What's the last thing you ate??

2 cans of salmon
Homemade italian dressing to monitor fat from EVOO
32 oz of water

You gotta love cutting!...not....
 
AntonG42O said:
thats cuz you dont need a whole lot of carbs for anything. fruits and vegetables are enough carbs to replenish glycogen and beef/fish/eggs initiates the same insulin response as carbs without a jump in blood sugar.
Click to expand...

yea i know protein spikes insulin but the fruits and veggies dont really replinish muscle glycogen.. fructose replinishes liver glycogen

man, i'd be a weak, shaky son of b**** without so many grams of complex carbs a day... and im sure id look flat as f*** too

butterflyd baked chicken and steamed veggies
 
:food::yumyum:
3 seven layers burritos, nachos & cheese(taco bell)
:fart::wtf1: my bad:friday:
1 cheeseburger(mcdonalds)
2 slices of pizza(domino's)
1 string cheese
2 cans of coke
:toilet::shhh:
 
suresha said:
:food:
3 seven layers burritos, nachos & cheese(taco bell)
1 cheeseburger:burger:(mcdonalds)
2 slices of pizza(domino's)
1 string cheese
2 cans of coke
:yumyum::toilet::shhh:
Click to expand...

christ that sounds amazing right about now
 
1 large chicken breast w/ hot sauce, pomegranate sauce(apple sauce thing with antioxidants), fiber plus bar.
 
3/4lb baconator from Wendys
Rockstar
2 macadamian nut cookies

mmm cheat meals :)
 
2 cans of tuna
bagel with 5 slices deli turkey

NOM NOM NOM

oh and some epi ;)
 
3 large slices of pizza and a triple scoop waffle cone from baskin robins-CHEAT MEAL!
 
bezoe said:
yea i know protein spikes insulin but the fruits and veggies dont really replinish muscle glycogen.. fructose replinishes liver glycogen

man, i'd be a weak, shaky son of b**** without so many grams of complex carbs a day... and im sure id look flat as f*** too

butterflyd baked chicken and steamed veggies
Click to expand...

this is true, fructose replenishes liver glycogen and not muscle. liver glycogen levels are also critical in keeping a good blood glucose level and its used for brain and other sources of the body. muscle glycogen is used only for very high energy expenditures and it replenishes itself over night. unless you are lifting at 90% with little rest periods for 2 hours, you wont deplete it significantly..and whatever you do deplete will restore itself. so unles you have another training session that day, it is not critical to replenish the glycogen.

its a very old misconception that you will be all weak and flat. complex carbs dont make you strong. in fact once your glycogen stores are full, the carbs from complex carbs get stored directly as body fat. if you are eating complex carbs all day, you are also carrying a s*** ton of water considering you are 240. for every excess gram of glycogen you store 3 grams of water. carrying water around in your muscles is useless, its not real weight. I definitely saw that in myself, once i stopped eating complex carbs and went completely paleo I lost around 10 lbs and it was pure water because i didnt lose any strength and only got more cut and shredded. i also cut up completely to an 8 pack, where before I was so bloated from grains I felt like i was pregnant.

as far as energy goes, I have tons of it and I power through 4 two hour mma/bjj sessions every week and lift 2-3 times. i eat only fruits and vegetables as far as carbs go.

complex carbs are just empty calories in my opinion. they are starchy and spike your blood sugar like a motherefffr. so you get insulin spikes throughout the day which leads to fat gain and diabetes. there are no vitamins in bread/pasta/grains and very little minerals arent absorbed because of phytates. plus all the issues with gluten and un needed amounts of insoluble fiber that just grind on the intestinal lining.

not trying to start any arguements here, just throwing my 2 cents in. perhaps if you are training super hard then complex carbs have their place, but only Post WO because any other time you dont benefit from them at all.
 
AntonG42O said:
this is true, fructose replenishes liver glycogen and not muscle. liver glycogen levels are also critical in keeping a good blood glucose level and its used for brain and other sources of the body. muscle glycogen is used only for very high energy expenditures and it replenishes itself over night. unless you are lifting at 90% with little rest periods for 2 hours, you wont deplete it significantly..and whatever you do deplete will restore itself. so unles you have another training session that day, it is not critical to replenish the glycogen.

its a very old misconception that you will be all weak and flat. complex carbs dont make you strong. in fact once your glycogen stores are full, the carbs from complex carbs get stored directly as body fat. if you are eating complex carbs all day, you are also carrying a s*** ton of water considering you are 240. for every excess gram of glycogen you store 3 grams of water. carrying water around in your muscles is useless, its not real weight. I definitely saw that in myself, once i stopped eating complex carbs and went completely paleo I lost around 10 lbs and it was pure water because i didnt lose any strength and only got more cut and shredded. i also cut up completely to an 8 pack, where before I was so bloated from grains I felt like i was pregnant.

as far as energy goes, I have tons of it and I power through 4 two hour mma/bjj sessions every week and lift 2-3 times. i eat only fruits and vegetables as far as carbs go.

complex carbs are just empty calories in my opinion. they are starchy and spike your blood sugar like a motherefffr. so you get insulin spikes throughout the day which leads to fat gain and diabetes. there are no vitamins in bread/pasta/grains and very little minerals arent absorbed because of phytates. plus all the issues with gluten and un needed amounts of insoluble fiber that just grind on the intestinal lining.

not trying to start any arguements here, just throwing my 2 cents in. perhaps if you are training super hard then complex carbs have their place, but only Post WO because any other time you dont benefit from them at all.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to an extent. I've gone Paleo for about 6 weeks and felt terrible and depleted. I feel much, much better when I implement a hefty amount of carbs into my diet (300+g/day) and there's also a bit of an information twist in your post. An insulin "spike" is very ambiguous as far as an exact amount goes and this happens when the body consumes protein as well. Hell, Leucine spikes insulin at a dose of just 3-5g while complex carbs do not have a huge response from a dose like that.

Having full glycogen stores is important and you want to be carrying around that water because this is what helps you to train for long periods of time. A major, major problem with reduced carb diets is hydration levels and not all complex carbs are starchy.

Again, you make some good points, but you're twisting the information to help your argument.
 
Rodja said:
I agree with you to an extent. I've gone Paleo for about 6 weeks and felt terrible and depleted. I feel much, much better when I implement a hefty amount of carbs into my diet (300+g/day) and there's also a bit of an information twist in your post. An insulin "spike" is very ambiguous as far as an exact amount goes and this happens when the body consumes protein as well. Hell, Leucine spikes insulin at a dose of just 3-5g while complex carbs do not have a huge response from a dose like that.

Having full glycogen stores is important and you want to be carrying around that water because this is what helps you to train for long periods of time. A major, major problem with reduced carb diets is hydration levels and not all complex carbs are starchy.

Again, you make some good points, but you're twisting the information to help your argument.
Click to expand...

alright well if the insulin spike is ambiguous, the blood sugar spike is very definite. most complex carbs are at the top of GI scale and have a glycemic load thats much larger than fruit.

im surprised that you didnt feel good on paleo. i have so much more energy when i wake up, seasonal allergies are gone, i recover from workouts much faster. eating more fats give me sustainable energy without ups and downs and I have leaned out to no more than 6-7%.

i guess works for some but not others
 
also ive never seen any studies or trials done to show that carrying more water helps athletic performance
 
AntonG42O said:
this is true, fructose replenishes liver glycogen and not muscle. liver glycogen levels are also critical in keeping a good blood glucose level and its used for brain and other sources of the body. muscle glycogen is used only for very high energy expenditures and it replenishes itself over night. unless you are lifting at 90% with little rest periods for 2 hours, you wont deplete it significantly..and whatever you do deplete will restore itself. so unles you have another training session that day, it is not critical to replenish the glycogen.

its a very old misconception that you will be all weak and flat. complex carbs dont make you strong. in fact once your glycogen stores are full, the carbs from complex carbs get stored directly as body fat. if you are eating complex carbs all day, you are also carrying a s*** ton of water considering you are 240. for every excess gram of glycogen you store 3 grams of water. carrying water around in your muscles is useless, its not real weight. I definitely saw that in myself, once i stopped eating complex carbs and went completely paleo I lost around 10 lbs and it was pure water because i didnt lose any strength and only got more cut and shredded. i also cut up completely to an 8 pack, where before I was so bloated from grains I felt like i was pregnant.

as far as energy goes, I have tons of it and I power through 4 two hour mma/bjj sessions every week and lift 2-3 times. i eat only fruits and vegetables as far as carbs go.

complex carbs are just empty calories in my opinion. they are starchy and spike your blood sugar like a motherefffr. so you get insulin spikes throughout the day which leads to fat gain and diabetes. there are no vitamins in bread/pasta/grains and very little minerals arent absorbed because of phytates. plus all the issues with gluten and un needed amounts of insoluble fiber that just grind on the intestinal lining.

not trying to start any arguements here, just throwing my 2 cents in. perhaps if you are training super hard then complex carbs have their place, but only Post WO because any other time you dont benefit from them at all.
Click to expand...

Complex carbohydrates are empty calories? I agree carbohydrates can lead to excess water weight and body fat, but to categorize as empty calories is nonsense.

1 C. of empty calories (OATS)
2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites.
1/2 c. blue berries.
 
AnthonyIOSOS said:
Complex carbohydrates are empty calories? I agree carbohydrates can lead to excess water weight and body fat, but to categorize as empty calories is nonsense.

1 C. of empty calories (OATS)
2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites.
1/2 c. blue berries.
Click to expand...

Nonsense? show me what you are getting out of bread/pasta/oatmeal? there are no vitamins, no essential fatty acids, the traces of minerals that they contain dont get absorbed because of phytates. what do you get, fiber? everything contains fiber..fruits vegetables red meat etc. there is no need to take in extra insoluble fiber on top of a regular diet. so what you are left with is a highly glycemic carb that carries no other nutritional value. potato is a little different, it does provide a tiny bit of vitamins but still traces.

the whole idea is that you can improve your health/diet by eating something that your body can actually utilize instead of those oats. more fat, vegetables, some soft of animal. instead with oats you got a glycemic index of around 50 with no health benefits.
 
2 grilled chicken thighs
100g of whole wheat pasta
handful of raw green beans
1 raw carrot
little bit of low fat french dressing :)
 
AntonG42O said:
this is true, fructose replenishes liver glycogen and not muscle. liver glycogen levels are also critical in keeping a good blood glucose level and its used for brain and other sources of the body. muscle glycogen is used only for very high energy expenditures and it replenishes itself over night. unless you are lifting at 90% with little rest periods for 2 hours, you wont deplete it significantly..and whatever you do deplete will restore itself. so unles you have another training session that day, it is not critical to replenish the glycogen.

its a very old misconception that you will be all weak and flat. complex carbs dont make you strong. in fact once your glycogen stores are full, the carbs from complex carbs get stored directly as body fat. if you are eating complex carbs all day, you are also carrying a s*** ton of water considering you are 240. for every excess gram of glycogen you store 3 grams of water. carrying water around in your muscles is useless, its not real weight. I definitely saw that in myself, once i stopped eating complex carbs and went completely paleo I lost around 10 lbs and it was pure water because i didnt lose any strength and only got more cut and shredded. i also cut up completely to an 8 pack, where before I was so bloated from grains I felt like i was pregnant.

as far as energy goes, I have tons of it and I power through 4 two hour mma/bjj sessions every week and lift 2-3 times. i eat only fruits and vegetables as far as carbs go.

complex carbs are just empty calories in my opinion. they are starchy and spike your blood sugar like a motherefffr. so you get insulin spikes throughout the day which leads to fat gain and diabetes. there are no vitamins in bread/pasta/grains and very little minerals arent absorbed because of phytates. plus all the issues with gluten and un needed amounts of insoluble fiber that just grind on the intestinal lining.

not trying to start any arguements here, just throwing my 2 cents in. perhaps if you are training super hard then complex carbs have their place, but only Post WO because any other time you dont benefit from them at all.
Click to expand...

i train about 1- 1.5 hours 4-5 days a week (on cycle).. utilize very brief R.I.'s and i cycle carbs. im not sure how glycogen replinishes itself?

in my experience, complex carbs DO make you strong, that is, if using the glycolytic pathway during exercise, which i believe is like 10 -30 sec of energy expenditure.

i agree with the excess "spilling over" into fat storage but like i said, i cycle carbs, i dont eat them all day. Plus im aware that 20%, i believe, of muscle weight is glycogen.

if i wanna prep for a contest, i mite go depleted in order to display muscle striations and such, but i feel that the water and glycogen is imperative to joint lubrication and muscle contractions... with your long sessions of bjj, your body probably converts to fat burning (oxidative) mode, which enables you to train long at high intensity

im pretty sure frequent insulin spikes caused by slow release of glucose from glycogen stores are encouraged.. that is, continual uptake of nutrients into the cells- complex carbs accomplish this. Its the giant surge of insulin caused by ingesting simple, high GI forms of saccharrides that promote D.M.

i always welcome a healthy argument.. especially one from which i can learn something :bigok:
 
double bacon cheese burger with 2 fried eggs on it... All on a whole wheat bun.. YUM
 
AntonG42O said:
alright well if the insulin spike is ambiguous, the blood sugar spike is very definite. most complex carbs are at the top of GI scale and have a glycemic load thats much larger than fruit.

im surprised that you didnt feel good on paleo. i have so much more energy when i wake up, seasonal allergies are gone, i recover from workouts much faster. eating more fats give me sustainable energy without ups and downs and I have leaned out to no more than 6-7%.

i guess works for some but not others
Click to expand...

The GI is a very flawed measure for food because no one in their right mind eats a carb-only meal. Add in some protein, fats, and veggies and the GI is vastly altered.

My main agreements on Paleo is this:
High produce intake (very anti-inflammatory and nutrient dense)
Little to no gluten

My disagreements:
Eliminating complex carbs; very important to the performance athlete (even Paleo-centric athletes will agree on this)
Hydration problems

Also, I think you're mixing up water retention/bloating and intracellular hydration. Having water within the muscle cell is very important to performance. However, having 10 lbs around your gut is not.
 
isnt the bodys first choice of nutrients to expend for energy carbs? I know on the keto diet for example the body would rahter burn fat but I think if carbs r present thats the bodys first choice?
 
AntonG42O said:
alright well if the insulin spike is ambiguous, the blood sugar spike is very definite. most complex carbs are at the top of GI scale and have a glycemic load thats much larger than fruit.

im surprised that you didnt feel good on paleo. i have so much more energy when i wake up, seasonal allergies are gone, i recover from workouts much faster. eating more fats give me sustainable energy without ups and downs and I have leaned out to no more than 6-7%.

i guess works for some but not others
Click to expand...

Works for those of us that aren't addicted to the sugar rush from eating carbs.
With any diet the body tries to predict what amounts of nutrients it will be receiving and compensate as such. For example, if one's daily meals always begin with a protein shake upon awakening, go one day without the shake and you'll notice a difference in alertness, strength and appetite for the rest of the day. After a period of time(3-4) weeks of no early morning shake however, one won't feel the same effects they felt on day 1 of the lack of shake, the body has adjusted to the new diet regimen. The same thing happens with carbs, go without them (really go without them, no cheat days every week) and see for yourself if your body doesn't get used to being fed only proteins and fibers. Eventually you'll be shredded and lean with the same strength as when you were 10% heavier.
The need for carbs is in our heads
 
timmmah said:
Works for those of us that aren't addicted to the sugar rush from eating carbs.
With any diet the body tries to predict what amounts of nutrients it will be receiving and compensate as such. For example, if one's daily meals always begin with a protein shake upon awakening, go one day without the shake and you'll notice a difference in alertness, strength and appetite for the rest of the day. After a period of time(3-4) weeks of no early morning shake however, one won't feel the same effects they felt on day 1 of the lack of shake, the body has adjusted to the new diet regimen. The same thing happens with carbs, go without them (really go without them, no cheat days every week) and see for yourself if your body doesn't get used to being fed only proteins and fibers. Eventually you'll be shredded and lean with the same strength as when you were 10% heavier.
The need for carbs is in our heads
Click to expand...

exactly, im just as strong as i was before and im at my all time leanest. i do wanna look more into the hydration discussion tho.
 
timmmah said:
Works for those of us that aren't addicted to the sugar rush from eating carbs.
With any diet the body tries to predict what amounts of nutrients it will be receiving and compensate as such. For example, if one's daily meals always begin with a protein shake upon awakening, go one day without the shake and you'll notice a difference in alertness, strength and appetite for the rest of the day. After a period of time(3-4) weeks of no early morning shake however, one won't feel the same effects they felt on day 1 of the lack of shake, the body has adjusted to the new diet regimen. The same thing happens with carbs, go without them (really go without them, no cheat days every week) and see for yourself if your body doesn't get used to being fed only proteins and fibers. Eventually you'll be shredded and lean with the same strength as when you were 10% heavier.
The need for carbs is in our heads
Click to expand...

yea this is called ketogenesis. it works well to keep someone "shredded" but youre gonna have a hard time putting on any mass without carbs

even the keto diets suggest a "refeed" where glycogen supercompensation creates immense anabolism

i guess it depends on your goals, but for bodybuilding purposes i feel that carbs are essential
 
AnthonyIOSOS said:
To get to where you are at now, did you consume carbohydrates?
Click to expand...

yea but i gained a bunch of fat too. now i can gain weight just as easily by eating more fat and the weight is clean and shredded. and im retaining barely any water so any gain right now looks much better than before.

hey man if it works for you then by all means eat all the carbs you can eat. i feel and look better eating this way so i was just throwing this out there u know
 
AntonG42O said:
yea but i gained a bunch of fat too. now i can gain weight just as easily by eating more fat and the weight is clean and shredded. and im retaining barely any water so any gain right now looks much better than before.

hey man if it works for you then by all means eat all the carbs you can eat. i feel and look better eating this way so i was just throwing this out there u know
Click to expand...

I also used to consume high amounts of carbohydrates for strength and size. Now and days my carbohydrate intake has been cut in half to assist with losing body fat and the noticeable water retention. At this point in my life I can consume minimum to no carbohydrates while keeping my gains and looking better.

Point is, carbohydrates do have their places in bodybuilding.
 
bezoe said:
yea this is called ketogenesis. it works well to keep someone "shredded" but youre gonna have a hard time putting on any mass without carbs

even the keto diets suggest a "refeed" where glycogen supercompensation creates immense anabolism

i guess it depends on your goals, but for bodybuilding purposes i feel that carbs are essential
Click to expand...

This is 100% correct not to mention vital brain functions require carbohydrates. Go 2 weeks with no carbs and try to do a memory intensive job/schooling, it will be nearly impossible to succeed. Carbs are overeaten in the west, we all know this, but they have their place and are essential for any athlete who trains at a high level. Do you need 400 grams a day, no. I can grow off of 100-200 grams of carbs and continue to lean out at that level as well. I am sure Paleo is an effective diet and lifestyle but I view it as overly expensive based on the food choices and more than likely extremely inconvenient if you are not able to eat the foods the diet calls for.

Hydration based on when you are thirsty is flat out retarded and I will sit here and scream that until I am blue in the face. The body needs copious amounts of water to maintain anabolism and protein synthesis, process foods in the colon, flush the kidneys and liver, I could go on and on. Also, one of the best ways to stay lean and appear dry is a high water intake. 1.5-2 gallons keeps my skin taught and I appear leaner than I am since I don't hold a lot of sub-q water. I can actually drop a few pounds in a day by upping my water intake to 2 gallons, funny how that works. If I restrict it, I hold a lot of water and appear flat and bloated. Interesting debate, a thread should be started on this. :bigok:
 
it is a little bit expensive, even though ive been able to find good deals on grass fed beef and uncured bacon. whole foods usually has grass fed ground beef thats basically all chuck just ground up. ive been buying canned salmon, its always wild caught with skin and bones and all the good stuff.
 
AntonG42O said:
it is a little bit expensive, even though ive been able to find good deals on grass fed beef and uncured bacon. whole foods usually has grass fed ground beef thats basically all chuck just ground up. ive been buying canned salmon, its always wild caught with skin and bones and all the good stuff.
Click to expand...

That may be the case, I know Whole Foods does have some meats that are reasonably priced but not all that much. I do find it interesting that was all you got out of my post and commented on... I was expecting more of a response to be honest ;). It is a valid debate that needs a thread. :deal:
 
oufinny said:
That may be the case, I know Whole Foods does have some meats that are reasonably priced but not all that much. I do find it interesting that was all you got out of my post and commented on... I was expecting more of a response to be honest ;). It is a valid debate that needs a thread. :deal:
Click to expand...

hahaha im at work i think i got interrupted. keto diets are manageable but any sort of activity like lifting weights is much more difficult. I also continue to grow and lean out from 100-200 grams, its just all coming from fruits and vegetables because i eliminated grains. In paleo you arent giving up that much. Just grains and dairy. well and processed sugars of course, thats a given. I was very curious about it at first and read up on some anthropology, and we do indeed posess a body of a hunter/gatherer. Grains do indeed contain anti-nutrients that protect their procreation, this causes tiny levels of inflammation that builds up over time.

I used to pound a bunch of oatmeal before going to BJJ and it would give me this wicked heartburn. I could never get shredded even though im an ectomorph. My seasonal allergies used to be through the roof. Now that ive switched to paleo I never get heartburn, im shredded and just as strong, allergies are gone. i have plenty of energy for all my bjj/lifting workouts. its jsut one of those things that will work for some and not for others i guess.
 
AntonG42O said:
hahaha im at work i think i got interrupted. keto diets are manageable but any sort of activity like lifting weights is much more difficult. I also continue to grow and lean out from 100-200 grams, its just all coming from fruits and vegetables because i eliminated grains. In paleo you arent giving up that much. Just grains and dairy. well and processed sugars of course, thats a given. I was very curious about it at first and read up on some anthropology, and we do indeed posess a body of a hunter/gatherer. Grains do indeed contain anti-nutrients that protect their procreation, this causes tiny levels of inflammation that builds up over time.

I used to pound a bunch of oatmeal before going to BJJ and it would give me this wicked heartburn. I could never get shredded even though im an ectomorph. My seasonal allergies used to be through the roof. Now that ive switched to paleo I never get heartburn, im shredded and just as strong, allergies are gone. i have plenty of energy for all my bjj/lifting workouts. its jsut one of those things that will work for some and not for others i guess.
Click to expand...

I am happy you expanded on your thought; that is similar to some other posts I have read about it. My problem is I more than likely cannot easily diet as such with my live in GF and her carb/sugar addiction. It is about impossible for me to get completely away from any processed carbs at this moment in time but I would like to do something like this for 8 weeks to see how it goes. The noticeable health benefits you are seeing are what I am most intrigued by.
 
oufinny said:
I am happy you expanded on your thought; that is similar to some other posts I have read about it. My problem is I more than likely cannot easily diet as such with my live in GF and her carb/sugar addiction. It is about impossible for me to get completely away from any processed carbs at this moment in time but I would like to do something like this for 8 weeks to see how it goes. The noticeable health benefits you are seeing are what I am most intrigued by.
Click to expand...

Yea the paleo people call it the 30 day challenge. OH! and i almost forgot... Ive become much much less sensitive to the sun. this is something ive talked to people about on paleo forums. no sunscreen ever and barely any burn at all. even when i do burn it doesnt even last 2 days and turns into tan. this is coming from a seriously white dude. im super tan right now and havent used sun block more than just a dab here and there.

try to get ur GF to kick the sugar at least, that sh#t will lead straight to diabetes
 
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