Ecdysterone? Anyone heard of this?

[alvin1]

Thank you I will read it again, since some of this stuff goes behond my head at first read. Glad to have you here with your Edyc knowlegde.

Cheer!

 

[koi1214]

Also, if anyone's using German Loading Pattern #1 (I know I gave more than a few away), please post your results here.
Many thanks..

My last day with your GLP is Friday and I will post results then.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Have to run but here are my short answers (for once):

1.) There are no human studies I'm aware of, using the cited 5mg/kd. Still, that formula is a well established rat to human conversion. Works in the real world too IF you get a quality extract.

2.I think taking Ecdy with EAA's is an absolute must, for reasons I'll get into later. Complete protein won't work because although considered a fast protein, it takes the body 60-90 minutes to break whey down into its constituent amino acids.

3.It's ideal to co-ingest both shortly before the workout (say 10-15 min) IMO

I have LOTS more to say on maximizing Ecdy. Nutrient wise, if you study Synthagen's lable there are clues. The upping your protein thing, I'm not convinced you need to, timing for example is more important. How much more do I have to say about it?

Wrote 4 books on it (The Blueprint). 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and The BP Meteoric. Sorry I didn't have more time to respond hear. Feel free to PM me, as I just cleared my in-box...



2.)

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately, I apparently can't send you a PM until I have 10 posts.

Regarding the EAA supplementation with the pre-workout dose, I saw you said to take 6g of EAAs. Is there a preferred ratio of EAAs here, or is it just good to find a EAA supplement that has all the EAAs, including tryptophan? As for the post-workout serving, is the 20g of whey the only protein I should be having immediately post workout? I typically have a large meal (1lb of beef and a few bowls of rice) about 15-30 minutes after my post-workout shake. Also, in regards to daily protein timing, would you recommend to maximize the results of ecdy.

 

[paula]

I believe if money is an issue, go for iforce ecdy and take 2caps with 6grams of EAA. And 2caps with postworkout whey protein.
Question for rob, do you think taking 2 caps of iforce ecdy with amino iv since the majority there is leucine, could you considered it as a EAA? As a 6gram. On their writeup they state they also 6grmas of EAA. Would like to try this option if i run out of budget.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I believe if money is an issue, go for iforce ecdy and take 2caps with 6grams of EAA. And 2caps with postworkout whey protein.
Question for rob, do you think taking 2 caps of iforce ecdy with amino iv since the majority there is leucine, could you considered it as a EAA? As a 6gram. On their writeup they state they also 6grmas of EAA. Would like to try this option if i run out of budget.

If I recall correctly, the recommendation was to get all the essential amino acids, including tryptophan, and I don't see any tryptophan in Amino IV. I suppose one could always add some tryptophan to a supplement that has all of the other EAAs to complete it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

There really aren't many supplements with all 9 EAAs, and I don't want to overpay for something that has a bunch of other stuff in it, since I'm just looking for the EAAs. I think what I'll go with is NOW Amino-9 powder. It is simply the 9 EAAs and nothing else. A 6 gram serving ends up costing under $0.50.

 

[kissdadookie]

There really aren't many supplements with all 9 EAAs, and I don't want to overpay for something that has a bunch of other stuff in it, since I'm just looking for the EAAs. I think what I'll go with is NOW Amino-9 powder. It is simply the 9 EAAs and nothing else. A 6 gram serving ends up costing under $0.50.

Casein hydrolysate/peptopro.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Casein hydrolysate/peptopro.

Peptopro has all 20 amino acids, wouldn't I just want the 9 EAAs? I just looked around, the Amino-9 can be found for <$0.33 per 6 gram serving, and from a place I already buy some things from.

 

[kissdadookie]

Peptopro has all 20 amino acids, wouldn't I just want the 9 EAAs? I just looked around, the Amino-9 can be found for <$0.33 per 6 gram serving, and from a place I already buy some things from.

It includes high amounts of EAAs and they are in di and tri peptide form. As long as the EAAs are available in a very quickly absorbed form (which something like Peptopro is, in fact they should get absorbed better than freeform EAAs since they get taken up as di and tripeptides) and in adequate amounts, it should serve the purpose you are using them for.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Interesting. Any idea how much I'd need to get 6g of EAAs? Actually, I can calculate it, there's an amino acid profile for it on one site. Looks like it's 41.7% EAAs, which means that I'd need just under 14.5 grams of it to get 6 grams of EAA (the math should be correct). On the site I'm looking at, that'd come out to be just under $1. Is it that much better than free form EAAs to justify the price difference for this application?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here's an old post from Mixelflick:

Per Dr. Syrov (widely considered the Godfather of Ecdysterone research) Ecdy, "Allows for an increase in both the number and activity of ribonucleic acids and the forming of new contractile muscle proteins from available amino acids...". Its my opinion based upon years of research and practical use that these amino acids need to be available in the ribosome at the precise time Ecdy is stimulating mRNA Translation. We already know the half life of Ecdy is short, in vivo and feedback from Synthagen users is bearing this premise out.

I also found this on examine.com:

A major limitation of orally supplemented Rhaponticum carthamoides and 20-hydroxyecdysone, however, is rapid metabolism of 20-hydroxyecdysone in serum (with an 8 minute half-life or less) which results in limited amounts of the molecule reaching skeletal muscle. This has been circumvented in some animal studies where 20-hydroxyecdysone has been administered directly to the muscular area via injections, and it appears that in this manner it causes time-dependent increases in the size of the muscle in the applied area with limited peripheral actions (ie. other muscle groups may not experience muscle protein synthesis nor do organs appear to be affected).

Makes sense to me.

 

[kissdadookie]

Interesting. Any idea how much I'd need to get 6g of EAAs? Actually, I can calculate it, there's an amino acid profile for it on one site. Looks like it's 41.7% EAAs, which means that I'd need just under 14.5 grams of it to get 6 grams of EAA (the math should be correct). On the site I'm looking at, that'd come out to be just under $1. Is it that much better than free form EAAs to justify the price difference for this application?

Here's the AA profile:

Per 100 grams
Alanine 2.3
Arginine 3
Aspartic Acid 5
Cystine 1
Glutamic Acid 17.1
Glycine 1.4
Histidine 2.2
Isoleucine 3.8
Leucine 7.5
Lysine 5.9
Methionine 2.6
Phenylalanine 3.7
Proline 8.5
Serine 4.1
Threonine 2.9
Tryptophan 8
Tyrosine 4.4
Valine 5.1

As for the value, it does double as actual protein so include it in your macros.

Periworkout I'm using 50 grams of casein hydrolysate and 87 grams of HBCD + isomaltulose.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here's the AA profile:

Per 100 grams
Alanine 2.3
Arginine 3
Aspartic Acid 5
Cystine 1
Glutamic Acid 17.1
Glycine 1.4
Histidine 2.2
Isoleucine 3.8
Leucine 7.5
Lysine 5.9
Methionine 2.6
Phenylalanine 3.7
Proline 8.5
Serine 4.1
Threonine 2.9
Tryptophan 8
Tyrosine 4.4
Valine 5.1

As for the value, it does double as actual protein so include it in your macros.

Good, that's the profile I saw. My math is correct, no? It's nice that it can be included in my macros. Decisions, decisions.

 

[kissdadookie]

Good, that's the profile I saw. My math is correct, no? It's nice that it can be included in my macros. Decisions, decisions.

These are complete proteins and they maintain their peptide bonds (there was a study done where AA was matched, one group of mice received freeform the other peptide bonded proteins, the proteins group developed more than the group fed FFAA, so that would suggest something about peptide bonded aminos eliciting a better response).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

These are complete proteins and they maintain their peptide bonds (there was a study done where AA was matched, one group of mice received freeform the other peptide bonded proteins, the proteins group developed more than the group fed FFAA, so that would suggest something about peptide bonded aminos eliciting a better response).

Interesting. And since it can count towards my daily protein intake, it's not really that much more expensive than going with just the EAAs.

 

[Grayson]

With this info, a pre/intra drink with peptopro, hbcd and a high quality RCE seems to be the ticket.

For pre id even mix in some cordyceps, ashwaghanda, eleuthero and Russian shilajit.

 

[kissdadookie]

With this info, a pre/intra drink with peptopro, hbcd and a high quality RCE seems to be the ticket.

For pre id even mix in some cordyceps, ashwaghanda, eleuthero and Russian shilajit.

Lulz.

Personally, there hasn't been herbals in my periworkout supplementation

Including the preworkout, ok, except for guarana and yohimbine hcl that's in the stimulant I'm using

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Lulz.

Personally, there hasn't been herbals in my periworkout supplementation

Including the preworkout, ok, except for guarana and yohimbine hcl that's in the stimulant I'm using

I'm quite fond of ashwagandha and rhodiola rosea, although not for periworkout supplementation. They're cheaper than dirt when you buy them in bulk as well.

 

[Mixelflick]

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately, I apparently can't send you a PM until I have 10 posts.

Regarding the EAA supplementation with the pre-workout dose, I saw you said to take 6g of EAAs. Is there a preferred ratio of EAAs here, or is it just good to find a EAA supplement that has all the EAAs, including tryptophan?

A. There is an ideal, but it took me 2 years to work it out for Synthagen. Having said that, you could start with the ratios used in the NIH study that cited the 600% increase in protein synthesis, and go from there. I'll simply say it's a long, expensive road because in order to add/subtract to get to your ideal, you need separate containers of all 9. But try the NIH ratio's and go from there, as good a starting point as any. And yes, Tryptophan was used in the NIH study..

As for the post-workout serving, is the 20g of whey the only protein I should be having immediately post workout? I typically have a large meal (1lb of beef and a few bowls of rice) about 15-30 minutes after my post-workout shake. Also, in regards to daily protein timing, would you recommend to maximize the results of ecdy.

A. No, but Adel Musa has penned many an article about all the good 20g of whey does for your body. The fact you're eating beef soon after the workout (well within the 2 hour window), is ideal. Straight whey's amino's are gone in 60 to 90 min. Red meat? Lasts a LONG time, and if it's the right kind (organic, grass fed) contains so many other beneficial compounds.

With respect to timing, I'm glad you used the word. Too many think "X" grams/day is the magic ticket. It's not so. Protein TIMING and QUALITY are as, if not more important. If you've got pre/intra/post workout covered, I'd suggest 2 (maybe 3) bolus protein dosages the rest of the day. The body seems to absorb and utilize protein better this way. One of those btw, should come an hour or so before bed. Steak and eggs was the old standby, but today people favor micellar casein shakes. That's OK I guess, but I like this solution even better, and it's as close as your local grocery store.

Cottage Cheese plus Pineapple slices

Because it's curdled it takes time to break down, a long time. Get the kind with fat in it too, because you need to give your body an energy source to burn, to prevent the protein/amino's from being oxidized. CC is also rich is Glutamine, and a great source of other nutrients/minerals. Finally, pineapple contains important digestive enzymes (bromelain and papain), that assist in digesting all that protein. And notice no carbs? There's a reason for that: Going to bed on a belly full of carbs is a surefire way to shut down GH release, NOT what you want...

There are training and other aspects that are necessary to tweak in order to get the most out of Ecdy, but they're outside the context of this discussion. Hope that helps!

 

[Mixelflick]

I believe if money is an issue, go for iforce ecdy and take 2caps with 6grams of EAA. And 2caps with postworkout whey protein.
Question for rob, do you think taking 2 caps of iforce ecdy with amino iv since the majority there is leucine, could you considered it as a EAA? As a 6gram. On their writeup they state they also 6grmas of EAA. Would like to try this option if i run out of budget.

This is a good starting point. Would like to see L-Tryptophan in the amino formula, but easy enough to add it if so desired. For what it's worth, the National Academy of Sciences recommendation to optimize protein synthesis cites very specific amounts of all 9 essential amino acids (including 117mg of Tryptophan btw), to optimize protein synthesis and tissue repair for adults age 19 and over.

 

[GiftedNatty]

Interesting. I haven't seen a good mixelflick appearance in a while. Is the blueprint series still relevant?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

A. No, but Adel Musa has penned many an article about all the good 20g of whey does for your body. The fact you're eating beef soon after the workout (well within the 2 hour window), is ideal. Straight whey's amino's are gone in 60 to 90 min. Red meat? Lasts a LONG time, and if it's the right kind (organic, grass fed) contains so many other beneficial compounds.

With respect to timing, I'm glad you used the word. Too many think "X" grams/day is the magic ticket. It's not so. Protein TIMING and QUALITY are as, if not more important. If you've got pre/intra/post workout covered, I'd suggest 2 (maybe 3) bolus protein dosages the rest of the day. The body seems to absorb and utilize protein better this way. One of those btw, should come an hour or so before bed. Steak and eggs was the old standby, but today people favor micellar casein shakes. That's OK I guess, but I like this solution even better, and it's as close as your local grocery store.

Cottage Cheese plus Pineapple slices

Because it's curdled it takes time to break down, a long time. Get the kind with fat in it too, because you need to give your body an energy source to burn, to prevent the protein/amino's from being oxidized. CC is also rich is Glutamine, and a great source of other nutrients/minerals. Finally, pineapple contains important digestive enzymes (bromelain and papain), that assist in digesting all that protein. And notice no carbs? There's a reason for that: Going to bed on a belly full of carbs is a surefire way to shut down GH release, NOT what you want...

There are training and other aspects that are necessary to tweak in order to get the most out of Ecdy, but they're outside the context of this discussion. Hope that helps!

It certainly does help. Now, I noticed that you mentioned that the National Academy of Scinces recommended amount of EAAs to optimize protein synthesis includes 117mg of tryptophan. NOW Amino-9 has 117mg of tryptophan per serving, and the product description says that it "contains all 9 essential amino acids in their superior free-form state and in the proportions recommended by the National Academy of Sciences to optimize protein synthesis and tissue repair for adults age 19 and over." However, the total amount of EAAs in the serving size that includes 117mg tryptophan comes out to 5g. Should I stick with this dose pre-workout, or should I take 6g?

Additionally, I take it that it is not necessary to take another serving of EAAs with the post-workout ECDY dose?

Lastly, with the pre-workout ecdy dose, does it matter what/when the last meal before the workout is, or just that the ecdy is taken with the EAAs?

 

[Grayson]

Interesting use for RCE:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/14/33

 

[kissdadookie]

It certainly does help. Now, I noticed that you mentioned that the National Academy of Scinces recommended amount of EAAs to optimize protein synthesis includes 117mg of tryptophan. NOW Amino-9 has 117mg of tryptophan per serving, and the product description says that it "contains all 9 essential amino acids in their superior free-form state and in the proportions recommended by the National Academy of Sciences to optimize protein synthesis and tissue repair for adults age 19 and over." However, the total amount of EAAs in the serving size that includes 117mg tryptophan comes out to 5g. Should I stick with this dose pre-workout, or should I take 6g?

Additionally, I take it that it is not necessary to take another serving of EAAs with the post-workout ECDY dose?

Lastly, with the pre-workout ecdy dose, does it matter what/when the last meal before the workout is, or just that the ecdy is taken with the EAAs?

Just get the peptopro in bulk. The EAAs recommendations really should be looked at as minimums, not looked at as exactly that or else the chit won't work.

The peptopro/casein hydro basically has the same AA profile as casein except over 50% of it is already essentially predigested plus all the di and tri peptides will get absorbed as individual units (so a di peptide you are basically going to absorb two aminos simultaneously, 3 for the tri peptides).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Just get the peptopro in bulk. The EAAs recommendations really should be looked at as minimums, not looked at as exactly that or else the chit won't work.

The peptopro/casein hydro basically has the same AA profile as casein except over 50% of it is already essentially predigested plus all the di and tri peptides will get absorbed as individual units (so a di peptide you are basically going to absorb two aminos simultaneously, 3 for the tri peptides).

How much peptopro would I need with the pre-workout dose? I'm assuming enough to get 6g of EAAs, which comes out to about 15g of peptopro? The stuff isn't cheap though.

 

[kissdadookie]

How much peptopro would I need with the pre-workout dose? I'm assuming enough to get 6g of EAAs, which comes out to about 15g of peptopro? The stuff isn't cheap though.

15 grams sounds about right. Again, doubles as protein, so if you did 15 grams pre, 10-15 grams intra (optional), you can have your post workout nutrition as late as 2 hours post workout because you will be in a decently fed state. So you can consider the cost of it to replace your amino acid supplement cost + cost of a serving of protein.

 

[Grayson]

Btw: Purus Labs AminoD is 5.8 grams EAAs in the ratio that the study used. No need to get fancy

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Btw: Purus Labs AminoD is 5.8 grams EAAs in the ratio that the study used. No need to get fancy

I don't see any tryptophan in it. Even disregarding that, NOW Amino-9 is significantly cheaper. I think that's what I'll go with. Peptopro sounds nice, perhaps I'll try it out later, but not now.

 

[Mixelflick]

Interesting. I haven't seen a good mixelflick appearance in a while. Is the blueprint series still relevant?

Sure is, and 2 re-comp specific twists (BP 3.0, Roadmap to Re-comp/The Blueprint Meteoric), took things to a new level. Whoever's product you're using, BP will help you get the most out of it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Sure is, and 2 re-comp specific twists (BP 3.0, Roadmap to Re-comp/The Blueprint Meteoric), took things to a new level. Whoever's product you're using, BP will help you get the most out of it.

Where can I find more information about the BP? It seems interesting.

 

[Mixelflick]

It certainly does help. Now, I noticed that you mentioned that the National Academy of Scinces recommended amount of EAAs to optimize protein synthesis includes 117mg of tryptophan. NOW Amino-9 has 117mg of tryptophan per serving, and the product description says that it "contains all 9 essential amino acids in their superior free-form state and in the proportions recommended by the National Academy of Sciences to optimize protein synthesis and tissue repair for adults age 19 and over." However, the total amount of EAAs in the serving size that includes 117mg tryptophan comes out to 5g. Should I stick with this dose pre-workout, or should I take 6g?

A. NOW's serving size is listed at 5.5 grams. Not sure if NOW or researchers conducting the studies are rounded up or what.

I'm taking 6 g...

Additionally, I take it that it is not necessary to take another serving of EAAs with the post-workout ECDY dose?

A. This is a strict interpretation of the the study. Bear in mind that was AA's alone, with no Ecdy/other ingredients in the mix. Given they found PS increased 400% when dosed post workout vs 600% pre, I think that demonstrates an effective window for both. Given bodybuilder's nature and the pricepoint involved, I'm not taking any chances - but that's me.

This is

Lastly, with the pre-workout ecdy dose, does it matter what/when the last meal before the workout is, or just that the ecdy is taken with the EAAs?

A. This is going to vary given a mixed meal's AA content, macronutrient ratios, Etc. It's my opinion that Ecdy should always be taken with EAA's, particularly in and around the workout. Protein synthesis seems to be more of a 24 hour+ thing, and both those nutraceuticals demonstrate an impact to it. As such, I'd rather not take any chances. EAA's + Ecdy before, during and after the workout.

The feedback is universally positive on co-administration of those 2, at least in Synthagen's case. I tend to think it must be similar on other products, given and effective extract, correct EAA ratios and other supporting cast types of things. You just can't leave any stone un-turned when you're drug-free. That's how I feel about it, anyway...

 

[Mixelflick]

Where can I find more information about the BP? It seems interesting.

I've PM'd you. Although I'm a recognized author here/appear on Superhumanradio.com every Tuesday, I took the safe road..

 

[muscleupcrohn]

A. This is going to vary given a mixed meal's AA content, macronutrient ratios, Etc. It's my opinion that Ecdy should always be taken with EAA's, particularly in and around the workout. Protein synthesis seems to be more of a 24 hour+ thing, and both those nutraceuticals demonstrate an impact to it. As such, I'd rather not take any chances. EAA's + Ecdy before, during and after the workout.

The feedback is universally positive on co-administration of those 2, at least in Synthagen's case. I tend to think it must be similar on other products, given and effective extract, correct EAA ratios and other supporting cast types of things. You just can't leave any stone un-turned when you're drug-free. That's how I feel about it, anyway...

Since I already have a bottle of iForce ECDY and NOW Amino-9 EAA powder on the way (I'll be starting them a week from today), what would be the ideal way to dose them? I noticed you said pre, during, and post workout. If I recall correctly, you mentioned something about 50mg iForce ECDY + EAAs pre and 50mg + whey post, which doesn't include an intra-workout serving. Now, would it be better to add in an intra-workout dose of ECDY + EAAs, just EAAs, etc...

 

[Mixelflick]

Since I already have a bottle of iForce ECDY and NOW Amino-9 EAA powder on the way (I'll be starting them a week from today), what would be the ideal way to dose them? I noticed you said pre, during, and post workout. If I recall correctly, you mentioned something about 50mg iForce ECDY + EAAs pre and 50mg + whey post, which doesn't include an intra-workout serving. Now, would it be better to add in an intra-workout dose of ECDY + EAAs, just EAAs, etc...

Your best bet, with the products you have on hand:

1) 15 min prior flood the body with 6 grams EAA's and take 50mg of iForce Ecdy
2.) Immediately post workout, 6 grams of EAA's and 50mg IForce Ecdy
3.) 30 min post workout: 20g whey protein
4.) 60 min to 120 min post workout: First solid food sit down meal, meat, potatoes and veggies/lots of H20

That should help you get the most out of the products you're using. If your workout lasts longer than an hour, PM me. I can suggest some alternate workouts. Intensity and duration rarely co-exist for long (think windsprints), so it's crucial to keep intensity high if muscle growth is the goal.

Hope that helps..

 

[Grayson]

Your best bet, with the products you have on hand:

1) 15 min prior flood the body with 6 grams EAA's and take 50mg of iForce Ecdy
2.) Immediately post workout, 6 grams of EAA's and 50mg IForce Ecdy
3.) 30 min post workout: 20g whey protein
4.) 60 min to 120 min post workout: First solid food sit down meal, meat, potatoes and veggies/lots of H20

That should help you get the most out of the products you're using. If your workout lasts longer than an hour, PM me. I can suggest some alternate workouts. Intensity and duration rarely co-exist for long (think windsprints), so it's crucial to keep intensity high if muscle growth is the goal.

Hope that helps..

What if your workouts run about 2 hours? (marathon-style circuit pump training)

 

[Mixelflick]

May I ask what the goal is, of such training?

If it's endurance related, Ecdy still has an application. You're looking for Turkesterone though, something that builds red blood cell volume. Turk certainly foots the bill here. Good friend (from Norway) had bloodwork done...

 

[Grayson]

May I ask what the goal is, of such training?

If it's endurance related, Ecdy still has an application. You're looking for Turkesterone though, something that builds red blood cell volume. Turk certainly foots the bill here. Good friend (from Norway) had bloodwork done...

Glycogen depletion during a low calorie phase of the week (3 days) to prepare the body for a carb load (weekend + power-style workout).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Your best bet, with the products you have on hand:

1) 15 min prior flood the body with 6 grams EAA's and take 50mg of iForce Ecdy
2.) Immediately post workout, 6 grams of EAA's and 50mg IForce Ecdy
3.) 30 min post workout: 20g whey protein
4.) 60 min to 120 min post workout: First solid food sit down meal, meat, potatoes and veggies/lots of H20

That should help you get the most out of the products you're using. If your workout lasts longer than an hour, PM me. I can suggest some alternate workouts. Intensity and duration rarely co-exist for long (think windsprints), so it's crucial to keep intensity high if muscle growth is the goal.

Hope that helps..

That certainly helps. Thank you. My workouts typically last around 1 hour, maybe just a tad longer on occasion, but not much. I've always been a high-volume guy myself, but I keep the rest periods short, so I can finish a good workout in about an hour, give or take a few minutes.

Last question: How long before the pre-workout ECDY + EAA dose should a meal be, and is there anything in particular I should eat or avoid during this meal?

 

[Mixelflick]

Glycogen depletion during a low calorie phase of the week (3 days) to prepare the body for a carb load (weekend + power-style workout).

I'd run it during the re-feed then, as its glycogen storing effects are as impressive (if not moreso), than the more often discussed protein synthesis. This isn't unlike what I call for in the Blueprint (i.e. Famine/Feast).

 

[Grayson]

I'd run it during the re-feed then, as its glycogen storing effects are as impressive (if not moreso), than the more often discussed protein synthesis. This isn't unlike what I call for in the Blueprint (i.e. Famine/Feast).

Very interesting. Since you're very knowledgeable on herbs/ecdysteroids/sterols, are there any that enhance glycogen depletion? For example, the vitamin, niacin is great for depletion since it blocks FFAs.

I've looked into some adaptogens, but the research is scant.

Thank you for your help again.

 

[Mixelflick]

That certainly helps. Thank you. My workouts typically last around 1 hour, maybe just a tad longer on occasion, but not much. I've always been a high-volume guy myself, but I keep the rest periods short, so I can finish a good workout in about an hour, give or take a few minutes.

Last question: How long before the pre-workout ECDY + EAA dose should a meal be, and is there anything in particular I should eat or avoid during this meal?

Tough question to answer. As I mentioned before, it depends on the meal composition and especially - protein source. My personal feeling (and if I'm not mistaken, there are studies to back this up), is to have 2-3 large protein servings during the day. This, vs. the bodybuilding dogma of 30g at each of your 5 to 7 meals. Hogwash, IMO.

In order to maximize protein synthesis, it's best to consume big(ger) doses of protein rich in leucine (at least 3g) - just not as frequently as the bodybuilding orthoxy would have you believe. Larger doses of protein seem to stimulate maximum mTOR signalling and protein synthesis vs smaller ones. Surprisingly 4-6 hours between meals seems to work best.

Therefore, Ecdy on training days with EAA's before/after. Refrain from eating at least 2 hours before training, to let AA levels fall. Off days, consume 3 or 4 larger protein based meals with Ecdy, with at least 4 hours between feedings.

 

[Mixelflick]

Very interesting. Since you're very knowledgeable on herbs/ecdysteroids/sterols, are there any that enhance glycogen depletion? For example, the vitamin, niacin is great for depletion since it blocks FFAs.

I've looked into some adaptogens, but the research is scant.

Thank you for your help again.

I've been looking for this a long time. Insofar as adaptogens go, I haven't found one yet. Certain other supps/drugs do, but nothing will usurp smart training/dieting, to deplete glycogen.

Except maybe DNP... :salook:

 

[Grayson]

I've been looking for this a long time. Insofar as adaptogens go, I haven't found one yet. Certain other supps/drugs do, but nothing will usurp smart training/dieting, to deplete glycogen.

Except maybe DNP... :salook:

Heh, not interested. I know t3 depletes glycogen, but shy of playing around with the actual compound (which I have and it's not my cup of tea), there aren't other options.

Some of the popular herbs (ashwaghanda, bacopa, olive leaf extract) seem to increase t3 or t4->t3 conversion, but its minimal and within physiological ranges. We're not interested in such frivolity or mediocredity, though

 

[Mixelflick]

Heh, not interested. I know t3 depletes glycogen, but shy of playing around with the actual compound (which I have and it's not my cup of tea), there aren't other options.

Some of the popular herbs (ashwaghanda, bacopa, olive leaf extract) seem to increase t3 or t4->t3 conversion, but its minimal and within physiological ranges. We're not interested in such frivolity or mediocredity, though

LOL very true.

Our quandry with the medical establishment arises when we ask to be optimal (or supraphysiological), vs "normal.The Dr. is trained to get sick people back to normal. We're interested in optimal, not "normal" or even worse, "average" God, how I HATE that word. They view any attempt at optimal/superhuman as irresponsible and an unnecessary risk.

I think for us, it just comes naturally...:cool2:

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Tough question to answer. As I mentioned before, it depends on the meal composition and especially - protein source. My personal feeling (and if I'm not mistaken, there are studies to back this up), is to have 2-3 large protein servings during the day. This, vs. the bodybuilding dogma of 30g at each of your 5 to 7 meals. Hogwash, IMO.

In order to maximize protein synthesis, it's best to consume big(ger) doses of protein rich in leucine (at least 3g) - just not as frequently as the bodybuilding orthoxy would have you believe. Larger doses of protein seem to stimulate maximum mTOR signalling and protein synthesis vs smaller ones. Surprisingly 4-6 hours between meals seems to work best.

Therefore, Ecdy on training days with EAA's before/after. Refrain from eating at least 2 hours before training, to let AA levels fall. Off days, consume 3 or 4 larger protein based meals with Ecdy, with at least 4 hours between feedings.

Well, it looks like I'm on the right track with my meal plan then. One of my meals (post-workout) includes 1lb of ground beef, another includes 1/2lb of chicken breast, and another meal (when I'm on the run in the morning) includes a cup of liquid egg whites, a scoop of whey, and a few hard-boiled eggs. That's 3 meals with a significant amount of protein each (at least 70g per meal).

Thanks for all the help. I'm looking forward to getting started with this stuff.

Last question (again): I currently take Phosphatadic Acid and HMB-FA pre-workout (I've gotten good results with the combo), as well as citrulline malate, agmatine, AmentoMax, glycerol, and caffeine. I take this about 30 minutes before workouts. I can still do this then take the the Ecdy + EAAs 10-15 minutes before training, no?

 

[Mixelflick]

Well, it looks like I'm on the right track with my meal plan then. One of my meals (post-workout) includes 1lb of ground beef, another includes 1/2lb of chicken breast, and another meal (when I'm on the run in the morning) includes a cup of liquid egg whites, a scoop of whey, and a few hard-boiled eggs. That's 3 meals with a significant amount of protein each (at least 70g per meal).

Thanks for all the help. I'm looking forward to getting started with this stuff.

Last question (again): I currently take Phosphatadic Acid and HMB-FA pre-workout (I've gotten good results with the combo), as well as citrulline malate, agmatine, AmentoMax, glycerol, and caffeine. I take this about 30 minutes before workouts. I can still do this then take the the Ecdy + EAAs 10-15 minutes before training, no?

Not a fan of HMB-FA at all. Unless you've gained nearly 16lbs of muscle in the past 12 weeks (and lost fat/gotten ridiculously stronger), toss it. Those figures btw, are from the HMB study that was used to promote the stuff.Even if they're true, no product can live up to that. Hell some steroids don't do this..

Amento max I'd need a link, but glycerol and caffeine are fine.

 

[bigbob78]

Mixel if you had the choice between turkesterone or ecdysterone which would you use for a body recomp? and what dosages?

 

[koi1214]

Also, if anyone's using German Loading Pattern #1 (I know I gave more than a few away), please post your results here..

I started your GLP-1 with a 1RM for my BP of 185lbs & finished with a new 1RM of 195lbs.The black indicates the the weight called for with the spread sheet and the blue indicates the weight I used.I tried to get as close to the weight called for as I could and over all I am happy as I did add 10lbs in 6 workouts to my 1RM.



8 reps with 144lbs (I will use 145)
6 with 157lbs (155)
4 with 167lbs (165)
2 with 179lbs (180)
1 with 194lbs (195) New 1RM

Thank you Mixelflick

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Not a fan of HMB-FA at all. Unless you've gained nearly 16lbs of muscle in the past 12 weeks (and lost fat/gotten ridiculously stronger), toss it. Those figures btw, are from the HMB study that was used to promote the stuff.Even if they're true, no product can live up to that. Hell some steroids don't do this..

Amento max I'd need a link, but glycerol and caffeine are fine.

I did receive it for free to log for 12 weeks, during which time my chest measurement increased by 1.5" and my waist measurement decreased by 1.0" in addition to essentially doubling the number of reps for working sets on squats (225x10 > 225x20, 275x4 > 275x8) and my bench improved as well (225x3 >225x6 and 250x3). Of course, that ended 7 weeks ago now, and I've made more improvements in the 7 weeks since then (225x9 bench and 315x7 squat). I bought a few bottles on sale to try with my own routine, which I'm doing now, but when they're gone, I'm not sure if I'll buy it again; stuff's expensive, very expensive. As for AmentoMax, which is amentoflavone, cooper69 did some write ups on it: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/240886-amentoflavone.html and http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/255669-coops-corner-7-a.html. I think it's a useful supplement.

Thanks for all the help you've given me. I appreciate it.

 

[Mixelflick]

"I started your GLP-1 with a 1RM for my BP of 185lbs & finished with a new 1RM of 195lbs.The black indicates the the weight called for with the spread sheet and the blue indicates the weight I used.I tried to get as close to the weight called for as I could and over all I am happy as I did add 10lbs in 6 workouts to my 1RM"

Nicely done brother. A 185 to 195 1RM in six workouts is impressive, and dead on for the promised 5% increase. I have 5 others that build on that, each adding anywhere from 7 to 10%. You'll be getting the excel based auto-calculators for all of them. Check your email...

Please remember to take a week off, to allow your body to heal and the mind to relax. Too much CNS stimulation/too much work in the 90th percentile of 1RM = CNS dis-inhibition. Thereafter, commence German Loading Pattern #2 with your NEW 1RM. I'll provide guidance from there.

That (and more, a LOT more) is in The Blueprint. Curious to know if you were using any Ecdy during this time?