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KLEEN takes Anabolic Control with Natabolic & SWOLE! + many other goodies.

lol I thought it was single armed.

Get in on it man!

Oh yes!

No, but man can you imagine if those guys were single arming 125 for 22 reps or 150 for 10

I think that Ronnie is using a 70 pounder here. I can beat it with the shitty form he's using!! I hate to say that about Ronnie, but that form leaves a lot to be desired!!

I use a 60 pounder with MUCH better form!!

 
I think that Ronnie is using a 70 pounder here. I can beat it with the shitty form he's using!! I hate to say that about Ronnie, but that form leaves a lot to be desired!!

I use a 60 pounder with MUCH better form!!


Yah you have to wonder how the fug they get away iwith it, if I use ****ty form with too much weight I just get injured and get no gains...:sad3:
 
He is basically doing a sloppy form shoulder press. I have been talking about Ronnie's use of partials for some time now. He ONLY does partials. Well all I have ever seen him do in youtube vids of him working out is always partial reps. Same with a lot of the high reps I see with heavy weight. Guys move the bar maybe 4-6 inches and call it a bench press rep, but they have 3-4 inches left before lockout. I would be counting it would sound like this. One, One, One, One, One, One... are you ever going to do a complete rep???? One, One, One.... Just put the fugging weight up if you can't lift it...

However with that being said, the amount of weight he uses in that short range of motion obviously works for building muscle. That goes to support my Orthopedics statements to me that you only need a fraction of the range of motion to build mass. That all the muscles fire in that short ROM. That only flexibility is increased via extended ROM. He told me I could build my legs going heavy with 2/3 the range of motion and not see any negative effects by using less ROM and that he recommended it for joint health of lifters especially as they got older.
 
Upper Body Madness! 2 PR's today.

Had a very good workout this morning. I managed to do my first run at OH DB Triceps Ext. Not too bad for not having done them in a while.

Upon waking = 1.5 Scoops AS-GT half scoop was taken sublingually, 6 squirts Ghenerate, 2 Natadrol, 14 grams BC/EAA's, 1 LeanXtreme

Intra drink 28 grams BC/EAA/L-Glutamine mix

How it all went down!
Straight Arm Pec Deck - 100x15, 180x12, 220x13>160x5>120x5 The last set of 220 was the whole stack. I can not swear to it but I am pretty damn sure that is a PR!!!!! I don't remember ever getting that many reps with this weight!!!!

Straight Arm Lat Pull Down - 75x12, 105x10, 105x8>75x10>50x10 these were pretty beast mode. Unintentional ab work as well.

Lateral Raise Machine 70x12, 110x10, 130x6>90x4>50x5 130x6 is another PR and this one I am sure about. My shoulders were looking large when I got off of this one.

The following shoulder exercises had no exercise specific "warm up set". Muscles were warm already so we just went directly into the exercises.

DB Front Raise NG - 40x8, 40x6>25x8>15x10 HOLY PUMPS BATMAN!!! I thought my shoulders filled up from the Lateral raises but they just got even bigger after this one.

Rear Delt Machine - 100x12, 120x10>100x6>70x5 These just felt great.

DB Overhead Triceps Ext. - 75x12, 100x10 Felt good will try 110 next time. I didn't want to push the elbow too much it so I just didn't do a second work set here.

All in all this was a great workout. I am going to have to work on those triceps ext if I want to be competitive in the competition. Not that 100x10 is anything to scoff at but it isn't anything to be in awe of either. I used to rep out 15 with a 100 with no problems so I think I can get back to that relatively easily with some more work. We will just see how the elbow holds up to being stressed. In THEORY that movement should not effect the issue much.

I lowered my dose of Lipoburn to 1 squirt per fat pocket under my chest. Using 2 pumps per nipple area was just overkill, I kept ending up having to rub the excess on my abdomen.

PWO Nutrition - Finish intra drink, take Glycobol.
15 minutes later eat
1 cup Fiber One cereal 41 g carbs
2 teaspoons extremely local honey- like out of my wall local!!!!!!
1 cup skim milk
2 scoops Protein powder in water.
after eating took 2 pSARM, 1 AT2, 1.2 gram Cissus

Meal I am about to eat
2 scoop protein powder, 1 oz nuts, 1/2 cup oat meal, 1 medium granny smith apple.

Lunch will be some form of real meat for protein source. I have a meeting tomorrow on my normal lunch date day with the wife so will more than likely go somewhere with her for lunch. More than likely will be 8-10 Oz chicken breast and small bowl of charro beans, or a burrito bowl with extra chicken, black beans, green peppers and lots of hot sauce. If not then I can only assume an 8 oz buffalo burger on wheat bread. Either way all pretty healthy fair.

Recovery! Recovery! Recovery!

Man I am very surprised although I live in DOMsville I must have moved to the outskirts because I only have a fraction of the soreness one would expect from the workout yesterday. No pain at all in my quad or the attached tendon which is really nice! However my quads, groin, glutes hamstrings and calves all have SOME soreness, none of it is ridiculous like I thought it might be. I have a feeling my legs are going to be pretty yoked by the time this is over. Maybe I should take some before pics of them and put em up see if we can notice any difference by the end of this bad boy.
 
Your comments in the first paragraph are what keep my numbers more "pedestrian" compared to many others. I don't move up in weight unless I can do a full ROM and control the weight. My decline/incline/bench are all pretty sorry for someone my weight but I don't ever cheat. Sure you can grow but I want to be able to have flexibility and strength; to each their own I guess. As for Ronnie Coleman, you are right he did move some insane weights even if it was partial reps. I will say that I saw him do some beastly squats in a few videos with 800 pounds and he went all the way down.

He is basically doing a sloppy form shoulder press. I have been talking about Ronnie's use of partials for some time now. He ONLY does partials. Well all I have ever seen him do in youtube vids of him working out is always partial reps. Same with a lot of the high reps I see with heavy weight. Guys move the bar maybe 4-6 inches and call it a bench press rep, but they have 3-4 inches left before lockout. I would be counting it would sound like this. One, One, One, One, One, One... are you ever going to do a complete rep???? One, One, One.... Just put the fugging weight up if you can't lift it...

However with that being said, the amount of weight he uses in that short range of motion obviously works for building muscle. That goes to support my Orthopedics statements to me that you only need a fraction of the range of motion to build mass. That all the muscles fire in that short ROM. That only flexibility is increased via extended ROM. He told me I could build my legs going heavy with 2/3 the range of motion and not see any negative effects by using less ROM and that he recommended it for joint health of lifters especially as they got older.
 
Recovery! Recovery! Recovery!

Man I am very surprised although I live in DOMsville I must have moved to the outskirts because I only have a fraction of the soreness one would expect from the workout yesterday. No pain at all in my quad or the attached tendon which is really nice! However my quads, groin, glutes hamstrings and calves all have SOME soreness, none of it is ridiculous like I thought it might be. I have a feeling my legs are going to be pretty yoked by the time this is over. Maybe I should take some before pics of them and put em up see if we can notice any difference by the end of this bad boy.

I will say that my recovery on Natadrol was flat out retarded. I lived in the adjacent county to DOMSville; it took some EFFORT and extra sets to get me sore. The one thing I did notice was I would get tight in the areas I worked but that went away when I swam the next day. Natadrol is an excellent supplement and reminds me of Prime A LOT in regards to its recovery properties. You're killing it Kleen and I am happy to hear your injuries are on the mend as well. :fing02:
 
He is basically doing a sloppy form shoulder press. I have been talking about Ronnie's use of partials for some time now. He ONLY does partials. Well all I have ever seen him do in youtube vids of him working out is always partial reps. Same with a lot of the high reps I see with heavy weight. Guys move the bar maybe 4-6 inches and call it a bench press rep, but they have 3-4 inches left before lockout. I would be counting it would sound like this. One, One, One, One, One, One... are you ever going to do a complete rep???? One, One, One.... Just put the fugging weight up if you can't lift it...

However with that being said, the amount of weight he uses in that short range of motion obviously works for building muscle. That goes to support my Orthopedics statements to me that you only need a fraction of the range of motion to build mass. That all the muscles fire in that short ROM. That only flexibility is increased via extended ROM. He told me I could build my legs going heavy with 2/3 the range of motion and not see any negative effects by using less ROM and that he recommended it for joint health of lifters especially as they got older.

Well there are ways to enhance the squat to do 2/3 rom and still get as much focus on the quads as full range. You may have to do additional hamstring work however.

Drug users must be taking something else to help with the joints because I I used the kind of form they used, I would spend most of the time on the injured reserve. Doing partials is one thing, but overloading and doing them sloppy is dangerous. There is something sythetic these people are using to prevent them from getting injured.
 
great lifting my friend, and love the comments about Ronnie!!!
110x10 is a great starting point! Time to bring the fire next week!!!
 
Well there are ways to enhance the squat to do 2/3 rom and still get as much focus on the quads as full range. You may have to do additional hamstring work however.

Drug users must be taking something else to help with the joints because I I used the kind of form they used, I would spend most of the time on the injured reserve. Doing partials is one thing, but overloading and doing them sloppy is dangerous. There is something sythetic these people are using to prevent them from getting injured.
Deca is really good for the joints. Massive amounts of Growth Hormone would help out with joint recovery as well.
great lifting my friend, and love the comments about Ronnie!!!
110x10 is a great starting point! Time to bring the fire next week!!!
Well it was 100x10 this week but still not too bad for an opener. Hopefully I can repeat 10 reps next week with 110.
 
Had a very good workout this morning. I managed to do my first run at OH DB Triceps Ext. Not too bad for not having done them in a while.

Upon waking = 1.5 Scoops AS-GT half scoop was taken sublingually, 6 squirts Ghenerate, 2 Natadrol, 14 grams BC/EAA's, 1 LeanXtreme

Intra drink 28 grams BC/EAA/L-Glutamine mix

How it all went down!
Straight Arm Pec Deck - 100x15, 180x12, 220x13>160x5>120x5 The last set of 220 was the whole stack. I can not swear to it but I am pretty damn sure that is a PR!!!!! I don't remember ever getting that many reps with this weight!!!!

Straight Arm Lat Pull Down - 75x12, 105x10, 105x8>75x10>50x10 these were pretty beast mode. Unintentional ab work as well.

Lateral Raise Machine 70x12, 110x10, 130x6>90x4>50x5 130x6 is another PR and this one I am sure about. My shoulders were looking large when I got off of this one.

The following shoulder exercises had no exercise specific "warm up set". Muscles were warm already so we just went directly into the exercises.

DB Front Raise NG - 40x8, 40x6>25x8>15x10 HOLY PUMPS BATMAN!!! I thought my shoulders filled up from the Lateral raises but they just got even bigger after this one.

Rear Delt Machine - 100x12, 120x10>100x6>70x5 These just felt great.

DB Overhead Triceps Ext. - 75x12, 100x10 Felt good will try 110 next time. I didn't want to push the elbow too much it so I just didn't do a second work set here.

All in all this was a great workout. I am going to have to work on those triceps ext if I want to be competitive in the competition. Not that 100x10 is anything to scoff at but it isn't anything to be in awe of either. I used to rep out 15 with a 100 with no problems so I think I can get back to that relatively easily with some more work. We will just see how the elbow holds up to being stressed. In THEORY that movement should not effect the issue much.

I lowered my dose of Lipoburn to 1 squirt per fat pocket under my chest. Using 2 pumps per nipple area was just overkill, I kept ending up having to rub the excess on my abdomen.

PWO Nutrition - Finish intra drink, take Glycobol.
15 minutes later eat
1 cup Fiber One cereal 41 g carbs
2 teaspoons extremely local honey- like out of my wall local!!!!!!
1 cup skim milk
2 scoops Protein powder in water.
after eating took 2 pSARM, 1 AT2, 1.2 gram Cissus

Meal I am about to eat
2 scoop protein powder, 1 oz nuts, 1/2 cup oat meal, 1 medium granny smith apple.

Lunch will be some form of real meat for protein source. I have a meeting tomorrow on my normal lunch date day with the wife so will more than likely go somewhere with her for lunch. More than likely will be 8-10 Oz chicken breast and small bowl of charro beans, or a burrito bowl with extra chicken, black beans, green peppers and lots of hot sauce. If not then I can only assume an 8 oz buffalo burger on wheat bread. Either way all pretty healthy fair.

Recovery! Recovery! Recovery!

Man I am very surprised although I live in DOMsville I must have moved to the outskirts because I only have a fraction of the soreness one would expect from the workout yesterday. No pain at all in my quad or the attached tendon which is really nice! However my quads, groin, glutes hamstrings and calves all have SOME soreness, none of it is ridiculous like I thought it might be. I have a feeling my legs are going to be pretty yoked by the time this is over. Maybe I should take some before pics of them and put em up see if we can notice any difference by the end of this bad boy.



EXCELLENT LIFT!!! Working hard and getting big! Im liking how your post workout nutrition is looking. Hitting the macros from all angles

Looks like your stack is helping you recover faster then you expected
 
Yes the recovery is excellent. Comparable to mega dosing PRIME and Asteroid Stack. Yeah the post workout nutrition is pretty nailed down now I think. Diet is pretty on point. Not perfect but I am not preparing for anything. Since I am still fighting for recovery on this elbow I think I am going to hold off on doing a show until the Spring when I know I can really go at it for a bit and have had time to build my arms back up a little more.
 
Notice anything funny with the libido on the natadrol?

I'm thinking of just doing pink magic/prime now before I go on leave...I definitely do not want libido issues during that time!
 
Notice anything funny with the libido on the natadrol?

I'm thinking of just doing pink magic/prime now before I go on leave...I definitely do not want libido issues during that time!

Not at all and everyone I know of has gotten an increase in libido from Natadrol. Me I am always on the high end of that but it has increased a bit anyway. Are you thinking of Ex-Tightend83? He came out of whatever he was dealing with but I am 99% sure it didn't have anything to do with the Natadrol, or STOKED! He thought it may have been one of those but STOKED! is for sure going to boost libido. Natadrol too really. Not sure why you are worried about it unless it was from XT mentioning he was having an issue but I am sure it was unrelated and he said the libido has more than rebounded due to the STOKED! and Natadrol..
 
I expect some good numbers from you too big man! If not familiar with the lift it will take a time or two then the efficiency of the movement kicks in and you can add 10-15 lbs off of that alone.
 
Not at all and everyone I know of has gotten an increase in libido from Natadrol. Me I am always on the high end of that but it has increased a bit anyway. Are you thinking of Ex-Tightend83? He came out of whatever he was dealing with but I am 99% sure it didn't have anything to do with the Natadrol, or STOKED! He thought it may have been one of those but STOKED! is for sure going to boost libido. Natadrol too really. Not sure why you are worried about it unless it was from XT mentioning he was having an issue but I am sure it was unrelated and he said the libido has more than rebounded due to the STOKED! and Natadrol..

Yeah I remember reading it somewhere, that and it seems like a few people don't see any results from natty until week 4 or 5. Maybe I gotta decide this soon lol, only 3 more days off $$$
 
Time for some footy.. that which is played with a round ball

USA vs England 2.30pm Sat June 12th
1 - 4
 
Bad ass workout Kleen!
 
Yeah I remember reading it somewhere, that and it seems like a few people don't see any results from natty until week 4 or 5. Maybe I gotta decide this soon lol, only 3 more days off $$$

Time for some footy.. that which is played with a round ball

USA vs England 2.30pm Sat June 12th
1 - 4
Go USA!!!! First time in 60 years they have met in the cup.

Pics are up ..

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Man looks like a stud!

Bad ass workout Kleen!
Thanks Punthra!
 
He is I and I am him! What's my Mutha Fuggin name!

What's Crackalackin y'all? I am in a great mood today.



Had a great but very hard workout today. The volume is kicking my ass right now. It will get better but for right now it is whooping my back side on leg days. Let's just get right into the workout.

Leg Press - 4p x14 DD, 6p x14 DD, 12p and a 25 x15, 13p and a 25 x10 - Man the double downs were hard on this exercise. It took mor concentration to remember to push with both or lower with one. I changed it up for the 3rd set as you can see jumped the weight up on that set rather quickly. I think I will keep it to the single joint movements like extensions and curls. I also did more reps than I did last time at this weight. I will say the DD definitely take a lot out of you though.

Dead Lifts - 225x15, 275x10, 275x6 - Well in my current condition 275 was a bit much for 15 reps, if I had started with that weight it wouldn't have been but after wearing my legs down on the leg press it was for sure. Kind of funny thing. I had rumble gut this morning and during my second set I was starting to notice some discomfort. I tried going into my 3rd set and by the time I got to the 6th rep I was attacked by a Prairie Dog. Drop the weight and head for the restroom UGH!! I had at least another 4-5 on this. Oh I was wearing straps to help with my elbow and the grip issue. I may have to look into some good hooks to use. If anyone has had a good experience with some let me know which ones. I tried some valero ones and DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THOSE!

DB Step Ups - 40x15, Grip was causing elbow to hurt a little decided Leg Extensions were in order.

Since I was behind and JoAnn had already moved on to the next exercise I decided to superset my Leg Extensions and Leg Curls.

Leg Ext DD - 145x14, 160x14 - Well I knew my quads were pretty blasted from the Leg Press so I started at 145 instead of 160 thinking 160 may be a bit much. I know now that next time 160 needs to be the starting point for the high reps. I know that doesn't sound like much but keep in mind the negative is basically the equivalent work to that one leg that a 320 lb negative would be to using both legs. OUCH!!!
Seated Leg Curls DD - 100x14, 100x12, 100x10 I knew after the first set I was not going up. Man it was hard, the last set I had to stop for 1 second and then do 1 more stop, one more... for reps 8-10.

I did 3 sets of 25 slow crunches in sauna.

Side Note - My abs are actually a little sore from doing the straight arm pull downs the other day.
 
Inzer won't do you wrong when it comes to wraps. I got busted up knees, but their triple strap knee wraps guard my knees through deads, Oly Snatches & Oly Cleans and the downward velocity in an Oly Snatch by my top heavy arse is serious, high impact on the knees, much worse then deads due to the abruptness of the movement. My knees will still get temporarily sore an hour or so after my lift, but during my workout, any kind of sharp pains are usually taken care of shortly after my warm up. Only those initial 2-3 bends or so, after that, my knee's feel 100% during my lifts.

Granted, I have never tried their elbow sleeves, but based on my experience with their knee sleeves, I'm presuming their elbow sleeves, which are the exact same design, must work rather effectively as well.

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Thanks Dragon!

Volc, Those look pretty cool. May have to save up a lil for them. But thinking the sleeves are probably much better for pushing exercises than pulling right? I notice support from my sleeves when pushing but not much from the pull aspect except extra resistance. Which is why I am thinking hooks may be in order.
 
man Kleen tons of volume on that one!!! great lift though! and I am an APT man myself!!! I think you know why ;)
 
You will either think Nice Abs, or WTF... IS THAT A MAN IN A TUTU!?!?!?

Well guys, I am having a rough time staying motivated fighting these injuries and knowing I don't have a competition looming. However I am very unsatisfied with not having visible abs and obliques. I am thinking of making some "High Stakes" to motivate myself. Here is my HIGH STAKES commitment. Barring if something horrible happens and I can't do cardio...

If I don't have abs, a good set not just a hint of them by September 1, 2010 I am going to take a picture of myself in a tutu and post it up here for everyone to see. Not only will this be a public embarrassment but an expense because you may not believe this but I do not currently own a tutu.

Now I have to be honest I have absolutely no desire to put a picture of myself in a tutu on the web where it can be copied and spread around the world. Much less posted in every log I do from here to the end of days. The fact I have almost decided not to post this a few times today tells you I am serious. My integrity is at stake. I WILL where that tutu if I don't have abs. That is basically going to put me on almost a competition diet to achieve that.

I am currently 200 lbs and not going to estimate BF because it is really hard to tell on me with a lot of my fat being visceral and having extremely lean appendages.

So what do you guys think about that and is there anybody else out there motivated, and brave enough to join me in this? Doesn't have to be the same goal but one appropriate to you and your current level of fitness. This is a test of commitment and self discipline. Hell, I will up the anti. I will also post a video of me in it on youtube and leave it there for at least 1 week!
C'Mon guys any takers, anyone want to force themselves to hit their goals with me? Don't say yes if you will be a coward at the end and not follow through. Doesn't even have to be the same time period or goal. GUT CHECK TIME GENTS!!!

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Sure but I've stopped my cut after 5 months and doing a mini lean bulk

Emmm 2 1/2 months

Bench Press new PR just set 365 x4 how about 450 x 1 ?
 
Holy increases bro I am down is that by Sept or a different date? You have the "supplements" in the xxxxx pills to do it though I think.
 
Holy increases bro I am down is that by Sept or a different date? You have the "supplements" in the xxxxx pills to do it though I think.

I may need a little bit more than that, gonna have to really plan this out.

Ill be having a chat Mr Kabuzki get my bands, chains, shirt, board, AAS and kitchen sink. I see a lot of puking in my futture

Ill assume my subission to the party is acceptable ?
 
lol I hate to say I want you to fail Kleen, but seeing you in a tutu is just tooo much to pass up!!!!
Well ok good luck brotha!!! and may the best tutu... ummmm I mean MAN win!!!
 
I thought that was you in a tutu...

jk man :P

Give me some time and I'll think up a good one to join ya!
 
I may need a little bit more than that, gonna have to really plan this out.

Ill be having a chat Mr Kabuzki get my bands, chains, shirt, board, AAS and kitchen sink. I see a lot of puking in my futture

Ill assume my subission to the party is acceptable ?

Certainly! Well let us know when you decide a date. I plan to have me some decent abs by this time next month, hopefully pretty good by August and Nice Abs on or before the 1st. Tomorrow I will take some pics or something so we can have a visual of where I am now at 200. Well 201. I honestly think I have built some muscle already on the stack. Body weight is consistently going up and I am not much smoother compared to what I have gained. I am actually looking relatively tight for having put on 10 lbs not all of that is muscle for sure and some of the muscle gain would be due to memory. I am sure some of it is water and some is fat.
 
Certainly! Well let us know when you decide a date. I plan to have me some decent abs by this time next month, hopefully pretty good by August and Nice Abs on or before the 1st. Tomorrow I will take some pics or something so we can have a visual of where I am now at 200. Well 201. I honestly think I have built some muscle already on the stack. Body weight is consistently going up and I am not much smoother compared to what I have gained. I am actually looking relatively tight for having put on 10 lbs not all of that is muscle for sure and some of the muscle gain would be due to memory. I am sure some of it is water and some is fat.

Sept 1st I wouldn't have it any other way
 
Ok I got Cris Kabuzki in my camp he putting a training pklan together to me he says this is not gonna be easy,

Don't want easy I want Herculean
 
Seems you set the bar a little loe there my frnd

No matter, long term goal has always been 500lb time to pull out evey weapon in my arsenal and I'm talking the big guns

Chrid is in my corner
 
This would mean a 100lb increaase in 5 months

Holy ****, to late noe the gauntlet is down
 
Man my back traps and hamstrings are a little sore this morning. Feels good not that OMG sore but sore nonetheless. Not so bad for it being the first time to hit the back and traps with some deads in a while. I am waiting for the wife to crawl out of bed and will go to the gym and do some cardio here in a little bit.
 
This would mean a 100lb increaase in 5 months

Holy ****, to late noe the gauntlet is down

Gonna be an amazing thing Ed. Your going HUGE with this. Just insane, with the help you have enlisted I think you can pull it off my friend.
 
Pictures as promised.

These are no pump, 1 meal into the day no activity. 200 Lbs


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You can see the fat pocket under my chest this is the bane of my existence. I can not tell you how much it takes away from my physique unless I am very lean. Were you can see the lip of the pec on others at my fat levels you only see sag near the nipple on me. Oh well at least it isn't actually gyno. The Lipo Burn seems to have tightened the area a bit.

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Standing relaxed. Again you see tht you can not see the cut of the outer part of my pec in this shot. A little loose skin pooling down at bottom of abdomen too but some of it is fat too. :sad3:

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Rear Double Biceps I can't really complain here for not having worked biceps much recently. Lower back is leaner than I expected.

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This on isn't to bad either. But I have some work ahead of me.

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Relaxed arm up not totally relaxed just not letting my abs hang out. If I let em just hang the can look pregnant. I can do back bends still just very flexible in my core.


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The goal in the end is this at a minimum but really shooting for BETTER. Then the goal is to stay around there year round and slowly gain mass.
 
I moved this Personal Challenge to it's own thread and we can update progress there. Come join in if you dare.
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Kleen do you still have that chest shot avatar? You were semi angled and your chest looked like a mountain..I think you were wearing glasses in it...That pic was $$.
 
^ Im with ya on the abs :D Dunno where I'll find a tutu but you never know around here o.O lol

Curious why you haven't posted anything in the tattoo log though ?

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Kleen do you still have that chest shot avatar? You were semi angled and your chest looked like a mountain..I think you were wearing glasses in it...That pic was $$.

Was it one of these

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