Ecdysterone - Any fans here?

[Outstanding]

Just an edit... only because I have been Goolging, not because I don't also make a MILLION mistakes while typing, but it's "Tonvara True Turkesterone."

*I found 240 tabs for $99 pounds online... which according to Google Currency Converter is (be right back).................. $152 (plus shipping). Also, there is a 5% discount taken at the card for orders $99 pounds and above, British Pounds I presume. So, how long would that last at both 400 AND 600mg/day?

PS: Monkey wrench... while researching the website, I found out they also produce something called Super Ecdy, which might be something close to the EcdyMorph 99% Extract used in FREE REIGN? I'm going to keep reading and see what the differences are. Still wish someone domestic offered these products for a nice price. The website suggests to STACK the two, which is interesting, in order to synergize the power of both and augment their overall anabolic potential. BUT it appears obvious even by their own wording that so-called "Super Ecdy" isn't so super at all, as it is the Chinese so-called 40% "turkesterone" produced from Rhaponticum Carthamoides (aka Russian Leuzea)! So, on their True Turk page they vilify this extract, and then sell it with the misleading exaggerated name "Super" Ecdy on another page, and go on to explain the true power of both taken in unison will yield greatest results?

YEAH... ECDY... FOR ALL YOUR WONDROUS GOOD... YOU'RE AN ANNOYING ADDITIVE!! Just give me something with the full spectrum of whatever anabolic potentiating properties have been uncovered, and I'll give you my credit card information. IS THIS SO HARD?

I would certainly do 6 caps/day. Thanks for your help by the way. $155 for 6 weeks is almost uncannily outrageous! I won't bore anyone with the details, but lets just say nearly ANY anabolic steroid cycle can be created that can outweigh the above mentioned Ecdy cycle for even less investment - BUT I do of course understand and even agree with the point that's not the point here.

The point is having the ability to impart nitrogen retention and protein synthesis approaching par of that offered by AAS, without any of the side effects or unwanted feedback down regulation associated with synthetic hormone usage.

However... I'm still very curious about the other questions from my earlier post. Although none of these queries will be imminently crucial to have answered until ~May 2011.

GOOD NEWS!

I almost copy/pasted the link of Russian's new thread he began on the conversion process of the Ecdy powder, but remembered I might get an infraction for it, even though NTBM is a sponsor. So, all I'll say is there is now a complete thread up detailing the conversion and sterilization process right now.

PS: Please don't PM me, I really don't want to get banned, I want to remain on this forum for the long run, doing as much good for NTBM as I can!

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Just an edit... only because I have been Goolging, not because I don't also make a MILLION mistakes while typing, but it's "Tonvara True Turkesterone."

*I found 240 tabs for $99 pounds online... which according to Google Currency Converter is (be right back).................. $152 (plus shipping). Also, there is a 5% discount taken at the card for orders $99 pounds and above, British Pounds I presume. So, how long would that last at both 400 AND 600mg/day?

PS: Monkey wrench... while researching the website, I found out they also produce something called Super Ecdy, which might be something close to the EcdyMorph 99% Extract used in FREE REIGN? I'm going to keep reading and see what the differences are. Still wish someone domestic offered these products for a nice price. The website suggests to STACK the two, which is interesting, in order to synergize the power of both and augment their overall anabolic potential. BUT it appears obvious even by their own wording that so-called "Super Ecdy" isn't so super at all, as it is the Chinese so-called 40% "turkesterone" produced from Rhaponticum Carthamoides (aka Russian Leuzea)! So, on their True Turk page they vilify this extract, and then sell it with the misleading exaggerated name "Super" Ecdy on another page, and go on to explain the true power of both taken in unison will yield greatest results?

YEAH... ECDY... FOR ALL YOUR WONDROUS GOOD... YOU'RE AN ANNOYING ADDITIVE!! Just give me something with the full spectrum of whatever anabolic potentiating properties have been uncovered, and I'll give you my credit card information. IS THIS SO HARD?

Interesting..not sure on the 40% Turk labeling as thats just plain wrong,(perhaps a marketting gimmick to compete with wild competitor claims..?) but their "Genuine Russian Leuzea Carthamoides Extract 95% Ecdysterone" should still be infinitely better than the chinese Turkesterone 40% HPLC which doesnt even exist, nor does it contain barely any actives at all.

 

[Outstanding]

Interesting..not sure on the 40% Turk labeling as thats just plain wrong,(perhaps a marketting gimmick to compete with wild competitor claims..?) but their "Genuine Russian Leuzea Carthamoides Extract 95% Ecdysterone" should still be infinitely better than the chinese Turkesterone 40% HPLC which doesnt even exist, nor does it contain barely any actives at all.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JohnnieFreeze again.

Thank you. So you're saying that Tonvara's Super Ecdy... isn't super. Or did you mean it is 95%, which is "infinitely better" than the falsely labeled 40% by Chinese manfs?

Also, is it just me... or should this be so perplexing and intricate? If a supplement has proven anabolic potentiating properties, it should easily stand on its own two feet, and be spelled out in plain terms (not on some obscure over-seas website with pictures of amateur bodybuilders in posing trunks being groped by some female with French Tips freshly manicured, from behind!?)

 

[StackedCop]

Thank you. So you're saying that Tonvara's Super Ecdy... isn't super. Or did you mean it is 95%, which is "infinitely better" than the falsely labeled 40% by Chinese manfs?

Also, is it just me... or should this be so perplexing and intricate? If a supplement has proven anabolic potentiating properties, it should easily stand on its own two feet, and be spelled out in plain terms (not on some obscure over-seas website with pictures of amateur bodybuilders in posing trunks being groped by some female with French Tips freshly manicured, from behind!?)

Well put

I really wanna order 240 caps of this stuff but never leered from over seas before... Little nervous!

If anyone has ordered could you please share your experience with your fellow ecdy addicts.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Thank you. So you're saying that Tonvara's Super Ecdy... isn't super. Or did you mean it is 95%, which is "infinitely better" than the falsely labeled 40% by Chinese manfs?

Also, is it just me... or should this be so perplexing and intricate? If a supplement has proven anabolic potentiating properties, it should easily stand on its own two feet, and be spelled out in plain terms (not on some obscure over-seas website with pictures of amateur bodybuilders in posing trunks being groped by some female with French Tips freshly manicured, from behind!?)

their 95% ecdy is most likely good quality...you'll get more out of it then Chinese 40% Turk which doesnt even exist. Ive tried the stuff from china and go zero results from it. An affordable stack might be to stack 2 caps of TrueTurk with 2 caps ecdy...better than low dose Turk and only a little more$.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Well put

I really wanna order 240 caps of this stuff but never leered from over seas before... Little nervous!

If anyone has ordered could you please share your experience with your fellow ecdy addicts.

Tonvara has 100% pos feedback on ebay..I dont think it would be a problem ordering from them.

 

[Outstanding]

Tonvara has 100% pos feedback on ebay..I dont think it would be a problem ordering from them.

Oh yeah shouldn't be a problem for sure... I was only telling Stacked Cop that I believe the company has made some shoddy attempts at developing a website marketing campaign to be taken seriously.

Females groping well muscled guys, in their posing trunks no less... along with the obligatory innuendo pictures giving a not-so-subtle wink and nudge to the website visitors letting them know their products are so awesomazing fantabulous that it'll make you look like Dwayne Johnson and have you reeling in girls from the rich female infested waters.

The overall feel and 'experience' as a web browser, is that I have arrived at a very surface level attempt to self glorify and drive business by any means necessary toward purchasing their can't-live-without products.

Tonvara might very well, and I actually STILL believe they do, produce unmatched Ecdy products... but the background noise is a little deafening if you know what I mean.

I'd almost rather source a good 99% EcdyMorph product here domestically... or just make some calls/emails to bulk distributors and bite the $1,000 bullet and just get an entire kilogram for the next couple years of use!

Thoughts?

PS: I just checked Ebay... why on earth did they INCREASE they 240 cap price from $153USD to $170USD (I just double checked this)? It's cheaper to buy STRAIGHT from their website, and get 'free global shipping.'

Now, my head is about to explode!

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Oh yeah shouldn't be a problem for sure... I was only telling Stacked Cop that I believe the company has made some shoddy attempts at developing a website marketing campaign to be taken seriously.

Females groping well muscled guys, in their posing trunks no less... along with the obligatory innuendo pictures giving a not-so-subtle wink and nudge to the website visitors letting them know their products are so awesomazing fantabulous that it'll make you look like Dwayne Johnson and have you reeling in girls from the rich female infested waters.

The overall feel and 'experience' as a web browser, is that I have arrived at a very surface level attempt to self glorify and drive business by any means necessary toward purchasing their can't-live-without products.

Tonvara might very well, and I actually STILL believe they do, produce unmatched Ecdy products... but the background noise is a little deafening if you know what I mean.

I'd almost rather source a good 99% EcdyMorph product here domestically... or just make some calls/emails to bulk distributors and bite the $1,000 bullet and just get an entire kilogram for the next couple years of use!

Thoughts?

PS: I just checked Ebay... why on earth did they INCREASE they 240 cap price from $153USD to $170USD? It's cheaper to buy STRAIGHT from their website, and get 'free global shipping.'

Now, my head is about to explode!

I hear you on the marketing...but they are outside of the USA where perhaps our marketing may be done a little differently.:147:
ecdy is easier to source then Turk being there is but *one* place to get it.
Maybe contacting "THE INSTITUTE OF THE CHEMISTRY OF PLANT SUBSTANCES IN UZBEKISTAN" directly perhaps one can swing their own bulk deal.rivateeye:

 

[Outstanding]

I hear you on the marketing...but they are outside of the USA where perhaps our marketing may be done a little differently.:147:
ecdy is easier to source then Turk being there is but *one* place to get it.
Maybe contacting "THE INSTITUTE OF THE CHEMISTRY OF PLANT SUBSTANCES IN UZBEKISTAN" directly perhaps one can swing their own bulk deal.rivateeye:

This just looks better to me, based on experience and my own current understanding: I was going to post the link to the official EcdyMorph site, but saw at the very bottom they offered links to products/sites, so that wouldn't be allowed.

At any rate, I am curious if we could have a 1-on-1 discussion of only True Turk vs. EcdyMorph and discuss pros/cons?​

 

[StackedCop]

Ecdy is the most confusing supplement!!! Lol

I want to thank EVERYONE on this thread for all their informative comments. This is a prime example why AM is superior to all other blogs.

 

[Outstanding]

This just looks better to me, based on experience and my own current understanding: I was going to post the link to the official EcdyMorph site, but saw at the very bottom they offered links to products/sites, so that wouldn't be allowed.

At any rate, I am curious if we could have a 1-on-1 discussion of only True Turk vs. EcdyMorph and discuss pros/cons?​

Ecdy is the most confusing supplement!!! Lol

I want to thank EVERYONE on this thread for all their informative comments. This is a prime example why AM is superior to all other blogs.

Hey Stacked Cop (I know it's Staked, but that's the OCD in me... you're not staked, that would be a vampire, you're Stacked) I know what you mean about confusing; which is why I suggested limiting any discussion to EcdyMorph and True Turk. I'm going to paste an excerpt with study references below, and follow that by posting True Turk.

To start things off... here are some studies we have concerning EcdyMorph 99% crystalline extract:

There have been two recent studies with a 99% 20-Hydroxyecdysone on mice suggesting its ability to increase muscle protein synthesis, reducing body fat, and produce an anti-diabetic effect. The studies are very interesting and can be found on the internet. The studies are listed below.

20-Hydroxyecdysone increases fiber size in a muscle-specific fashion in rat. Phytomedicine: International Journal of Phytotherapy & Phytopharmacology; September 1, 2008, Volume: 15 Issue: 9 Page: 691(8)

20-Hydroxyecdysone decreases weight and hyperglycemia in a diet-induced obesity mice model. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 296:433-439, 2009.

The results of these studies were very impressive. We realize that consumers are not Rodentia, but the findings support anecdotal evidence collected throughout the years from consumers who used products containing Ecdymorph (99% 20-hydroxyecdysone).

The most interesting study with ecdysteroids done to date was published in 2008. Phytoecdysteroids Increase Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle Cells. J. Agric. Food Chem. 2008, 56, 3532–3537. This study not only measured an increase in protein synthesis, but also suggested how ecdysteroids work. The conclusion of the study: "In mammals, which seem to lack homologous receptors, the molecular mechanisms of ecdysteroid action are still unknown. Although our findings suggest that ecdysteroids may be mediated by a pathway that converges on the PI3K pathway, rather than on the androgen receptor pathway, more study is needed to confirm this hypothesis".

Other notable studies:

* Chermnykh, N.S., et.al. (1988). The action of methandrostenolone and ecdysterone on the physical endurance of animals and on protein metabolism in the skeletal muscles. Farmakol. Tok. (USSR). 51, 57-60

* Simakin, S. Yu., et al., (1988). The Combined Use of Ecdisten and the Product 'Bodrost' during Training in Cyclical Types of Sport. Scientific Sports Bulletin, No. 2

Notice how I don't have anything on True Turk? Ha, don't read into it... it's not metaphorical of anything, I just haven't found any yet. Although, it does raise my eyebrow how an entire company whose rise and fall exists on one specific compound that they claim is the BEST, wouldn't slap customers in the face with their collection of science. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Here is a sort of general finding I found on scholarly articles: http://www.eiselt.se/Leuzea.pdf

It delves more into general Ecdysterones, of which 11 have been identified to date, and how fresh spinach contains over 50mg/kg of active (but I digress). Also, something I read of note is how these Ecdysterones work well in unison, meaning that they all combine to promote a more anabolic synergy. I am still reading... here is an excerpt from the PDF (below)

*NOTE THAT THE BELOW CITED REVIEWS OF LITERATURE ONLY REFERS TO Rhaponticum carthamoides (Willd.) Iljin, syn. Leuzea carthamoides AND NOT TRUE TURK!!!!! I cannot find A SINGLE study related to trained human males or rats, on True Turk.

In one study a natural protein substance known to favorably influence the muscle-fat ratio as
well as work capacity among athletes was used in combination with RCE and compared to
placebo (Lupandin 1991). In the combined study it was found that taking RCE combined with
additional supplemental protein was optimal to achieve the highest increase in work capacity in
athletes. Of the athletes who consumed just protein, only a slight increase in muscle mass was
observed. Those who used a placebo lost a slight amount of lean muscle, while those who used
protein plus ecdysterone showed a 6-7% increase in lean muscle tissue with nearly a 10%
reduction in fat. No difference in hormonal parameters in those taking RCE was observed during
the study period.

Increased protein synthesis
Introduction of ecdysterone, (0.5 mg/100 g), from RCE, to rats for 7 days was accompanied by
accelerated body weight gain and also by a rising weight of the liver, heart, and kidneys. In
these organs the total amount of protein increases (Seifulla et al 1993). Studies conducted in
seven clinics in Moscow, Kiev, and Leningrad revealed that RCE significantly improves the
physical and mental state of patients; increases work capacity and increases body weight during
conditions of decreased nourishment caused by protein synthesis disorders. Its anabolic
properties cause a normalization of body weight with no negative influences noted on the
functions of either the adrenal cortex or the endocrine glands (Antoshechkin 2000). RCE
specifically helps prevent the catabolic state seen with stress. Components of the plant have
shown anabolic properties in clinical studies. Under conditions of daily aerobic and anaerobic
training, patients who consumed RCE for three weeks lost fat and gained muscle mass (Syrov et
al 1997).

Anti-diabetic/insulintrophic
In a study of people with diabetes who were treated with a combination of Eleutherococcus,
Rhaponticum, and Rhodiola extracts showed impressive improvements in the normalization of
blood glucose levels (Kolmakova and Kutolinam 1966).

Therapeutic Actions of R. carthamoides
• Increases protein synthesis, reduces adipose tissue, builds muscle mass
• Increases stamina, endurance and athletic performance, and work productivity
• Improves mental health, learning and memory
• Improves adaptivity to cold climates
• Enhances immune activity
• Improves insulin sensitivity, stabilizes blood sugar, antidiabetic
• Reduces body fat/increases lean muscle
• Lowers cholesterol, reduces atherosclerosis; cardiovascular restorative
• Anti-arrhythmia
• Hepatoprotective/regenerative
• Protects against the effects of steroids
• Enhances mitochondrial activity
• Antioxidant
• Stabilizes cell membranes
• Anticancer
• Anti-epileptic
• Stimulates erythropoiesis, increasing erythrocytes and hemoglobin
• Renal protective
• Sexual enhancement, improves sperm number and quality
• Antidepressant; reduces alcohol cravings
• Anti-giardia; antifungal

 

[luelinks]

I just read couple pages of this thread and my head is about to explode!

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

This just looks better to me, based on experience and my own current understanding: I was going to post the link to the official EcdyMorph site, but saw at the very bottom they offered links to products/sites, so that wouldn't be allowed.

At any rate, I am curious if we could have a 1-on-1 discussion of only True Turk vs. EcdyMorph and discuss pros/cons?​

The general consensus is Turkesterone is a good 20x stronger than ecdy. There's probably some old threads here on AM discussing the differences.

 

[Outstanding]

The general consensus is Turkesterone is a good 20x stronger than ecdy. There's probably some old threads here on AM discussing the differences.

Twenty...... T-I-M-E-S!?

That seems like a massive and impressive divide between the two... I have a hard time believing it (NOT of course doubting you specifically by any means, just doubting the ultimate numbers put forth and the validity of the testing used to reach those findings).

Is that 20x as anabolic, specifically?

With the limited and far/few between human studies revolving around BOTH of these compounds, it seems almost disingenuous or even approaching impossible to have such exaggerated claims regarding the contrasting power of the two; not to mention I can't imagine they used the 99% EcdyMorph specific extract pitting it again True Turk in a trained male peer reviewed study?

Notes:
- Thread you're referencing is here I believe: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/55158-effectiveness-turkesterone.html (But I see no science based foundation behind the 20x claims Poison made initially)

 

[fightbackhxc]

I took ecdysterone in Mass Addiction. I felt a little harder...its anecdotal but I felt it worked. I am not sure if the Mass Addiction Amplified has it in it or not.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Right, I havent seen scientific studies either..typical adds for Turk claim
"Turkesterone is 2000% MORE POWERFUL than Beta-Ecdysterone" and statments below are also prevalent.
"turkesterone is an 11alpha-hydroxyl group phytoecdysteroid that is the most biologically active of the known ecdysteroids".
I dont think Turk being the strongest "Bug Juice" is in question..only how much stronger.

 

[Outstanding]

Right, I havent seen scientific studies either..typical adds for Turk claim
"Turkesterone is 2000% MORE POWERFUL than Beta-Ecdysterone" and statments below are also prevalent.
"turkesterone is an 11alpha-hydroxyl group phytoecdysteroid that is the most biologically active of the known ecdysteroids".
I dont think Turk being the strongest "Bug Juice" is in question..only how much stronger.

The height of irresponsibility in marketing (no surprised feeling here). I'm not concerned about it being the most bioavailable, although that is an attractive and certainly desired property. I'm/we're all interested in whether or not it truly is the most anabolic iteration of the Ecdy familial collective.

I don't even see any evidence-based studies on rodentia that hints at the '20x more effective' claims. Where's the creme filling?

 

[Whacked]

Mad props to JF and the others who have contributed killer info and/or insight to this thread

Well done. For those of us who love ECD and Turk, this thread is invaulable!

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

The height of irresponsibility in marketing (no surprised feeling here). I'm not concerned about it being the most bioavailable, although that is an attractive and certainly desired property. I'm/we're all interested in whether or not it truly is the most anabolic iteration of the Ecdy familial collective.

I don't even see any evidence-based studies on rodentia that hints at the '20x more effective' claims. Where's the creme filling?

Perhaps Tonvara themselves have access to these studies on ecdy and Turk..since they sell both they should offer whatever info they have...and also since they sell both there shouldnt be any one sided biased view on Turk.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

A full write up I found online..

Turkesterone (ajuga turkestanica) is a harvested from the Rhaponticum cathamoides or Leuzea plant - thistle-like plants grown in Southern Siberia, Kazakhstan, Bulgaria and Central Asia annually.

What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?

Highly concentrated in 20-E - 20-hydroxyecdysone - turkesterone is an 11alpha-hydroxyl group phytoecdysteroid that is the most biologically active of the known ecdysteroids. It is considered a strong adaptogenic herb.

As an ecdysteroid, turkesterone has shown an ability to exert mild anabolic effects, with animal trials showing an increase in protein synthesis in mice when dosed at 5mg per 1kg of bodyweight.1,2 The ability of turkesterone to elicit anabolic effects and ability to increase protein synthesis in animals has been known since the early 1960's.

Human research data on the effects of turkesterone in humans is limited, but real-World case data is consistent with traditional usage, with some real-World data suggesting that turkesterone may support optimum energy levels, promote excellent exercise performance and may support optimum exercise recovery. It has been suggested, though not conclusively proven, that turkesterone promotes optimum hydration.

How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?

Strictly follow label directions.

No side-effects are known. No contraindications with prescription medicines are known. Always consult with your doctor before using dietary supplements.

SCIENTIFIC REFERENCES

1. Syrov VN. Mechanism of the anabolic action of phytoecdisteroids in mammals. Nauchnye Doki Vyss Shkoly Biol Nauki. 1984;(11):16-20.
2. Kurmukov AG, et al. Effect of turkesterone and nerobol on the activity of the protein synthesizing system of mouse liver. Vopr Med Khim. 1978 Jul-Aug;24(4):456-60.
3. Burdette, W. J., and R. L. Coda, 1963 Effect of ecdysone on incorporation of C14-leucine into hepatic protein in vitro. Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 112: 216217.

from pubmed:

[Mechanism of the anabolic action of phytoecdisteroids in mammals]

[Article in Russian]

Syrov VN.

In experiments with white mice it has been established that phytoecdisteroides turkesteron, ecdisteron and 2-desoxy-alpha-ecdison in the dose of 5 mg on 1 kg of body mass stimulate the protein synthesis. Using the model of protein synthesis from mice liver it has been shown that the action of phytoecdisteroides is connected with the rise of poliribosome functional activity and rate increase of protein macromolecules formation. Preliminary administration of actinomycin D does not prevent the effect of protein synthesis stimulation. It has been concluded that the anabolic effect of phytoecdisteroides in mammals organism is connected not with induction of RNA synthesis but with the acceleration of translocation processes.


[Effect of phytoecdysteroids and nerobol on parameters of carbohydrate and lipid metabolism and phospholipid spectrum of liver mitochondrial membrane in experimental diabetes mellitus of rats]

[Article in Russian]

Syrov VN, Tashmukhamedova MA, Khushbaktova ZA, Mirtalipov DT, Mamatkhanov AU.

Phytoecdysteroids: ecdysterone and turkesterone, introduced orally to male rats with the body mass 180-120 g in a dose of 5 mg/l kg of mass and nerobol in a dose of 10 mg per 1 kg of the mass for 15 days against a background of the developed alloxan diabetes cause a considerable decrease in the content of free fatty acids of the blood serum, sharply increased after the subcutaneous injection of alloxan to the animals (150 mg per 1 kg of the mass). The content of glycogen, malonic dialdehyde, pyruvic acid and calcium transporting function of the liver mitochondria are also normalized. These changes are closely interrelated (and may be mutually conditioned) with the preparation-induced reduction of phospholipid spectrum of the liver mitochondrial membranes pathologically changed owing to insulin insufficiency. In this case phytoecdysteroids in the first turn normalize the fractions of phospholipids which play the structural role in the mitochondrial membranes, and nerobol normalizes the level of minor and monoacylic phospholipids.

The first thing I noticed at a glance was the dose needed in mice to stimulate protein synthesis.."5 mg on 1 kg of body mass stimulate the protein synthesis". Thats a rather large dose to get anything out of it assuming us humans need similar..Tonvara's dose recommendations are close to the mark.

 

[StackedCop]

A full write up I found online..




from pubmed:



The first thing I noticed at a glance was the dose needed in mice to stimulate protein synthesis.."5 mg on 1 kg of body mass stimulate the protein synthesis". Thats a rather large dose to get anything out of it assuming us humans need similar..Tonvara's dose recommendations are close to the mark.

So there's really no reason to stack Turk with RC Ecdy? It would kinda be like throwing a glass of water into a ocean.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

So there's really no reason to stack Turk with RC Ecdy? It would kinda be like throwing a glass of water into a ocean.

LOL! Thats funny...but IMOP, youd get more out of doubling Turk then stacking with ecdy..but if cost is a factor then stacking half the Turk with a affordable ecdy would be better than half the Turk alone..Thats my .02. cents worth.
This is also why I find E-Bol so frustrating..its good quality but low dose Turk "window dressed" with ginseng and other fluff..Id rather them take all that stuff out and triple dose the Turk.

 

[scoooter]

"but if cost is a factor"

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTORS

IMO the 240 cap of Turk has a price point that is just not appealing.

 

[StackedCop]

Well, what I'm gonna do is start with 2 a day and work up to 6. I wanna add bulk methoxy in place of ecdy. What's your thoughts in that.

Cost is a factor but I work a lot and don't have kids so I can afford to experiment.

 

[ax1]

LOL! Thats funny...but IMOP, youd get more out of doubling Turk then stacking with ecdy..but if cost is a factor then stacking half the Turk with a affordable ecdy would be better than half the Turk alone..Thats my .02. cents worth.
This is also why I find E-Bol so frustrating..its good quality but low dose Turk "window dressed" with ginseng and other fluff..Id rather them take all that stuff out and triple dose the Turk.

Maybe the other ingrediants work synergistically to maximize the effects of the ecdysterone?

So if thats the case it wouldnt matter thats its dosed lower, right?

Kinda like when you add caffeine to ephedrine to maximize ephedrine's fat loss effects in a way.....

Dunno......not a scientist here but I think it makes some wonderful broscience sense.

 

[StackedCop]

Maybe the other ingrediants work synergistically to maximize the effects of the ecdysterone?

So if thats the case it wouldnt matter thats its dosed lower, right?

Kinda like when you add caffeine to ephedrine to maximize ephedrine's fat loss effects in a way.....

Dunno......not a scientist here but I think it makes some wonderful broscience sense.

I've always wondered this myself... My all time favorite ecdy product is Mstak which has methoxy, ecdy and Turk along with other herb and aminos.

 

[scoooter]

Well, what I'm gonna do is start with 2 a day and work up to 6. I wanna add bulk methoxy in place of ecdy. What's your thoughts in that.

Cost is a factor but I work a lot and don't have kids so I can afford to experiment.

Just my 2 cent: I think its great ! but why start at just 2 caps ? if your close to 200lbs it may be prudent to start at 4 caps / day increasing to 6. I'm all in favor of a stacks and methoxy seems good choice.

 

[StackedCop]

Just my 2 cent: I think its great ! but why start at just 2 caps ? if your close to 200lbs it may be prudent to start at 4 caps / day increasing to 6. I'm all in favor of a stacks and methoxy seems good choice.

I agree but I've never used pure Turk as a solo so just wanna see how it works and how I respond to 2 and increase then add methoxy around week 2. Will make the cycle last a little longer I would only do 2 caps for a week max.

 

[scoooter]

With adaptogens the longer the better they take some time while using them in the right environment aids too. Perhaps some Bioperin to improve uptake as well.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

"but if cost is a factor"

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTORS

IMO the 240 cap of Turk has a price point that is just not appealing.

I understand. Its why I havent purchased yet, but whether its worth it depends on the results. Depending on whatever else youre taking, perhaps we can break even by stopping some of the other stuff temporarily..say...just take your mandatory staples like protein w/ Turk.

 

[StackedCop]

I understand. Its why I havent purchased yet, but whether its worth it depends on the results. Depending on whatever else youre taking, perhaps we can break even by stopping some of the other stuff temporarily..say...just take your mandatory staples like protein w/ Turk.

What?!? You've never taken true Turk? You speak very highly of Turk considering you've never used it...

Before I buy this stuff is there anyone in here that HAS used true Turk?

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Maybe the other ingrediants work synergistically to maximize the effects of the ecdysterone?

So if thats the case it wouldnt matter thats its dosed lower, right?

Kinda like when you add caffeine to ephedrine to maximize ephedrine's fat loss effects in a way.....

Dunno......not a scientist here but I think it makes some wonderful broscience sense.

I'm all for their 95% Ecdysterone added to the stack as youre going to need the 110mg of that per dose to make up for the low dose Turk.
and Id bet anything that Ginseng, Ashwhaganda, and Vitamin C are not going to add the anabolic effect of higher dosed Turk. You want Vitamin C? You can buy a huge bottle for $3. :bling:
The other ingredients are "ok"...but again, they are trying to make up for the lack of Turkesterone. That stuff is expensive, so they save by offering as little as possible (even though its the 1st thing listed on their label) yet still trying to offer an effective product. It might very well be decent, but it could be much better.

 

[StackedCop]

I never said I used it...otherwise Id be talking about the results I got from it. I only said they're the only company selling the real thing is higher doses. Thermolife is the only other company sourcing from the same place but their Turk is low dose. I HAVE used the Turk from China which I got nothing from.

My fault for assuming. Do we know anyone who has used true Turk?

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

My fault for assuming. Do we know anyone who has used true Turk?

Nope..sorry..but I do plan on purchasing in a few weeks. Theres only 2 companies supplying Turkesterone "Imported Directly From The Institute Of The Chemistry Of Plant Substances, Academy Of Sciences, Republic Of Uzbekistan". Thermolife and Tonvara. Since Tonvara is offering 100mg capsules as opposed to 20mg per dose in E-Bol, I know which way Im going. I tried other sources of Turk in the past and got nothing at all..not even megadosing. I firmly believe the ONLY 2 places to buy from other than a direct connection to the above mentioned chemisty plant is Thermolife and Tonvara.

 

[ax1]

You want Vitamin C? You can buy a huge bottle for $3. :bling:

Vitamin C increases the half life of ecdysterone by making urine more acidic which leads to re-absorption of the compounds in the intestines.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Vitamin C increases the half life of ecdysterone by making urine more acidic which leads to re-absorption of the compounds in the intestines.

good to know...it makes the $3 purchase of a huge bottle of C even better. ;-)

 

[tnubs]

Vitamin C increases the half life of ecdysterone by making urine more acidic which leads to re-absorption of the compounds in the intestines.

this cant be true. if u want me to explain i will...


Edit to add: ill just explain anyways.

Once u take the pill it goes into the stomach, its broken apart, then slowly spit into the small intestines where enzymes from the pancreas, liver, and walls of the intestines break it apart into its smallest unit. These are then absorbed into the small capillaries lining the intestines, which take all nutrients, protein, carbs (except lipids/fats which go to the lacteals and into lymphatic circulation and to the heart) into the liver/hepatic circulation before going into systemic circulation. the liver can change certain chemicals by altering their structure for the better or worse. then once in systemic circulation its going to pass through the kidney. the kidneys filter all the blood in the body via the renal corpuscles. this is where reabsorption happens. if something isnt reabsorbed in the nephron(part of the renal corpuscle), u literally piss it out as it will freely flow into the collecting duct/ureter. just because the pH is too low, it wont stop u from pissing it out. it is true that your body doesnt like creating urine that is too acidic but it can easily compensate. just think about all the people who go on keto diets. their blood is more acidic than the average person just because theres so many ketones(acidic) floating around. all ur body has to do reabsorb less bicarbonate in the nephron and the pH goes up to a reasonable level as the bicarbonate is added to the urine. ( CO2 + water in blood = carbonic acid = bicarbonate + hydrogen). So u can increase respiration rate by dissociating it back into CO2 to remove it or let the blood buffers take over to remove the hydrogen . theres also a buffer system in the renal system to allow for acid excretion. it would be like saying if u follow a keto diet u will stop urinating and die. but anyways, once in the renal system... nutrients CAN NOT go back into the intestines. theres literally no pathways. the majority of ur poop is just bacteria of the intestines such as e. coli and one that starts with an H, cant remember it.

^^i will make a good doctor in 2 years when i graduate, right?

 

[StackedCop]

this cant be true. if u want me to explain i will...

Explain

 

[tnubs]

Explain

lol, look above. i just edited it in

 

[StackedCop]

You will make a good doctor of you prescribe me to 1000mg of test a week




JK!

I do always learn from your posts!! Keep up the good work brother.

 

[tnubs]

You will make a good doctor of you prescribe me to 1000mg of test a week




JK!

I do always learn from your posts!! Keep up the good work brother.

haha, thats a dangerous dose! ill give it to myself in a blast/cruise fashion and scare away my patients with my huge size. one of the guys at my gym does something with cancer therapy and hes the biggest guy ive seen in my life and has won a lot of BB competitions. id be afraid to be his patient if he was in a bad mood

 

[Whacked]

This thread is getting confusing LOL

I'm an ECD whore (love the stuff) but now, I have no clue WHICH direction to go down next.

1. index
2. Tonvara 100% Genuine Turkesterone From Uzbekistan (thanks JF )
3. FREE REIGN by SDN (I hate proprietary blends )
4. Sirovi HumanaTest (never heard of them so there's the trust factor)
5. LG ecdy(In general, they rock, but how do you all feel about their extract?)


LIL HELP DANG IT :spank:...........

 

[StackedCop]

This thread is getting confusing LOL

I'm an ECD whore (love the stuff) but now, I have no clue WHICH direction to go down next.

1. index
2. Tonvara 100% Genuine Turkesterone From Uzbekistan (thanks JF )
3. FREE REIGN by SDN (I hate proprietary blends )
4. Sirovi HumanaTest (never heard of them so there's the trust factor)
5. LG ecdy(In general, they rock, but how do you all feel about their extract?)


LIL HELP DANG IT :spank:...........

My next purchase is going to be true Turk. If that helps at all. No one on here has used it so.... I'm gonna say fuc& it and buy it. Has Lg released their ecdy product?

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

I read on another forum that these are the order of effectiveness.

Turkesterone
Ponasterone
ecdysterone

take that for whats its worth

 

[scoooter]

This thread is getting confusing LOL

I'm an ECD whore (love the stuff) but now, I have no clue WHICH direction to go down next.

1. index
2. Tonvara 100% Genuine Turkesterone From Uzbekistan (thanks JF )
3. FREE REIGN by SDN (I hate proprietary blends )
4. Sirovi HumanaTest (never heard of them so there's the trust factor)
5. LG ecdy(In general, they rock, but how do you all feel about their extract?)


LIL HELP DANG IT :spank:...........

#1 From Index: Higher Power product 12/17/2010 - Unfortunately, Bodybuilding.com has discontinued this product. That Ecdymorph stuff seems nice, however without an HPLC test result to confirm it's difficult to trust.

#2 The Tonvara is nice but too much $$ for me at the moment. PS they also refused to provide a C of A for their ecdy stating to me the following reason..."Test done for us indicate that it is 95%. The test was HPLC. Due to recent serious abuses by competitor companies, we do not now make product test or C of A documentation publicly available. I hope you understand our position."

#3 without an HPLC test result to confirm it's difficult to trust.

#4 without an HPLC test result to confirm it's difficult to trust.


#5 = http://anabolicminds.com/forum/lg-sciences/163816-sub-sterone-mini.html

But I don't think its been released other than that trial run.

 

[Outstanding]

Perhaps Tonvara themselves have access to these studies on ecdy and Turk..since they sell both they should offer whatever info they have...and also since they sell both there shouldnt be any one sided biased view on Turk.

Great point... they do sell both, so perhaps that will allow more transparency and openness one-against-the-other. Well, one can only hope I suppose. Thanks. Someone should contact them and ask some of these more prominent questions throughout the thread (I'm not feeling very motivated today - at least not right now)

A full write up I found online..




from pubmed:



The first thing I noticed at a glance was the dose needed in mice to stimulate protein synthesis.."5 mg on 1 kg of body mass stimulate the protein synthesis". Thats a rather large dose to get anything out of it assuming us humans need similar..Tonvara's dose recommendations are close to the mark.

VERY good point, nice insight.

 

[Whacked]

CRAP!

Was just getting ready to order. Maybe I'll await JF's run to see if it's legfit LOL

The Tonvara is nice but too much $$ for me at the moment. PS they also refused to provide a C of A for their ecdy stating to me the following reason..."Test done for us indicate that it is 95%. The test was HPLC. Due to recent serious abuses by competitor companies, we do not now make product test or C of A documentation publicly available. I hope you understand our position."

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

I asked Tonvara and what I was told is to contact Khasan Niyazov who works at the institute for all scientific studies. Contact info is on their "letter of authentication" page on the Tonvara website.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

CRAP!

Was just getting ready to order. Maybe I'll await JF's run to see if it's legfit LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoooter
The Tonvara is nice but too much $$ for me at the moment. PS they also refused to provide a C of A for their ecdy stating to me the following reason..."Test done for us indicate that it is 95%. The test was HPLC. Due to recent serious abuses by competitor companies, we do not now make product test or C of A documentation publicly available. I hope you understand our position."

Thats disappointing. Hopefully direct contact with the institute will provide those answers.

 

[Outstanding]

(in the voice of Zeus) MEGA MULTI-QUOTE!!! (bolts of lightening descend from above)

LOL! Thats funny...but IMOP, youd get more out of doubling Turk then stacking with ecdy..but if cost is a factor then stacking half the Turk with a affordable ecdy would be better than half the Turk alone..Thats my .02. cents worth.
This is also why I find E-Bol so frustrating..its good quality but low dose Turk "window dressed" with ginseng and other fluff..Id rather them take all that stuff out and triple dose the Turk.

Window dressed, I like that! A while ago, I was always 101% dissuaded from purchasing E-Bol. I 'want' to like Thermo Life, because I believe they are a good solid company with an eye fixed on quality AND profits, as any respectable company should be... but NO WAY will I ever purchase a product 'window dressed' when True Turk exists in capsules. Thanks, as always, Johnnie Cold!

"but if cost is a factor"

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FACTORS

IMO the 240 cap of Turk has a price point that is just not appealing.

Not appealing: True. Anabolically Appealing: YES! The balance between the two is what keeps me having the prospect of making the purchase swimming around in my mind. I know I will, eventually, for my PCT which will be this Summer in 2011 So... stay tuned everyone (but don't fog up your monitor screens, that's months away).

Maybe the other ingrediants work synergistically to maximize the effects of the ecdysterone?

So if thats the case it wouldnt matter thats its dosed lower, right?

Kinda like when you add caffeine to ephedrine to maximize ephedrine's fat loss effects in a way.....

Dunno......not a scientist here but I think it makes some wonderful broscience sense.

Broscience... both the antithesis AND the foundational construct of productive discourse and dissection of nutraceuticals.

I've always wondered this myself... My all time favorite ecdy product is Mstak which has methoxy, ecdy and Turk along with other herb and aminos.

The only reason I'm a fervent believer in Methoxy, is ONLY (I used only twice to really emphasize it) because it was part of M-Stak, which I believe you share my sentiments that it was by far the best Ecdy product I have ever used (although FREE REIGN is QUICKLY approaching the same level of notoriety in my mind)!

With adaptogens the longer the better they take some time while using them in the right environment aids too. Perhaps some Bioperin to improve uptake as well.

I always add in Bioperine, a well know Google generated ad-banner company produces the raw 10mg capsules of it I have an entire 'systemic physiological amplification system' put into place that I have devised.

I understand. Its why I havent purchased yet, but whether its worth it depends on the results. Depending on whatever else youre taking, perhaps we can break even by stopping some of the other stuff temporarily..say...just take your mandatory staples like protein w/ Turk.

I just had this discussion with someone earlier today via PM... I communicated that I would gladly weed out and minimize the rest of my OTC collection, in order to make way and finances for True Turk or EcdyMorph 99% (what I'm on now).

I can procure, at any time, 1,000g of PURE EcdyMorph 99% Crystalline Extract....... for $1,300! Although it seems insane to spend the price of a brand new high powered 3D Laptop on a supplement powder, that 1kg will last T-W-O Y-E-A-R-S at OVER 1G PER DAY! Think about THAT.

Nope..sorry..but I do plan on purchasing in a few weeks. Theres only 2 companies supplying Turkesterone "Imported Directly From The Institute Of The Chemistry Of Plant Substances, Academy Of Sciences, Republic Of Uzbekistan". Thermolife and Tonvara. Since Tonvara is offering 100mg capsules as opposed to 20mg per dose in E-Bol, I know which way Im going. I tried other sources of Turk in the past and got nothing at all..not even megadosing. I firmly believe the ONLY 2 places to buy from other than a direct connection to the above mentioned chemisty plant is Thermolife and Tonvara.

I always enjoy your posts, thanks! Make sure, everyone, to only purchase from true Turk verified sources!!!!!!!!! There is a seller, especially on that well-known auction site, that sells the chinese bunk garbage!

Vitamin C increases the half life of ecdysterone by making urine more acidic which leads to re-absorption of the compounds in the intestines.

Hmmmm......... (in voice of Freud) "Very interesting"

this cant be true. if u want me to explain i will...


Edit to add: ill just explain anyways.

...theres literally no pathways. the majority of ur poop is just bacteria of the intestines such as e. coli and one that starts with an H, cant remember it.

^^i will make a good doctor in 2 years when i graduate, right?

DOH! Phew..... good thing I didn't splurge on that Vit-C

haha, thats a dangerous dose! ill give it to myself in a blast/cruise fashion and scare away my patients with my huge size. one of the guys at my gym does something with cancer therapy and hes the biggest guy ive seen in my life and has won a lot of BB competitions. id be afraid to be his patient if he was in a bad mood

Ohhhh c'mon..... 1g of Test/week ain't so bad. I mean, well I might even know a lad or two who have exceeded that common threshold, and lived to tell the tales 'round the campfire!

This thread is getting confusing LOL

I'm an ECD whore (love the stuff) but now, I have no clue WHICH direction to go down next.

1. index
2. Tonvara 100% Genuine Turkesterone From Uzbekistan (thanks JF )
3. FREE REIGN by SDN (I hate proprietary blends )
4. Sirovi HumanaTest (never heard of them so there's the trust factor)
5. LG ecdy(In general, they rock, but how do you all feel about their extract?)


LIL HELP DANG IT :spank:...........

I have never tried Turk.... that being said, I would, at this point in time, offer my very confident suggestion to pursue 99% EcdyMorph which is a HIGHLY standardized crystalline extract. As SOON as I gather better more complete perspective from personal trial on Turk, I will offer up my new insight of course.

My next purchase is going to be true Turk. If that helps at all. No one on here has used it so.... I'm gonna say fuc& it and buy it. Has Lg released their ecdy product?

It is strange to me, that there are so few who have tried True Turk, well at least on this forum that is. It is, QUITE EASILY, comfortably within my Top-3 OTC compounds (Ecdy in general, as I have not tried official True Turk). My guess, which I'm sure isn't too far off base, is that it lacks that hyped-up prevalent marketing whiz-bang strategy and 'exotic' feel with multi-syllable works and nomenclature... BUT that's just what appeals to me! The fact it is supported by so little, aside from my own REAL world endeavors, says a lot to me.

I read on another forum that these are the order of effectiveness.

Turkesterone
Ponasterone
ecdysterone

take that for whats its worth

Ohhhhhhh, thanks for throwing a monkey wrench into the whole situation! Just when we were making real progress, this guy shows up and tosses ole' Ponasterone into the mix. NO!!!