The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[RecompMan]

Wow actually for some reason I though burn 24 had synephrine

But opinion still stands.

Burn 24 better to be used on a cut with a fat burner due to bergenin

Gcbe seems to lower cortisol a little and increase lipolysis

So as stated better suited low carb and with a fat burner (specifically with yohimbine ) which ironically can be AAv2 or Norcodrene

 

[saggy321]

Why do you have a protein shake right after a PWO Meal? Thats pointless
why is your fat low post-workout? It does not matter what your fat intake is post-workout:

http://www.alanaragon.com/researchreview
Read that for Fat post-workout

There is no advantage to IF
there is no advantage to biorhythm
your caloric surplus or deficit is your advantage to your goal even if you eat 6 meals a day or 3 meals a day

Personal preference. Do what suits you and what you find optimal.

This is very true. Just be careful with IF. It's good but for certain personalities it can be detrimental.

 

[fueledpassion]

It is a little known secret that the insulin sensitivity that u experience post workout deminishes to negligible amounts after ingesting carbs or after the 36hr mark- whichever comes first.

Any of you ever heard of carbless post-workout? Its the reason that biorythym is likely working for you because you are essentially stretching out your elevated protein synthesis by avoiding carbs til much later after your workout.

 

[Rodja]

It is a little known secret that the insulin sensitivity that u experience post workout deminishes to negligible amounts after ingesting carbs or after the 36hr mark- whichever comes first. Any of you ever heard of carbless post-workout? Its the reason that biorythym is likely working for you because you are essentially stretching out your elevated protein synthesis by avoiding carbs til much later after your workout.

Reference, please.

 

[scotty1703]

Hey guys..possibly the wrong thread..but my question is.im suffering from a broken collarbone and unable to train (mma or lifting) has anybody heard of any ways to speed recovery up.thanks

 

[Captn_the]

Hey guys..possibly the wrong thread..but my question is.im suffering from a broken collarbone and unable to train (mma or lifting) has anybody heard of any ways to speed recovery up.thanks

HGH and nandrolone

 

[The Solution]

This.....

Reference, please.

 

[jswain34]

He's doing it correctly But if recall my posts none of them are technically selective. And both Recomp and burn 24 block carb absorption but the ingredients in burn 24 are more suited toward lipolysis (via diff mechanisms the. Recomp) then recompadrol. Burn 24 is more if a low carb day GDA IMO.

Wow actually for some reason I though burn 24 had synephrine But opinion still stands. Burn 24 better to be used on a cut with a fat burner due to bergenin Gcbe seems to lower cortisol a little and increase lipolysis So as stated better suited low carb and with a fat burner (specifically with yohimbine ) which ironically can be AAv2 or Norcodrene

Cool thanks. I will see if i can possibly find where i saw that berberine was selective but I'm not sure ill be able to. I know you so a **** ton of research yourself which is why i take what you say with confidence that it is researched and at backed by current science.

 

[RecompMan]

Cool thanks. I will see if i can possibly find where i saw that berberine was selective but I'm not sure ill be able to. I know you so a **** ton of research yourself which is why i take what you say with confidence that it is researched and at backed by current science.

Selective in which it reduces
Glucose uptake ad lipid formation in adipose cells and prevents differentiation PPARy antagonism

And increases it in liver and muscle PPARa agonism

 

[jswain34]

Selective in which it reduces Glucose uptake ad lipid formation in adipose cells and prevents differentiation PPARy antagonism

And increases it in liver and muscle PPARa agonism

Perhaps that was where i became confused then. Not sure. Either way, thanks for the clarification.

 

[fueledpassion]

Reference, please.

Sure, but not now. I have to go to work. When I get a chance, I'll give u guys a few.

 

[fueledpassion]

Reference, please.

A few..


2 - Ivy JL and Holloszy JO. Persistent increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol 241: C200–C203, 1981
3 - Holloszy, John O., Exercise-induced increase in muscle insulin sensitivity, J Appl Physiol 99: 338–343, 2005
4 - Holloszy, J. O., S. H. Constable, And D. A. Young, Activation of glucose transport in muscle by exercise, Diabetes/Metab. Rev. 1: 409-423,1986.
5 - Richter, E. A., L. P. Garetto, M. N. Goodman, And N. B. Ruderman, Enhanced Muscle Glucose Metabolism After Exercise: Modulation By Local Factors, Am. J. Physiol. 246 (Endocrinol. Metab. 9): E476-E482,1984.
6 - Wallberg-Henriksson, H., S. H. Constable, D. A. Young, And J. 0. Holloszy, Glucose Transport Into Rat Skeletal Muscle: Interaction Between Exercise And Insulin. J. Appl. Physiol. 65: 909- 913,1988.
7 - Zorzano, A., T. W. Balon, M. N. Goodman, And N. B. RudErman, Glycogen Depletion And Increased Insulin Sensitivity And Responsiveness In Muscle After Exercise. Am. J. Physiol. 251 (Endocrinol. Metab. 14): E664-E
8 - Cartee Gregory D. et al., Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise, Am. J. Physiol. 256 (Endocrinol. Metab. 19): E494-E499, 1989
9 - Fell RD, Terblanche SE, Ivy JL, Young JC, and Holloszy JO, Effects of muscle glycogen content on glucose uptake by muscle following exercise, J Appl Physiol 52: 434–437, 1982.
10 - Young JC, Garthwaite SM, Bryan JE, Cartier L.J., and Holloszy JO. Carbohydrate-feeding speeds reversal of enhanced glucose uptake in muscle after exercise, Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 245: R684–R688, 1983.
11 - Pablo M. Garcia-Roves, Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 285: E729–E736, 2003
12 - Allberg-Henriksson, H., S. H. Constable, D. A. Young, and J. 0. Holloszy, Glucose Transport Into Rat Skeletal Muscle: Interaction Between Exercise And Insulin, J. Appz. Physiol. 65: 909- 913,1988.
13 - Young, D.A., et al., Reversal of the exercise-induced increase in muscle permeability to glucose, Am. J. Physiol. 253 (Endocrinol. Metab. 16): E331-E335, 1987

I wish I could give you summaries from DatbTrue, but I'm not allowed to according to his rules. He specifically asked for his excerpts & nutshells on this topic to not be discussed elsewhere. If I'm not mistaken, the community trainer uses this approach with great success on all his clients. Anyways, poke around on those references and maybe you can find out exactly how it works. I plan to give it a shot when I'm cutting during my next contest prep.

And two more:

14 - Roy and Tarnopolsky, Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training, J Appl Physiol 82: 1882-1888, 1997


Influence of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle, Andrew Creer, et al., J Appl Physiol 99: 950–956, 2005


The diet demands that muscle glycogen be fully restored before the next workout session though so at some point you have to start ingesting carbs again to get this done.

 

[MrKleen73]

Always nice to pop back in for some reading. The Solution I just subbed to your youtube channel going to try some of those recipes.

 

[Rodja]

A few.. 2 - Ivy JL and Holloszy JO. Persistent increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol 241: C200-C203, 1981 3 - Holloszy, John O., Exercise-induced increase in muscle insulin sensitivity, J Appl Physiol 99: 338-343, 2005 4 - Holloszy, J. O., S. H. Constable, And D. A. Young, Activation of glucose transport in muscle by exercise, Diabetes/Metab. Rev. 1: 409-423,1986. 5 - Richter, E. A., L. P. Garetto, M. N. Goodman, And N. B. Ruderman, Enhanced Muscle Glucose Metabolism After Exercise: Modulation By Local Factors, Am. J. Physiol. 246 (Endocrinol. Metab. 9): E476-E482,1984. 6 - Wallberg-Henriksson, H., S. H. Constable, D. A. Young, And J. 0. Holloszy, Glucose Transport Into Rat Skeletal Muscle: Interaction Between Exercise And Insulin. J. Appl. Physiol. 65: 909- 913,1988. 7 - Zorzano, A., T. W. Balon, M. N. Goodman, And N. B. RudErman, Glycogen Depletion And Increased Insulin Sensitivity And Responsiveness In Muscle After Exercise. Am. J. Physiol. 251 (Endocrinol. Metab. 14): E664-E 8 - Cartee Gregory D. et al., Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise, Am. J. Physiol. 256 (Endocrinol. Metab. 19): E494-E499, 1989 9 - Fell RD, Terblanche SE, Ivy JL, Young JC, and Holloszy JO, Effects of muscle glycogen content on glucose uptake by muscle following exercise, J Appl Physiol 52: 434-437, 1982. 10 - Young JC, Garthwaite SM, Bryan JE, Cartier L.J., and Holloszy JO. Carbohydrate-feeding speeds reversal of enhanced glucose uptake in muscle after exercise, Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 245: R684-R688, 1983. 11 - Pablo M. Garcia-Roves, Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 285: E729-E736, 2003 12 - Allberg-Henriksson, H., S. H. Constable, D. A. Young, and J. 0. Holloszy, Glucose Transport Into Rat Skeletal Muscle: Interaction Between Exercise And Insulin, J. Appz. Physiol. 65: 909- 913,1988. 13 - Young, D.A., et al., Reversal of the exercise-induced increase in muscle permeability to glucose, Am. J. Physiol. 253 (Endocrinol. Metab. 16): E331-E335, 1987 I wish I could give you summaries from DatbTrue, but I'm not allowed to according to his rules. He specifically asked for his excerpts & nutshells on this topic to not be discussed elsewhere. If I'm not mistaken, the community trainer uses this approach with great success on all his clients. Anyways, poke around on those references and maybe you can find out exactly how it works. I plan to give it a shot when I'm cutting during my next contest prep. And two more: 14 - Roy and Tarnopolsky, Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training, J Appl Physiol 82: 1882-1888, 1997 Influence of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle, Andrew Creer, et al., J Appl Physiol 99: 950-956, 2005 The diet demands that muscle glycogen be fully restored before the next workout session though so at some point you have to start ingesting carbs again to get this done.

I'm still sifting through these, but haven't seen anything backing up your statement.

What approach is being used exactly? Part of my contention is the 36-hour statement as that would take a protocol of at least said period of time to go carb-free after training.

 

[The Solution]

Always nice to pop back in for some reading. The Solution I just subbed to your youtube channel going to try some of those recipes.

Awesome man let me know what you think!

 

[MrKleen73]

Awesome man let me know what you think!

Will do, I have never actually tried any cooking with the proteins powders but know there are some pretty great recipes.

 

[fueledpassion]

Will do, I have never actually tried any cooking with the proteins powders but know there are some pretty great recipes.

BSN Lean Dessert works very well with whole grain pancake mix.

 

[Johnston]

What kind of foods were you eating? And how much fat?

 

[Whacked]

SM. I will be following this. I plan to start a modified CBL/Biorhythm regimen any day now as well. Waiting for my Recompadrol to arrive as an added security blanket for my experiment (b/c I'm a glucose intolerant mess lol).

MY version will be a strict adherence to very low carbs (incidental ones that come from greens only) and all protein/healthy fats from 8am-6pm (I train at 7am)

Then at 6pm, 100-200 Carbs (low/no fat) depending on the training load for that day

Whacked since you wanted an update here it is: I followed BioRhythm for 3 days, consuming 95% of my carbs and 100% of fruits and starched with my 7:00 PM meal. The morning after I wasn't bloated or cut and dry and full, really no change. I did feel stronger in my workouts, I maxed my bench at 250 lbs for an easy 1 rep with strict form. Energy has been good throughout the day too. Now today, I went lower carb, and tried having my carbs post workout, then P+F's in the meals afterwards. I noticed only 120g of carbs (180-200g at 7:00 PM the other days) made me very full and bloated and it was still post workout. I guess I never noticed I would get bloated and full post workout this whole time, as I never tried anything else. Energy level stayed fine, but definitely saw a difference bloat wise having P+C, then P+F and P+F vs BioRhythm style. I wonder why this is though? Figured with IF and post workout heightened insulin sensitivity, bloat wouldn't be an issue post workout. If anything I figured it would be an issue having them that late, that many, and that far away from my lift. I kept the foods and calories the same, (minus minimizing the carbs), just flipped the order & amounts. Anyway, that's my status so far. Tomorrow I'm having just 30g of carbs and it's my lower calorie rest day with some core in the morning if I'm not too sore in the AM

 

[The Solution]

Whacked since you wanted an update here it is:

I followed BioRhythm for 3 days, consuming 95% of my carbs and 100% of fruits and starched with my 7:00 PM meal. The morning after I wasn't bloated or cut and dry and full, really no change. I did feel stronger in my workouts, I maxed my bench at 250 lbs for an easy 1 rep with strict form. Energy has been good throughout the day too.

Now today, I went lower carb, and tried having my carbs post workout, then P+F's in the meals afterwards. I noticed only 120g of carbs (180-200g at 7:00 PM the other days) made me very full and bloated and it was still post workout. I guess I never noticed I would get bloated and full post workout this whole time, as I never tried anything else. Energy level stayed fine, but definitely saw a difference bloat wise having P+C, then P+F and P+F vs BioRhythm style.

I wonder why this is though? Figured with IF and post workout heightened insulin sensitivity, bloat wouldn't be an issue post workout. If anything I figured it would be an issue having them that late, that many, and that far away from my lift.

I kept the foods and calories the same, (minus minimizing the carbs), just flipped the order & amounts. Anyway, that's my status so far. Tomorrow I'm having just 30g of carbs and it's my lower calorie rest day with some core in the morning if I'm not too sore in the AM

Just goes to show how different things work for different people. Its better to have your CHO last meal why? because you train first thing upon waking your storing your glycogen and also allowing for optimal energy and fueling the tank for your early session.

 

[The Solution]

I understand that. But the bloat from the carbohydrates is what confuses me. Physiologically you'd think bloat would occur more at night, not post workout. Its interesting stuff

Lower your fiber in your sources.

 

[RecompMan]

SM. I will be following this. I plan to start a modified CBL/Biorhythm regimen any day now as well. Waiting for my Recompadrol to arrive as an added security blanket for my experiment (b/c I'm a glucose intolerant mess lol).

MY version will be a strict adherence to very low carbs (incidental ones that come from greens only) and all protein/healthy fats from 8am-6pm (I train at 7am)

Then at 6pm, 100-200 Carbs (low/no fat) depending on the training load for that day

My version is the same. Here's what I do

When I started the carb backload biorhythm

Morning wake up take pre workouts aminos

Train

Post workout aminos and carb powders carbion/dark matter/ carbonx

Wait about 1 hour or so. Protein fat meal.

Wait 8 hours protein carb meal

Aminos in between

I started with as litte as 25g post workout and got up to 50-75. I felt best at 50 post workout.

Moving forward to present day before injury

Intra carbs at 75g with a concoction of powders aminos pres starting drinking it set 4 and finishing before or middle of last exercise

Get home just have aminos. Shower then protein fat meal. 8 hours later protein fat meal

For you I'd recommend just post workout carbs and night time

 

[Whacked]

Thanks EBF

Ps: Are GDA type products like Recompadrol designed more for simple or complex carbs? There has to be a difference in how these GDAs impart their effect whether it's a simple sugar or starchy variety. While I am asking, please also add fruits (fructose) to the discussion?

Thanks in advance !!

 

[RecompMan]

Thanks EBF

Ps: Are GDA type products like Recompadrol designed more for simple or complex carbs? There has to be a difference in how these GDAs impart their effect whether it's a simple sugar or starchy variety. While I am asking, please also add fruits (fructose) to the discussion?

Thanks in advance !!

Well

If long chain glucose polymers that use alpha amylase or glucosidase, you will block digestion

Simple sugars like straight sugar it won't block however you won't get as high as an insulin response. Still imparts its effects just depends on source in which it'll work

I used ingredients to aid in sucrose induce high bp.

If I recall correctly fructose is not blocked by alpha glucosidase nor should it be

 

[The Solution]

Thanks EBF

Ps: Are GDA type products like Recompadrol designed more for simple or complex carbs? There has to be a difference in how these GDAs impart their effect whether it's a simple sugar or starchy variety. While I am asking, please also add fruits (fructose) to the discussion?

Thanks in advance !!

you will never fill liver glycogen so fruits won't really matter, if you made most of your carbs simple in a backload for the day, your micronutrients may be void off P+F Sources.

 

[The Solution]

All about those complex starchy carbs! rice and oats FTW

not all about them, sure simple carbs are ok, but to make the MAJORITY of your carb intake from simple carbs/sugars is not a very wise idea.

 

[Johnston]

Is there an acceptable 'range' in terms of grams of simple sugars per day (workout day that is, not a rest day) or is it very much an individual thing?

 

[fueledpassion]

I find individual. My roommate slams poptarts, white bread, candy etc and other "simple" carbs and doesn't gain a pound of fat.

If i do that I feel like i want to die in 20 minutes lol

Same here. 28 is not anywhere near being like 21 for me, or even 25 for that matter. Ever since I popped 170lbs, my insulin resistance has increased substantially. Sucks.

 

[The Solution]

Is there an acceptable 'range' in terms of grams of simple sugars per day (workout day that is, not a rest day) or is it very much an individual thing?

why exclude rest days? i still eat 300+g of carbs on rest days
But your focus should be from MICRO-nutrient dense foods, once you meet your protein/fat/fiber intake (think i have said this countless times now) then some simple carbs are fine.

Some people don't do massive swings on IF because it does not suit them, me being one of them. i just drop my carbs 20-30g on rest days from my workout days, the total surplus/deficit can be set up anyway you want it to be.

 

[manifesto]

Bump.


Does anyone know if Martin still has an active blog somewhere? All of the stuff on the LeanGains site is from a while back...

 

[MrKleen73]

HMMMMM... no I haven't been to the site in some time. I can't imagine him abandoning it though.

 

[MrKleen73]

you will never fill liver glycogen so fruits won't really matter, if you made most of your carbs simple in a backload for the day, your micronutrients may be void off P+F Sources.

The difference is in how much insulin is put out from simple to complex carbs and not how insulin mimickers work with either. It simply increases insulin sensitivity and or makes the body think more insulin has been released depending on the mode of action of the GDA. Other than that the only difference is in how much insulin is released between the two types of carbs.

If cutting go with more complex carbs minimize the insulin spike but use the mimetic to get the nutrients into the system without the large insulin spike.

If bulking when fat gain is not a major concern then a combination of both so you still get a big insulin spike and more into the muscle. Just remember that fat is insulin sensitive too so when you increase sensitivity you are increasing fat storage too. Not a good idea for anyone who gains fat easily. You are sensitive enough just eat...

People who have high insulin sensitivity in fat cells gain fat faster than others, and the more fat they have the more sensitive it is and more apt to store it. In that case really there is not much reason for them to ever use a GDA unless low carbing it and trying to get nutrients into the muscle with as little insulin as possible.

 

[RecompMan]

The difference is in how much insulin is put out from simple to complex carbs and not how insulin mimickers work with either. It simply increases insulin sensitivity and or makes the body think more insulin has been released depending on the mode of action of the GDA. Other than that the only difference is in how much insulin is released between the two types of carbs. If cutting go with more complex carbs minimize the insulin spike but use the mimetic to get the nutrients into the system without the large insulin spike. If bulking when fat gain is not a major concern then a combination of both so you still get a big insulin spike and more into the muscle. Just remember that fat is insulin sensitive too so when you increase sensitivity you are increasing fat storage too. Not a good idea for anyone who gains fat easily. You are sensitive enough just eat... People who have high insulin sensitivity in fat cells gain fat faster than others, and the more fat they have the more sensitive it is and more apt to store it. In that case really there is not much reason for them to ever use a GDA unless low carbing it and trying to get nutrients into the muscle with as little insulin as possible.

Your body will secrete the same amount of insulin no matter what type as long as net carbs are equal

It's a matter of how much OVER TIME

Fat cells and muscle cells require different amounts of insulin to uptake glucose

I can't find the study I am referencing, however, fat cells require much more Insulin to get glucose into the cell

 

[The Solution]

Your body will secrete the same amount of insulin no matter what type as long as net carbs are equal

It's a matter of how much OVER TIME

Fat cells and muscle cells require different amounts of insulin to uptake glucose

Was about to post this
When we eat carbs the majority of the time it's with protein or fat therefore the insulin spike
Is greatly reduced as is the total GI of the meal