT Labs) Ecdysterone was a 5-alpha-hydroxy laxogenin sublingual, as was Anabolica. These are analogues of Ecdy derived from Diosgenin, I have Dr. Syrov's papers detailing such.

Zebutol cited 10mg of Suma Sterol extract, though what they were extracting for remains a mystery. There are many compounds in Suma (see below)

Suma extract contains a compound known as beta-ecdysterone, so we know there's Ecdy in it (likely multiple, given there are 476 thus far identified). Also contains many amino acids, electrolytes, iron, zinc, magnesium, vitamins A, B1, E, and K. And germanium, which is an immune system booster and speculated oxygenation agent, to muscle cells.

Laxogenin I could write books about. Wait, I already did...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You're right, it SHOULD be the ideal combo containing both. Unfortunately, when I ran it in a Synthagen prototype (and it was VERY close to final), it wasn't up to par. At least insofar as including the amounts of both separately. Believe me, would have been easier/cheaper.

But 'twas not to be. You can try of course, nothing wrong with that...

Damn. That's too bad. What's your opinion of creatine orotate + magnesium aspartate? I can't find seem to find any standalone orotic acid supplements.

 

[Mixelflick]

Never used creatine orotate, so can't really speak to it. If it was super-effective, I'd only question why other companies don't use it? Perhaps they don't want to pay the patent holders..

Mg Asparate is the absolute best form IMO, though citrate and picolinate are also acceptable. You do NOT want what's found in most drug stores (check a bottle out, to see if what I'm saying is true). It's Mg OXIDE. Complete crap IMO, your body has a very difficult if not impossible time absorbing it. You're better off flushing it IMO...

This goes for almost all minerals: Look for apsarates, picolinates or citrates. Much higher bio-availability and worthy of your hard earned dollars. I'd also encourage you to take your minerals at night if not training, as they tend to naturally relax the body. People with calf/foot cramps for example, experience first night relief when I get them on Mg Asparate...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Never used creatine orotate, so can't really speak to it. If it was super-effective, I'd only question why other companies don't use it? Perhaps they don't want to pay the patent holders..

Mg Asparate is the absolute best form IMO, though citrate and picolinate are also acceptable. You do NOT want what's found in most drug stores (check a bottle out, to see if what I'm saying is true). It's Mg OXIDE. Complete crap IMO, your body has a very difficult if not impossible time absorbing it. You're better off flushing it IMO...

This goes for almost all minerals: Look for apsarates, picolinates or citrates. Much higher bio-availability and worthy of your hard earned dollars. I'd also encourage you to take your minerals at night if not training, as they tend to naturally relax the body. People with calf/foot cramps for example, experience first night relief when I get them on Mg Asparate...

Got it. I suppose I'll just try the magnesium orotate, since I can't seem to find any orotic acid. While it's not ideal, I'd assume it's better than nothing. Or would it be better to just have magnesium aspartate and no orotic acid?

Also, I saw Peak ATP is included in Synthagen. I can pick some up at what seems to be a good price. Should I?

 

[braskibra]

And what studies are we going to cite with Ecdy? Russian literature from the 80's in which it outperformed DBOL? The only quality study I have read is:Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone.

I am not interested in turning this into a literature debate but I am seeing a lot of the same patterns and excuses when ecdy (you used the wrong extract, didnt time it properly, etc) does not pan out similar to the HMB-FA camp (you didn't work out hard enough)

I would think, if you had a genuine belief that Ecdy worked, it would be relatively easy to run a fairly basic study in conjunction with a university. IRB approval, 10-20 subjects, 8 weeks. 10 experimental, 10 control . Or even more basic Ecdy plus protein = X% increase in MPS vs Protein only (essentially validating previous work).

Considering how much time you've vested in the subject it would be logical to back it up with hard data

 

[Mixelflick]

Some OA is better than no OA, as it re-cycles ATP in 3 different ways. Credit to Joey Rodruiges for mass introducing it, way back when. I was surprised to discover that like Ecdy, it was discovered/its use refined in the former Soviet Union...

1.) The production of ribose moieties (R-1-P and R-5-P) for the salvage or de novo synthesis of purine nucleotides (see attachment)

2.) By increasing the levels of nucleotides (mostly Uridine Monophosphate, or UMP), the "draw" on ATP reserves to synthesize them is decreased. More around for muscle contractile force..

3.) By means of elevating intracellular glycogen stores, via glycolysis. That alone leads to enhanced capacity for ATP re-synthesis*
*Glycolysis literally means, the splitting of sugars.

PeakATP is a controversial ingredient, I understood that when I included it. I do believe it elevates ATP, just not to the extent the marketing speaks to. That's why I included Orotic Acid. You wind up not only with a surplus of ATP, but the means to re-generate it through multiple pathways. Many report it works better for them than Creatine. Their words, not mine. For my money, it increases blood flow for up to 6 hours. This brings the goodies in MPS to where we want them to go, your muscles...

The last pic is one of me, such that you know I'm not some fat guy reading medical studies...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Some OA is better than no OA, as it re-cycles ATP in 3 different ways. Credit to Joey Rodruiges for mass introducing it, way back when. I was surprised to discover that like Ecdy, it was discovered/its use refined in the former Soviet Union...

1.) The production of ribose moieties (R-1-P and R-5-P) for the salvage or de novo synthesis of purine nucleotides (see attachment)

2.) By increasing the pool of ), which rBy increasing the levels of nucleotides (mostly Uridine Monophosphate, or UMP), the "draw" on ATP reserves to synthesize them is decreased. More around for muscle contractile force..

3.) By means of elevating intracellular glycogen stores, via glycolysis. That alone leads to enhanced capacity for ATP re-synthesis*
*Glycolysis literally means, the splitting of sugars.

PeakATP is a controversial ingredient, I understood that when I included it. I do believe it elevates ATP, just not to the extent the marketing speaks to. That's why I included Orotic Acid. You wind up not only with a surplus of ATP, but the means to re-generate it through multiple pathways. Many report it works better for them than Creatine.

Their words, not mine. The last pic is one of me, such that you know I'm not some fat guy reading medical studies...

If you want to see something interesting regarding Peak ATP supplementation, look at one of the Tampa studies on HMB-FA. In addition to a HMB-FA group, they had a Peak ATP and HMB + ATP group do the 12 week training protocol I mentioned earlier in regards to the Tampa study. The Peak ATP was dosed at 400mg per day. Here's the results after 12 weeks for each group:

Supplementation with ATP and HMB-FA increased strength gains over the 12-week study (ATP*time, p < 0.05 and HMB*time, p <0.05, respectively). Strength gains following training were greatest in the HMB-FA+ATP group, followed by the HMB-FA, ATP, and placebo groups respectively. No significant interaction (HMB-FA*ATP*time, p > 0.05) was observed indicating that the HMB and ATP supplementation effects were additive. During the overreaching cycle, strength declined in the placebo (-4.5%) group, but this decline was blunted in both the ATP (-2%) and HMB-FA (-.5 %) groups. Surprisingly, the HMB-FA+ATP group continued to gain strength (+1.2%). Over the 12-weeks of training vertical jump power increased to the greatest extent in the HMB+ATP group, followed by the HMB-FA, ATP, and placebo groups, respectively. The percentage increases in vertical jump power were synergistic with HMB-FA and ATP supplemented in combination (HMB-FA*ATP*time, p < 0.004). Vertical jump power during the overreaching cycle decreased more in the placebo group, 5.0±0.4%, compared with the smaller decreases in vertical jump power for the HMB-FA, ATP, and HMB-FA+ATP supplemented groups, 1.4±0.4, 2.2±0.4, and 2.2±0.5%, respectively, over weeks 9 and 10 (t-test, p < 0.05). Lean body mass was increased in an additive manner by 2.1±0.5, 7.4±0.4, 4.0±0.4, and 8.5±0.8 kg in placebo, HMB-FA, ATP, and HMB-FA+ATP-supplemented participants, respectively (t-test, p < 0.05), and fat percentage only decreased in the HMB supplemented groups...

Our results suggest that HMB-FA, ATP, and the combination can enhance LBM, and strength, in an additive manner, with power increasing synergistically when HMB-FA and ATP are combined. These supplements also appear to blunt the typically overreaching response seen to high volume, low recovery training cycles.

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/S1/P17

Interesting.

I've actually been wanting to add some Peak ATP to my supplement arsenal, so why not now.

 

[Mixelflick]

And what studies are we going to cite with Ecdy? Russian literature from the 80's in which it outperformed DBOL? The only quality study I have read is:Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone.

I am not interested in turning this into a literature debate but I am seeing a lot of the same patterns and excuses when ecdy (you used the wrong extract, didnt time it properly, etc) does not pan out similar to the HMB-FA camp (you didn't work out hard enough)

I would think, if you had a genuine belief that Ecdy worked, it would be relatively easy to run a fairly basic study in conjunction with a university. IRB approval, 10-20 subjects, 8 weeks. 10 experimental, 10 control . Or even more basic Ecdy plus protein = X% increase in MPS vs Protein only (essentially validating previous work).

Considering how much time you've vested in the subject it would be logical to back it up with hard data

I'm spending time with my son. Head on over to ergo-log dot com and punch ecdysterone in the tool bar. Probably won't be enough to convince you, but many of those are done in Western Universities, not the former Soviet Union. Did I put MPS out to a select group before bringing it to market? Sure did.

Did I fund a university study?No. Why?

1.) Didn't have the $
2.) People would have screamed, "but he funded it, of course its positive"!!

Look man, would love to do this for all the doubters. Until then, if you're skeptical I'd use something else. I don't say that in a flippant way, OK? But if those studies plus the feedback on MPS/other quality Ecdy's don't convince you, I wouldn't waste any more time (IF I was you).

Personally speaking, I have 30 years in the game (powerlifting) and a 20 year history with the compound. I've swallowed it, used transdermals, sublinguals and yes, even injected it.

No question in my mind: It works...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

So, it looks like this is going to be ECDY stack on workout days:

Taken pre and post workout:

50mg RCE (iForce ECDY)
6g EAAs (Now Amino-9)
Magnesium Aspartate*
Peak ATP**
2-2.4g Beta Alanine (I'm already taking this)
1.125g TMG (I'm already taking this)

notes:
*Not certain on magnesium dosing. I was going to go 200mg with each dose, but any capsules that'd let me get that exact amount are, for whatever reason, significantly more expensive than capsules that have 133mg each. So, I'm thinking of doing 133mg with each ecdy dose, or perhaps 133mg with one dose, and 266mg with another?
**Similar problem with the Peak ATP. The powder is significantly more expensive than the pills that I can get bogo right now. Each capsule contains 125mg ATP. Some studies use 1 dose of 400mg ATP daily, while others use 2 doses of 200mg ATP daily. I'm not sure if I should just run 1 dose of 375mg, or 1 dose of 250mg and 1 dose of 125mg. 375mg should be pretty damn close to 400mg; I'm not stressing over the difference for the amount of money I'm saving with the capsules vs the powder.

Additionally, beta alanine and TMG will be taken with each dose of ecdy, but I didn't mention them above, since I'm already taking BA and TMG; what I mentioned above are supplements I am not currently taking. (edit: I decided to list them above,for ease of reading.)

Mielflick, does this sound good? Anything you'd change/add?

 

[Grayson]

I think if you're going to supplement ecdy properly: just take ecdy per mixel's rx.

You have too many variables to deduce its effectiveness.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here's an interesting study on magnesium orotate:

In a double-blind randomized study, 23 competitive triathletes competing in an event consisting of a 500-meter swim, a 20-km bicycle race, and a 5-km run were studied after 4-week supplementation with placebo or 17 mmol/d Mg orotate. The tests were carried out without a break. Blood was collected before and after the test, and between the different events for assaying energy stress and membrane metabolism. Swimming, cycling, and running times decreased in the Mg-orotate group compared with the controls. Serum glucose concentration increased 87% during the test in the control group and 118% in the Mg-orotate group, while serum insulin increased 39% in the controls and decreased 65% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous O2 partial pressure increased 126% during the test in the controls and increased 208% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous CO2 partial pressure after the bicycle race decreased 66% (significantly) in the Mg-orotate group compared with 74% in the controls. Blood proton concentration decreased to 90% in the Mg-orotate group (significantly) compared with 98% in the controls. Blood leukocyte count increased from 5.92/nL to 11.0/nL in the controls and from 5.81/nL to 9.10/nL in the Mg-orotate group, a significant difference. Serum cortisol was lower in the Mg-orotate group before and after the test compared with the controls. CK catalytic concentration after the test was elevated 140% in the controls compared with 122% Mg-orotate group. The stress-induced modifications of energy and hormone metabolism described in this study indicate altered glucose utilization after Mg-Orotate supplementation and a reduced stress response without affecting competitive potential.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9794094

Of course, triathlons are pretty different from weightlifting, but this is a study done on competitive athletes, which is more than most studies can say.

The dose used, 17mmol/day, comes out to 5.69g of magnesium orotate, which should come out to 348mg of magnesium, which should leave 5.342g of orotic acid.

 

[kissdadookie]

Not a fan of HMB-FA at all. Unless you've gained nearly 16lbs of muscle in the past 12 weeks (and lost fat/gotten ridiculously stronger), toss it. Those figures btw, are from the HMB study that was used to promote the stuff.Even if they're true, no product can live up to that. Hell some steroids don't do this..

Amento max I'd need a link, but glycerol and caffeine are fine.

Hey now, I ran the HMB-FA for the 12 week log (using my own training and diet) and bought two more bottles to run with ArA. I like the stuff but it's only conditionally beneficial. Night and day difference on recovery with vs without.

I gained a total of around 12-14 lbs in 2 weeks and 20 lbs on bench (dumbbell bench so I guess it can count as 40 lbs?), some fat but after 2 weeks of lower carbs and calories, I basically shedded some water and some fat. I'd say from first hand experience, the HMB-FA works (HMB-Ca probably would have worked as well if dosed higher and maybe 2 hours pre-workout).

Again, stuff is conditionally beneficial and the benefits mainly come in inhibition of protein breakdown rather than being anabolic (leucine beats HMB for stimulation of mTOR, most likely because leucine also spikes the insulin response but the HMB doesn't).

Not something that would work for everyone as there really need to be that balls to the walls training stimulus present (essentially you're doing a lot more work but being able to recover from it due to the HMB, but of course, this is counter-intuitive to how most people look at supplements where they want anabolic effects with no change in everything else they are doing).

Amentoflavone works great as well. You get a few extra reps out throughout your workout basically in the first week of using it. Solid ingredient and it's great that it's available as a stand-alone ingredient now as opposed to being included in formulas where I may not necessarily care or want some of the other things it's mixed together with.

 

[Mixelflick]

*Not certain on magnesium dosing. I was going to go 200mg with each dose, but any capsules that'd let me get that exact amount are, for whatever reason, significantly more expensive than capsules that have 133mg each. So, I'm thinking of doing 133mg with each ecdy dose, or perhaps 133mg with one dose, and 266mg with another?

A. Total daily dose of 450mg Mg Asparate, Citrate of Picolinate will suffice. Personally, I take ZMA prior to bed. Minerals naturally relax the body, and should be taken at night IMO. With respect to spreading it out over the course of the day, I can see that working as well. Especially when paired with Ecdy, TMG, PeakATP etc. At some point you're carrying a tackle box around with you though, which makes things cumbersome.

**Similar problem with the Peak ATP. The powder is significantly more expensive than the pills that I can get bogo right now. Each capsule contains 125mg ATP. Some studies use 1 dose of 400mg ATP daily, while others use 2 doses of 200mg ATP daily. I'm not sure if I should just run 1 dose of 375mg, or 1 dose of 250mg and 1 dose of 125mg. 375mg should be pretty damn close to 400mg; I'm not stressing over the difference for the amount of money I'm saving with the capsules vs the powder.

A. Good man. Solid reasoning...

Additionally, beta alanine and TMG will be taken with each dose of ecdy, but I didn't mention them above, since I'm already taking BA and TMG; what I mentioned above are supplements I am not currently taking. (edit: I decided to list them above,for ease of reading.)

Mielflick, does this sound good? Anything you'd change/add?

A You can add a LOT of things to Ecdy, but ultimately it becomes cost prohibitive. That's why I crafted Synthagen to be everything in one shot. Don't get me wrong, I love good quality raws insofar as customizing, etc. I think there's beauty in simplicity though, so here's my daily supp schedule..

* Synthagen per my training/non-training day recommendations
* 3x's/day I take the following: 1 gram of Vit C, 200IU of NATURAL Vit E and 200mg of R-ALA with 1mg of biotin
* A high potency multi VITAMIN (not mineral) in the AM
* 1 to 2 grams of NAC
* Prior to bed: 2-3 caps of Tranquilogen, 3 caps ZMA, 10mg of Melatonin
* When (not if, LOL) I get up to use the John, I dose 5g of GABA. Great way to get back to sleep and research showing quite a boost in GH. Up to 550% in one study (Univ. of Milan, Italy). Even if it only doubles it, that's multiple GH spikes your competition isn't getting...

Of those, NAC is likely the sleeper. It's

1.) Cheap as dirt,
2.) Is a fantastic way to boost glutathione (body's most prolific endogenous anti-oxidant)
3) Has research showing faster recover/faster fat loss.(1)

(1) One study from Germany published in the Journal of Molecular Medicine found that subjects supplementing with NAC for eight weeks lost about 5 percent of their body fat without making any changes to their diet. This is even more impressive when you consider the fact that the group taking the placebo gained more than 5 percent body fat over those same eight weeks. The German researchers concluded that NAC aids fat loss by reducing insulin’s ability to interact with fat cells.

With respect to glutathione: According to research from Victoria University of Technology in Australia, it does that by increasing levels of cysteine within muscles, and because cysteine is required to restore glutathione to its active form, that explains why NAC was shown to increase levels of activated glutathione before, during and after exercise.

All this antioxidant protection is important for keeping muscle damage under control during heavy training. New studies from Bairro University in Brazil and the University of Oklahoma have shown that muscle soreness and damage are reduced and muscle recovery is enhanced when subjects supplement with NAC before performing eccentric exercise, which is designed to cause severe muscle damage.

BOTTOM LINE: NAC can enhance muscle recovery by decreasing the breakdown of muscle membranes and other important muscle-cell components.


*

 

[Mixelflick]

Sorry I haven't been around guys, Gramma died last week and Grampa is taking it HARD.

He's 94 years old and lost without her, took him to the cemetery this week. They were married for 70 years, how often do you see that nowadays? They went through everything together. Both dropped out of school in the 6th grade, to go to work/help their families. Later, he put her through college and then he went. They graduated together, and stayed together until the very end. Gramma suffered from Alzheimer's, Gramps is still pretty sharp.

One thing I've learned though is this: Sarcopenia (age related loss of muscle) is real, and it's the difference between life and death in some cases, literally. Especially the legs. Once the wheels go, its a downward spiral. Most become wheelchair bound, the weight comes on and... it gets worse from there. Strength training plus cardio literally is the fountain of youth. Anti-catabolics are also a must, IMO. Whether it's PA, Synthagen or HMB-FA - whatever works for you. Because every pound of muscle is precious at that age, and every pound that's lost likely isn't coming back...

She was the best Gramma I could have every hoped for, and legit never had a bad word to say about anyone. Here's her obit...

http://obits.masslive.com/obituaries/masslive/obituary.aspx?pid=172737602

If you were blessed with Grandparents that are still around, reach out today. It means SO much to them, and the greatest generation has lessons that'll help us all...

 

[koi1214]

Sorry to hear about your Grandma.My thoughts and prayers are with you & your family brother!

 

[Grayson]

Sorry I haven't been around guys, Gramma died last week and Grampa is taking it HARD.

He's 94 years old and lost without her, took him to the cemetery this week. They were married for 70 years, how often do you see that nowadays? They went through everything together. Both dropped out of school in the 6th grade, to go to work/help their families. Later, he put her through college and then he went. They graduated together, and stayed together until the very end. Gramma suffered from Alzheimer's, Gramps is still pretty sharp.

One thing I've learned though is this: Sarcopenia (age related loss of muscle) is real, and it's the difference between life and death in some cases, literally. Especially the legs. Once the wheels go, its a downward spiral. Most become wheelchair bound, the weight comes on and... it gets worse from there. Strength training plus cardio literally is the fountain of youth. Anti-catabolics are also a must, IMO. Whether it's PA, Synthagen or HMB-FA - whatever works for you. Because every pound of muscle is precious at that age, and every pound that's lost likely isn't coming back...

She was the best Gramma I could have every hoped for, and legit never had a bad word to say about anyone. Here's her obit...

http://obits.masslive.com/obituaries/masslive/obituary.aspx?pid=172737602

If you were blessed with Grandparents that are still around, reach out today. It means SO much to them, and the greatest generation has lessons that'll help us all...

Stay strong, Rob. Our thoughts are with you and your family.

 

[alvin1]

Sorry for your lost big man!

 

[kissdadookie]

Sorry I haven't been around guys, Gramma died last week and Grampa is taking it HARD.

He's 94 years old and lost without her, took him to the cemetery this week. They were married for 70 years, how often do you see that nowadays? They went through everything together. Both dropped out of school in the 6th grade, to go to work/help their families. Later, he put her through college and then he went. They graduated together, and stayed together until the very end. Gramma suffered from Alzheimer's, Gramps is still pretty sharp.

One thing I've learned though is this: Sarcopenia (age related loss of muscle) is real, and it's the difference between life and death in some cases, literally. Especially the legs. Once the wheels go, its a downward spiral. Most become wheelchair bound, the weight comes on and... it gets worse from there. Strength training plus cardio literally is the fountain of youth. Anti-catabolics are also a must, IMO. Whether it's PA, Synthagen or HMB-FA - whatever works for you. Because every pound of muscle is precious at that age, and every pound that's lost likely isn't coming back...

She was the best Gramma I could have every hoped for, and legit never had a bad word to say about anyone. Here's her obit...

http://obits.masslive.com/obituaries/masslive/obituary.aspx?pid=172737602

If you were blessed with Grandparents that are still around, reach out today. It means SO much to them, and the greatest generation has lessons that'll help us all...

Heart goes out to you brother.

 

[Mixelflick]

Many thanks everyone, it's my Grampa though I'm worried about. Please include him in your prayers...

Thank you

 

[Garyboy]

My condolences to you and your family, Rob.

 

[koi1214]

Many thanks everyone, it's my Grampa though I'm worried about. Please include him in your prayers...

Thank you

Will do and stay strong!

 

[Mixelflick]

OK back on schedule: How are people doing with iForce Ecdy here?

Has been several weeks, so I was hoping for some consolidated feedback...

 

[Joshlm69]

IronForged Most Wanted has just been released. Huge amounts of ecdysterone. Think its $80. Its Lax + Ecdy, looks insane

 

[Mixelflick]

I'll give it a look. Thanks for the heads up!

PS where are they selling this? Don't see it at nutraplanet yet...

 

[Mixelflick]

I just found it..

Points on the Laxogenin/cyclodextrin component. Too bad about focusing on 20-Hydroxyecdysterone. They mention it's found in RCE/Cyanotis Vaga and Suma, but they're not using Suma. What source genus (RCE or Cyanotis Vaga), are they extracting the 20H from?

Many thanks..

 

[ELROCK]

I'll give it a look. Thanks for the heads up!

PS where are they selling this? Don't see it at nutraplanet yet...

They are selling it at TGB.

 

[Mixelflick]

Got it, just read the write up. It seems no Ecdy product is perfect, at least in my eyes. I've used GRAMS worth of 20-H orally, transdermally, sublingually and even an intra-nasal preparation. Only the transdermal at 1 gram+/day yielded any benefit, and it was marginal at that. I've even injected RCE, so have a good base from which to compare these orals, transdermals/sublinguals. And yes, the injection experiment was fantastic...

But I'm happy for them too. I hope it all works out...

 

[kissdadookie]

Mixel, thoughts on laxogenin? Is the nitrogen retention increase actually supposed to be there/one of the effects? I haven't noticed much in that aspect. I have noticed that it works somewhat like an adaptogen and has quickly brought my stimulant tolerance back down (kind of reminds me a bit of Humanofort, but not quite, Humanofort also provided a pretty acute positive effect on my sleep).

 

[ma70]

Got it, just read the write up. It seems no Ecdy product is perfect, at least in my eyes. I've used GRAMS worth of 20-H orally, transdermally, sublingually and even an intra-nasal preparation. Only the transdermal at 1 gram+/day yielded any benefit, and it was marginal at that. I've even injected RCE, so have a good base from which to compare these orals, transdermals/sublinguals. And yes, the injection experiment was fantastic...

But I'm happy for them too. I hope it all works out...

So you're not too hopeful on the cyclodextrins helping out?

 

[Mixelflick]

Cyclodextrins are great with some chemicals that have poor bio-availability, but Ecdy isn't one of them.If so inclined though, you want the beta version (there are 3 types, see below). Beyond faster acting and a lower mg amount needed, I see no distinct advantages. In fact, Mark Theirman (chemist who originally synthesized Lax from Diosgenin) once told me it didn't make any difference. He made the raws for many companies venturing into the Laxogenin waters, but never delivered any with the cyclodextrin. That's the company's doing, and it's largely marketing appeal..

3 types of cyclodextrin:

α (alpha)-cyclodextrin: 6-membered sugar ring molecule
β (beta)-cyclodextrin: 7-membered sugar ring molecule
γ (gamma)-cyclodextrin: 8-membered sugar ring molecule

You can get away with a lower total mg amount with cyclos and they get Ecdy into circulation faster, but beyond that they offer no advantage over orals.

 

[koi1214]

IronForged Most Wanted has just been released. Huge amounts of ecdysterone. Think its $80. Its Lax + Ecdy, looks insane

I just found it..

Points on the Laxogenin/cyclodextrin component. Too bad about focusing on 20-Hydroxyecdysterone. They mention it's found in RCE/Cyanotis Vaga and Suma, but they're not using Suma. What source genus (RCE or Cyanotis Vaga), are they extracting the 20H from?

Many thanks..

Lol $80 and they are not even using RCE!

 

[Mixelflick]

Mixel, thoughts on laxogenin? Is the nitrogen retention increase actually supposed to be there/one of the effects? I haven't noticed much in that aspect. I have noticed that it works somewhat like an adaptogen and has quickly brought my stimulant tolerance back down (kind of reminds me a bit of Humanofort, but not quite, Humanofort also provided a pretty acute positive effect on my sleep).

I've spoken to Laxogenin many times before. The chief advantage is you're not waiting on nature (it's synthesized from Diosgenin), and a lower mg amount is needed. I've use just about every conceivable Lax out there (plenty of fakes). Below, you'll see two lax products: "Anabolica" and ZOE Discoveries "Ecdysterone". Both were sublinguals, and the raws for these products were made by Mark Theirman..

Nitrogen retention is claimed for Laxogenin, yes. For my money though, it's anti-inflammatory/recovery benefit really stood out. The man who ran Beyond a Century (Warren, since deceased) once told me he sold "caseloads" to Lupus patients (Anabolic).

No surprise to me...

 

[Mixelflick]

Not using RCE and they got the wrong Ecdy (20H)

Awful...

 

[Mixelflick]

Have to go train guys, then Superhumanradio.com at noon.

The Blueprint Power Hour, every Tuesday at noon... :wavey:

 

[koi1214]

Not using RCE and they got the wrong Ecdy (20H)

Awful...

LMAO:rocketwhore:

 

[Mixelflick]

Just back from Gainsville, getting ready to go on air..

I'm toying with the idea of a sterile Synthagen for injection. If my guy can do it (no names), it's a done deal. Orally, it's gold IMO for lightening fast recovery. I can't even imagine what it'd be like in a "super concentrated transdermal", LOL

 

[ma70]

Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I may just use this thread to provide some random anecdotal feedback of Mass Pro Synthagen. I'm starting my run next week.

 

[Danes]

Just thought I'd throw this out there, but I may just use this thread to provide some random anecdotal feedback of Mass Pro Synthagen. I'm starting my run next week.

MassProSynthagen is a one man army product!
Dosing it like this:
5 caps prior workout, 5 caps during workout and 5 caps post workout. (Yes 15.caps at day). Run like this 2-3 months. Its amazing

I am glad Mixelflick wrote his opinion on this new ecdy/laxo product.

I was on my way to pull the trigger (order 6 bottles of Most Wanted) but i changed my mind. Dont want to pay 480$ for a product that dont gives me info about ecdy source
I can allways test this product if IFN want a experienced ecdy user. I know what to expect from adaptogens.