I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

[Pec.Major]

No extra gains at 750mg, a recent independent study says (see Suppversity)

so another study saying something like this. Fortunately, soy lecithin has some other beneficial effects and it explains why I had no success with "pure" PA supps

link? Can´t find anything.

 

[mbonheur]

link? Can´t find anything.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BPxuBEYB1P1/

 

[muscleupcrohn]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BPxuBEYB1P1/

I'm on my phone now, so I may not be reading everything correctly, but the human study showing no benefits used 375mg PA, and the one combined with Whey was a rat study, no? So all the human studies using 750mg PA, there are multiple, still showed benefits I think. I like PA regardless.

 

[mbonheur]

I'm on my phone now, so I may not be reading everything correctly, but the human study showing no benefits used 375mg PA, and the one combined with Whey was a rat study, no? So all the human studies using 750mg PA, there are multiple, still showed benefits I think. I like PA regardless.

The current one, which was posted today, talks about 750mg. You are talking about an "older" one by Andre, Thomas et al.?

As I read it, there is actually only one out of the several studies that confirmed the effects of PA (by Escalante et al), but I am also on my phone

 

[muscleupcrohn]

The current one, which was posted today, talks about 750mg. You are talking about an "older" one by Andre, Thomas et al.?

As I read it, there is actually only one out of the several studies that confirmed the effects of PA (by Escalante et al), but I am also on my phone

Haha, the troubles of using a phone to do research. I'll check when I get home to my computer. I've learned not to always trust write-up/summary type sites (like examine and whatnot) without double checking everything. Sometimes they make mistakes in dosing, forget that something may have been x mg twice a day instead of once, etc. Actually, always double check, haha.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

The current one, which was posted today, talks about 750mg. You are talking about an "older" one by Andre, Thomas et al.?

As I read it, there is actually only one out of the several studies that confirmed the effects of PA (by Escalante et al), but I am also on my phone

Here's three that seem to show it works:

PA significantly activates mTOR and significantly improved responses in skeletal muscle hypertrophy, lean body mass, and maximal strength to resistance exercise.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066292/

Supplementation with soy-derived PA can improve responses in skeletal muscle hypertrophy, lean body mass, and maximal strength.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4044072/

Results of this study suggest that a combination of a daily 750 mg PA ingestion, combined with a 4-day per week resistance training program for 8-weeks appears to have a likely benefit on strength improvement, and a very likely benefit on lean tissue accruement in young, resistance trained individuals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506449/

I see the abstract for the new 750mg study that didn't seem to show real benefits:
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0564#.WIukLlMrKpo

As for the references from the links to suppversity, the study showing no benefits with 250-375mg PA isn't surprising:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27803633

Regarding the rat PA/whey study, from the conclusion:

While these findings are novel, this study is not without its limitations including: a) the limited post-feeding time point interrogation, b) the lack of intramuscular PA data, and c) the absence of other PA and/or WPC dosages as well as the lack of an exercise stimulus.

Also, it seems that the study involved co-ingestion of PA and whey; I'd be more interested in seeing the effects (preferably on actual people) in regards to something like LBM, especially if you take them at different times, such as PA pre-workout and whey post-workout if you have to take both.

 

[Danes]

The current one, which was posted today, talks about 750mg. You are talking about an "older" one by Andre, Thomas et al.?

As I read it, there is actually only one out of the several studies that confirmed the effects of PA (by Escalante et al), but I am also on my phone

I personaly never felt much from 750mg.
3g was another story

 

[kbayne]

Almost every study showing PA has any merit, was either funded or sponsored by Chemi Nutra, or any other company in affiliation with PA.

This new study, has no affiliation with any PA companies.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0564#.WIun9xiZORs

 

[TheIronAsylum]

lol so pa doesnt work now

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Almost every study showing PA has any merit, was either funded or sponsored by Chemi Nutra, or any other company in affiliation with PA.

This new study, has no affiliation with any PA companies.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0564#.WIun9xiZORs

Good point. All three of the studies I mentioned earlier include:

RJ and MP are independent paid consultants to Chemi Nutra and have been named as inventors on pending patents by Chemi Nutra. MP and RJ were not involved in data collection or analysis. All other authors declare that they have no competing interests.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066292/

Supported by Chemi Nutra, White Bear Lake, MN, USA.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4044072/

MP and RJ have been named as inventors on pending patents by Chemi Nutra. MP and RJ are independent paid consultants to Chemi Nutra. All other authors declare that they have no competing interests.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506449/

I'm going to check the differences in training protocols during the studies, baseline characteristics of the subjects, and timing of the dose(s). Maybe that could shed some light on the difference in results besides just saying it's Chemi Nutra.

 

[Danes]

lol so pa doesnt work now

750mg did nothing for me
1500mg ok
3g or more was good

If I experienced Placebo, then its one of few products that gave me.placebo effect.
Tried plenty of products and even dosed high many compounds, there are just few compounds/products that worked for me.

 

[kbayne]

Good point. All three of the studies I mentioned earlier include:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066292/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4044072/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506449/

I'm going to check the differences in training protocols during the studies, baseline characteristics of the subjects, and timing of the dose(s). Maybe that could shed some light on the difference in results besides just saying it's Chemi Nutra.

I've read the full text myself. Very well put together IMO. I would have liked to see maybe a 4 or 5 day training protocol.

 

[ucheoma]

lol so pa doesnt work now

Another one bites the dust it seems!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I've read the full text myself. Very well put together IMO. I would have liked to see maybe a 4 or 5 day training protocol.

I'm not saying that it's not well put together, but maybe I can see if there is some variable that was present in the previous studies that showed benefits that wasn't present or was different in this study that didn't, besides Chemi Nutra, haha.

Edit: I just read through all the other studies, and got a copy of the full text of this new one. I'm going to write down all the variables (training protocol, timing of dose(s), etc) and see if there's any major differences.

 

[Nac]

This also throws a big question mark over Wilsons studies, as if there wasnt one already.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I've read the full text myself. Very well put together IMO. I would have liked to see maybe a 4 or 5 day training protocol.

Here's a table I made comparing the studies:

Study 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506449/
Study 2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066292/
Study 3: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4044072/
NEW: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0564#.WIun9xiZORs

Looking at this, the dose of PA was the same in all the studies (750mg/day), and the timing was pretty consistent with other studies when they specified the timing, so that's not an issue. The inclusion of hydrolyzed collagen protein taken post-workout is also similar to other studies, so that's not really an issue either, and does well to replicate the other studies. The 3 sessions per week is also similar to the other studies, which used 3-4 sessions per week, but it seems that the total volume per week is a good bit less than the other two studies that actually specified this information (I couldn't find the information for Study 3).

Where Study 1 involved doing chest exercises 2x per week, with a total volume of 14 sets per week, Study 2 also hit chest 2x per week. I couldn't find the number of sets, but it involved 3 exercises on one day, and 2 on the other. Compare that with the NEW study that only hit chest 1x per week, with a total of 8 sets per week, from a total of two exercises.

For legs, it seems that Study 1, 2, and NEW all hit legs 2x per week, but Study 1 had 26 total sets per week compared to only 16 in NEW, and Study 2 had 4 exercises one day and 2 the other, while NEW only had 2 exercises on both days.

It seems that this new study has less volume (and less frequency at times) than the other studies. Maybe that's a contributing factor? I'll go through and check the gains made in each study to see if the studies with more volume noted greater increases than the new study with lower volume.

 

[Nac]

Well obviously there was enough volume in the latest study for some gains to be made in both groups. Ive never seen it suggested that there is a PA volume threshold.

 

[pbandy1]

Well obviously there was enough volume in the latest study for some gains to be made in both groups. Ive never seen it suggested that there is a PA volume threshold.

my thoughts as well.

 

[Nac]

If we are being thorough, though, Id be curious to know their PA source.

 

[Danes]

If we are being thorough, though, Id be curious to know their PA source.

Good point

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well obviously there was enough volume in the latest study for some gains to be made in both groups. Ive never seen it suggested that there is a PA volume threshold.

I'm not saying that there is or isn't. I'm more just thinking out loud here and sharing my thoughts/data as I go.

Here's some info on the baseline lifts and progress made during the 8 weeks (I rounded the baseline numbers to the nearest 5 for some reason):

Looking at this, we see that similar gains in bench press were made in the placebo groups among Studes 1, 2, and NEW, with 2 & NEW actually making a bit more progress than 1. As for squats, only 1 and NEW seemed to test this, and it looks like Study 1 made almost 40% more (just under 8lbs) progress on squats, and that's in addition to subjects in Study 1 starting with a squat of ~45lbs more than subjects in NEW.

Looking at the full text of Study 1:

The Δ change in 1-RM squat show a likely benefit from PA on increasing lower body strength.

Magnitude based inferences were unclear regarding any benefit in upper body strength improvements in these subjects consuming the PA.

From Study 2:

There was a significant group x time effect (p < 0.05) for leg press 1RM, in which the PA group increased to a greater extent (pre 228.7 ± 49.5 kg, post 280.6 ± 36.2 kg, ES = 1.2) than the PLA group (pre 226.3 ± 47.2 kg, post 258.7 ± 36.1 kg, ES = 0.78). There was a significant time effect (p < 0.01) for bench press 1RM, in which both the PA (pre 98.0 ± 13.5 kg, post 105.0 ± 12.4 kg, ES = 0.5) and PLA (pre 91.4 ± 19.1 kg, post 96.1 ± 17.0 kg, ES = 0.25) increased; however, no differences were present between groups (p = 0.11).

Based on this, it seems that it's more "likely" for PA increase leg 1-RM (squat or leg press) than bench press, and subjects in Study 1 made a bit more progress in squats than subjects in NEW, although I'm not saying that really means anything, just something I noticed and found interesting.

I know that the new study measured muscle thickness, but I really would have liked to see LBM measured.

If we are being thorough, though, Id be curious to know their PA source.

I would like to know this too. They didn't mention the source of the PA used, but they did mention the source of hydrolyzed collagen protein, which I found a bit strange. I don't think it's the same exact PA source used in the other studies, as the other studies mentioned that the 750mg PA came from 5 caps, while the 750mg PA in this new study came from 6 caps, making me think that it's a different source. Why didn't they mention the PA source? I couldn't find it at all in the full text, even using the search function.

 

[Bartmac36]

For what its worth, in my two instances running PA i've dosed at least 1g daily and never noticed any real strength or size benefits.

Tbh ive never really noticed benefits from any natty supplements. Epicat, laxo, PA, etc

 

[Nac]

muscleupcrohn maybe try searching the text for "sigma aldrich"?

 

[Nac]

Good point

Wasnt it Wilsons team that determined egg-derived PA to be crapola?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

muscleupcrohn maybe try searching the text for "sigma aldrich"?

No mention. Also nothing relevant for "source", "obtain(ed)", or even "soy", which we really should know if it's soy-derived PA.

The acknowledgements only mentions this:

The authors wish to thank all participants who gave of their time and effort to participate
in this study. We are also grateful to Noah Siegel at Siege Athletics LLC and Mike
Nunziato at Total Nunziato Training LLC for providing the resources and equipment
necessary to make this study possible. This research was supported by the Hofstra
University School of Education Faculty Research Grant.

and I highly doubt that either of those LLCs are manufacturing PA, haha.

There are also locations given for several companies, including the collagen protein, but I can't find anything for the PA at all. It's actually quite strange now that you mention it.

Edit: The corresponding author's email address is included in the full text. Maybe we should email him asking about the source of the PA?

 

[Nac]

I can understand them not wanting to be seen endorsing/rubbishing product-X, but in the interests of transparency I would assume it a straight forward thing to at least describe the PA (standardisation, nature source, etc). Like, what youd find on the back of a label perhaps. Even better if its a 3rd party provider like SA.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I can understand them not wanting to be seen to be endorsing product-X, but in the interests of transparency I would assume it a straight forward thing to at least describe the PA (standardisation, nature source, etc). Like, what youd find on the back of a label perhaps. Even better if its a 3rd party provider like SA.

True, it's just strange to go into such detail about the collagen protein (the company, amino acid profile, etc), and then just blank completely on the PA info. I think I'll email the author (from my university email so it seems a bit more legitimate and he's more likely to answer). I'll keep you guys updated.

Edit: email sent. Now we wait.

 

[pbandy1]

True, it's just strange to go into such detail about the collagen protein (the company, amino acid profile, etc), and then just blank completely on the PA info. I think I'll email the author (from my university email so it seems a bit more legitimate and he's more likely to answer). I'll keep you guys updated.

Edit: email sent. Now we wait.

Thanks for sending the email. I've sent a few emails to authors for various studies and every one of them had gotten back to me within a couple of weeks, so they are usually pretty good about that.

 

[Danes]

I can understand them not wanting to be seen endorsing/rubbishing product-X, but in the interests of transparency I would assume it a straight forward thing to at least describe the PA (standardisation, nature source, etc). Like, what youd find on the back of a label perhaps. Even better if its a 3rd party provider like SA.

Totaly agree

 

[Danes]

True, it's just strange to go into such detail about the collagen protein (the company, amino acid profile, etc), and then just blank completely on the PA info. I think I'll email the author (from my university email so it seems a bit more legitimate and he's more likely to answer). I'll keep you guys updated.

Edit: email sent. Now we wait.

Will be fun to hear about the PA source

 

[The_Old_Guy]

In case you guys missed it, check this every day: https://www.instagram.com/suppversity/ (either in a computer web browser or the App). He posts about 10 studies per day - only 1 every few days makes it to the main blog.

P.S. Wouldn't this PA thing be a kick in the nuts

 

[Danes]

In case you guys missed it, check this every day: https://www.instagram.com/suppversity/ (either in a computer web browser or the App). He posts about 10 studies per day - only 1 every few days makes it to the main blog.

P.S. Wouldn't this PA thing be a kick in the nuts

Sure.

But this is also funny:
I have tried different PA products(containing Mediator PA) and honestly Biotest Micro-PA is the only I liked best. Is it due to SEDDS ? Dont know.

I also said from the beginning high dose worked for me. (Musclefullness,weight gain without eating more, strength gain etc).

If that is placebo, then I really like it
Because I dont get that placebo effects from other stuff.

I tried 1g and 1.5g ArA. Honestly, I barely noticed anything. However 2.5g was a differenct story. Sick pumps , strength gain, joint issues ++.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Sure.

But this is also funny:
I have tried different PA products(containing Mediator PA) and honestly Biotest Micro-PA is the only I liked best. Is it due to SEDDS ? Dont know.

I also said from the beginning high dose worked for me. (Musclefullness,weight gain without eating more, strength gain etc).

I tried 1g and 1.5g ArA. Honestly, I barely noticed anything. However 2.5g was a differenct story. Sick pumps , strength gain, joint issues ++.

Biotest or your dosing protocols = It's cheaper to take drugs (and more effective) 2.5g ArA x 50 Workouts is $175!

 

[Danes]

Biotest or your dosing protocols = It's cheaper to take drugs (and more effective) 2.5g ArA x 50 Workouts is $175!

It would be damn lie if I said you are wrong sir

 

[The_Old_Guy]

It would be damn lie if I said you are wrong sir

Just having some fun, you da man

 

[Danes]

Just having some fun, you da man

It is fun but you are totaly right

 

[Nac]

P.S. Wouldn't this PA thing be a kick in the nuts

Not surprising but also kinda concerning, no mention of this on the biotest forum, cheminutra site/social media.

 

[mbonheur]

In case you guys missed it, check this every day: https://www.instagram.com/suppversity/ (either in a computer web browser or the App). He posts about 10 studies per day - only 1 every few days makes it to the main blog.

P.S. Wouldn't this PA thing be a kick in the nuts

Yeah, that is where I got it from in the first place. At least some interesting posts in my Instagram feed thanks to Suppversity

 

[Danes]

Not surprising but also kinda concerning, no mention of this on the biotest forum, cheminutra site/social media.

Email sent to Cheminutra
Sent this to them:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974867/

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0564#.WIun9xiZORs

 

[pbandy1]

Not surprising but also kinda concerning, no mention of this on the biotest forum, cheminutra site/social media.

T-Nation forum these days is pretty dead.

 

[Danes]

T-Nation forum these days is pretty dead.

Maybe I should post there too this new PA study

 

[pbandy1]

Maybe I should post there too this new PA study

the plus side is they used to delete/moderate a lot of posts, now it seems like that doesn't happen very often. Worth a try to see if you can get a response.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

True, it's just strange to go into such detail about the collagen protein (the company, amino acid profile, etc), and then just blank completely on the PA info. I think I'll email the author (from my university email so it seems a bit more legitimate and he's more likely to answer). I'll keep you guys updated.

Edit: email sent. Now we wait.

Quoting myself again, I got a response back from the author:

The supplement we used was a commercial product containing 750 mg of Mediator PA.

Now, since there were 6 caps for 750mg PA, maybe we can figure out which supplement was used.

-King doesn't use Mediator anymore.
-PhosphaMuscle, Epiq PA, PhosphaGrow SX-7, PA(7), and PhosphaBuild all have 5 caps per 750mg PA.
-Primeval Labs PA has 250mg "Phosphatidic Acid Mediator" per capsule. If that's 250mg Mediator (50% PA), and not 250mg of PA from Mediator, then you'd have 750mg PA per 6 caps, from Mediator, which matches the description. It also doesn't have any other ingredients like many PA products do that should probably have been mentioned in the study, and doesn't have the delivery system that Micro-PA has, which also likely would have been mentioned in the study.
-Micro-PA actually has 6 capsules per 750mg PA, but do they use Mediator?

Perhaps they didn't want to mention the specific product because the study found it didn't really work, and they didn't want to seem like they were against the product and didn't want any trouble/drama resulting from this.

 

[pbandy1]

Quoting myself again, I got a response back from the author:

Now, since there were 6 caps for 750mg PA, maybe we can figure out which supplement was used.

-King doesn't use Mediator anymore.
-PhosphaMuscle, Epiq PA, PhosphaGrow SX-7, PA(7), and PhosphaBuild all have 5 caps per 750mg PA.
-Primeval Labs PA has 250mg "Phosphatidic Acid Mediator" per capsule. If that's 250mg Mediator (50% PA), and not 250mg of PA from Mediator, then you'd have 750mg PA per 6 caps, from Mediator, which matches the description. It also doesn't have any other ingredients like many PA products do that should probably have been mentioned in the study, and doesn't have the delivery system that Micro-PA has, which also likely would have been mentioned in the study.
-Micro-PA actually has 6 capsules per 750mg PA, but do they use Mediator?

Perhaps they didn't want to mention the specific product because the study found it didn't really work, and they didn't want to seem like they were against the product and didn't want any trouble/drama resulting from this.

Powder City has Mediator PA bulk powder, certificate of analysis and all. A possibility. Either way, I doubt the authors would waste the time, resources and money to do this study without having legit PA.

 

[mbonheur]

Yes, at any rate they even used a Mediator extract. Good to know.

It confirms my personal experiences though. Pure PA capsules at 750mg did close to nothing for me.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Powder City has Mediator PA bulk powder, certificate of analysis and all. A possibility. Either way, I doubt the authors would waste the time, resources and money to do this study without having legit PA.

Either way, I'm glad we have confirmation that it was Mediator PA. You are right that it wouldn't make sense to run the study without a legit source of PA similar to what was used in the other studies, but without actually knowing it, there'd be doubt and uncertainty over the study.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Now I want to see a study that uses a bit more training volume than this last study, and compares placebo, 750mg PA, and 1500mg PA. That would be a pretty definitive PA study IMO.

 

[Danes]

Now I want to see a study that uses a bit more training volume than this last study, and compares placebo, 750mg PA, and 1500mg PA. That would be a pretty definitive PA study IMO.

Yes, Micro PA use Mediator with SEDDS.
I really wonder what kind of Answer i will get from ChemiNutra.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, Micro PA use Mediator with SEDDS

I don't know. I think I'd just like to see it using Mediator PA. $64.95 for 20 days (at 750mg PA; 10 days at 1500mg), is just under $100/month for 750mg PA, and double that for 1500mg PA. Considering that multiple studies have used regular Mediator PA and found it to be effective, I don't see a need for something that's over 2x the price of other concentrated PA products. Let's figure out for sure what the verdict on "regular" PA is first. I'm still a fan of PA for ~$10/month from lecitihn granules, which are a generally healthy supplement. I haven't spent the $30+ a month on a concentrated PA product in a while though.

 

[Danes]

Either way, I'm glad we have confirmation that it was Mediator PA. You are right that it wouldn't make sense to run the study without a legit source of PA similar to what was used in the other studies, but without actually knowing it, there'd be doubt and uncertainty over the study.

It is not 100% sure those caps had the right dose. Even if a product contain patented ingredient, it does not mean it has 100% the dose as writted on the label.

Lets say I make own PA product for sale . I buy PA from Cheminutra etc. Cheminutra will never test my product.