The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

DreamWeaver said:
I thnk that when you train plays a big factor as well, you have to listen to your body, this is not cookie cutter.. If you are too hungry on your off days take some from your on days to compensate, this is going to happen if you train later in the day where a lot of the recovery occurs ths next day.
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Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
 
Milas said:
Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
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Yah morning training is 8-10 ours diference then you do all you're feeding later in the day... A bigger swing makes sense for this scenario, this is just me thinking out loud about what I experience. I think I get very hungry the next day because I train later in the day hence less of a swing for me.
 
Milas said:
Hmmm... 2400 - 2800 is not much of a swing. I'd think your maintenance would be higher than that, particularly with exercise? But I guess you are efficient...

I'm just surprised that I'm supposed to be at 4.2K cal on working days, and 2K cal on off days! That's more than a 50% swing! I guess that's the point of LeanGains / IF?

This weekend I'm going to try those zero calorie miracle noodles. Anyone try those?
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That is a lot of swing. I'm a little curious as to how you came to those numbers, particularly on your off days. For me I'm trying to do 3k on training days, and 1800-2k on rest days but I'm cutting too.
 
RickRock13 said:
That is a lot of swing. I'm a little curious as to how you came to those numbers, particularly on your off days. For me I'm trying to do 3k on training days, and 1800-2k on rest days but I'm cutting too.
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What professor, I showed my math :proof:

The math makes sense though, it's going from +20% to -20%; that's a total swing of 40%, or almost half.

Assuming my BMR is 2500, I add ~1000 cal on workout days (estimated on Livestrong.com). That gives me my maintenance, which I then add 20% to, so
2500 + 1000 = 3500 + 20% (700) = 4200.

For rest days, assuming I do nothing, my BMR alone (maintenance) will be 2500. Off days supposed to shoot for 20% below maintenance so:
2500 - 20% - 2000.

For a BMR of 2500 calories and exercise of 1000 calories:
On day: 4200
Off day: 2000
Off day + 500cal cardio: 2400


My actuals using real BMR (~2800cal) and exercise (~900cal) are closer to this:
On day: 4400
Off day: 2240
Off day + 500cal cardio: 2640


TIME TO GO HEAT UP MY FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Milas said:
Thanks, helps clear it up. I was thinking that was the case, but it just felt too good to be true! I have been eating like a freakin' KING, actually eating too much on some ocassions! Wow, that is even more awesome than I initially thought!

For Rest days though, I don't lift, so have to cut out the Exercise portion and rely on my BMR and if I can get cardio in to let me eat. In this example, I'd be at BMR 2500 + cardio 500 = 3000 - 20% = 2400 total calories. Even worse it drops to 2000 caloris if I don't do cardio. :(

Is it tough for everyone else to keep their calories restricted on off days? I just have the weekends off, but it is hard to turn off the feeding frenzy mode!!!

Last weekend I had go running at 11PM (after running earlier in the day) to make-up for excess calories, and I was still over my restricted goal!
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Oh I see what you did there. MB actually outlined it so you would calculate that first number and then add or subtract right from there; as in you would only calculate one maintenance number. It's on p.11 of Invalid Link Removed

But, the way you did it might be an even more useful way to measure it -- especially if you were on a cut! You could dip lower than his recommendation in the PDF (which I think is for "lean gains" as opposed to fat loss).

Good stuff!
 
Red Dog said:
Oh I see what you did there. MB actually outlined it so you would calculate that first number and then add or subtract right from there; as in you would only calculate one maintenance number. It's on p.11 of Invalid Link Removed

But, the way you did it might be an even more useful way to measure it -- especially if you were on a cut! You could dip lower than his recommendation in the PDF (which I think is for "lean gains" as opposed to fat loss).

Good stuff!
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What's odd and concern's me in MB's document is that "maintenance" is the same for working days and days off. Wouldn't "maintenance" be higher if you're lifting hard for 90 minutes vs. doing nothing?
 
I think the goal is to eat approximately your maintenance calories, on average, each week. A few more calories on days you workout, a few less calories on days you don't. Not sure that being super technical is really necessary. Try it out and see what works for you.
 
Right, but my question is whether "maintenance" is BMR or BMR + exercise.

BIG difference for me, I workout 5 days a week, so that'd be ~6000+ calories difference a week, or a day and a half of eating!

It's not super technical, it's math! If I'm counting calories I want to know what the target is!


But, without knowing any better I'm going to assume "maintenance" is BMR + exercise. My goals are 4400 calories on working days and 2240-2640 on non working days, depending on cardio. Thanks!
 
Milas said:
Right, but my question is whether "maintenance" is BMR or BMR + exercise.

BIG difference for me, I workout 5 days a week, so that'd be ~6000+ calories difference a week, or a day and a half of eating!

It's not super technical, it's math! If I'm counting calories I want to know what the target is!
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How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
 
EasyEJL said:
How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
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Ahhhhhhh, you smart man you!

2825 (BMR) + 900 (exercise) x 5 = 18,625
2825 x 2 = 5,650

18,635 + 5,650 = 24,275 / 7 = 3,470 avg. daily maintenance

Working Days = 3,470 + 20% = 4,164
Non-Working Days = 3,470 - 20% = 2,776
 
Milas said:
Ahhhhhhh, you smart man you!

2825 (BMR) + 900 (exercise) x 5 = 18,625
2825 x 2 = 5,650

18,635 + 5,650 = 24,275 / 7 = 3,470 avg. daily maintenance

Working Days = 3,470 + 20% = 4,164
Non-Working Days = 3,470 - 20% = 2,776
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haha that's one way to do it! If on a lean bulk I think those figures would be great; but for fat loss, I actually liked the way you originally did it just as much especially in comparison to MB's suggestion.

I think cutting calories lower on those off-days could enhance the fat loss properties of IF if that was the primary goal.
 
Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
 
TheLastRonin said:
Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
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How long have you been doing IF?

I'm holding out on my opinion until based on results (other than the huge meals, yum!). So far I haven't noticed incredible "leaning" or "gaining" other than calorie cycling. That may be due to multiple factors and time. It is something to keep you guessing and learning, which is good IMO. However, it'll probably eventually pass as a fad too (not trying to be blasphemous)...
 
Red Dog said:
haha that's one way to do it! If on a lean bulk I think those figures would be great; but for fat loss, I actually liked the way you originally did it just as much especially in comparison to MB's suggestion.

I think cutting calories lower on those off-days could enhance the fat loss properties of IF if that was the primary goal.
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What I'll probably end up doing is shooting for the 4400 calories on working days but then looking at my weekly total calories and then play my off days by ear, based on my totals. I'm more in a lean bulk phase, so extra calories are okay to a degree...
 
TheLastRonin said:
It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).
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Well, the fasting part is what has the largest effect on insulin sensitivity, HDL/LDL levels, and growth hormone release though, but those are also pretty subtle changes that occur over time.

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there are more. I particularly point to Ramadan based studies as its a similar feeding pattern, although a little different. But there are quite a lot of Ramadan based studies with decent amounts of participants available vs there not being many internmittent fasting ones.
 
EasyEJL said:
Well, the fasting part is what has the largest effect on insulin sensitivity, HDL/LDL levels, and growth hormone release though, but those are also pretty subtle changes that occur over time.

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there are more. I particularly point to Ramadan based studies as its a similar feeding pattern, although a little different. But there are quite a lot of Ramadan based studies with decent amounts of participants available vs there not being many internmittent fasting ones.
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I have read all that before. Frankly working out and eating healthy in general increases insulin sensitivity. There are no studies that compare the healthy active bodybuilder that fasts vs one that doesn't and any increases/decreases when pitted against each other. Nor are there any long term studies on this.
I am basing my opinions on my own extensive experimentation with this diet and other similar ones. I have been reading MB's stuff (and other supporters of this style of eating)since its inception as well. It is no better than any other diet unless it works for you and your lifestyle.
 
EasyEJL said:
Well, looks like I'm taking a day off IF, going to Waffle House this morning with my wife.
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Life is meant to be lived. Live it up!
Sik said:
I sound stupid on what i said lol just understand after reading again.

I feel the "pump" that can be from carbs + aminos. But never felt hipoglicemic!

I drink the aminocarb drink then after training the EPIC meal of my dai :)

When i do cardio/other BW exercises i continue the fasting without break it. I only use carb drink during the weight lifting sessions in the afternoon! normally at least 4x per week ;)
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Makes much more sense now thanks!

DreamWeaver said:
Yah you can add in some calorie dense foods, as long as most is good food... have fun...
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Milas said:
Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
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Honestly I just use my average for the week and have been successful. Use the KISS methodology. Part of the point of the Lean Gains diet is to create some simplicity in what has become overly and unnecessarily complicated by supplement companies selling you on the need for 6 meals daily which is very inconvenient.. UNLESS you use their convenient products.
EasyEJL said:
How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
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THIS!!!

TheLastRonin said:
Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
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I do notice more Leaning out effects myself. I also can feel my metabolism shift into overdrive when I eat. I get physically warmer as my body digest the bigger meal. However even MB stated that it does not matter whether you spread it over 6 meals or eat everything in one meal the thermic effect of each energy substrate is constant and will require the same amount of energy to make use of said foods. So 4000 calories of the same ratios will have exactly the same thermic effect. I think there are definitely many who are very well suited to this type of eating. I think it has more to do with a persons hormonal reaction to food than anything else. The Insulin / Glucagon axis, and more importantly a persons insulin sensitivity.

More than anything else as i mentioned above when responding to Milas is that Lean Gains is easier / simpler to follow for me. I get the convenience of 1-3 larger meals depending on how I feel like splitting it up and get to eat a lot more choices of food some that are not considered clean or would never be eaten on a cut. So for me what really makes this better is not just that I do notice more leaning effects from it but that I can enjoy my food more and still get as good or better results than on a strict, boring 5-6 meals a day type of diet that I have drudgingly followed as if taking medicine for years... That and I will definitely follow it longer because it is not as strict. Even doing it as a lifestyle type diet not counting every little thing worked very well for me. There is not I have been restricting myself for 3 months someone let me strap on a feed bag and go to town which leads to a festival of gluttony until I am back to my prior pre-dieted physique and frustrated with myself for slipping from the discipline required to maintain it. I need discipline from 4:30AM until Noon then I can eat good foods. If I want to eat all of it in 1 meal I can and there are no ill effects, if I want to use the full 8 hour window I do that. That is why Lean Gains is my choice and why Martin set out to create it in the first place. He was tired of the dogmatic following of the 6 meal a day regime that required nonstop discipline until you backslid. Wanted something simpler and just as effective if not more so.

If I can follow Intermittent Fasting almost indefinitely due to it's leniency, and can only force myself to eat extremely disciplined for a few months at a time with a traditional approach to dieting then I will make more progress with Lean Gains. Not that I couldn't make the same progress with the traditional approach but I would be less satisfied with my overall situation in general. Always feeling like I was denying myself something I want or crave is not an overly satisfying way to live for me. Before I sacrificed that for the physique and now I do not have to. That is why I love Intermittent Fasting. Not trying to talk anyone into anything as this is just me explaining why I love it and have adopted it.

Another thing to remember is that there is not any requirement for the non training days to be low carb. He has it laid out that way for some people but he also speaks out against ketosis diets and anything that is that severe regarding avoiding any macro-nutrient. If carb sensitive which he expects you to know or discover for yourself yes lower carbs are what you need. Someone who is not carb sensitive could easily be taking in 300-400 grams of carbs on non training day and 500-600 on training days, depending on caloric needs and insulin sensitivity. He recommends lower carbs on non training days but this means lower than training days not lower as in low carb. Ya feel me?

I am carb sensitive so my carb levels are lower 100-150 non training and 200-250 on training days, but that is specific to me. If you can eat a fugton of carbs without any ill effects then by all means rip that sh*t up!!!!
 
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Easy stuff man! I know my activity level and my body type as well as having a slightly slower metabolism than typical so I simply multiply my body weight by 12-13 to include activity.
 
Glad it's working for ya kleen. Like I said diets there are many paths for many individuals. For me the fast part wasn't any different results wise than any other similar diet or cutting program, and I am pretty sure I have ran it longer than anyone on this thread. Maybe not though, I haven't read through every post. I still prefer my own tweaked out diet combination and eating around 5 meals a day.
Most people I see doing diets could likely reach their goals if they just ate cleaner and stuck with it. The main point about any bodybuilding diet or workout plan is sticking to it IMO. You have to experiment to know what works for ya though.
 
MrKleen73 said:
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Easy stuff man! I know my activity level and my body type as well as having a slightly slower metabolism than typical so I simply multiply my body weight by 12-13 to include activity.
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I've never actually figured mine out. Maybe I will do that just to see what I come up with and compare it to what I have guesstimated for so long....
 
I know IF can help me break away from eating every few hours, but I still do that during my 8hr window. I have my lunch at noon, 2 separate snacks at work afterwards, my postworkout shake, and finally my last meal. I like it spread out that way though so its more preference and routine I guess. I have been doing the I/F diet for a little over a week and have seen some leaning out in my midsection and have become very accustomed to this way of eating. I really don't see any reason to go back to eating any other way.
 
I work at 7AM and my last meal of the day is around 8PM. MY breaks at work vary and I want to try this diet, but I am not sure how to go about it. Wake up at 6, Take 10G bcaa and ALCAR with dexaprine and then i usually work from 7am to 4pm so should I not eat that whole time, then hit the gym around 430 and THEN have my first meal post workout around 630? Seems like ill have very little calorie intake, and how could I get my protein in? Is a shake in the morning or throughout the day okay?
 
rojasdave said:
I work at 7AM and my last meal of the day is around 8PM. MY breaks at work vary and I want to try this diet, but I am not sure how to go about it. Wake up at 6, Take 10G bcaa and ALCAR with dexaprine and then i usually work from 7am to 4pm so should I not eat that whole time, then hit the gym around 430 and THEN have my first meal post workout around 630? Seems like ill have very little calorie intake, and how could I get my protein in? Is a shake in the morning or throughout the day okay?
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Eat 20% of daily calories at 1-2PM, shake or otherwise. I personally prefer whole food though, helps with hunger.
 
I'm working so hard at funding my BMR and rmr and counting calories and doing this and that, I hope it pays off
 
Hey just got this email. Thought it would apply:

My mom sent me a text the other day about a study out of the
University of Utah (She's always looking out for me!). Apparently,
according to this study, people who fast one day a month are
40 percent less likely to be diagnosed with clogged arteries than those
who did not regularly fast.

Sounds like great news, especially if you are like me and fast
6 to 8 times per month.

Unfortunately, after looking over the study, I did a google
search to see what the newswires were reporting and found
some very disheartening news bytes.

According to an article I found on Yahoo News, when asked to
comment on the study a doctor from the Mayo
Clinic (who was not involved in the study), stated "Fasting
resets the metabolic rate".

Now I'm not sure what this particular Doc meant by "resets", and he
was probably speaking about long term fasting,
but the author of the article on Yahoo News added these
words after Doc's quote "slowing it down to adjust to
less food and forcing the body to store calories as soon as
people resume eating".
These words cannot possibly be from the Doctor. They just can't
be. There is no way I can accept that a doctor being interviewed
about research would make such an incorrect statement, especially
since it was in reference to a 24 hour fast.

This begs the question, why is the mainstream media so
afraid to tell people to eat less? Why is it that when research
on the benefit of brief periods of fasting comes out, people
have to comment on the dangers of long term chronic fasting.
Instead of just explaining that as little as one 24 hour fast
per month can reduce your chances of being diagnosed with
clogged arteries, they have to start digging to find something,
(completely unrelated to the study), so they can throw some
negative comments into the fray.

If you've read Eat Stop Eat, you know that metabolism does
not decrease during brief fasting. This has been found in lean and
obese people, men and women, adults and children. The research
is really very strong in this area! In fact, evidence suggests that
your metabolism may even go UP during a fast!

I know it will be an up hill battle, but my goal is to make
the use of brief periods of fasting a respected and established
method of weight control...because it is easy and because it
works.
 
yah I signed up for e-mails from this. After I went to the lean gains site. Im looking inot this more later today. Just thought id share
 
LOL. Yeah well Im not into there diet plans. Some info I receive IS useful.

From what I was just reading. I guess Its a mormon practice.

There was actually an article about it in the New York Times last month
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JoHNnyNuTZ said:
LOL. Yeah well Im not into there diet plans. Some info I receive IS useful.

From what I was just reading. I guess Its a mormon practice.

There was actually an article about it in the New York Times last month
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Lots of religions encourage occasional fasting, not just Mormons. People have this strange idea that changes to your body/metabolism are made in incredibly short time periods and it's just not true. Long term habits change your body for good or bad.
 
JohnRock said:
Lots of religions encourage occasional fasting, not just Mormons. People have this strange idea that changes to your body/metabolism are made in incredibly short time periods and it's just not true. Long term habits change your body for good or bad.
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I should have corrected my reply. The study was done on mormons.

But yeah I here ya. Long term change.:veryhappy:
 
mormons do practice fasting. they fast on the first sunday of every month for the first 2 meals and the belief is that the money that would've been spent on those meals will go to help those that are less fortunate. so essentially they fast for 24 hours once a month with dinner the night before being the last meal until dinner the next night. they also fast in times of blessings (i.e. upcoming surgery, onset of severe medical conditions)
 
Hey kleen thanks for the invite. I don't have a ton to add as I didn't read through the thread but Martins system of fasting is fantastic for most people. I only use it while dieting as I have throuble eating enough to bulk in the window. But when cutting it takes away hunger pain and its so much better to feel full a few times a day than not. So I eat 2 big meals when cutting.

Martins info along with Alan aragon and jcd fitness all broke me of the eat clean BS. I love pancakes, fried noodles, ect and work then in my diet year around. Especially after workouts I kill 200+ carbs of pancakes or noodles and a shake.
 
ZamaMan said:
Hey kleen thanks for the invite. I don't have a ton to add as I didn't read through the thread but Martins system of fasting is fantastic for most people. I only use it while dieting as I have throuble eating enough to bulk in the window. But when cutting it takes away hunger pain and its so much better to feel full a few times a day than not. So I eat 2 big meals when cutting.

Martins info along with Alan aragon and jcd fitness all broke me of the eat clean BS. I love pancakes, fried noodles, ect and work then in my diet year around. Especially after workouts I kill 200+ carbs of pancakes or noodles and a shake.
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I agree with you 100%. I fell into the whole idea that you have to eat 6 small clean meals a day when cutting to see results, but IF and Lean Gains has shown that is entirely false. During a traditional cut, I'm hungry the entire day even after a meal, vs. feeling full after breaking my fast on IF and my body adjusts to the fasting period so I don't feel super hungry too. The leniency in the diet is great too. I've dropped 4% BF in a little over a month, and I've enjoyed my share of Pizza and burgers and the like!! :food::burger:

A win win if you ask me! :thumbsup:
 
Any idea on how the shift in ghrelin affects GH pulses? Is it better or worse for GH release?

I was thinking of doing cjc-1295 DAC in the evenings (500mcg EOD) and Ipamorelin (150mcg ED) in the evenings and mornings to take advantage of the fasting times, and get a big GH boost. Thoughts?
 
I'm gonna throw this in on non training days maybe on training days too so i can gradually get myself to 16 hours. I love eating but i'm willing to do what it takes to be more efficient and get better results :D
 
Try Dexaprine from iForce. That knocked my appetite out like nothing else. Transform Burner is another great one for appetite control. ECA also works there too.

Best of luck!
 
Honestly I'm finding the fasting period incredibly easy to get through - except Saturday, I got really nauseous. I won't pass any assessment with the diet so far, but one thing that's for sure is it's helping me lean out. I don't think it has anything to do with fasting as much as it does having all my meals at the end of the day. It allows me to feel full after eating less, so I can have a steeper deficit (on off days) than I usually do without much effort. I'm only somewhat concerned about eating anything in the A.M. the morning after working out (during recovery). I'll wait and see how things go.
 
New article up at LeanGains.com -- Invalid Link Removed

It's mainly a review of recent research regarding the effects of Omega-3s on overall health, body composition, leucine resistance, and muscle protein synthesis -- looks like it might be worth the cash to get a quality EPA/DHA supplement.

Definitely worth a read you guys!
 
Milas said:
Try Dexaprine from iForce. That knocked my appetite out like nothing else. Transform Burner is another great one for appetite control. ECA also works there too.

Best of luck!
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Thanks! I actually didn't think about an appetite suppressor
 
Red Dog said:
New article up at LeanGains.com -- Invalid Link Removed

It's mainly a review of recent research regarding the effects of Omega-3s on overall health, body composition, leucine resistance, and muscle protein synthesis -- looks like it might be worth the cash to get a quality EPA/DHA supplement.

Definitely worth a read you guys!
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Thanks for posting that! A good read for sure! :goodpost:
 
thetinyguy said:
Thanks! I actually didn't think about an appetite suppressor
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Yeah the new iForce product is freaking ridiculous to be honest, never had anything that strong before. On an off day, I could see it pushing your fast up to 2-3 PM before you break it, giving more fat loss. :yup:
 
oufinny said:
Yeah the new iForce product is freaking ridiculous to be honest, never had anything that strong before. On an off day, I could see it pushing your fast up to 2-3 PM before you break it, giving more fat loss. :yup:
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Not to mention the 3,3 and 3,5 T2 in it to keep metabolism stoked!

However, I don't buy the exrta protein synthesis, that's a characteristic of T3, I havne't seen anything supporting the uncoupling proteins in T2 use...
 
houstontexas said:
How do you guys feel about using the I/F way of eating with PH's and/or AAS?
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Good as long as you can get the amount of protein and calories in that you need. Personally, I have no problem busting my calorie target in the 8hrs, but that's just me. I think if you can do that, it would actually be more favorable IMO.

Kleen is running the new Taurus Nutrition Progestin while using IF, so his experience will be telling. I don't know if anyone has tried it honestly...
 
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