Ecdysterone? Anyone heard of this?

[Shocker279]

Nausea,stomach ache/upset and diaerhea er typicaly TMG/betaine sides

Nah I'm pretty sure it's the ecdysterone because I've used TMG at 3 grams per day for a long time and did not notice any bad effects

 

[Mixelflick]

Ecdy does wonders for the skin...

This is reported frequently. There are studies (below) speaking to this, as well as patents for topically applied Suma to heal wounds faster. MPS amplifies this effect though, via 2 other ingredients. Too long to go into here...
http://www.ergo-log.com/ecdysteroidsyoungerskin.html. One other thing I forgot to mention was finger/toenail growth. When you're on a quality Ecdy and taking a good whack of it, your nails grow like crazy. Tell me if I'm right on that... ;-)

With respect to stomach upset and MPS, honestly first time I've heard it. I have a suggestion though that may help: Take either with Tums or ideally, one tab of alka-seltzer. AS dumps the contents of your stomach into the duodenum, and may be just what the Dr. ordered. On the hypo, not sure what to tell you there. It was designed to improve glucose disposal..

Thank you for the comments on Tranquilogen. It suffers from being overshadowed by Synthagen, but really is a cool little product. It doesn't take much either. One cap in the AM and one on the PM. It's an exceptional analgesic, conveys stress relief and in most allows them to fall asleep easier. Curcumin, Rhodiola, 5-HTP, Picamilon and Astaxanthin.

 

[Danes]

Nah I'm pretty sure it's the ecdysterone because I've used TMG at 3 grams per day for a long time and did not notice any bad effects

its not ecdysterone. I bet!
I have ultra sensitive stomach! Cant handle betaine,forskolin and maaaany other ingredients but ecdy even 2g at day never made my stomach upset. Ecdy does not upset stomach either.

 

[Danes]

Nah I'm pretty sure it's the ecdysterone because I've used TMG at 3 grams per day for a long time and did not notice any bad effects

is MPS the only supp u use right now?

 

[Shocker279]

No it's not but I know its the MPS because i've used it by itself and I get the same problems. I know it's the ecdy because I've used all of the other ingredients in MPS for years and never had an issue with them. Still a great product as the recovery was amazing I just can't stomach it I guess.

Yeah tranquilogen is definitley the most underrated sleep supplement out there. There is definitely some serious synergy with the ingredients because nothing relaxes me and puts me to sleep like the way it does.

 

[Danes]

No it's not but I know its the MPS because i've used it by itself and I get the same problems. I know it's the ecdy because I've used all of the other ingredients in MPS for years and never had an issue with them. Still a great product as the recovery was amazing I just can't stomach it I guess.

Yeah tranquilogen is definitley the most underrated sleep supplement out there. There is definitely some serious synergy with the ingredients because nothing relaxes me and puts me to sleep like the way it does.

Ever tried ecdysterone/ecdysteroids without any other ingredients?
If not then i will say ecdy is NOT causing your upset stomach and all studies done on animals and humans by ICPS (no one have got upset stomach).
If your answer is yes then you are the first one
I believe combo of ingredients in MPS that causing upset stomach.

 

[Shocker279]

Ever tried ecdysterone/ecdysteroids without any other ingredients?
If not then i will say ecdy is NOT causing your upset stomach and all studies done on animals and humans by ICPS (no one have got upset stomach).
If your answer is yes then you are the first one
I believe combo of ingredients in MPS that causing upset stomach.

I've used the crappy form of ecdy that everyone else uses and it didn't cause problems but not the extract that's contained in MPS. It might be combo of ingredients that's causing the problem so I don't know if it's the ecdy or the ecdy in combination with the other ingredients that's causing it.

 

[ma70]

Day 9. Not much to report. Strength is maintaining/climbing in a 200-400 cal deficit. Still the same stuff as before:

Deep Sleep
Very Thirsty (sometimes I get up at night just to drink water....)
Great recovery

 

[Mixelflick]

Day 9. Not much to report. Strength is maintaining/climbing in a 200-400 cal deficit. Still the same stuff as before:

Deep Sleep
Very Thirsty (sometimes I get up at night just to drink water....)
Great recovery

Still on the insane volume/frequency/compound lifts workout?

The fact your strength is being maintained/climbing in the face of this over-training severity/caloric deficit, speaks volumes. You may have put Synthagen to the ultimate test. Be aware that ultimately it'll fail with time (we just don't know how much time yet). Before it does, suggest inserting just 1 extra rest day. Here are the signs it's coming:

1.) Strong dis-inclination to train
2.) Plateauing on more and more lifts
3.) Niggling little aches and pains that won't go away
4.) Dampened appetite
5.) Disturbed sleep patterns

I find #1 registers the most profoundly, and earliest too...

 

[Mixelflick]

No it's not but I know its the MPS because i've used it by itself and I get the same problems. I know it's the ecdy because I've used all of the other ingredients in MPS for years and never had an issue with them. Still a great product as the recovery was amazing I just can't stomach it I guess.

Yeah tranquilogen is definitley the most underrated sleep supplement out there. There is definitely some serious synergy with the ingredients because nothing relaxes me and puts me to sleep like the way it does.

Tranquilogen really does hit the sweet spot for many, although the Rhodiola can take a minority some getting used to. The great part about TQ is that it inhibits conversion of amino acids into glucose, helping to protect your muscles from breakdown while you sleep. It pairs exceedingly well with a slow release protein like cottage cheese and a bit of pineapple before bed.

The cottage cheese is loaded with casein/glutamine and releases SLOWLY in your stomach, while bromelain/papain in pineapple helps to digest the protein. It's low in carbs too, which is important. Because there's no better way to shut GH down than going to bed on a belly full of carbs!

Add 2 or 3 TQ, and it's lights out...

 

[ma70]

Still on the insane volume/frequency/compound lifts workout?

The fact your strength is being maintained/climbing in the face of this over-training severity/caloric deficit, speaks volumes. You may have put Synthagen to the ultimate test. Be aware that ultimately it'll fail with time (we just don't know how much time yet). Before it does, suggest inserting just 1 extra rest day. Here are the signs it's coming:

1.) Strong dis-inclination to train
2.) Plateauing on more and more lifts
3.) Niggling little aches and pains that won't go away
4.) Dampened appetite
5.) Disturbed sleep patterns

I find #1 registers the most profoundly, and earliest too...

I just progressed on two of my lifts yesterday (bench/row), I still have strong motivation to keep training, I'm still very hungry, and recovering just fine. Probably in week 3 I'll start crumbling, but for now, it's still going well. I have a planned deload on the 4th week. I don't plan on running this program forever. I just wanted to really see if this stuff worked.

 

[Mixelflick]

I just progressed on two of my lifts yesterday (bench/row), I still have strong motivation to keep training, I'm still very hungry, and recovering just fine. Probably in week 3 I'll start crumbling, but for now, it's still going well. I have a planned deload on the 4th week. I don't plan on running this program forever. I just wanted to really see if this stuff worked.

Can't wait to see how far you can push it!

 

[Mixelflick]

At what point in this program do you usually hit "the wall", without Synthagen?

I can't imagine undertaking this even with MPS, but then again I'm almost 45... :wtf:

 

[ma70]

At what point in this program do you usually hit "the wall", without Synthagen?

I can't imagine undertaking this even with MPS, but then again I'm almost 45... :wtf:

Usually in the 2nd week I tend to feel run down and not able to recover in these conditions (cal deficit, etc). I'm going onto my third week and I feel strong. The biggest aspect to me is that I'm able to recover from deadlifting 3 times a week. Today is a rest day and then tomorrow I'm back into it.

Also Mixel, your PM box is full. Can't reply to what you sent me.

 

[Mixelflick]

Deadlifting 3 days/week? Can't even imagine. If you can recover from it though, gains are going to pile up FAST...

Clearing PM's now. Does this program (mercifully) have a de-load?

 

[Mixelflick]

Ours IS extracted from RC.

Please clear your PM's brother!

 

[ma70]

Deadlifting 3 days/week? Can't even imagine. If you can recover from it though, gains are going to pile up FAST...

Clearing PM's now. Does this program (mercifully) have a de-load?

Yes, deloading in one more week. Still gaining strength on lifts while in a 400-600 caloric deficit, although this could be due to technique getting better since I have so much practice now.

 

[Mixelflick]

Yes, deloading in one more week. Still gaining strength on lifts while in a 400-600 caloric deficit, although this could be due to technique getting better since I have so much practice now.

Here's a telling question: Are you still making gains on upper body lifts, especially the bench? It's not uncommon to be able to up your SQ and DL while dieting, but keeping (and certainly improving) your upper body strength is a TALL order. The guys married to their bench get depressed when they see them plummet, which is why I recommend the weighted dip instead.

If fact, if you're not competing I think it's a fantastic idea.

 

[ma70]

Here's a telling question: Are you still making gains on upper body lifts, especially the bench? It's not uncommon to be able to up your SQ and DL while dieting, but keeping (and certainly improving) your upper body strength is a TALL order. The guys married to their bench get depressed when they see them plummet, which is why I recommend the weighted dip instead.

If fact, if you're not competing I think it's a fantastic idea.

Oddly enough, my gains are all in upper body lifts (overhead press and bench press) and my deadlift remains stagnant. Not sure what it could be except that deadlifting seems to not respond to high frequency very well, or maybe I'm just starting to lose focus.

 

[Mixelflick]

That's very true, the DL can't be trained frequently (usually). However, I like training it 3 ways:

1.) DL's for speed. 50% of 1RM, 10 sets of 2 with 45 sec between sets. Add bands for even more speed
2.) Sticking point day. Off blocks if you're having trouble getting it off the ground, etc
3.) Your "heavy" day, ideally tied to a loading pattern

You wind up deadlifting 3x's a month, but heavy only once. The other two workouts teach bar speed, reinforce excellent form and address any sticking points in the lift. Suspending the bar from chains in the rack is ideal for sticking point work. Beats pulling off pins b/c most pins are spaced at 2" on most racks. Too much. With chains you just raise/lower a link. Beyond that, they preserve forward/aft and sideways motion. Not so when the bar is just resting on the pins, and setup on the DL is everything..

 

[ma70]

That's very true, the DL can't be trained frequently (usually). However, I like training it 3 ways:

1.) DL's for speed. 50% of 1RM, 10 sets of 2 with 45 sec between sets. Add bands for even more speed
2.) Sticking point day. Off blocks if you're having trouble getting it off the ground, etc
3.) Your "heavy" day, ideally tied to a loading pattern

You wind up deadlifting 3x's a month, but heavy only once. The other two workouts teach bar speed, reinforce excellent form and address any sticking points in the lift. Suspending the bar from chains in the rack is ideal for sticking point work. Beats pulling off pins b/c most pins are spaced at 2" on most racks. Too much. With chains you just raise/lower a link...

Yeah. I might make modifications next month to this program so I'm not deadlifting super heavy 3 times a week.

 

[Mixelflick]

Yeah. I might make modifications next month to this program so I'm not deadlifting super heavy 3 times a week.

How many weeks were you able to deadlift 3xs/week on MPS?

Curious

 

[ma70]

How many weeks were you able to deadlift 3xs/week on MPS?

Curious

3 weeks. Started my deload today.

 

[Mixelflick]

3 weeks. Started my deload today.

Terrific. May I ask how old you are and if any test boosters or pro-hormones were in play?

I'm trying to determine just how much Synthagen can help the aging male, who isn't yet on HRT..

 

[ma70]

Terrific. May I ask how old you are and if any test boosters or pro-hormones were in play?

I'm trying to determine just how much Synthagen can help the aging male, who isn't yet on HRT..

I just turned 25. My "stack" is:

BPS Combustion
Analyzed Supplements Target A2
Controlled Labs Orange Triad
Controlled Labs Oximega Fish Oil
SNS Creatine
Mass Pro Synthagen

No test boosters/anything hormonal. Just fat burners and some staples.

 

[Mixelflick]

I just turned 25. My "stack" is:

BPS Combustion
Analyzed Supplements Target A2
Controlled Labs Orange Triad
Controlled Labs Oximega Fish Oil
SNS Creatine
Mass Pro Synthagen

No test boosters/anything hormonal. Just fat burners and some staples.

Excellent, thank you for sharing. This is a royal PITA, but I have a spreadsheet of guys, their age, their other supps, training style, somatype etc and trying to nail down the IDEAL dose for XYZ age brackets. They're mostly 5 years each in duration, with the exception of 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30.

You experience your biggest natural decline in test/GH during those years, and it's clear from the research Ecdy needs at least SOME (but not a lot) of test to work optimally..

 

[ma70]

Excellent, thank you for sharing. This is a royal PITA, but I have a spreadsheet of guys, their age, their other supps, training style, somatype etc and trying to nail down the IDEAL dose for XYZ age brackets. They're mostly 5 years each in duration, with the exception of 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30.

You experience your biggest natural decline in test/GH during those years, and it's clear from the research Ecdy needs at least SOME (but not a lot) of test to work optimally..

I've been using 5/5/5 for awhile now. In the future, is there any chance I could dial it down to 4/4/4 on workout days so I could extend my run?

 

[Touey]

With the anecdotal recovery improvements of Laxogenin and Ecdy seperately, it'll be cool to see them both combined, especially with Follidrone. Definitely something I'm going to try in the future if the Ecdy I'm running now is a success.

I've run folli and lax. together but never ecdy, on the fence about ecdy from my research but willing to try it, many, coop and that lot continually claim ecdy is virtually worthless, perhaps / perhaps not. Many claimed (-)-epi worthless and were wrong. Time will tell, we shall see.

 

[ma70]

I've run folli and lax. together but never ecdy, on the fence about ecdy from my research but willing to try it, many, coop and that lot continually claim ecdy is virtually worthless, perhaps / perhaps not. Many claimed (-)-epi worthless and were wrong. Time will tell, we shall see.

I was on the fence too but I figured I'd try it. it's definitely helping me recover on this cut, that's for sure. I don't really know if it's going to be useful on a bulk since recovery is pretty good in caloric excess.

 

[Mixelflick]

I was on the fence too but I figured I'd try it. it's definitely helping me recover on this cut, that's for sure. I don't really know if it's going to be useful on a bulk since recovery is pretty good in caloric excess.

Ecdysterone (and it's analogs, like Laxogenin) are much better suited to a cut/re-comp vs. bulking. The very essence of the product (they're adaptogens) is at issue here. For without some environmental stressor to adapt to, it logically follows that adaptogens perform sub-optimally. Once you understand this and some of the nuances surrounding timing, etc, they're absolute gold IMO.

 

[Quadzilla99]

Sounds like theres a train heading for Gainsville and sumbody better hop aboard quick

 

[Mixelflick]

Sounds like theres a train heading for Gainsville and sumbody better hop aboard quick

LOL, thanks brother. HUGE special going on right now too. Giving The Blueprint 2.0, 3.0, The Blueprint Meteoric, the SHU "Add 1" to your upper arms" MP3 download and two special reports (one for bulking, one for cutting away for FREE, when you subscribe to The Blueprint Bulletin. Subscribers got the Dec issue today. Inside were the lab test results on over 20 brands of the most popular proteins. Only 2 had 90% or more protein which they claimed on the label.

The list of flunkies?

Some BIG name companies on there, and I mean real big...

 

[ma70]

Ecdysterone (and it's analogs, like Laxogenin) are much better suited to a cut/re-comp vs. bulking. The very essence of the product (they're adaptogens) is at issue here. For without some environmental stressor to adapt to, it logically follows that adaptogens perform sub-optimally. Once you understand this and some of the nuances surrounding timing, etc, they're absolute gold IMO.

Thinking about oral laxogenin (str3ngth) after my Ecdy run. Any tips on timings I should try it?

 

[Mixelflick]

Thinking about oral laxogenin (str3ngth) after my Ecdy run. Any tips on timings I should try it?

Training days: 1 cap 60 min before exercise, 1 cap immediately post
Off days: 1 cap with a hi protein meal in the AM, 1 in the PM

Lax is a fantastic anti-inflammatory, and props to Olympus for (I think) the 50mg dosing per cap? That's a hell of a lot of Laxogenin, past products being 5mg's. To be fair, they were sublinguals (Maxwell Research's Anabolica).

 

[ma70]

Training days: 1 cap 60 min before exercise, 1 cap immediately post
Off days: 1 cap with a hi protein meal in the AM, 1 in the PM

Lax is a fantastic anti-inflammatory, and props to Olympus for (I think) the 50mg dosing per cap? That's a hell of a lot of Laxogenin, past products being 5mg's. To be fair, they were sublinguals (Maxwell Research's Anabolica).

It's 25 mg per cap, so I guess 2 pre, 2 post. Is it important to take it with protein? Seems similar to Ecdy's protocol.
Touey --> You'd find this information useful in the future, possibly.

 

[braskibra]

LOL, thanks brother. HUGE special going on right now too. Giving The Blueprint 2.0, 3.0, The Blueprint Meteoric, the SHU "Add 1" to your upper arms" MP3 download and two special reports (one for bulking, one for cutting away for FREE, when you subscribe to The Blueprint Bulletin. Subscribers got the Dec issue today. Inside were the lab test results on over 20 brands of the most popular proteins. Only 2 had 90% or more protein which they claimed on the label.

The list of flunkies?

Some BIG name companies on there, and I mean real big...

wow

only 2

 

[Mixelflick]

It's 25 mg per cap, so I guess 2 pre, 2 post. Is it important to take it with protein? Seems similar to Ecdy's protocol.
Touey --> You'd find this information useful in the future, possibly.

That's still a healthy dose. I'd keep the training days recommendation (50mg pre/post) but revise the off days to one cap (25mg) in the AM/PM with a high protein meal. It's my opinion that Ecdy/Lax absolutely need to be in circulation when high protein/amino acid levels are present. Part of the reason why you see such glowing feedback on Synthagen is due to this. The EAA's present hit the bloodstream lightening quick, and are available to repair/recover and ultimately to synthesize new muscle.

They're also there just in case you're stuck with a less than ideal meal. You can eat that bologna sandwich with fries/soft drink and still generate a high level of protein synthesis. And the insulin surge from the bread/fries/soft drink can be put to good use drilling more of MPS's goodies into the muscle cell.

Short answer is yes, LOL

 

[Mixelflick]

wow

only 2

Yep, and you'd be SHOCKED at the companies that failed. We are talking some BIG industry names. In one lesser known brand, they found almost no protein at all! It was largely maltodextrin...

 

[braskibra]

Yep, and you'd be SHOCKED at the companies that failed. We are talking some BIG industry names. In one lesser known brand, they found almost no protein at all! It was largely maltodextrin...

well crips put my name on the dotted line where do I sign up

 

[ma70]

That's still a healthy dose. I'd keep the training days recommendation (50mg pre/post) but revise the off days to one cap (25mg) in the AM/PM with a high protein meal. It's my opinion that Ecdy/Lax absolutely need to be in circulation when high protein/amino acid levels are present. Part of the reason why you see such glowing feedback on Synthagen is due to this. The EAA's present hit the bloodstream lightening quick, and are available to repair/recover and ultimately to synthesize new muscle.

They're also there just in case you're stuck with a less than ideal meal. You can eat that bologna sandwich with fries/soft drink and still generate a high level of protein synthesis. And the insulin surge from the bread/fries/soft drink can be put to good use drilling more of MPS's goodies into the muscle cell.

Short answer is yes, LOL

Ahh...so reducing to 50mg on off days sounds interesting. Bottles will last much longer. Nice

 

[Mixelflick]

well crips put my name on the dotted line where do I sign up

Ill PM you..

 

[ma70]

Do you think stacking Laxogenin with Mass Pro Synthagen would be overkill? Or does it sound like perfect harmony (due to the EAA's, and the two compounds working similarly)

Considering doing a laxo/MPS run in the future after a 1-2 month break.

 

[Mixelflick]

Do you think stacking Laxogenin with Mass Pro Synthagen would be overkill? Or does it sound like perfect harmony (due to the EAA's, and the two compounds working similarly)

Considering doing a laxo/MPS run in the future after a 1-2 month break.

Yes, overkill for sure. It must be remembered that Laxogenin is and Ecdy analogue, De-Facto, it works like Ecdy albeit at a much lower dose. Staggering them will help you evaluate which one's better for you too...

 

[ma70]

Yes, overkill for sure. It must be remembered that Laxogenin is and Ecdy analogue, De-Facto, it works like Ecdy albeit at a much lower dose. Staggering them will help you evaluate which one's better for you too...

Ahh, didn't know they were that similar. Thanks!

 

[Danes]

Personaly, i would say it would be perfect to add laxogenin to no matter what kind of supplement it is.
Those "old" laxo brands which used 5mg laxo reminds me on the old Ecdisten (russian ecdysterone product)where each pill was 5mg og ecdysterone. But thats tooooo low pill doses .

 

[Touey]

Yes, overkill for sure. It must be remembered that Laxogenin is and Ecdy analogue, De-Facto, it works like Ecdy albeit at a much lower dose. Staggering them will help you evaluate which one's better for you too...

then you think most wanted is overkill?

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Ecdysterone hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 225 mg
Laxogenin hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 125 mg

 

[Grayson]

then you think most wanted is overkill?

Amount Per Serving% Daily Value
Ecdysterone hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 225 mg
Laxogenin hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 125 mg

I think hp beta cd is a gimmick since ecdy is water soluble. Please correct me if I'm wrong Mixelflick

 

[Mixelflick]

then you think most wanted is overkill?

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Ecdysterone hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 225 mg
Laxogenin hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin complex - 125 mg

125mg of Laxogenin is a lot, yes. Look at it this way though: You're getting a LOT of Lax, for your money...

 

[Mixelflick]

I think hp beta cd is a gimmick since ecdy is water soluble. Please correct me if I'm wrong Mixelflick

Quite true, and I learned this long ago. Believe it or not, I had a well known chemist make me a sterile RCE for injection. Had to shoot every day, but it was an exceptional re-comp tool. Biggest gains were in my arms, and I do ZERO direct arm work. Just pour myself into heavy pressing and rowing movements.

 

[Damien69]

first time posting on these forums. not sure if my PM's went through Mixelflick cuz I think I need to make 10 posts first . would love to pick yer brain about some things and get that chart as well. a lot of what you say is way over my head though.