Team Juggernaut ft. Booneman77 - 3 months to Mass!

[booneman77]

ANY cardio at this point should be for health benefits... If you were cutting then I could see it. Hell man I prepped for my show with 3 45-60 minute LISS sessions a week! Use calories to get this going... Build and Burn days...A big surplus on the Build days and a big deficit on Burn days. That or running in Build and Burn blocks. Makes recomp easy, and easier to control.

That’s my thought as well. My leanest ever I was doing 3-5, 20-30min limping sessions (torn hamstring) a week. This is already more than I’ve done in years.

We talked a bit yesterday and he had said he would present a few options by the afternoon but messaged me later if it would be ok to run my info/results by a colleague dietician/nutritionist at UofM athletics to get some more input and confirmation. Of course I’m all about any new opinions so I said go for it.

Plan is to have something new today (better be) and I told him I would just do bcaas through the day today until I hear back rather than waste another day going the wrong direction with the current diet.

Training and cardio will stay exactly the same for a third week to eliminate any new variables.

Also going to have a phone call to discuss this evening to get everything clear.

 

[MrKleen73]

Sounds good, and at least he is using other resources to try and figure things out. At least you know he is making an effort now, and not too proud to ask others opinions. This may end up turning out well for you just being the free guinea pig if he gets things dialed in that is.

 

[booneman77]

Sounds good, and at least he is using other resources to try and figure things out. At least you know he is making an effort now, and not too proud to ask others opinions. This may end up turning out well for you just being the free guinea pig if he gets things dialed in that is.

Yep thats really what I'm hoping for and one of the main reasons that I always wanted a coach; to have someone tinker and tweak things in ways I may not have. I know what works for me to some extent, but that doesn't mean I know what works best and I'd love to find a better way to do things than what I had been.

 

[booneman77]

Just got word that the changes will be to go "extremely low" fats, replacing with carbs/protein. This was the recommendation from the dietitian as per her analysis the issue seems to be resistance to the consistency of the diet thus far. So, formal diet is to be drawn up tonight and we will probably still have a call to discuss some things.

I will be interested to see how this goes as I've done plenty of long term low fat. One thing I have noticed is mood and what I imagine are hormonal improvements (as evidenced by libido) since adding more fats so this may put a bit of a damper on that. Hopefully not though as the fiance is certainly enjoying it ha

 

[Godstrength]

That’s my thought as well. My leanest ever I was doing 3-5, 20-30min limping sessions (torn hamstring) a week. This is already more than I’ve done in years.

We talked a bit yesterday and he had said he would present a few options by the afternoon but messaged me later if it would be ok to run my info/results by a colleague dietician/nutritionist at UofM athletics to get some more input and confirmation. Of course I’m all about any new opinions so I said go for it.

Plan is to have something new today (better be) and I told him I would just do bcaas through the day today until I hear back rather than waste another day going the wrong direction with the current diet.

Training and cardio will stay exactly the same for a third week to eliminate any new variables.

It seems like your starting to get the personalized attention. Good to see that happening Boone

 

[booneman77]

It seems like your starting to get the personalized attention. Good to see that happening Boone

Yes sir for sure. Either that or better lying haha.

 

[booneman77]

So the big change is basically as stated before, removal of all added fats... pb, egg yolks, olive oil all gone. replaced by more oats, some rice cakes, and a few more egg whites.Slight drop in cals (~100) as well, but nothing to write home about.

The biggest change is the fact that there are carbs throughout the whole day now (breakfast/snack/lunch/dinner/pre-bed). This will be interesting to see how this impacts my bloat levels as well as gym performance. I tend to hold a lot of water (especially with high carbs) so this may make it tough to see progress right away. As mentioned, lifts have all continued to increase so I would think more carbs pre would even increase that further but we shall see how the hormonal changes potentially balance that out.

 

[MrKleen73]

How low did the fats get dropped? We talking 50 a day, or a little more lax than that?

 

[booneman77]

How low did the fats get dropped? We talking 50 a day, or a little more lax than that?

Right about 50. Literally the only fats are the ones in my chicken portions and misc trace from oats and such. I may even be below that a bit as I tend to pick leaner chicken (tenders and such) vs the general "breast" one he had chosen for the mfp screenshot. Today, for example, comes out to 38 total.

 

[MrKleen73]

Right about 50. Literally the only fats are the ones in my chicken portions and misc trace from oats and such. I may even be below that a bit as I tend to pick leaner chicken (tenders and such) vs the general "breast" one he had chosen for the mfp screenshot. Today, for example, comes out to 38 total.

Man, my joints and my mental well being would be shot at 40 or below on a regular basis. I typically don't go less than 80 a day long term. I have no doubt it will make some changes though. One thing I recommend during the beginning is to be watchful for reactive hypo after some of your meals, especially is using easily digested carbs. If you are pretty insulin sensitive a low fat higher carb meal can send you hypo pretty easily.

I would probably ask him if it was okay since you use tenderloins to replace the estimated fat levels from the difference in meat cuts with some high quality fish oil.

 

[booneman77]

Man, my joints and my mental well being would be shot at 40 or below on a regular basis. I typically don't go less than 80 a day long term. I have no doubt it will make some changes though. One thing I recommend during the beginning is to be watchful for reactive hypo after some of your meals, especially is using easily digested carbs. If you are pretty insulin sensitive a low fat higher carb meal can send you hypo pretty easily.

I would probably ask him if it was okay since you use tenderloins to replace the estimated fat levels from the difference in meat cuts with some high quality fish oil.

hmm "reactive hypo" is not a term I was familiar with so I had to do some studying ha. I actually have never experienced any type of hypo symptoms (at least not to a degree that I would have really noticed outside of thinking "boy, im a bit tired") even when dosing gda's and such after long fasts and not eating (or other similar tend-to-go-hypo type circumstances).

Regardless, I would think it should not be too much of an issue either way as most of the meals are within a few hours of each other. It will be something to watch on my travel days though as there are going to be periods where I go longer spans without food (though I usually sleep on my planes anyways ha).

One thing I have already noticed just from this morning was that I was hungry (like grumbling stomach) within 3hrs of my first meal, which was actually about 2x the size of the ones I had been eating prior. certainly a digestion related change, but also listed as potential "reactive hypo" type side, though I wouldn't consider this anything of concern.

I am supplementing with fish oil already (just do not count it towards my totals since it was not a change prior to starting this diet) so there is some more in there from that.

 

[MrKleen73]

hmm "reactive hypo" is not a term I was familiar with so I had to do some studying ha. I actually have never experienced any type of hypo symptoms (at least not to a degree that I would have really noticed outside of thinking "boy, im a bit tired") even when dosing gda's and such after long fasts and not eating (or other similar tend-to-go-hypo type circumstances).

Regardless, I would think it should not be too much of an issue either way as most of the meals are within a few hours of each other. It will be something to watch on my travel days though as there are going to be periods where I go longer spans without food (though I usually sleep on my planes anyways ha).

One thing I have already noticed just from this morning was that I was hungry (like grumbling stomach) within 3hrs of my first meal, which was actually about 2x the size of the ones I had been eating prior. certainly a digestion related change, but also listed as potential "reactive hypo" type side, though I wouldn't consider this anything of concern.

I am supplementing with fish oil already (just do not count it towards my totals since it was not a change prior to starting this diet) so there is some more in there from that.

Yeah, I am sure you had a reactive dip in blood sugar then, and it is quite common. Normally it takes about 60-90 minutes post carb consumption, so eating every 3 hours still leaves you in that scenario. Also dipping blood sugar will make you ravenous as your scheduled meal times approach, people often mistake this for an increase in metabolism, because they start to get hungry more often, but it is a hormone driven hunger, not the result of suddenly needing 500 extra calories a day. Feeling hunger and needing more food do not always go hand in hand.

 

[booneman77]

Yeah, I am sure you had a reactive dip in blood sugar then, and it is quite common. Normally it takes about 60-90 minutes post carb consumption, so eating every 3 hours still leaves you in that scenario. Also dipping blood sugar will make you ravenous as your scheduled meal times approach, people often mistake this for an increase in metabolism, because they start to get hungry more often, but it is a hormone driven hunger, not the result of suddenly needing 500 extra calories a day. Feeling hunger and needing more food do not always go hand in hand.

haha if I ate every time I thought I was hungry i'd just never stop eating I've always wanted to be an "eat by feel/need" dieter, but know that my brain and bod do not agree on "necessary"

 

[MrKleen73]

haha if I ate every time I thought I was hungry i'd just never stop eating I've always wanted to be an "eat by feel/need" dieter, but know that my brain and bod do not agree on "necessary"

AMEN TO THAT!!!! I am so reactive to carbs, I produce a good bit of insulin compared to carbs I believe it is called hyper-insulemia. It is this that causes my family to be so type 2 diabetes prone. Knowing that, I proactively work to keep my insulin sensitivity higher. Since I am sensitive when I have a bunch of carbs and low fat the extra insulin I create really does it's thing. That is one of the reasons that I try to stay fat adapted to some degree. I can switch over with things getting too bad for me. I am to the point now I can feel when I go hypo, and I know if I wait 15-30 minutes I will actually feel when my blood sugar goes back up from the liver dumping glycogen.

Something I have just kind of become accustomed to happening on occasion. I have learned to manage it now but it took a while to figure out the combinations. I must have higher fats though or blood sugar becomes an issue due to the hyper-insulimia. However you spell that stuff...

 

[booneman77]

First day of the new diet in the books and back/bi's last night. Overall, nothing really special to comment on outside of the expected bloat that comes with every carb increase I've ever gotten. Pretty much regardless of type (high/low gi/fiber/etc) I hold a ton of water when I add carbs. As expected, I look and feel like a fat pig this morning ha. Did notice a bit better of a pump during my wokrout yesterday, specifically in the biceps exercises (which I have tweaked some slightly as I have begun to develop some tendinitis from the awkward things I've been unconsciously doing to work around my wrist pain). Weights for most of the major exercises (outside of any intensity technique type sets) continue to increase each week, but again, this is really only important if body comp is also improving... anyone can get strong and fat. The goal here is stay strong, but get lean too.

Off day today, Chest/tri's tomorrow, travel friday, weigh ins/pics saturday plus legs (always excited to squat ha). Let's hope things begin to turn around as I've pretty much decided that if after 2 more weeks (not counting this one) we are not headed the right direction, I will be taking the reins back and getting myself right. that will have given 8 weeks to transition from bulk to recomp and that is more than enough time to make a change and too long to be going backwards. Essentially at that point I will be a month behind schedule for where I need to be and that means more drastic cutting which is NOT what I wanted to be doing this year.

 

[MrKleen73]

You are still pretty lean, how lean do you want to be that you would need to cut aggressively to get to your goal? I wouldn't think you were more than 6-8 weeks away from your avatar if you focused on it, and should be able to get there without losing muscle in 12 weeks relatively easily.

 

[booneman77]

You are still pretty lean, how lean do you want to be that you would need to cut aggressively to get to your goal? I wouldn't think you were more than 6-8 weeks away from your avatar if you focused on it, and should be able to get there without losing muscle in 12 weeks relatively easily.

Ehhh I'v gotta be in the high teens bf. I have zero abs left (even when flexed I can barely see outlines of the top 2). To get to that avatar I'm def at least 12 weeks away. I wasn't even close to that level of lean at the start of this (maybe 12% to start, 8ish in that pic). I'm a painfully slow loser so even with a wicked cut (talking sub 2k cals) it would take a few months. Typically a cut for me lasts anywhere from 12-16 weeks to get from high teens to ~10 and those are usually pretty tough. I want to be able to do it much slower so I'm not losing as much muscle as that has always been the toughest part for me in making overall progress and the reason I had abandoned cut/bulk altogether in favor of staying around 12% and just working +/- a few lbs for vanity to make slow but steady progress.

I don't need to be shredded, but I also do not want to be cutting in July/August as that's crunch time for the wedding and I will have more than enough on my plate already at that time and don't want to have to fight to cut too. Goal is to be around 10% by July so I can cruise into the wedding at that level.

 

[MrKleen73]

Makes sense, isn't it crazy how different we all are? I can get fat so easily, but it tends to come off pretty easily when I actually apply myself to the task. Everyone is so different, however I can see why you work to stay 12 or below if it is that hard to drop fat without losing muscle.

I also agree you need to be where you want to be physique wise before the stress of the wedding hits peak levels. If not it will just be another source of stress.

 

[booneman77]

Makes sense, isn't it crazy how different we all are? I can get fat so easily, but it tends to come off pretty easily when I actually apply myself to the task. Everyone is so different, however I can see why you work to stay 12 or below if it is that hard to drop fat without losing muscle.

I also agree you need to be where you want to be physique wise before the stress of the wedding hits peak levels. If not it will just be another source of stress.

I figure half of my stress will be managing my mom, fiance, and mother in law and i can't be hangry for that haha!

 

[booneman77]

Another solid chest/tri workout with some small progress. Bloat has subsided over the last day or so. Looking forward to the scale and measurements sat to see.

Still feeling good mood/libido wise thus far as well which is a nice start.

30min on the step mill sucks the life out of life itself. Ugh do I dread the last ten min ha.

 

[MrKleen73]

Good deal!

I know you have goals to lean up for the wedding and are working toward it. Figured you might want to get in on this challenge thread... Get on in there!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/training-forum/300262-transformation-physique-goal.html

 

[booneman77]

Good deal!

I know you have goals to lean up for the wedding and are working toward it. Figured you might want to get in on this challenge thread... Get on in there!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/training-forum/300262-transformation-physique-goal.html

Done and in! Gonna put up a bottle of Xgels as well towards the prize pot

 

[booneman77]

Ughhhhh. Another week, another step backwards. Weight at 190 even, waist and hips both slightly increased again.

My frustration and mood right now are just awful. So much for “excited to weigh in”... again.

 

[Driven2lift]

Can’t win every week man. You’re putting the work in, the scale/tapes will show it soon.

Just being stressed can add water weight remember

I think I’m a couple pounds heavier than you right now and not where I was hoping to be either.

Plenty of time before the big day!

 

[booneman77]

Can’t win every week man. You’re putting the work in, the scale/tapes will show it soon.

Just being stressed can add water weight remember

I think I’m a couple pounds heavier than you right now and not where I was hoping to be either.

Plenty of time before the big day!

Yeah I totally get that but I’ve been getting further from my goal for 6+ weeks straight now and every change has gotten me further away.

Honestly the only day I get frustrated is weigh in day cuz I’m always so positive going into it ha. And by Sunday I’m hopeful again haha.

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah I totally get that but I’ve been getting further from my goal for 6+ weeks straight now and every change has gotten me further away.

Honestly the only day I get frustrated is weigh in day cuz I’m always so positive going into it ha. And by Sunday I’m hopeful again haha.

Looking at your pics from the transformation thread, you look like you got bigger muscularly too though. So if it comes off without losing your gains you will be happy in the end. You said you are giving it 1 or 2 more weeks before deciding to take back the reigns if you don't see positive movement? I think that is definitely giving it a fair shake with the time that has passed. You never know might get a whoosh effect here soon and see some positive effects.

I know you are frustrated but you definitely have some new muscle and increased strength from all of this. So there is that.

 

[rascal14]

Is there a side by side comparison from the start to now somewhere I am missing? I can’t find it lol

 

[Mowglisml]

Is there a side by side comparison from the start to now somewhere I am missing? I can’t find it lol

He posted updated pics in the transformation challenge.

Boone. Throw a side by side!

 

[booneman77]

Is there a side by side comparison from the start to now somewhere I am missing? I can’t find it lol

Not for awhile. I’ll throw one together

 

[booneman77]

Not for awhile. I’ll throw one together

 

[Mowglisml]

Huuuuge back gains! At least no love handles like me

 

[booneman77]

Huuuuge back gains! At least no love handles like me

Thanks man! I always see my own love handles ha. That little muffin over my boxers didn’t use to be there ha

 

[wesb2387]

Yea dude, you’re significantly bigger. All over in my opinion. Not in a bad way. You’re arm looks huge compared to the first pic

 

[booneman77]

Thanks guys.

Gave my results to my coach and both he and the dietitian are a bit befuddled. We’re going to stay pat with diet for one more week and he asked for my last bloodwork (March of last year) to see if anything stands out that might help. He said as a last resort we might have to drop cals but both he and the dietitian do not want to as they both seem convinced it would be too much of a deficit to hold muscle.

I have had an extra workout day (just abs) and another 30min cardio session (total of 5 workout days and 30min x 5 cardio Post workout).

 

[MrKleen73]

I can see some new size there but do understand the frustration with not being as lean also. Curious to see where this goes from here.

 

[booneman77]

I can see some new size there but do understand the frustration with not being as lean also. Curious to see where this goes from here.

I'm in such a conundrum... I know what I can achieve myself in terms of leanness, but also know that I tend to sacrifice some size so there is certainly room for improvement in how I do it... Having access to at least 1, and lately 2 (and different) professionals looking over my every intake and output is certainly something I'm really relishing the ability to have. There's a level of opinion, expertise,and analysis that I simply cannot do alone. But a goal is a goal, and we're not getting there their way... so its tough ha.

Im really hopeful that we can get things moving here soon because I hate to throw out this opportunity and if it were any other year (i.e. non-wedding/having my pic taken 204592485724 times and forever) I'd stick it out til we figure it out regardless since there wouldn't be any reason not to (unless after some excessive timeframe).

 

[booneman77]

Pretty funny and “good to hear” conversation tonight. Consider my mood and motivation lifted again (for the week ha)

 

[MrKleen73]

Awesome!!! Now you are getting inside their head too!!! Gotta love that.

 

[booneman77]

Awesome!!! Now you are getting inside their head too!!! Gotta love that.

yep, the more heads, the better! I'm enjoying being the human experiment (except when it doesn't work haha)

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah, but the thing is once they figure things out results could come faster than you have ever experienced. You never know. I don't blame you for trying to stick it out as long as possible.

 

[booneman77]

Yeah, but the thing is once they figure things out results could come faster than you have ever experienced. You never know. I don't blame you for trying to stick it out as long as possible.

Exactly - and thus my weekly hopefulness that has been getting smashed and revived every weekend.

Coach wants me to weigh in tomorrow morning to check up. Gonna be using a different scale at the gym in WI vs my home scale but should be enough of a reference to make a call on

 

[booneman77]

Morning weight....

194.6lb..... woof.

a couple caveats to this number tho: 1) its a different scale (the digital at the Planet Fitness by my hotel; did confirm/double check with the analog one in my room that was 193-5ish tho) 2) weigh time was only 5-6hrs after my last meal vs normal 10+ on weekends when I sleep in. That said, even witha few extra trips to the bathroom, I'm not going to drop 5lb in a few hrs so there is enough there IMO to say its going the wrong way again.Coach is going to get back to me a bit later after AM in-person clients.

 

[MrKleen73]

Wow that is crazy, I have never heard of anyone needing fat cut down like that due to bloating from carbs. Typically people increase fats and lower carbs when the carbs are giving them a fit. Interested to see what is next.

 

[booneman77]

Wow that is crazy, I have never heard of anyone needing fat cut down like that due to bloating from carbs. Typically people increase fats and lower carbs when the carbs are giving them a fit. Interested to see what is next.

yeah i see it going one of two ways: most likely, carbs will just get moved earlier in the day. less likely but what will almost certainly ahve to happen soon is a calorie drop and prob a volume drop with it.

5 days or workouts and 30min of cardio on top of each is a ton of volume to not be seeing any weight change which says to me calories are just too high regardless of macros (since both higher and lower fat did the same)

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah, it is wild how much you are working and not heading in the right direction. What are your current caloric levels?

 

[booneman77]

Yeah, it is wild how much you are working and not heading in the right direction. What are your current caloric levels?

2540 is where I’ve been the last two weeks. Before that low-mid 2600s. I’ve been at or slightly below every day too. Not a single day over by even a cal ha.

 

[booneman77]

Confirmed my weight this morning on my home scale (got in at 2am last night ughh). 194.2lb which means a 4+lb gain in the last few days. I text my coach and said I wont stay on this diet another day longer as its been 12 days and I've gained 4lb. Told him to let me know what changes we are making asap. In the interim, I'm gonna remove some of the early day carbs until I hear back from him but I better see some decently size changes to the doet or this will be the last week. This has gone beyond the "not making progress" phase and is in full fat gain/backslide status.

 

[MrKleen73]

Wait a minute you are only at 2450 and they are throwing up the red flag of can't go any lower on caloric intake? So they have been trying to make your body respond to their diet and not trying to make the diet around what your body responds too...

You told them already that your metabolism was slower and you didn't need that many calories to gain or maintain muscle...

 

[booneman77]

Wait a minute you are only at 2450 and they are throwing up the red flag of can't go any lower on caloric intake? So they have been trying to make your body respond to their diet and not trying to make the diet around what your body responds too...

You told them already that your metabolism was slower and you didn't need that many calories to gain or maintain muscle...

25! not even 2400s ha. Immediate change for today was originally proposed to drop the banana post workout but I argued that seemed illogical and we came to the conclusion that we needed to drop pre bed oats instead. He said he is going to redo the cals and macros later today and reset tomorrow. I will be interested to see how much the cals drop becuase as you said (and I agree) clearly that is where the changes need to occur. More work is really not even in the conversation at this point as we're at 5 lifts and 5x30 cardio... thats cutting levels IMO and leaves NO room for exercise calorie expenditure if I do need to cut hard.

 

[MrKleen73]

Agreed, you have no issues with muscle mass, and gain on low calories but have no issues staying lean year round. You obviously are not suffering from metabolic damage so perhaps you are just much more efficient in how you put calories to use.

My calories tend to be about 1000 less than people expect, but once I get to a lower fat burning calorie level I don't have to make big jumps to keep it moving... For example I started my contest diet out at 210lbs and 2500cal and was only down to 1800 by contest day 20 weeks later, and had not lost hardly any LBM at all.