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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

I like this style of eating for the life extension and cell sparing effects (could all be mental, but I agree with it). With that said I can eat about 1kg (2.2lbs) of steak in a sitting EASY. So when I need to bulk I can do this quite easily. I've also eaten 4 chicken breasts and 4 cups of rice in one sitting as well. But now i'm on a cut... ; ;

The hunger pains kinda go away and after a while your body kinda figures out how to deal with it. I actually like it. The only problem I have is dosing my multi, Orange Triad. The label says to take it twice a day with meals 12hrs apart... I've actually just cut it down to once a day. I do take in about 2lbs of veggies a day, so hopefully with just half of my multi I'm getting a sufficient amount of vitamins :D?
 
I am sure you are and honestly with that many veggies you probably don't need a multi... I need a multi because I am slightly veggie deficient. I only get in about 2-3 servings a day most days. Some day none and some a lot but really not too much in general.
 
Thanks~! Repped.
I basically eat paleo for the anti inflammatory benefits. I've never responded well to carbs, but meat... meat is like heaven. If japan had grass fed meats... more organic things I'd be in better condition but oh well. haha.
 
kyoryoko said:
Thanks~! Repped.
I basically eat paleo for the anti inflammatory benefits. I've never responded well to carbs, but meat... meat is like heaven. If japan had grass fed meats... more organic things I'd be in better condition but oh well. haha.
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Yeah Paleo is no punk. I like having more freedom in my diet and do lean gains partially for the ability to eat foods I never could on a cut or recomp. I gradually will hone it down farther and farther and will end up almost paleo but it is a process. Or I may just keep on enjoying myself and the benefits I am getting as well as the freedom which to me sounds more appealing since no digestive issues from carbs as of yet.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah Paleo is no punk. I like having more freedom in my diet and do lean gains partially for the ability to eat foods I never could on a cut or recomp. I gradually will hone it down farther and farther and will end up almost paleo but it is a process. Or I may just keep on enjoying myself and the benefits I am getting as well as the freedom which to me sounds more appealing since no digestive issues from carbs as of yet.
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Carbs are too good to for go them, I am pretty much ok with paleo for when you aren't doing something like lean gains, but I would rather have carbs in my life. Yeah, I once said otherwise but not ever touching pizza or pasta, can't do that!
 
oufinny said:
Carbs are too good to for go them, I am pretty much ok with paleo for when you aren't doing something like lean gains, but I would rather have carbs in my life. Yeah, I once said otherwise but not ever touching pizza or pasta, can't do that!
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I too love to touch pizza and pasta.
 
Red Dog said:
I too love to touch pizza and pasta.
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I'm okay with the touching, just not putting it down the hole lol.
Believe me though.. I can get in 10k+ cals eating only meats :D. Lean meat.... maybe not, but a 40oz sirloin steak is easily done for dinner haha.
 
MrKleen73 said:
When did you come off the cycle? You aren't trying to cut weight in PCT or right after are you? If so you will lose some muscle mass. However if not then you should not lose any muscle unless grossly underfeeding yourself.

If just off of PCT or in PCT then go with a recomp strategy. Maintenance calories -20% on non training days and +20% on Weight training days. You will be surprised how well you lean up like that while not losing and often gaining LBM.
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I'm on my last week, so coming off this weekend. Gained 10 lbs while cutting about 2% BF. I ate mostly paleo through the cycle, so I plan on sticking to that and adding some good carbs here at the end and PCT. The +/- 20% sounds like a good idea too.

I am looking to do IF as long as possible and wanted to try it PCT to see how much mass I could actually keep, even if I lose most of what I gained, I'll still be leaner, which is the goal right now. Really want to prove a lot of skeptics wrong about IF causing muscle loss.

Otherwise, it fits my lifestyle and I love to eat a couple big meals instead of 5-6 small meals. Fasted sprints and training has been great, lifts are still going up and the day goes by quickly when I'm not thinking about food. Work flies by, then I workout followed by my reward! Can't beat it.

I'll update on my weight/BF during PCT.
 
Sounds awesome! Yeah I don't think you will lose any muscle mass you weren't going to in the first place. It is really hard to guage tho coming into PCT from a cycle and changing the diet. However DreamWeaver did it and has been dropping weight and recomping very well.
 
a quarter after 11 today and i'm not feeling too bad about the hunger, thank god the adaptation started already
 
MrKleen73 said:
Sounds awesome! Yeah I don't think you will lose any muscle mass you weren't going to in the first place. It is really hard to guage tho coming into PCT from a cycle and changing the diet. However DreamWeaver did it and has been dropping weight and recomping very well.
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Remember though I was on a very mild cycle and was down to about 2000 cals ed on cycle.. Going to an average of 2650 cals ed was a significant increase in intake... plus I did 4 hours per week less cardio. Which makes what happened at first pretty crazy as I dropped about 1.5-2 % in the first 10 days. Now I am gaining size, still in PCT but granted I never felt shut down at all. I feel more on now than I did on cycle. Crap I feel more on and I am 45 minutes from breaking fast... I think the Osta is really kicked in.. and synergistic with my herbal stack of swole plus erase, but lean gains is a big part of the whole picture..
 
EasyEJL said:
a quarter after 11 today and i'm not feeling too bad about the hunger, thank god the adaptation started already
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I've been on LG for a couple more weeks then you (though you're more accustomed to the eating style), and I am just now today not feeling too hungry at 11:30. It has taken me a while to adjust, and I'm not sure if this will last, or if it's because I ate >4K cal yesterday...
 
yeah, for me though it was going the last 5 hours of the day without eating. Particularly on days where I workout from 7-8am its rough to not eat till after 12. But today not bad.
 
Milas said:
I've been on LG for a couple more weeks then you (though you're more accustomed to the eating style), and I am just now today not feeling too hungry at 11:30. It has taken me a while to adjust, and I'm not sure if this will last, or if it's because I ate >4K cal yesterday...
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This is a tough regime for your body type I think, you will probably get hungrier easier.. I don't know what adjustments could be made but yay think bigger eating is a good idea in your case, maybe you will adapt. I think you're the most interesting case study for me. I really don't know how to advise people who have faster metabolic rates...
 
EasyEJL said:
yeah, for me though it was going the last 5 hours of the day without eating. Particularly on days where I workout from 7-8am its rough to not eat till after 12. But today not bad.
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That's the one that's killer for me, the post-workout meal! I'll work out 6AM, be at work 8AM, and have to wait until 12-1PM to eat. BCAA only does so much.

Yesterday was really rough, Deadlifts!!! My stomach was growling, loudly, around 10AM. Not fun waiting it out till 1PM...


BTW, I've been using SizeOn Max in the morning during my "fasted" workouts. I know it's not "fasted" then, but I'm running a log and, well, I love SizeOn Max and have a tub to use! I'm wondering how that all affects the IF portion, since it's 180 calories, 39g carbs and 7g protein. So maybe I'm not getting the full benefits of IF/LG with this setup?

After the log, I was thinking of switching to SizeOn Pre-Contest, that's 50 cal with 10g protein and 2g carbs. Would that work, or do you think I am going to miss the benefits of IF/LG?
 
well, fasted is fasted. 5 calories probably won't reduce the fasting, but i'd have to think that 180 calores would
 
EasyEJL said:
well, fasted is fasted. 5 calories probably won't reduce the fasting, but i'd have to think that 180 calores would
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I'd agree, especially since it contains 39g of fast carbs. I'm just not sure how it affects the rest of the fasting cycle. I'm wondering if I miss out on the goodness of IF completely or just marginally since it should clear my system pretty quickly intra-workout...
 
I would go with marginally, I can tell you for sure that your Size On is what is causing your insatiable hunger after your workouts. Once you complete the bottle you will notice a big difference in you rhunger levels. That is a big insulin spike causing your blood sugar to fluctuate. Then your blood sugar drops and we all know that the muscles WILL NOT release their stores of glycogen for to be used as blood sugar. SO then the body sends a signal to the liver saying HEY, I need some blood sugar. Release it now. BAM another insulin spike, muscles take up that glycogen quickly. Low blood sugar again, body sends liver a message again, release glycogen now. Liver says I just gave you what I have to give, and haven't had any chance to replenish my stores. Sorry no glycogen for you now. Low Blood Sugar causing hunger throughout the rest of the fast... DAMN!!!!

As far as a fast goes some where either on LG site or another IF site was a posting that basically stated that anything under 50 calories should not break the fasting process regarding the hormonal state of fasting. 180 cals and most from carbs is definitely breaking the fast. Insulin levels are what really breaks the fast hormonally. However I honestly doubt you are experiencing much of a disruption, and other than that insulin release causing you excess hunger I don't think you are losing much except a little bit of fat burning ability during the fast.
 
That's a talkative liver I've got! :D


By the way, thanks for the assessment! I figured it was a minimal impact, but wasn't sure. Still not, but I feel better about it at least!
 
Lol, pizza. I eat half a large, meaty pizza (beef, sausage, ham) on a regular basis after a leg workout while dieting. Even then I still wake up the next day as lean or leaner. Not giving that up!

On the subject of IF, just started an IF diet today! Pretty excited. It's nice as it's an off day, so it was easier to calculate my diet for then. It looks like my diet before was set at 3000 cals every day, and that's while I was recomping/cutting (when I'm maintaining or gaining I usually eat 3500-3700). For off days, I'll be eating around 2170 cals, which is a pretty steep deficit I know. But basically I start with a chicken salad, protein shake (46g protein), and natty peanut butter. Next meal will be like a breakfast, with 5 omega3 eggs, turkey sausage, and a big glass of milk (2 cups). Final meal will be grilled salmon, fruit, and cottage cheese (or I may wait on the cottage cheese till 8). I will also drink another protein shake after cardio today (I always lift or do cardio), though it's just an LISS cardio day.

I haven't figured out my diet for workout days ... it looks like it might be a little tough to get in all the protein (350g). I was shooting for a 40/40/20 pro/carb/fat ratio, but I may end up making it more isocaloric instead. We'll see.
 
Milas said:
That's a talkative liver I've got! :D
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I updated that post above not sure if you saw the second part. Yeah your liver is a chatty bastard.
 
Milas said:
I'd agree, especially since it contains 39g of fast carbs. I'm just not sure how it affects the rest of the fasting cycle. I'm wondering if I miss out on the goodness of IF completely or just marginally since it should clear my system pretty quickly intra-workout...
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I agree with Kleen; those carbs could be making you hungry before you otherwise would be, especially given the fact that are essentially simple sugars. 180 calories would definitely disrupt the processes that occur during a fast as well, but if it works for you then it works for you! The hunger issue is most likely related to the carbs though.

I just saw a study a few weeks ago indicated that compared the hunger of individuals eating meals containing either F/P or F/P/C. The group ingesting significant carbs along with fat and protein were consistently hungrier for their next meals in comparison to the the group ingesting only fat and protein.
 
the insulin spikes are pretty obvious.

So dependending in your WO shecdule, i will use or not carbs Pre and intra training.

Even when i'm very low, near 100g carbs i will use 50carbs drink with Leucine + another amino's and sip half the drink before the workout and another half in the middle of it.

Never felt any insulin spikes, even i'm comming from a fasting state.

You will benifit a lot from the fast during the 16h you don't eat nothing + almost 4-6 hours with only one meal based on veggies + fat + protein source.

Even martin, has change a little the idea of trainning only fasted.

If you like fasted training? Wake up every morning and do some Push ups/Dips, Jump Squat / lunges, Pull ups /chins and then go fasted for after and do what you normally do. Or instead alternate between these and some moderate cardio.

This schedule very well for me working out at end of the day. Why? I give a boost that take 10-15 min in the morning, or 45-60 if is cardio day, and then benifit of the carb drink for the weight lifting.

Hope to help with my small feedback ;) Cheers
 
Sik said:
the insulin spikes are pretty obvious.

So dependending in your WO shecdule, i will use or not carbs Pre and intra training.

Even when i'm very low, near 100g carbs i will use 50carbs drink with Leucine + another amino's and sip half the drink before the workout and another half in the middle of it.

Never felt any insulin spikes, even i'm comming from a fasting state.

You will benifit a lot from the fast during the 16h you don't eat nothing + almost 4-6 hours with only one meal based on veggies + fat + protein source.

Even martin, has change a little the idea of trainning only fasted.

If you like fasted training? Wake up every morning and do some Push ups/Dips, Jump Squat / lunges, Pull ups /chins and then go fasted for after and do what you normally do. Or instead alternate between these and some moderate cardio.

This schedule very well for me working out at end of the day. Why? I give a boost that take 10-15 min in the morning, or 45-60 if is cardio day, and then benifit of the carb drink for the weight lifting.

Hope to help with my small feedback ;) Cheers
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When you say you don't feel an insulin spike do you mean you don't get low blood sugar? I have never felt an insulin spike but I have felt the results of one whether that be mymuscle engorged with nutrients or low blood sugar. The low bloog sugar would come into play if coming from a fasted state abruptly into a fed state with the shot of carb then not supplying any further carbs for the body to continue to use from blood sugar. So I have to ask when you say you have those carbs pre and intra are you following training with a feeding or going right back into a fasted state as Milas is?

When you do the calisthenics in the morning do you also have pre and intra then and then fast until your pre workout meal or post workout meal depending on schedule?

Just trying to put all the peices together. :)
 
Also to be fair this is not just a Lean Gain thread but the majority of it is. However other IF protocols like The Warrior Diet for muscle building recommends a small meal post workout if you train in the AM, then wait to eat until later in the evening and have the really big meal. In which case Milas that is an option you could do while still using the Size On. Just add some meat or protein to the consumption of the Size On. With what I know regarding hormones, metabolism and catabolism now I understand that this is not needed but it may help to satiate you while you honor your agreement to run the log.
 
So far so good. Started monday. Its crazy for the first time in my life I GET the idea of food for energy, not just to eat.
 
EasyEJL said:
yeah, for me though it was going the last 5 hours of the day without eating. Particularly on days where I workout from 7-8am its rough to not eat till after 12. But today not bad.
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10g BCAAs and 12oz of water does a world of wonder for this. I mix the 10g with the least amount of water possible (dont like the taste), pound it and then pound the water. It actually makes me feel full within 10 minutes.
 
JoHNnyNuTZ said:
So far so good. Started monday. Its crazy for the first time in my life I GET the idea of food for energy, not just to eat.
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Amen! Now if only I can convince my family and girlfriend of the same thing...

I feel that too many people are addicted to food! They eat food for the taste and pleasure of the food and the act of eating; that is not good! We have taste buds to distinguish which foods are good and which are going to kill us. Dangerous foods in nature are usually bitter and sweet foods are loaded with carbs which we desperately needed in nature before society provided fast food and grocery stores. Same idea with fats; they taste good because our bodies really needed them when we lived in the wild because we never knew when our next meal was and therefore lived off of our fat stores for many hours at a time.

Don't get me wrong though, I love candy. But that doesn't mean I have to eat it more than a once every few weeks (and usually when I'm blazed :bigok:)
 
This diet should be renamed intermittent facestuffing. Good god, and this was a low cals day for me. It might be a little rough tomorrow when I lift to do 3.3k cals in an 8 hour window.
 
So quick question, should I be shooting for 20% above my BMR, or 20% above my maintenance calories (BMR + Exercise)?

Also, should that 20% be of my total (3500, so 700 calories above, total 3200 or 4200 for the day), or my BMR (2500, so 500 above, total 3000 or 4000 for the day) assuming 2500 calorie BMR + 1000 calorie exercise.

What should my total calories be for the day, I'm so confused!!!
 
Torobestia said:
This diet should be renamed intermittent facestuffing. Good god, and this was a low cals day for me. It might be a little rough tomorrow when I lift do 3.3k cals in an 8 hour window.
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It hasn't been too much of a problem for me yet. I consume in excess of 1k-1500 for the first meal and last meal with a smaller 500 Cal or less meal in the middle
 
Easy and fun!
 
raptor20561 said:
Amen! Now if only I can convince my family and girlfriend of the same thing...

Don't get me wrong though, I love candy. But that doesn't mean I have to eat it more than a once every few weeks (and usually when I'm blazed :bigok:)
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Hopefully they'll be willing to listen to you long enough to move past their own preconceptions! :) Nearly everybody who asks me about the way I eat immediately dismisses fasting as unhealthy, harmful, and all other kinds of ridiklus nonsense.

Candy is ****ing delicious! In fact, I've eaten candy (not a lot, but ~75-100 calories worth) on almost every training day for the past several weeks and have consistently made quantifiable progress. How many fat loss diets allow for that kind of ****? Not very many. :)
 
Milas said:
So quick question, should I be shooting for 20% above my BMR, or 20% above my maintenance calories (BMR + Exercise)?

Also, should that 20% be of my total (3500, so 700 calories above, total 3200 or 4200 for the day), or my BMR (2500, so 500 above, total 3000 or 4000 for the day) assuming 2500 calorie BMR + 1000 calorie exercise.

What should my total calories be for the day, I'm so confused!!!
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It's definitely 20% above your maintenance calories (i.e. the number of calories you need to consume in order to maintain your current composition based on calorie expenditure from BMR and activity level).

So, if your BMR is 2500 calories and your activity level requires another 1000 calories then your maintenance intake would be 3500 calories. From here you would calculate the +20%/-20%. Based on a 3500 maintenance intake, it would look like the first calculations you did (although -20% of 3500 is 2800, not 3200 yes?)

Work Days = 4200
Rest Days = 2800

This gives you the extra calories to bulk on training days (lean gains) but the deficit to halt fat accumulation on rest days.

Hope this helps you sir!
 
MrKleen73 said:
When you say you don't feel an insulin spike do you mean you don't get low blood sugar? I have never felt an insulin spike but I have felt the results of one whether that be mymuscle engorged with nutrients or low blood sugar. The low bloog sugar would come into play if coming from a fasted state abruptly into a fed state with the shot of carb then not supplying any further carbs for the body to continue to use from blood sugar. So I have to ask when you say you have those carbs pre and intra are you following training with a feeding or going right back into a fasted state as Milas is?

When you do the calisthenics in the morning do you also have pre and intra then and then fast until your pre workout meal or post workout meal depending on schedule?

Just trying to put all the peices together. :)
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I sound stupid on what i said lol just understand after reading again.

I feel the "pump" that can be from carbs + aminos. But never felt hipoglicemic!

I drink the aminocarb drink then after training the EPIC meal of my dai :)

When i do cardio/other BW exercises i continue the fasting without break it. I only use carb drink during the weight lifting sessions in the afternoon! normally at least 4x per week ;)
 
I like to play with dense food becames easier.

Even i love to eat a lot but sometimes eating 200g of brown rice with 1lb of chicken became hard lol sometimes i add some fat to the meal to bump the calories. The same can be made to the other meals.

Most of the fat i use is EVOO and coconut oil. Not a fan of nuts, and i need to learn how to like the avocado taste :D
 
Sik said:
I like to play with dense food becames easier.

Even i love to eat a lot but sometimes eating 200g of brown rice with 1lb of chicken became hard lol sometimes i add some fat to the meal to bump the calories. The same can be made to the other meals.

Most of the fat i use is EVOO and coconut oil. Not a fan of nuts, and i need to learn how to like the avocado taste :D
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Hek yah playing with the macros and calories is half the fun...
 
Peanut Butter, Full Fat Greek Yogurt, and Ground Buffalo (fairly high fat content) are winners to increase fat cals and they all taste awesome.
 
3 days in and im loving it!

First two days were pretty painful due to fact i ain't used to eat 3000kcals in 8 hours CLEAN. And i did eat that food in 6 hour window both days..

Offday was fine, sweet potato fries, eggs and stuff for 1800kcals were just a joke compared to training day!
 
Red Dog said:
It's definitely 20% above your maintenance calories (i.e. the number of calories you need to consume in order to maintain your current composition based on calorie expenditure from BMR and activity level).

So, if your BMR is 2500 calories and your activity level requires another 1000 calories then your maintenance intake would be 3500 calories. From here you would calculate the +20%/-20%. Based on a 3500 maintenance intake, it would look like the first calculations you did (although -20% of 3500 is 2800, not 3200 yes?)

Work Days = 4200
Rest Days = 2800

This gives you the extra calories to bulk on training days (lean gains) but the deficit to halt fat accumulation on rest days.

Hope this helps you sir!
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Thanks, helps clear it up. I was thinking that was the case, but it just felt too good to be true! I have been eating like a freakin' KING, actually eating too much on some ocassions! Wow, that is even more awesome than I initially thought!

For Rest days though, I don't lift, so have to cut out the Exercise portion and rely on my BMR and if I can get cardio in to let me eat. In this example, I'd be at BMR 2500 + cardio 500 = 3000 - 20% = 2400 total calories. Even worse it drops to 2000 caloris if I don't do cardio. :(

Is it tough for everyone else to keep their calories restricted on off days? I just have the weekends off, but it is hard to turn off the feeding frenzy mode!!!

Last weekend I had go running at 11PM (after running earlier in the day) to make-up for excess calories, and I was still over my restricted goal!
 
Milas said:
Thanks, helps clear it up. I was thinking that was the case, but it just felt too good to be true! I have been eating like a freakin' KING, actually eating too much on some ocassions! Wow, that is even more awesome than I initially thought!

For Rest days though, I don't lift, so have to cut out the Exercise portion and rely on my BMR and if I can get cardio in to let me eat. In this example, I'd be at BMR 2500 + cardio 500 = 3000 - 20% = 2400 total calories. Even worse it drops to 2000 caloris if I don't do cardio. :(

Is it tough for everyone else to keep their calories restricted on off days? I just have the weekends off, but it is hard to turn off the feeding frenzy mode!!!

Last weekend I had go running at 11PM (after running earlier in the day) to make-up for excess calories, and I was still over my restricted goal!
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Yah it's tough sometimes but I know because I work out late afternoon that I will be hungry the next day so I don't have large gap in my calories, it's more like 2400 and 2800, these are recomp numbers for me. If I was going to cut I would remove calories from nwd's if I wanted a lean bulk I would add 300 to wd's...
 
Hmmm... 2400 - 2800 is not much of a swing. I'd think your maintenance would be higher than that, particularly with exercise? But I guess you are efficient...

I'm just surprised that I'm supposed to be at 4.2K cal on working days, and 2K cal on off days! That's more than a 50% swing! I guess that's the point of LeanGains / IF?

This weekend I'm going to try those zero calorie miracle noodles. Anyone try those?
 
I did all the calculations .. to maintain 210 lbs I would have to go 3324 wd and 2216 nwd's based on my activity level that's an average of about 2770 over 2 days, I am more like 2650 over two days and gaining slowly right now. So my metabolism is slow which is no shock to me.. so if I was around 2600 I would probably stabilize... so about 94% of my BMR + Activity is the magic line for me... interesting...
 
Oh and the Ghrelin is kicking my A$$ today! UGH, I'm going to hide for the next 2.25 hrs...
 
Milas said:
Hmmm... 2400 - 2800 is not much of a swing. I'd think your maintenance would be higher than that, particularly with exercise? But I guess you are efficient...

I'm just surprised that I'm supposed to be at 4.2K cal on working days, and 2K cal on off days! That's more than a 50% swing! I guess that's the point of LeanGains / IF?

This weekend I'm going to try those zero calorie miracle noodles. Anyone try those?
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I thnk that when you train plays a big factor as well, you have to listen to your body, this is not cookie cutter.. If you are too hungry on your off days take some from your on days to compensate, this is going to happen if you train later in the day where a lot of the recovery occurs ths next day.
 
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