Resolve
The BPS Rep
I take 'em with my high fat meals, which are typically in mid-evening.
Only supps I take on an empty stomach are stims/pre-workout/minerals/ergogenics
The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log
- Thread starter MrKleen73
- Start date
I take 'em with my high fat meals, which are typically in mid-evening.
Only supps I take on an empty stomach are stims/pre-workout/minerals/ergogenics
MrKleen73
Legend
Yeah, I read that there too well a magazine covering it. I think they said to have a small meal after the workout though. I would probably opt for a smaller dinner and a bigger meal post workout. I train in the AM Fasted well BCAAs
I wouldn't sweat the fish oil, I eat 2-4 almonds with my test boosting supps that say take with food. The rule of thumb for Lean Gains is 50 calories does not break the fast.
Red Dog
Well-known member
You could do either one with no ill-effect -- personally, I usually end up taking 2-3 during the fasted period.
Sik
Member
Yes normally they will eat some hand of nuts, or similar "snacks" as low caloric as possible with a mega meal at the end of the day.
The difference is:
Lean gains mega meal - Prot HIGH + Carb HIGH
Warrior - Prot + Carbs + Fat
The slin spike will be different, but i never tried it.
MrKleen73
Legend
I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
DreamWeaver
Legend
My macros are set to around 50 25 25, a little more fat on off days and more carbs on wd's... The fist meal is high protein lower carbs... just the way I prefer it and well the results have been phenomenal..
MrKleen73
Legend
Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. 
Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
DreamWeaver
Legend
Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat.
Triple meat sounds good...
Sik
Member
Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.
But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts
So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs
I'm a really Pain in the ass!
DreamWeaver
Legend
Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.
But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts
So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs
I'm a really Pain in the ass!
Yah I am pretty much the same but I do add in some calorie dense food for sanity, my choice is frozen yogurt which will have to be cut in latter prep as will all dairy...
Sik
Member
Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...
Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas
DreamWeaver
Legend
Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...
Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas
Yah ok for off season for me but my skin gets a bit watery with dairy so I will cut it out about 6 weeks before competing...
oufinny
Well-known member
I do the same thing, throw a few down during the fast sporadically with some Universal Liver Tabs. I don't take more than 2 at once with 2 liver tabs though, same thing Kleen said, keep it under 50 calories. I end up taking 4 with my fast breaking meal and another 3-4 later in the day for 10 total on most days.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat.
Triple-MEAT.... Yum...yum...yum!!! :food::food::food: Good things come in 3's!!!
Sik
Member
I understand, everyone is different and most of them will handle the foods in a different way.
Even with IF, and with the clean carbs i referred i easily come fat if i "overcome". But i'm loving the ideas shared here! NOT GOOD FOR PEOPLE CUTTING
This is why some guy's try some "pulses" of 10g of peptopro or similar amino's <50kcal, through the day.
Never tried it, but would like to know results!
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Very interesting concepts in here. I actually just read through the entire 26 pages...that was painful, but enlightening. So I quoted some posts for clarification.
According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.
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This
So, I usually workout in the morning at around 9am and get up at about 730ish. I take it that I should have my BCAA's only preworkout. I would need to time my last meal of the previous night to get the IF timing down so that I would then have my first REAL meal immediately post workout say at about 11am. This should consist of mainly easily digestible food sources from mainly protein and carbs. So a protein shake with some PowerCarb would be a good option? (this is for sticking to the diet and for ease of use because I rarely go straight home after my workouts and don't have a microwave at the gym). Then two hours later (if consuming 4 meals in the 8 hour window) or ~three hours later (if consuming 3 meals in the 8 hour window), have my biggest meal of the day consisting of ~50% of my daily caloric intake (in whatever Macro's as long as it fits into my overall daily macro intake goals)? I really want to get this down right because I'm intrigued by it and can only give it a fair shot and be successful with it if I do it correctly. I'm in contest prep now and want to see if this really does work better for me.
That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.
So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?
I use myfitnesspal app for my droid. It's easy to use and effective and allows me to consistently monitor and adjust my macros and caloric intake as the day goes on. I changed the goal setting and adjusted the macros to meet my own specifications.
My last two questions:
What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.
Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?
Sorry I have so many questions but I really want to get this right. I want to have a really good showing in my next contest and I know diet and conditioning is key so if you could please be detailed and help me understand this I would be greatly appreciative!
So I quoted some posts for clarification.According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.
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This
So, I usually workout in the morning at around 9am and get up at about 730ish. I take it that I should have my BCAA's only preworkout. I would need to time my last meal of the previous night to get the IF timing down so that I would then have my first REAL meal immediately post workout say at about 11am. This should consist of mainly easily digestible food sources from mainly protein and carbs. So a protein shake with some PowerCarb would be a good option? (this is for sticking to the diet and for ease of use because I rarely go straight home after my workouts and don't have a microwave at the gym). Then two hours later (if consuming 4 meals in the 8 hour window) or ~three hours later (if consuming 3 meals in the 8 hour window), have my biggest meal of the day consisting of ~50% of my daily caloric intake (in whatever Macro's as long as it fits into my overall daily macro intake goals)? I really want to get this down right because I'm intrigued by it and can only give it a fair shot and be successful with it if I do it correctly. I'm in contest prep now and want to see if this really does work better for me.
That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.
So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?
I use myfitnesspal app for my droid. It's easy to use and effective and allows me to consistently monitor and adjust my macros and caloric intake as the day goes on. I changed the goal setting and adjusted the macros to meet my own specifications.
My last two questions:
What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.
Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?
Sorry I have so many questions but I really want to get this right. I want to have a really good showing in my next contest and I know diet and conditioning is key so if you could please be detailed and help me understand this I would be greatly appreciative!
EasyEJL
Never enough
Part of the question mark about doing this is whether that is enough in nutrients to take your body out of the fasted state, effectively ruining any growth hormone/insulin sensitivity gains that are a major point of IF.
Ever tried caralluma fimbrata based ones? they seem to work well.
stims. You do get used to it though. I've been doing fasted training for a long time now, but often when I travel for work I end up having to do evening non-fasted workouts. Theres a slight strength difference (higher) when I do that, but either way I continue to see progression.
Red Dog
Well-known member
I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).
Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.
Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.
But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.
As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)
But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:
Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?
that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.
Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:
Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?
that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.
Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
As for the IF factor I can see that being a valid point, but if it's only every 2-3 hours of BCAA supplementation with no other intake, then it should (I presume) fall in the "under 50 cals" cutoff point of eliciting such a response. I'm not sure if this is an accurate interpretation though.
I haven't had caralluma fimbrata but I will check it out, thanks for the head up on it.
Now, when I read through the initial doublegains leangains article, he stated he ate two hours before his workout. Do you AM workouters do this or do you just do BCAA's pre and then start you first meal as your "easy to digest" post workout meal? I wonder cause I workout at around 9-10 am typically. I absolutely hate mornings and hate getting up any earlier then I have to. Do you AM'ers eat first thing in the morning say, 7 AM then workout at 9AM then do your big second meal at 11 AM and then wrap up the last meal with his proposed slow digesting protein at 1 PM? This leaves alot of the day left in this fasted state, however, I see one potential advantage is that when you're hungriest, you'll be asleep and know that you will wake up to a nice meal!
One potential disadvantage is that the evening is when we're typically most likely to snack and have those cravings. I dunno, what do you guys find works best for you? Anybody tried both ways?I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).
Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.
Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.
But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.
As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.
As for the no carb, I'm meaning only on the no carb days of a typical carb cycle or is that trying to integrate too much into the program? I'm not sure if it would have an added benefit in conjunction with LG/IF diet.
I do use nutrient repartitioners as well, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason not too on this diet!
Thanks for taking the time to reply, this diet is SO new to me and I'm already dead set on trying it.
Sik
Member
It depends, but keeping what you purpose it makes a difference if you want to WO fasted, or not.
So fasted:
9am cup coffee
10am train + intraWO aminoAcids
11.30am 60% of caloric intake of the day most of starchy carbs + lean protein
(can be oats and whey after + sweet potatoes and chicken as a solid meal)
3pm 20% of intake, based on some fruits (berries!) + good fats (EVOO, coco oil or nuts) + protein source
7pm 20% intake, fat protein source as salmon or beef + green veggies unlimited + EVOO
This is an example.
If you don't want to workout fasted, as i actually prefer to use some carbs peri-workout, you can use 10% of total daily intake pre-intra and the HUGE meal of 50% of total calories.
This lifestyle is easily adjustable!
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Nevermind on my previous questions!
Well, I just spent the last four hours (and several more earlier) reading through all of leangains. Funny thing was...I had that site bookmarked already! I had done it for future reading as I found it to be very interesting but never really got into it. I got all my answers pretty much solved by reading just about every article on that site and others.
As for my AM routine I was asking about...well here it was:
"Protocol needed: Fasted Training (see the Leangains Guide for details).
We're going to assume that you're at the gym at 10 AM and break your fast at 12-1 PM.
10 AM: Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase.
*For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period.
“The researchers concluded that "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session. "
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10-11 AM: Weight Training: I suggest using a setup similar to reverse pyramid training, which is my favored approach. This is a high intensity, low volume setup. Keeping intensity high is key in order to reap the catecholamine-related benefits. Do 2-3 sets of 4-8 reps for compound movements and 1-2 sets of 8-10 reps for assistance movements (curls, triceps work, etc). Do no more than 5 movements per session.
11-12 AM: When you're done, which should be in no more than an hour, insulin (which was temporarily elevated by the pre-workout BCAAs) will be back to fasted baseline again. Immediately take 0.2 mg yohimbine and do 30-45 min of steady state cardio; cycling, treadmill walking at 3-3.5 mph (slight incline optional), brisk walking outside, etc. The yohimbine will rapidly take effect.
12-1 PM: Eat."
He also stated to drink BCAA's every two hours after your workout during the feeding time...so incorporating this into the MPS max stimulatory window (as described by Layne Norton previously quoted in my second or so post up with the reference included) I have come up with this for the 8 hour window from my understanding of what it entails in conjunction with Mark's teachings.
Ramp down carbs with each meal.
-Meal 1: High protein, high carbs, no/low fat (also the biggest meal and is the post workout meal)
-BCAA’s
-Meal 2: High protein, med/low carbs, med fat
-BCAA’s
-Meal 3: High protein, no/low carbs, med/high fat
No processed junk food
Relatively high intake of protein all the time
Higher carb / lower fat on workout days
Higher fat / lower carb on rest days
+20% of caloric intake above BMR on training days
-20% of caloric intake below BMR on resting (or low to moderate cardio for increased fat burning) days
*Now for his given food selection ideas:
LEAN GAINS FOOD SELECTION:
Invalid Link Removed
REST DAY MEALS:
Invalid Link Removed
POST WORKOUT MEALS:
Invalid Link Removed
It was also apparent that he was NOT a proponent of nuts or dried fruit (from him saying so on LG).
Anybody have any more leangain meals?
Well, I just spent the last four hours (and several more earlier) reading through all of leangains. Funny thing was...I had that site bookmarked already! I had done it for future reading as I found it to be very interesting but never really got into it. I got all my answers pretty much solved by reading just about every article on that site and others.
As for my AM routine I was asking about...well here it was:
"Protocol needed: Fasted Training (see the Leangains Guide for details).
We're going to assume that you're at the gym at 10 AM and break your fast at 12-1 PM.
10 AM: Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase.
*For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period.
“The researchers concluded that "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session. "
Invalid Link Removed
10-11 AM: Weight Training: I suggest using a setup similar to reverse pyramid training, which is my favored approach. This is a high intensity, low volume setup. Keeping intensity high is key in order to reap the catecholamine-related benefits. Do 2-3 sets of 4-8 reps for compound movements and 1-2 sets of 8-10 reps for assistance movements (curls, triceps work, etc). Do no more than 5 movements per session.
11-12 AM: When you're done, which should be in no more than an hour, insulin (which was temporarily elevated by the pre-workout BCAAs) will be back to fasted baseline again. Immediately take 0.2 mg yohimbine and do 30-45 min of steady state cardio; cycling, treadmill walking at 3-3.5 mph (slight incline optional), brisk walking outside, etc. The yohimbine will rapidly take effect.
12-1 PM: Eat."
He also stated to drink BCAA's every two hours after your workout during the feeding time...so incorporating this into the MPS max stimulatory window (as described by Layne Norton previously quoted in my second or so post up with the reference included) I have come up with this for the 8 hour window from my understanding of what it entails in conjunction with Mark's teachings.
Ramp down carbs with each meal.
-Meal 1: High protein, high carbs, no/low fat (also the biggest meal and is the post workout meal)
-BCAA’s
-Meal 2: High protein, med/low carbs, med fat
-BCAA’s
-Meal 3: High protein, no/low carbs, med/high fat
No processed junk food
Relatively high intake of protein all the time
Higher carb / lower fat on workout days
Higher fat / lower carb on rest days
+20% of caloric intake above BMR on training days
-20% of caloric intake below BMR on resting (or low to moderate cardio for increased fat burning) days
*Now for his given food selection ideas:
LEAN GAINS FOOD SELECTION:
Invalid Link Removed
REST DAY MEALS:
Invalid Link Removed
POST WORKOUT MEALS:
Invalid Link Removed
It was also apparent that he was NOT a proponent of nuts or dried fruit (from him saying so on LG).
Anybody have any more leangain meals?
Sik
Member
I have a lot of recipes...
But i'm a very restrict guy related to food choices... :S
As an example non-workout day biggest meal - Healthy Garfield Lasagna
- Zucchini (to make the 2 layers, bottom and middle)
- tomato (to make the sauce)
- ground beef 50% and ground chicken 50%
- cottage cheese (substitute sour cream)
- fat-free mozzarella oursimilar shredded
Just do 1 layer of zuchinni, put the half the cottage, plus half the meats cooked with favorite spices and tomato, another layer and repeat. At the top put some shredded cheese to cover.
Quantities depends on the goals.
But i'm a very restrict guy related to food choices... :S
As an example non-workout day biggest meal - Healthy Garfield Lasagna
- Zucchini (to make the 2 layers, bottom and middle)
- tomato (to make the sauce)
- ground beef 50% and ground chicken 50%
- cottage cheese (substitute sour cream)
- fat-free mozzarella oursimilar shredded
Just do 1 layer of zuchinni, put the half the cottage, plus half the meats cooked with favorite spices and tomato, another layer and repeat. At the top put some shredded cheese to cover.
Quantities depends on the goals.
DreamWeaver
Legend
Hey glad you decided to jump in, you'll be a valuable addition... first of all don't over think it, Lean Gains is quite forgiving, that being said I personally do a 50 30 20 PCF on workout days and 50 20 30 on nwd's. These are simply good macros for me being carb senstive... Now on wd's I only take in about 20% of my calories (maybe a bit more). This meal is mostly protein as I don't have a lot of carbs really and I save that for my big meal after workout. I train in the late afternoon so I am taking my pw shake at around 6pm and eating my big meal at 7pm (it doesn't matter how many meals just get the cals in). This meal has heavy duty protein and carbs and contains most of my cals, I add in some calorie dense stuff as it is quite a bit for one meal but it's mostly pretty clean and very satisfying..
NWD's I take in about 35-40% of my calories in with my fast breaking meal. Lots of protein some fat and carbs. I have another meal around 5pm and another 8pm the 5pm meal is about another 40% and the 8pm the remaining 20% but no carbs...
Now an option you might want to take is extending the fast till 4-5pm on nwd's if the cals are low from a bigger swing. I am currently using a smaller swing as I workout later in the day and need more nutrition the next day than most.
Hope this helps, Chris trans am so he will be able to elaborate more on that...
oufinny
Well-known member
Unreal, if I was you I would train fasted unless you are completely against that idea. That way when you are done with your workout, you can have a huge meal and will feel full and satiated for the next 2-4 hours depending on when you got up that day. The days I work out in the AM fasted I follow it up with easily 16-20 ozs of meat, not super picky if it is lean or not, about 100+ grams of carbs and maybe some fruit. If you don't want to eat that much meat, throw down a cup or more of cottage cheese. I vary my food choices up and I only measure out my carbs as I have to watch them, even with lean gains. All of what I eat is based on how I feel, I have not counted cals at all on lean gains and see body comp changes every few days, it really works that fast. Lots of great information on the website and after the first few days, your stomach is used to the BIG meals for fast breaking and you will be surprised how not hungry you are later in the day. Curious how it goes for you as we all know your training expertise is second to none.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
Unreal, here's my macro breakdown for a typical day:
Pre-workout: 3 Scoops Protocol + Mesomorph + a couple of protein bars if I'm starving
Post-workout: 80g Whey, 1Cup ground oats, 1/4C rice flour (80g protein + ~80g cho)
PPW: 100g Prot, 100g Cho
Meal 2: 100g Prot, 60g Fat
Meal 3: same as 2
Snack: more fat and protein as appetite dictates.
So all together, my macros are around 300-400g Prot, 200g Cho, 100-200g Fat.
Pre-workout: 3 Scoops Protocol + Mesomorph + a couple of protein bars if I'm starving
Post-workout: 80g Whey, 1Cup ground oats, 1/4C rice flour (80g protein + ~80g cho)
PPW: 100g Prot, 100g Cho
Meal 2: 100g Prot, 60g Fat
Meal 3: same as 2
Snack: more fat and protein as appetite dictates.
So all together, my macros are around 300-400g Prot, 200g Cho, 100-200g Fat.
MrKleen73
Legend
I refer to rest days and cardio only days as one and the same. I am actually now just referring to the even more generically as Burn and Build days. Just basically calling them by their function and leaving it at that. So from now on you will see me refer to them as Burn and Build days.
I can understand being tired in the mornings and needing to get the CNS used to getting up and kicking ass imediately but there is not any carbohydrate issue training in the AM unless you simply did not have any carbs recently. Muscle tissue is very greedy. It will take up all the blood sugar when it needs to feed itself however you can have completely full muscles and your blood sugar be very low. You muscle will not give up the glycogen to be used in other tissues. It holds onto that glycogen until used by the muscle via relatively intense activity. You spend your fasting time in a hormonally induced state of lipolosys, burning fat for energy while preserving muscle. That while doing only light activity or resting so you are not really tapping into those glycogen stores just burning fat. SO there is plenty of glycogen stored up in the muscle after an overnight fast to have a good workout or even a carb free Burn day plus an overnight fast for that matter.
The problem is not with low blood sugar levels, it is with the CNS not being conditioned to fire that intensely in the morning. You just have to keep at it and retrain your CNS to run on all 8 cylanders first thing in the morning.
It looks like you have it about nailed. The pre workout shake would actually only be about 8-10 grams of aminos. Then you could start your post workout meal at 11:30, or if you want to eat until a little later in the evening delay it a little. I like to eat until around 8 so I do mine typically around Noon sometimes even 1 PM. I will give you some basic macros I shoot for in the meals but it honestly varies depending on my wants.
Build Day -
4AM 8 g aminos pre - 4:30-5:30 workout 5:30-5:45 sauna. Cuz I like it!
6AM 8 g aminos post
10-11 AM More aminos
12-1 Fast breaker - 100 grams protien minimum, 100-150 carbs
Meal 2 sometime between 2:30-4:30 75 protein 75-100 grams of carbs
Meal 3 between 7-8PM 75-100 grams protein 30grams of it being from 1 cup fat free cottage cheese, 50 grams carbs
For fat I am not overly concerned. I choose relatively lean cuts of meat and focus on protein content. I just keep a tally going regarding the carbs and protein and at the end of the day adjust by adding some extra fat if needed via fish oil and almonds. On lower body days I range from about 3000-3500 calories, depending on how I am looking, and on upper body days 2700-3000.
Burn Day - At first I started just breaking fast at my normal time. Then as it became easier and easier and I learned the biochemistry behind what is happening with my body I started extending the fast. Extending the fast only increases the amount of fat lost without causing any catabolism so you can eat as limited calories as you want on a fast day and not lose any muscle mass. Hormonally your body is set to spare protein and burn fat for energy during the fast so I take full advantage of it. I keep my high end of calories at 1800 occasionally I will go ever but normally I end up under in the 1000-1500 range.
Lower carb on Burn days is automatic if you think about it. YOu cut your calories by 35% you are gonna cut your carbs by 35% even if you keep your macros the same. However he doesn't tout low carb anywhere and says only people carb sensitive people should worry about it. On a low carb day in LG you may say cut carbs in half from 400 to 200, it is really very personal and dependant on your carb tolerance. I have fouind my carb tolerance has increased by about 75-100 grams of carbs per day in general just because of the benefits of insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissue.Now, when I read through the initial doublegains leangains article, he stated he ate two hours before his workout. Do you AM workouters do this or do you just do BCAA's pre and then start you first meal as your "easy to digest" post workout meal? I wonder cause I workout at around 9-10 am typically. I absolutely hate mornings and hate getting up any earlier then I have to. Do you AM'ers eat first thing in the morning say, 7 AM then workout at 9AM then do your big second meal at 11 AM and then wrap up the last meal with his proposed slow digesting protein at 1 PM? This leaves alot of the day left in this fasted state, however, I see one potential advantage is that when you're hungriest, you'll be asleep and know that you will wake up to a nice meal!
As for the no carb, I'm meaning only on the no carb days of a typical carb cycle or is that trying to integrate too much into the program? I'm not sure if it would have an added benefit in conjunction with LG/IF diet.
I do use nutrient repartitioners as well, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason not too on this diet!
Remember insulin sensitivty in muscle changes relatively easily, it lowers with increases exposure, and increases quickly when not exposed to high amounts. However fat just keeps on storing as steady as a locomotive in the presence of insulin. So for those of us who are carb sensitive basically that means our insulin receptors are still sensitive in fat cells but have lost sensitivity in the muscle cells. This fasting has changed that around for me. My sensitivity in my muscle cells have actually increased quite a bit making them the main store for energy instead of fat tissue. Allowing me to increase my carb intake and have the glycogen stored in the muscle as opposed to ending up in fat cells.
Exactly. I like this I kind of do about the same from 50-60% in fast breaking meal then I split the rest between to meals or just have one more really big meal. It just depends on timing.
As he said I do the fasting longer on my Burn days. I pretty much follow the Lean Gains fasted training protocol that was posted about a page back.
Red Dog
Well-known member
Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (Invalid Link Removed)
He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (Invalid Link Removed)
I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."
Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (Invalid Link Removed)
I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."
Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
Sik
Member
Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (Invalid Link Removed)
He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (Invalid Link Removed)
I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."
Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
You did a good research, but start reading more about ADF, alternate day fasting with 36h fasting.
This was were Marting began. It was 1-2 days week, and then why not use an approach eveyday?
Most of the studies are WITH ADF. I prefer EVERYDAY 16/8, but does not means 36h fast + 36h feed, does not work
RickRock13
Well-known member
I'm intrigued by the idea of extending the fast on a burn day, but I'm a little on the fence about it. I could physically do it, but I am a little scared to do it just because it seems catabolic if you go real long. I've extended past a couple hours, but not beyond that.
ZamaMan
Banned
Wow unreal back from the dead. IMO it would bbe better to workout fasted than take bcaas aafter till 12 to start feasting. I just try to avoid breaking fast pre workout unless workout is late enough for me to get a good big solid preworkiut meal.
I know this post is filled with spelling errors but im buzzing lol
kingjameskjf
Well-known member
Thanks for the responses! Today was my first full day on LG. I got to the gym a bit later then I would have liked so I ended up doing LEGS on 19 hour fasted state (with just the pre BCAA's). It wasn't as bad as I feared but this is definitely going to need some getting used to. At the end of my workout my stomach was in knots in hunger pains, and then choking down all that food post workout was a chore! The 8 hour window now seems so small with condensing all my food that I've spaced out over the entire day for years. I feel bloated and my stomach is distended and hurts but I hit my same macros. Round two tomorrow!
RickRock13
Well-known member
Your body will adjust and it does get much easier in time.
MrKleen73
Legend
Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (Invalid Link Removed)
He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (Invalid Link Removed)
I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."
Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
Oh for sure he has his reasoning behind his eating and fasting split. As far as the fat oxidation of sub-q not increasing beyond the 16-18 mark even though more fat overall is burtned is not really a detraction for me. I do not mind losing visceral fat, it makes the waist line much smaller and muscles look harder. I am not a fan of the turtle shell look where you can see abs even though the stomach is distended but I can get that way easily because I store a lot of visceral or intramuscular fat. Sure it can make a muscle look a little fuller, but also softer and less defined. I don't mind losing it at an increased rate. Of course I am not lean enough to worry about it at this point maybe around 7% I may find I need to eat earlier to preserve muscle mass and then I will for sure. As of right now I am still gaining LBM while losing fat so I am happy with the adjustment. I have read a lot on the ADF and although I don't feel like completely limiting myself to one tiny meal on burn days I understand I am at no risk of muscle loss that day by extending my fast over 20 hours while increasing the overall fat burned. For me that is a positive.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
I agree with Kleen here for myself anyway. I too don't mind losing visceral fat. I would rather be skinnier, leaner, & lighter with that very hard dry look, vs. a bulkier appearance. I love all the science behind all this, this is an excellent thread and I'm learning more than I ever thought I could learn about IF and Lean Gains, etc. Good Stuff!!!
RickRock13
Well-known member
Couldnt have said it better myself. I have found that I enjoy being Lean way more than being as big as I can. I am totally cool with adding muscle in a little at a time as long as I can stay lean, and Lean Gains may be that answer I was looking for to achieve that. The science makes a lot of sense and if anything the freedom in the diet makes it worth it on face value alone for me when trying to cut weight. From this point forward I will do my damndest to try and stay no higher than 10% while trying to add in muscle. No more huge cuts for me!!
Lean Gains may not be for everyone, but I think there are more people that can find success with this type of diet than with some of the others just because it is easier to stick with IMO. And as we all know, the diet that works is the one that you stick with.:banana:
Rosie Chee
The Female Terminator
:goodpost: Definitely prefer being lean - and that is the focus right now, everything else secondary. The great thing about eating this way (since, as I mentioned earlier, after reading more about Lean Gains, realize that this is pretty much what I do now) is that it's easy to get and stay lean (for example, last week I lost 1.1% bodyfat in ~5 days), but not just that, in recomping as well (for example, this week I gained 1.2 pounds, but decreased body composition by 0.1%, for a gain of 1.2044 pounds lean mass and loss of 0.0044 pounds bodyfat)! It's also what works best for MY body - just have to see results of the last two weeks to know it :thumbsup:
~Rosie~
Red Dog
Well-known member
Ah, I see what everyone is saying -- good call, and I definitely agree that there's nothing bad about oxidizing non-subcutaneous fat.
But the quotes in my last post have MB referring to an increase in oxidation specifically within intramuscular fat -- not visceral fat -- which I understand to be two distinct variations of adipose (they are differentiated in studies like this --> Invalid Link Removed). [Essentially, fat stored around and between organs vs. fat dispersed throughout skeletal tissue.] Not that reducing intramuscular fat is bad in any way since it might ultimately be problematic regarding insulin resistance (Invalid Link Removed).
Also, I'm definitely not saying that the rate of visceral fat oxidation won't increase as we extend fasts beyond ~16 hours (I don't think I've come across studies saying either way). My original goal was to just highlight that he considers gluconeogenesis via animo acids a potential detriment in extended fasts -- a note that might help those new to LG/IF shy away from pushing it too far. But beyond that limited concern, pretty much any type of fat oxidation (regardless of source) still helps us out!
But the quotes in my last post have MB referring to an increase in oxidation specifically within intramuscular fat -- not visceral fat -- which I understand to be two distinct variations of adipose (they are differentiated in studies like this --> Invalid Link Removed). [Essentially, fat stored around and between organs vs. fat dispersed throughout skeletal tissue.] Not that reducing intramuscular fat is bad in any way since it might ultimately be problematic regarding insulin resistance (Invalid Link Removed).
Also, I'm definitely not saying that the rate of visceral fat oxidation won't increase as we extend fasts beyond ~16 hours (I don't think I've come across studies saying either way). My original goal was to just highlight that he considers gluconeogenesis via animo acids a potential detriment in extended fasts -- a note that might help those new to LG/IF shy away from pushing it too far. But beyond that limited concern, pretty much any type of fat oxidation (regardless of source) still helps us out!
RickRock13
Well-known member
Also, 1000th post -- just wanted it to be in a thread I really like!
No doubt...this thread is full of win!!:banana:
Milas
Board Sponsor
Congrats on making the switch. I find the hunger thing is overrated, and easy enough to deal with. I also haven't noticed anything with fogginess or being tired. However, I use stims during the day, and I think the effects are amplified during the fast.
My problem is the gorging that takes place afterwards, it's like my ghrelin is out of control! I have a hard time stopping myself at 2K calories for lunch, and same goes for dinner!
malleus25
Active member
Thanks, my problem is the wife she sees the huge dinner and is like how is this better, this is going to be expensive and so on.
I just let my 1900 cal dinner drown her out as she eats her little salad and slim-fast.
Buy the way Better bars are part of my meal plan for pre-workout food.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
Milas
Board Sponsor
Better Protein Bars are AWESOME during lean gains, I can eat a bunch (maybe why my calories get high!). I have the Chocolate Raspberry right now, tasty as all get-out, which ones are you using? I just ordered Chocolate Banana too...
My wife loves it when I sit down to a huge meal, it impresses her for some reason.
LUCKY! My wife is like Malleus', she is like WTF are you doing eating all this! Then again I was just doing pre-contest dieting, and I would eat less calories/food the entire day than I do with 1 LeanGains meal!
My wife is anything but impressed, but atleast she rolls her eyes and goes along with it. She just gets confused with how frequently my diet changes, and when I can and can't have carbs!!!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
My wife loves it when I sit down to a huge meal, it impresses her for some reason.
Funny that you say that, every woman I think I have ever dated including my ex-wife and present wife, all just absolutely love to see me eat a huge meal!
Things that make you go Hmmm???
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Sounds just like my wife, she has no idea no matter how much I try to explain the science behind why, what, & when I eat the way I do... :frustrate, because her version of dieting is eating nothing as long as possible then eating a small carrot or celery stick then going as long as she can without eating again and repeat. Usually lasts about 3 days, she feels like $hit, is no fun to be around, she loses the 10Lbs she wants to lose then gains it all back in 1 day, but will never admit it!
Rosie Chee
The Female Terminator
Tell your wife she's only harming herself eating like that, and more than likely, NOT ever going to get the results she wants, because she's essentially starving herself to do it, which means that her body will fight her for everything and hold onto it and even add to it, rebounding any weight lost as soon as she starts eating properly. Not to mention that scale weight is not that big of a deal - she should learn that too, especially since being "fat skinny" is not ideal. Losing Scale weight is easy, but all she's losing is water and food weight and very likely any small amount of muscle mass that she may have, NOT fat. If her goal is fat loss, then educate her on the importance of nutrition; let her know that eating is ok - hell, use me as an example re eating if you have to; I eat ~4,300 calories a day and can get and stay lean (not typical for a female of my size, I know, but it is a living proof example of a woman who EATS - highly likely more than you, Al, LOL).
~Rosie~