Team Juggernaut ft. Booneman77 - 3 months to Mass!

BennyMagoo79

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Hey dude, i am late in on this and just started catching up on it, great log! Have you been tracking blood ketone levels? Based on your bloodwork, I am wondering if your liver might be struggling with ketone production.
 
booneman77

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Hey dude, i am late in on this and just started catching up on it, great log! Have you been tracking blood ketone levels? Based on your bloodwork, I am wondering if your liver might be struggling with ketone production.
Welcome (although admittedly I'm not plannign ot be as thorough going forward ha)

I have not and am not on a keto diet as of the last week and a half ha. Do you have any experience with the mentioned issue though? would be curious to hear more
 
booneman77

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Strange stuff is afoot with that blood work... Were you able to find any correlation for why some people end up with an LDL spike from Keto? I would be very curious on that one.
A couple excerpts from some things I stumbled across:
"some people have seen their total, HDL and LDL cholesterol levels increase anywhere from 50% to 200% or more after switching to a low-carb or keto diet. Although a few are overweight or metabolically unhealthy, many of these individuals belong to a group that Dave Feldman at Cholesterol Code calls Lean Mass Hyper-responders (LMHRs): healthy, thin and/or athletic people with LDL cholesterol values of 200 mg/dL (5.2 mmol/L) or higher.

Over the past two years Feldman, a software engineer with a strong interest in science, has performed several dozen experiments on himself and collected data from a number of other keto and low-carb dieters whose cholesterol levels have increased far beyond the “optimal” range. However, whether this is problematic or not isn't entirely clear, especially since their other biomarkers typically improve or remain stable.
"

"Within those averages, it appears that a subset of people on a low-carb ketogenic diet DO get a rise in Total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol and LDL particle number.

“I and other lipidologists and many patients themselves are starting to see that the above lipid response to a high fat diet as not being very rare response in people who abandon carbs and replace it with saturated fat, especially so in those doing extreme carb restriction to achieve nutritional ketosis.”

“The true incidence remains to be determined but experienced colleagues who have a lot of patients on low carb diets advise it is about 1/3 of patients”
- DR. Thomas Dayspring (lipidoligist)

What is a Hyper-Responder?
The term, “hyper-responder” has been used within the ketogenic / low carb, high fat (keto/LCHF) community to describe those who have a very dramatic increase in their cholesterol after adopting a low carb diet. This increase can be anywhere from 50% to 100% or more of their original, pre-diet cholesterol numbers.

Typically, a keto/LCHF hyper-responder will have LDL cholesterol (LDL-C) at 170 mg/dl or higher.

How many of those practicing a keto/LCHF diet are hyper-responders?
Because the keto/LCHF community is relatively small, the total number of hyper-responders as a percentage of the whole is unknown. But estimates vary between 5% to 33%.

Is having high LDL cholesterol (LDL-C) on a keto/LCHF diet dangerous?
This is the important question, of course. The short answer is – we don’t know.

As of this writing, I have much more confidence there are good reasons LDL-C could be high and bad reasons LDL-C could be high. And these reasons aren’t mutually exclusive.

Good reasons:

The body is transporting more fat for energy to your cells due to being on a high-fat diet. Since cholesterol “ride shares” with these fatty acids in LDL “boats”, it shows up in higher quantities in a blood test. This is typically shown in a blood test where there are low triglycerides (the cargo is distributed easily).
The body is healing from a temporary injury. (You probably want that)
The body is recovering from a temporary infection. (You probably want that too)
Bad reasons:

The body is attempting to provide energy to your tissues via LDL, but cells are insulin resistant or they are overloaded, and thus unwilling to take in more. This leads to more residence time of VLDLs (the precursor to LDLs) in a “traffic jam” of the bloodstream. This is typically shown in a blood test where there are high triglycerides (the energy “cargo” is difficult to distribute). Often, this suggests a particular profile with the LDL particles which — when combined with low HDL-C — is known as Atherogenic Dyslipidemia.
The body is trying to heal from a chronic condition, yet failing. This leads to chronically elevated LDL.
(More will be added to this section soon, but the above two cover the largest categories…)

Are there any factors that might predispose one to be a hyper-responder?
In my research to date, I believe the largest influence of one being a hyper-responder is how lean and/or fit they are while likewise following a keto/LCHF diet. While unintuitive, those who are lean and/or fit often exhibit the highest LDL-C and LDL-P numbers we see (along with impressively high HDL and incredibly low triglycerides). At the furthest end of this spectrum is a profile I call “Lean Mass Hyper-responder” and detail it here. [Geeky technical explanation: This makes perfect sense mechanistically, as the body is both fueled by fat while likewise working with adipose tissue (body fat) mass for “staging”, thus theoretically, there is the likely greater need for “global distribution” of fat-based energy via VLDL turnover than “local distribution” via adipocytes. more on that in an upcoming post.]
These are the four other most commonly referenced factors to becoming a hyper-responder:

Familial hypercholesterolemia (FH) – A genetic disorder that presents early with higher cholesterol, and in particular, high LDL. However, this is less likely if the hyper-responder had “normal” ranges of cholesterol before starting the low carb diet given FH would have likely shown beforehand as well. (See here for more information.)
One or two copies of the ApoE4 gene – this gene has long been identified with higher risk for elevated cholesterol. Anecdotally, many hyper-responders find they have one or two copies of the ApoE4 gene; 3/4 or 4/4 pattern. (I myself have the 3/4 pattern, which I found through my test with 23andMe. See here for more information.)
Hypothyroidism – when the body’s thyroid slows down, it leads to a slow down in the production of LDL receptors. These receptors are important for usage, and, ultimately, clearance of LDL from the bloodstream. (See here for more information.)
Hyper-synthesizer. Generally in reference to someone with insulin resistance who experiences an abnormally high production of cholesterol. (See BJJ Caveman’s lecture notes for more information.)
 
Driven2lift

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Are those first bunch of quotes out of a study?
Just wondering what data or study they looked at when concluding lipids would worsen.

I feel like this may have included data from something not controlling for the ratios of fat types consumed... I could be wrong we just see improvement so often in controlled study that seems strange.

Sorry, totally useless to your issue.

The thyroid bit is legit, had that convo with my endo as I’m also hypo and on TRT with past liver issues, even though I’ve never had lipids out of range it comes up.

Last I remember talking about your thyroid you were back up into range correct? But something was still off was it low end t3 or was it that you just still felt the sides of hypo?
 
BennyMagoo79

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Welcome (although admittedly I'm not plannign ot be as thorough going forward ha)

I have not and am not on a keto diet as of the last week and a half ha. Do you have any experience with the mentioned issue though? would be curious to hear more
I don't have any first hand experience with the keto approach beyond trying it once and giving up after a couple of days. I was just wondering whether your elevated liver enzymes are a result of increased ketone production, or perhaps relflect some hepatic dysfunction, which would likely impair ketone production.
 
booneman77

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Are those first bunch of quotes out of a study?
Just wondering what data or study they looked at when concluding lipids would worsen.

I feel like this may have included data from something not controlling for the ratios of fat types consumed... I could be wrong we just see improvement so often in controlled study that seems strange.

Sorry, totally useless to your issue.

The thyroid bit is legit, had that convo with my endo as I’m also hypo and on TRT with past liver issues, even though I’ve never had lipids out of range it comes up.

Last I remember talking about your thyroid you were back up into range correct? But something was still off was it low end t3 or was it that you just still felt the sides of hypo?
It’s clearly not the norm to have these levels rise like mine seem to have but there is precedence it seems. Most of the quotes were from articles referencing studies I just didn’t dig all the way to the studies today. Will prob continue to dig as time allows just or of curiosity ha.

Yeah, I’ve always been a bit concerned about thyroid levels. My tsh is always dead middle range but last year my free t4 came back at the lowest possible end of the range. They didn’t test it this time tho so I have no comparison. If I have to go back I may ask them to do more (or I’ll talk to my coach and make sure more thyroid hormones are included with that bloodwork).
 
booneman77

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I don't have any first hand experience with the keto approach beyond trying it once and giving up after a couple of days. I was just wondering whether your elevated liver enzymes are a result of increased ketone production, or perhaps relflect some hepatic dysfunction, which would likely impair ketone production.
Haha well your guess is as good as mine at this point. I’m certainly no keto expert and frankly have not had great luck with it the last couple years.
 
booneman77

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Maybe Wimsicle can shed some thoughts? He’s my keto prof ha
 
MrKleen73

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Very interesting, I was also reading up on it and saw that quite often the LDL-C will increase by 50-100%, but the LDL-P levels were the ones that really made the difference health-wise. The more densely the LDL-C are filled with LDL-P the more likely to create plaque but the less dense LDL-P is not likely to stick and actually improves health. I don't think I am explaining what I read very well.

Rather than try to put it into my own words, check this out.

https://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2017/11/07/high-cholesterol-on-a-keto-diet-should-you-be-concerned
 
booneman77

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Very interesting, I was also reading up on it and saw that quite often the LDL-C will increase by 50-100%, but the LDL-P levels were the ones that really made the difference health-wise. The more densely the LDL-C are filled with LDL-P the more likely to create plaque but the less dense LDL-P is not likely to stick and actually improves health. I don't think I am explaining what I read very well.

Rather than try to put it into my own words, check this out.

https://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2017/11/07/high-cholesterol-on-a-keto-diet-should-you-be-concerned
I know exactly what you're saying... That site was actually one of the quotes from above as well. I really like the way they presented teh info in a very "layman" manner.

And yes, the particle SIZE seems to be far more determinant of danger vs purely the numeric value of LDLc. That said, without the particle size value, I ahve no way of knowing. I will ask this if we do follow-up work (if they ever call back... they still have not - gonna have a nasty call coming their way this afternoon).

Workouts have been par for the course thus far this week. Same structure as last week and lifts are basically the same or very slightly up/down in terms of strength/stamina. 30min stepmill sessions such a fat one tho ha.

That said, i can really see some difference in my upper abs but what it bad/annoying is that while I'm seeing improvement there, my lower ab area seems to have not budged a single mm, nd now almost looks to be protruding like a little fat-belt ha. I've never had such inconsistency top to bottom like this before (always a little slower on the lower, but never to the degree it looks this week!)... all in all though, good progress (finally).

Also, coach is in the hospital (again) and apparently is about to have some serious downtime/surgery(s)/etc so it seems that things will be a bit slow on his end. I'm not all that concerned as I planned to manage things a bit more myself (to ensure progress) anyways so as long as workouts get psoted, I can manage the diet aspects... What's funny is after all the "trial and error", I'm more or less back on a diet 90% similar to what I had been eating myself prior to starting this whole program in Nov.... Calories are basically the same (17-1800), weekly Saturday refeeds, with the only major difference being slightly higher fat and carbs, replacing some protein)... who would've thought that maybe I knew how to do this all along haha
 
Oconns28

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I know exactly what you're saying... That site was actually one of the quotes from above as well. I really like the way they presented teh info in a very "layman" manner.

And yes, the particle SIZE seems to be far more determinant of danger vs purely the numeric value of LDLc. That said, without the particle size value, I ahve no way of knowing. I will ask this if we do follow-up work (if they ever call back... they still have not - gonna have a nasty call coming their way this afternoon).

Workouts have been par for the course thus far this week. Same structure as last week and lifts are basically the same or very slightly up/down in terms of strength/stamina. 30min stepmill sessions such a fat one tho ha.

That said, i can really see some difference in my upper abs but what it bad/annoying is that while I'm seeing improvement there, my lower ab area seems to have not budged a single mm, nd now almost looks to be protruding like a little fat-belt ha. I've never had such inconsistency top to bottom like this before (always a little slower on the lower, but never to the degree it looks this week!)... all in all though, good progress (finally).

Also, coach is in the hospital (again) and apparently is about to have some serious downtime/surgery(s)/etc so it seems that things will be a bit slow on his end. I'm not all that concerned as I planned to manage things a bit more myself (to ensure progress) anyways so as long as workouts get psoted, I can manage the diet aspects... What's funny is after all the "trial and error", I'm more or less back on a diet 90% similar to what I had been eating myself prior to starting this whole program in Nov.... Calories are basically the same (17-1800), weekly Saturday refeeds, with the only major difference being slightly higher fat and carbs, replacing some protein)... who would've thought that maybe I knew how to do this all along haha
Man 30 minutes on the stepper! What level do you do?

Ohhh I have that same fat belt! Lol.
 
booneman77

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Man 30 minutes on the stepper! What level do you do?

Ohhh I have that same fat belt! Lol.
I've been dong level 6... nothing crazy but a nice solid pace. Sweaty as a mofo after that ha
 
Oconns28

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I've been dong level 6... nothing crazy but a nice solid pace. Sweaty as a mofo after that ha
Ya it gets the sweat pouring! I was doing just 3-5 min with a 50lb weight vest. It doesn’t seem like much but it doesn’t take long to burn haha
 
booneman77

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Ya it gets the sweat pouring! I was doing just 3-5 min with a 50lb weight vest. It doesn’t seem like much but it doesn’t take long to burn haha
just the vest alone would be like wearing an extra jacket ha
 
Driven2lift

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Lower abs are *******s.

It’s never been hard to get my upper 2-4 showing but damn if there isn’t come invisible wall right there before getting 6 visible.
 
MrKleen73

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Most peoples lower abs are not really even separated by the connective tissue bands that give them shape. So seeing the lower abs may never happen for some because the cross section of connective tissue is more lying on top of the lower abdomen instead of inset into the lower abdomen. Even when I was shredded to the gills my lower abs weren't popping like the rest of them and the skin as paper thin.

Copuld be worse though like that old Wrestler Chris Benoit, he was lean as hell but his abs just looked like a sheet. Hardly any lines in between them.



However in this place I almost bet that you have had less fiber and just havent started moving out some of the meat bowels... Could obviously be way off here but my lower gut distends at first when I go to keto unless I am having a lot of nuts for the fiber.
 
Driven2lift

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I was a big psyllium husk fan on keto

One of the better ways to limit carbs while getting in fibre, on top of all the veggies you can fit of course
 
booneman77

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Nah def not a lack of fiber ha. All my veggies are fibrous and nuts have been a big part of my fats. I know the difference between bloat and fat and it’s the good ol jiggly stuff ha
 
booneman77

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More delays on the beta testing... apparently they're having issues with the legal docs. No new timeline now which is annoying AF.

Follow-up bloodwork next friday just to make sure I dont have some other hepatic issues (or hepatitis). Not really worried, just needs to be checked.
 
booneman77

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186.3lb today so a slight loss. Body comp seems to have improved slightly tho so I’m ok with weight not dropping much.

One thing I noted is that all this extra cardio (3x30 stepmill + 2x30 elliptical + 2x45 walking) has literally had no extra impact on my weight loss. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort to me right now ha
 
Driven2lift

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You weighing daily?

Added cardio works a bit slower than when food is removed for dropping weight on a scale but it should catch up with you, hopefully soon.
 
booneman77

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You weighing daily?

Added cardio works a bit slower than when food is removed for dropping weight on a scale but it should catch up with you, hopefully soon.
No, just once a week on saturdays.

Hmm I didn’t think that... why though? The calories in/out should end up the same over the same time span?
 
Driven2lift

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When the activity is new inflammation and the additional repair needed tends to hold more water, until you adapt

Shouldn’t throw things off much just something I always note when first piling on cardio, not the muscle fibres I’m accustomed to repairing , couple days of extra pain in my calves and such as well until I get used to it
 
booneman77

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Weight yesterday was down another 1lb (same rate as the week prior basically) to 185.2lb. Killed my legs yesterday and am really feeling it today.

Coach has been basically mia the last few days but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt cuz I know he’s all medicated from his surgery last week. One more week to hear about this friggin test supp and then I’m telling him I’m out. It’s been a month of delays now and I’m tired of holding off using any of my own stuff just waiting for something that seems to be never ending bs.
 
booneman77

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booneman77

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Legs were still quite sore last night from Saturday's workout... luckily it was shoulders/bi's for the lift but the cardio on the stepmill was brutal ha.

Leg day again today and then some supplementary leg work again tomorrow (I added this in as I didn't want to have 2 days in a row off so I will be tinkering with the exercises on Weds).

My follow-up labs came back (I haven't seen them yet though because this doc's office is a mess apparently) all the hepatits stuff came back negative so all is well there. They did say that they may want to do an ultrasound but I'm still waiting to hear from the doc as the nurse I talked to didn't know why they would want a 3rd round of the same bloodwork in 2 weeks as well as the ultrasound... just weird and starting to seem like a money grab.

I will FINALLY be getting full hormonal bloodwork via my coach on Friday (hoping to have results next week) and then starting the supplements as soon as they get labels (FDA requirement)... this has been a gigantic PITA so I'm hopeful it begins to go smoother now that coach is back involved after his heart issues/surgery.
 
booneman77

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So I've really been digging and reading a lot, and had a good talk with my coach yesterday as well about diet things... a couple things that came out of both elements:

- we are going to try a FODMAP style diet starting next week to see if we can't work out some of the random bloating and general digestion issues I seem to have. It's interesting because I have an absolute iron gut when it comes to things that "bother" me (never get cramps or pains or sickness from anything - i.e 5 quest bars in a sitting or excessive spicy foods). I do however look and feel very bloated after totally normal meals, but not consistently. For example, this week I have had the exact same meal, within 30min of the same time mon and tuesday. Monday I felt totally fine, woke up looking reasonably tight and no gi distress. Today, went to bed bloated, and feeling almost excessively full, woke up looking like I swallowed a basketball, and can just feel my gut churning around a bit... very odd.

- On the liver side, still waiting (forever) to hear back on the follow up to the follow up (ha) I've really been enjoying seeing all the linkage between the liver function and literally everything... And I'm now curious if some of the digestion and potential glucose tolerance issues that make it harder for me to cut aren't linked to my elevated values... As well, from my research it seems that the very high protein (which will inevitably be circulating in the bloodstream) I tend to eat could be causing undue stress on the liver. Once I hear back from the doc and try out some of the FODMAP stuff, I may significantly lower my protein and try that out for awhile... I'm really only hesitant because I enjoy my protein (chickens and powders alike) so much haha.
 
MrKleen73

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So I've really been digging and reading a lot, and had a good talk with my coach yesterday as well about diet things... a couple things that came out of both elements:

- we are going to try a FODMAP style diet starting next week to see if we can't work out some of the random bloating and general digestion issues I seem to have. It's interesting because I have an absolute iron gut when it comes to things that "bother" me (never get cramps or pains or sickness from anything - i.e 5 quest bars in a sitting or excessive spicy foods). I do however look and feel very bloated after totally normal meals, but not consistently. For example, this week I have had the exact same meal, within 30min of the same time mon and tuesday. Monday I felt totally fine, woke up looking reasonably tight and no gi distress. Today, went to bed bloated, and feeling almost excessively full, woke up looking like I swallowed a basketball, and can just feel my gut churning around a bit... very odd.

- On the liver side, still waiting (forever) to hear back on the follow up to the follow up (ha) I've really been enjoying seeing all the linkage between the liver function and literally everything... And I'm now curious if some of the digestion and potential glucose tolerance issues that make it harder for me to cut aren't linked to my elevated values... As well, from my research it seems that the very high protein (which will inevitably be circulating in the bloodstream) I tend to eat could be causing undue stress on the liver. Once I hear back from the doc and try out some of the FODMAP stuff, I may significantly lower my protein and try that out for awhile... I'm really only hesitant because I enjoy my protein (chickens and powders alike) so much haha.
The bolded is the only reason I eat more than 100-150 a day. I enjoy my protein quite a bit.

Very curious on the FODMAP and how that goes. I keep trying to get the wife on an elimination diet but it is hard enough to get her to swallow foods she really enjoys much less a very limited menu.
 
booneman77

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The bolded is the only reason I eat more than 100-150 a day. I enjoy my protein quite a bit.

Very curious on the FODMAP and how that goes. I keep trying to get the wife on an elimination diet but it is hard enough to get her to swallow foods she really enjoys much less a very limited menu.
yep, im dreading the thought of not getting to sit down to a giant plate of grilled chicken (like 30oz haha) and washing it down with one of the 20482745082475 flavors of protein I have (or following with ice cream)... i dont even remember what its like to NOT eat a diet that's not mostly protein ha

the advantage for me is a) I could eat literally the exact same 3 foods every day forever without issue (never get "bored") and b) i'm not the slightest bit picky (literally can't think of a single food I wouldn't eat). Makes changing diets very simple
 
MrKleen73

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yep, im dreading the thought of not getting to sit down to a giant plate of grilled chicken (like 30oz haha) and washing it down with one of the 20482745082475 flavors of protein I have (or following with ice cream)... i dont even remember what its like to NOT eat a diet that's not mostly protein ha

the advantage for me is a) I could eat literally the exact same 3 foods every day forever without issue (never get "bored") and b) i'm not the slightest bit picky (literally can't think of a single food I wouldn't eat). Makes changing diets very simple
When i get the mindset I am the sameway, just rinse and repeat makes life much easier. When I adjust things now I almost never go through a serious transition like most others seem too. Probably the fasting and always having fats higher than 80g a day when possible.
 
Driven2lift

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Best of luck on the diet sir, have helped design some eating routines around it in the past for family and it’s not at all easy to stick to (IMO)

When was your last Ultrasound? Mine was rechecked every 6 months until liver values normalized. They will take a peak at your prostrate size as well, they call it an “abdominal ultrasound?”

At least you are back on the progress path!
 
booneman77

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Best of luck on the diet sir, have helped design some eating routines around it in the past for family and it’s not at all easy to stick to (IMO)

When was your last Ultrasound? Mine was rechecked every 6 months until liver values normalized. They will take a peak at your prostrate size as well, they call it an “abdominal ultrasound?”

At least you are back on the progress path!
i havent had an ultrasound since I was like 5-6yrs old (when my liver was too big for my body and they thought it was gonna kill me ha)... they were past their hours so i didnt get to talk to the radiology ppl yet but should know more tomorrow hopefully.
 
MrKleen73

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Hopefully nothing ominous going on there, and only good news.
 
booneman77

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Weight Sat was 184.3lb so down another 1lb... slow but steady.

So today was to be the start of the new diet plan (FODMAP)... got it this morning (2 days later than he said he would, as usual). Well, I look it over and the first GIANT thing I notice is the calories... ~2300... which is about 500 HIGHER than I had finally been responding to. I almost shiit a brick. so of course, now i read deeper and wouldn't you know it, theres both apples and apple juice... which are both basically #1 items NOT to include on a fodmap diet... on top of that, theres 10oz of beef in there (to be fattier) which I explicitly talked to him about eliminating most of my saturated fats weeks ago when my cholesterol came back high...

So basically, the entire "plan" was garbage and I wrote him a big message basically calling all of this out and asking WTF happened here... he answered briefly and said he would tweak it this afternoon (still has not) and then address my concerns in a message later when he had more time... that was at 11a and 12hrs later still nothing.

At this point, I've basically come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to start doing my diet only loosely based on what he says becuase he flat out ignored or forgot too many significant items yet again. He also was confused at my calorie comment (why back up so high) and said he doesnt like prepping a guy at that level and that its closer to his girls preps... Well, who friggin cares what you "like"??? really peeved right now with his disregard for my progress as it seems like he's far more concerned with "sticking to the plan" and "what he likes" than what is ACTUALLY working.

The plan will be to do things as I see fit, and simply jsut not tell him when I'm changing things. If he wants to know, he can look at my logged meals and foods, but otherwise I'm doing what works, not what he "likes" until this beta test (assuming it comes this week) is over. The day the testing is over I'm 100% done with this crap.
 
jtmass

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Weight Sat was 184.3lb so down another 1lb... slow but steady.

So today was to be the start of the new diet plan (FODMAP)... got it this morning (2 days later than he said he would, as usual). Well, I look it over and the first GIANT thing I notice is the calories... ~2300... which is about 500 HIGHER than I had finally been responding to. I almost shiit a brick. so of course, now i read deeper and wouldn't you know it, theres both apples and apple juice... which are both basically #1 items NOT to include on a fodmap diet... on top of that, theres 10oz of beef in there (to be fattier) which I explicitly talked to him about eliminating most of my saturated fats weeks ago when my cholesterol came back high...

So basically, the entire "plan" was garbage and I wrote him a big message basically calling all of this out and asking WTF happened here... he answered briefly and said he would tweak it this afternoon (still has not) and then address my concerns in a message later when he had more time... that was at 11a and 12hrs later still nothing.

At this point, I've basically come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to start doing my diet only loosely based on what he says becuase he flat out ignored or forgot too many significant items yet again. He also was confused at my calorie comment (why back up so high) and said he doesnt like prepping a guy at that level and that its closer to his girls preps... Well, who friggin cares what you "like"??? really peeved right now with his disregard for my progress as it seems like he's far more concerned with "sticking to the plan" and "what he likes" than what is ACTUALLY working.

The plan will be to do things as I see fit, and simply jsut not tell him when I'm changing things. If he wants to know, he can look at my logged meals and foods, but otherwise I'm doing what works, not what he "likes" until this beta test (assuming it comes this week) is over. The day the testing is over I'm 100% done with this crap.
Isn't it high time you fire him and get your diet and training moving in a proper way? I mean, you're obviously wasting a lot of time talking to him, waiting for his reply, when you can do all this by yourself with the experience you got.

Honestly, there has been little progress you have made with this entire coach thing. It's time to take things under control and blast it. Good Luck
 
booneman77

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Isn't it high time you fire him and get your diet and training moving in a proper way? I mean, you're obviously wasting a lot of time talking to him, waiting for his reply, when you can do all this by yourself with the experience you got.

Honestly, there has been little progress you have made with this entire coach thing. It's time to take things under control and blast it. Good Luck
yeah thats more or less what I'm doing. I want to stick with him through the beta test supplement becuase I already had him pay for the bloodwork and I'm not gonna just screw him totally out of that as its not cheap and neither would the supps, but at the same time I cannot wait around forever either. As far as changes, I'm taking the majority of the reigns myself when necessary and keeping him informed when I make tweaks or changes so we are at least clear as the testing goes. It is nice to ahve someone to bounce ideas off of occasionally and the training aspect has been good since the intial bit so I'm comfortable with that aspect. Having an objective set of eyes never hurts either, I just need him to be a bit more critical and less "it'll get there" ha.

I'm gonna try to put more pics and such in here as time allows (seems like my project isn't going to be nearly as hectic as I thought which is nice) so that you guys can help more too. I'm really using this year as a "fail fast" kind of tinkering as I've tried more, different, and dramatic things than I have in quite a long time. Some great, some awful, but all learning.
 
nicksox15

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I stopped checking in three weeks ago, no messages asking what’s up or anything. Just the workouts continuing to be updated with zero input from me haha. I’m going to see how long it takes him to say something but yea, I’m done
 
MrKleen73

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If you aren't going to follow his directions on diet then waiting to see what is up through the beta testing is going to be a bit odd. YOu will be giving him results from the effects of the diet changes you make, and not what it has to offer. I would probably tell him that he simply hasn't been able to hold up his end of the deal and time is short. You need to take the diet into your own hands since he won't listen but you don't mind testing his product.

If he doesn't like that then back out and do your own thing. He is the one who has not once met a deadline or kept a promise. You walking out wouldn't be you leaving him stuck out, it would simply be you refusing to be strung along any further.
 
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yeah thats more or less what I'm doing. I want to stick with him through the beta test supplement becuase I already had him pay for the bloodwork and I'm not gonna just screw him totally out of that as its not cheap and neither would the supps, but at the same time I cannot wait around forever either. As far as changes, I'm taking the majority of the reigns myself when necessary and keeping him informed when I make tweaks or changes so we are at least clear as the testing goes. It is nice to ahve someone to bounce ideas off of occasionally and the training aspect has been good since the intial bit so I'm comfortable with that aspect. Having an objective set of eyes never hurts either, I just need him to be a bit more critical and less "it'll get there" ha.

I'm gonna try to put more pics and such in here as time allows (seems like my project isn't going to be nearly as hectic as I thought which is nice) so that you guys can help more too. I'm really using this year as a "fail fast" kind of tinkering as I've tried more, different, and dramatic things than I have in quite a long time. Some great, some awful, but all learning.
I think there are at least a few people here (including me) who would give you honest feedback on your progress and not sugar coat it. Post your progress pics here. A few people will care to give you good advice. lol
 
booneman77

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I stopped checking in three weeks ago, no messages asking what’s up or anything. Just the workouts continuing to be updated with zero input from me haha. I’m going to see how long it takes him to say something but yea, I’m done
wow yeah thats pretty sad. this whole thing has just been a major letdown on almost every aspect of "coaching"
 
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If you aren't going to follow his directions on diet then waiting to see what is up through the beta testing is going to be a bit odd. YOu will be giving him results from the effects of the diet changes you make, and not what it has to offer. I would probably tell him that he simply hasn't been able to hold up his end of the deal and time is short. You need to take the diet into your own hands since he won't listen but you don't mind testing his product.

If he doesn't like that then back out and do your own thing. He is the one who has not once met a deadline or kept a promise. You walking out wouldn't be you leaving him stuck out, it would simply be you refusing to be strung along any further.
Right, this is exactly what I planned (maybe didn't make that clear above)... will continue to baseline from the plans he proposes, but where I feel changes need to be made they will be and communicated accurately. Even if he were to do it himself we would not be keeping diet 100% constant anyways so the changes from my tweaks vs his wont actually make a difference in terms of the validity of the results. THey would be skewed by dietary changes regardless. Realistically, outside of a controlled study, every "beta test" is with people doing their own diets and usually even workouts so the results from those are always subject to personalization. I think the major aspects he's concerned about reporting would be dramatic things like muscle gain in a deficit and anything positive hormonal (test boosting, etc).
 
MrKleen73

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Right, this is exactly what I planned (maybe didn't make that clear above)... will continue to baseline from the plans he proposes, but where I feel changes need to be made they will be and communicated accurately. Even if he were to do it himself we would not be keeping diet 100% constant anyways so the changes from my tweaks vs his wont actually make a difference in terms of the validity of the results. THey would be skewed by dietary changes regardless. Realistically, outside of a controlled study, every "beta test" is with people doing their own diets and usually even workouts so the results from those are always subject to personalization. I think the major aspects he's concerned about reporting would be dramatic things like muscle gain in a deficit and anything positive hormonal (test boosting, etc).
Got ya, okay, I didn't realize you were going to communicate to him that you were changing his diet up to fit your needs. Was thinking if all the sudden you start making progress he might attribute that to the product and not the changes you made.
 
booneman77

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Got ya, okay, I didn't realize you were going to communicate to him that you were changing his diet up to fit your needs. Was thinking if all the sudden you start making progress he might attribute that to the product and not the changes you made.
well he was already attributing the progress to a calorie level 500 above what I am actually at (I finally sorted this out this morning with him as apparently he was looking at the wrong diet plan - someone else's - when he did mine this week... derp) so that's not much of a stretch to think ha
 
christ83189

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well he was already attributing the progress to a calorie level 500 above what I am actually at (I finally sorted this out this morning with him as apparently he was looking at the wrong diet plan - someone else's - when he did mine this week... derp) so that's not much of a stretch to think ha
Sounds like your coach is attempting to do something he dont know sh1t about. Seems to me if you're gonna try to make a living off of getting people results you oughtta be able to adjust your plan and figure out what gets results and do that. He just sounds like a dummy
 
booneman77

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Sounds like your coach is attempting to do something he dont know sh1t about. Seems to me if you're gonna try to make a living off of getting people results you oughtta be able to adjust your plan and figure out what gets results and do that. He just sounds like a dummy
haha yeah this one was more just a "human error" type of thing, but there have certainly been some "stubborn" issues throughout
 
MrKleen73

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haha yeah this one was more just a "human error" type of thing, but there have certainly been some "stubborn" issues throughout
The biggest one is his refusal to allow you to diet at an effective and comfortable caloric level for yourself. I get it I just gained 6lbs on less than 2400 a day, and most would consider that a massive deficit for a 214lb guy with my muscle mass. Some people just have very efficient bodies and simply don't need that many calories...
 
booneman77

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The biggest one is his refusal to allow you to diet at an effective and comfortable caloric level for yourself. I get it I just gained 6lbs on less than 2400 a day, and most would consider that a massive deficit for a 214lb guy with my muscle mass. Some people just have very efficient bodies and simply don't need that many calories...
The curse of efficiency ha
 
MrKleen73

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The curse of efficiency ha
No doubt... funny thing is I can drop another 300-400 cals a day and lean out quite quickly. My caloric jumps don't have to be as big to make a difference. So I am lucky in that aspect, but many would balk at the idea of dropping my calories to 2000...
 
booneman77

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No doubt... funny thing is I can drop another 300-400 cals a day and lean out quite quickly. My caloric jumps don't have to be as big to make a difference. So I am lucky in that aspect, but many would balk at the idea of dropping my calories to 2000...
Yep I'm the same... the other thing too is that I seem to get the same results from changes for much longer periods of time than most. Bulking or cutting, I can steadily gain or lose sometimes for months without making much if any changes.

After the whole diet debacle this week, coach came back with an updated plan that I'm using now (basically it was what I had tweaked his to on monday before he got back to me anyways)... First time under 200g protein/day in i dont even know how long ha. carbs from potatos, some olive oil and almonds, and thats about it... basic as they come. calories are down another 100 this week now too (1675ish) I'm literally the poster boy for bodybuilding foods right now haha.
 

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