Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

[hairygrandpa]

Ummm....if you want to increase recovery; why not use less volume?? It is my opinion (which is meaningless) that you do a lot of work way past the point of stimulating growth. You could probably cut your volume dramatically and you would likely see better gains and not deal with all the extra wear and tear. Again, opinions are like a$$holes.

Not sure what you could take to increase recovery more than what you are already doing - high protein diet (maybe go to 2 g/pound??), plenty of sleep and gear. Anything you can add to that seems like it would be farting in the wind...

You are probably right. Training for me -is like eating Oreo's for you. Once started, I can't stop. Was hoping there is some weird chemical out there , helping with recovery, like : Geturazzupagain-vaginalinhibitory-acid

 

[Hyde]

Magnesium. Most lifters are deficient in it but it does help with both the neural component of strength as well as muscle soreness.

I eat 4-800mg/day of Swanson’s blend. Any more and I start to get the squirts.

 

[JCR97]

Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

Subbed me into this I love the thoughts and ideas being thrown around here here’s one from me what about ephedrine being used on a bulk because of gluconeogenesis it basically acts as a nutrient partitioner so theoretically taken as a pre workout you would burn more fat

 

[JCR97]

You are probably right. Training for me -is like eating Oreo's for you. Once started, I can't stop. Was hoping there is some weird chemical out there , helping with recovery, like : Geturazzupagain-vaginalinhibitory-acid

Looooool vaginasterone

 

[James Tyr]

Back when i was playing Rugby on a high level, the coach owned a health center with a freeze chamber. We would be in there a few minutes then rotate hot tub slowly. Recovery was almost instant

 

[SkRaw85]

Back when i was playing Rugby on a high level, the coach owned a health center with a freeze chamber. We would be in there a few minutes then rotate hot tub slowly. Recovery was almost instant

My gym/hot springs in Montana had an ice bath and a hot pool (104 degrees) right near to each other. You literally roll over a wall to get from one to the other. Those were the best way to recover after a grueling workout. I miss that place

 

[MrKleen73]

Well my version is only $139. Not $600. So that's like 3 bottles of something for a good massager. The long neck handle on mine makes it easy to reach your own back, while being relaxed.

What is this device you speak of for $139? Do you have a link or the name of it?

You are probably right. Training for me -is like eating Oreo's for you. Once started, I can't stop. Was hoping there is some weird chemical out there , helping with recovery, like : Geturazzupagain-vaginalinhibitory-acid

When you say recovery what exactly do you mean by this? Some people mean CNS is fried, some mean muscles stay sore too long, some mean their connective tissue is taking a beating... Which are you referring to specifically?

Magnesium. Most lifters are deficient in it but it does help with both the neural component of strength as well as muscle soreness.

I eat 4-800mg/day of Swanson’s blend. Any more and I start to get the squirts.

I take 1000mg a day that also has a Vit B complex in it, helps alleviate back pumps, cramping, gives better muscle control in general due to helping the CNS. Plus as mentioned it keeps me regular.

Subbed me into this I love the thoughts and ideas being thrown around here here’s one from me what about ephedrine being used on a bulk because of gluconeogenesis it basically acts as a nutrient partitioner so theoretically taken as a pre workout you would burn more fat

Confused by this statement... gluconeogenesis occurs when there is not enough glycogen to fulfill the ATP needs of the working muscle. If you are on a bulk, unless you were bulking Keto you really shouldn't be in a position where gluconeogenisis would happen in a significant amount.

Also how does gluconeogenisis equate to nutrient partitioning? Nutrient partitioning is really simply making sure the food you eat is stored or used in the muscle rather than the fat cells, and is done via resistance training, meal timing, taking supplements that increase insulin sensitivity or taking insulin mimickers. Not just burning burning some tissue other than carbohydrate to create ATP.

Also in that situation it is going to be during anaerobic activity so you are more likely to be breaking down muscle / protein tissue as it is much easier to break down and the process is much faster. Typically the main amino used for this is glutamine. On top of this ephedra is known to increase cortisol levels to break down tissue, hence the increase in Gluconeogenisis. You are trying to build muscle so you will be in a surplus, and a surplus when cortisol levels are high means you are going to actually have quite the opposite effect you are wanting. Cortisol + Insulin + surplus = equals adding more fat to your midsection.

I am not saying you couldn't work around it but it isn't going to set up an ideal situation either.

Back when i was playing Rugby on a high level, the coach owned a health center with a freeze chamber. We would be in there a few minutes then rotate hot tub slowly. Recovery was almost instant

Nice, I made ith through my PL meet prep getting 1-2 cryo chamber treatments a week. Man those chambers are gold! I wish I had one at my house!
hairygrandpa - you have a few choices, eat more food around your heavy training days as well, this would probably make the biggest difference in recovery without changing anything else. If you do not want to eat more then you will need to drop overall volume of work. You are doing a lot more than just feeder workouts, you are doing 2 complete workouts back to back, one with lighter weight, but still digging a whole due to the volume.

You really should go back and look at the feeder set videos from Rich Piana, he suggested 2-3 sets per body part totaling 100-150 reps for that body part and your done with that body part. You have increased blood flow and flooded the muscle with nutrients, it is on to the next body part.

 

[hairygrandpa]

When you say recovery what exactly do you mean by this? Some people mean CNS is fried, some mean muscles stay sore too long, some mean their connective tissue is taking a beating... Which are you referring to specifically?

I take 1000mg a day that also has a Vit B complex in it, helps alleviate back pumps, cramping, gives better muscle control in general due to helping the CNS. Plus as mentioned it keeps me regular.
@hairygrandpa - you have a few choices, eat more food around your heavy training days as well, this would probably make the biggest difference in recovery without changing anything else. If you do not want to eat more then you will need to drop overall volume of work. You are doing a lot more than just feeder workouts, you are doing 2 complete workouts back to back, one with lighter weight, but still digging a whole due to the volume.

You really should go back and look at the feeder set videos from Rich Piana, he suggested 2-3 sets per body part totaling 100-150 reps for that body part and your done with that body part. You have increased blood flow and flooded the muscle with nutrients, it is on to the next body part.

Muscles are aching, not doms but like "gassed out". Taking vit B complex too + 1-2gr Vit c, also magnesium/zink/potassium in my intra shake.
The feeder day I don't force anything, just going through the movements with lower weights, never to failure. More food on the training days could be the solution and I think that is the point! I still train fasted on training days. Gonna drop the intermittent fasting and see how that goes.

Thing is, I really want to get a bit leaner. I'm at 95kg (209 lbs) now. My goal is a somewhat ripped 92kg (202 lbs). Eating more frequently could inflate my damn hip tire again.

 

[MrKleen73]

Muscles are aching, not doms but like "gassed out". Taking vit B complex too + 1-2gr Vit c, also magnesium/zink/potassium in my intra shake.
The feeder day I don't force anything, just going through the movements with lower weights, never to failure. More food on the training days could be the solution and I think that is the point! I still train fasted on training days. Gonna drop the intermittent fasting and see how that goes.

Thing is, I really want to get a bit leaner. I'm at 95kg (209 lbs) now. My goal is a somewhat ripped 92kg (202 lbs). Eating more frequently could inflate my damn hip tire again.

Yeah you never go to failure but you still do a lot of work and a lot of reps. On top of that, you have great strength endurance, shown in your ability to do higher rep heavy weighted pull ups. If you don't think your volume is way high then go look at your last feeder workout that you logged all of the reps and weight on, and figure out the total volume lifted in the workout. Then compare that to the total volume of the strength workout and see if they are anywhere near each other. If so then you are doing too much on the feeder day. On top of that just for grins, add those two together and get yourself an idea of what your total volume is for those body parts over those sessions and you might be shocked.

Honestly if you just go to an 16/8 split with your first meal and hour or two from your session and then an intra drink, but made sure that increasing meals does not increase caloric intake by too much you should do quite well. I would start by just adding say 50-100 grams of carbs to whatever your current training day totals are. That is only an extra 200-400 a day and you will still be in a deficit. I don't really think you will see the hip tire return with that at all.

If you still want to be at the same caloric level then I would recommend dropping fats a little and replacing them with carbs, or both depending on what macros you have a vailable to massage obviously. That way you get a big protein sparing effect, and also force the body to burn some fat since not a ton of dietary fat to leach off of.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Yeah you never go to failure but you still do a lot of work and a lot of reps. On top of that, you have great strength endurance, shown in your ability to do higher rep heavy weighted pull ups. If you don't think your volume is way high then go look at your last feeder workout that you logged all of the reps and weight on, and figure out the total volume lifted in the workout. Then compare that to the total volume of the strength workout and see if they are anywhere near each other. If so then you are doing too much on the feeder day. On top of that just for grins, add those two together and get yourself an idea of what your total volume is for those body parts over those sessions and you might be shocked.

Honestly if you just go to an 16/8 split with your first meal and hour or two from your session and then an intra drink, but made sure that increasing meals does not increase caloric intake by too much you should do quite well. I would start by just adding say 50-100 grams of carbs to whatever your current training day totals are. That is only an extra 200-400 a day and you will still be in a deficit. I don't really think you will see the hip tire return with that at all.

If you still want to be at the same caloric level then I would recommend dropping fats a little and replacing them with carbs, or both depending on what macros you have a vailable to massage obviously. That way you get a big protein sparing effect, and also force the body to burn some fat since not a ton of dietary fat to leach off of.

Interesting thought! Gonna calculate around and change my food intake -trainings volume. Decided to take a day off to reset.

 

[JCR97]

What is this device you speak of for $139? Do you have a link or the name of it?



When you say recovery what exactly do you mean by this? Some people mean CNS is fried, some mean muscles stay sore too long, some mean their connective tissue is taking a beating... Which are you referring to specifically?

I take 1000mg a day that also has a Vit B complex in it, helps alleviate back pumps, cramping, gives better muscle control in general due to helping the CNS. Plus as mentioned it keeps me regular.



Confused by this statement... gluconeogenesis occurs when there is not enough glycogen to fulfill the ATP needs of the working muscle. If you are on a bulk, unless you were bulking Keto you really shouldn't be in a position where gluconeogenisis would happen in a significant amount.

Also how does gluconeogenisis equate to nutrient partitioning? Nutrient partitioning is really simply making sure the food you eat is stored or used in the muscle rather than the fat cells, and is done via resistance training, meal timing, taking supplements that increase insulin sensitivity or taking insulin mimickers. Not just burning burning some tissue other than carbohydrate to create ATP.

Also in that situation it is going to be during anaerobic activity so you are more likely to be breaking down muscle / protein tissue as it is much easier to break down and the process is much faster. Typically the main amino used for this is glutamine. On top of this ephedra is known to increase cortisol levels to break down tissue, hence the increase in Gluconeogenisis. You are trying to build muscle so you will be in a surplus, and a surplus when cortisol levels are high means you are going to actually have quite the opposite effect you are wanting. Cortisol + Insulin + surplus = equals adding more fat to your midsection.

I am not saying you couldn't work around it but it isn't going to set up an ideal situation either.



Nice, I made ith through my PL meet prep getting 1-2 cryo chamber treatments a week. Man those chambers are gold! I wish I had one at my house!
hairygrandpa - you have a few choices, eat more food around your heavy training days as well, this would probably make the biggest difference in recovery without changing anything else. If you do not want to eat more then you will need to drop overall volume of work. You are doing a lot more than just feeder workouts, you are doing 2 complete workouts back to back, one with lighter weight, but still digging a whole due to the volume.

You really should go back and look at the feeder set videos from Rich Piana, he suggested 2-3 sets per body part totaling 100-150 reps for that body part and your done with that body part. You have increased blood flow and flooded the muscle with nutrients, it is on to the next body part.

Thank you for the clarification Mr.Kleen in that case ephedrine is good mostly for energy while on a bulk. I just read that somewhere but from your clarification what you’re saying makes a whole lot of sense

 

[PoSiTiVeFLoW]

What is this device you speak of for $139? Do you have a link or the name of it?

https://www.padousa.com/pado-pure-wave-cm7-body-facial-massager/

 

[HIT4ME]

Interesting thought! Gonna calculate around and change my food intake -trainings volume. Decided to take a day off to reset.

The fact that MrKleen73 and I are both agreeing that you do a lot of work/volume should say something. One of us would take the other side just to argue if it was at all defensible. See my signature quote.

I think, along the lines that MrKleen is saying, that more food may make a difference. On the other hand, eating more will only compensate for so much.

One of the things that impresses me about you is your long-term dedication and consistency. On the other hand, this is kind of the downside to your KAPrice slow boat to China approach. You are not shredding and you are not bulking. You are trying to do a little of both and you won't do either very well in that situation. You have done tremendous with it - over time - but if you want to speed it up you are gonna have to pick a path.

Also, as Kleen says, your feeder workouts (and main workouts too IMO) are too long. The idea is to feed nutrients into the muscle. At some number of sets you are going to burn more energy than you are providing to the muscle, even at low intensity.

The idea of a main workout is to stimulate muscle growth and not dig the hole so big doing so that you cannot recover. The more volume you do, the bigger the hole, the longer you need to recover between workouts, the fewer workouts you can do in a given time period. Once you stimulate growth, you should stop. Every set beyond that is a point of diminishing returns. It burns energy that has to be replaced before you can grow and extends the cycle.

Same with feeders. Your goal here is to get a pump and stop as soon as you do. If you continue to work, even at a low intensity, you will burn up the nutrients you are trying to supply for growth. Pump and stop.

 

[BEAST73]

Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

Computers need Rebooting,so do Humans..

 

[JCR97]

Intra workout carbs with bcaas (1hr+ workout) what are your thoughts?

 

[MrKleen73]

Intra workout carbs with bcaas (1hr+ workout) what are your thoughts?

For a better hit you would want some EAA's in there, the other aminos are also very important for growth, or even some hydrolized whey but that stuff is bitter as fug! A nice 4:1:1 BCAA with a serving of EAA's and some HBCD or Vitargo would be the shiz!

 

[Chados]

Interesting thought! Gonna calculate around and change my food intake -trainings volume. Decided to take a day off to reset.

I think you'd look even bigger with a cut. You definitely built up the size and often people are scared to look smaller but I don't think that would be the case.

 

[MrKleen73]

I think you'd look even bigger with a cut. You definitely built up the size and often people are scared to look smaller but I don't think that would be the case.

No, I mean he might have to buy a smaller shirt but the he will look much bigger and more muscular once he is in a shirt that fits. Then when it is off holy crap look at that beast!!!

 

[JCR97]

For a better hit you would want some EAA's in there, the other aminos are also very important for growth, or even some hydrolized whey but that stuff is bitter as fug! A nice 4:1:1 BCAA with a serving of EAA's and some HBCD or Vitargo would be the shiz!

Def going to do that thanks again love this thread it’s a gold mine haha

 

[HIT4ME]

For a better hit you would want some EAA's in there, the other aminos are also very important for growth, or even some hydrolized whey but that stuff is bitter as fug! A nice 4:1:1 BCAA with a serving of EAA's and some HBCD or Vitargo would be the shiz!

I pretty much agree with this. Hydrolyzed whey or Peptopro can be good...but geez if either doesn't taste like a burnt tire or worse. I had one of those customized protein blends made once and used 10 or 15% Peptopro in it....even at that the stuff tasted and smelled like I had thrown up. And if you left the shaker cup unwashed for even a few hours, the cup would smell for months after. No amount of scrubbing would fix it.

Off topic tip - there is a "Large" shaker cup out now. The Pro45. Yup, it's 45 oz. I drink a lot and this cup is awesome. Even when I don't have to mix stuff, I just drink normal drinks out of it. And it's EASY to get your whole arm in there to scrub it clean. My hand won't fit in most normal shakers unless I really squeeze...

I also believe that there are two considerations with the BCAA/EAA mix - one is the potential avoidance of muscle breakdown during training; but the other is that the leucine will spike MPS - and this plays well into having a post-workout meal with plenty of protein. It's kind of like starter fluid for that meal. I don't want to be like the "Post workout protonz" guy....I think way too much is given to "nutrient timing" but I'm not saying it doesn't have a place once the big picture is in check.

 

[JCR97]

I pretty much agree with this. Hydrolyzed whey or Peptopro can be good...but geez if either doesn't taste like a burnt tire or worse. I had one of those customized protein blends made once and used 10 or 15% Peptopro in it....even at that the stuff tasted and smelled like I had thrown up. And if you left the shaker cup unwashed for even a few hours, the cup would smell for months after. No amount of scrubbing would fix it.

Off topic tip - there is a "Large" shaker cup out now. The Pro45. Yup, it's 45 oz. I drink a lot and this cup is awesome. Even when I don't have to mix stuff, I just drink normal drinks out of it. And it's EASY to get your whole arm in there to scrub it clean. My hand won't fit in most normal shakers unless I really squeeze...

I also believe that there are two considerations with the BCAA/EAA mix - one is the potential avoidance of muscle breakdown during training; but the other is that the leucine will spike MPS - and this plays well into having a post-workout meal with plenty of protein. It's kind of like starter fluid for that meal. I don't want to be like the "Post workout protonz" guy....I think way too much is given to "nutrient timing" but I'm not saying it doesn't have a place once the big picture is in check.

By spiking mps is your post workout meal going to be digested in time for you to actually take advantage of mps

 

[Hyde]

Def going to do that thanks again love this thread it’s a gold mine haha

I train first thing within an hour of actually waking with no time to digest solids.

After a pint of water, I have been doing a shake of ~55g each of an isolate/whey blend & powdered oat/pea/potato starch prior to driving to gym.

Intra I consume another 60-90g carbs from primarily dextrose over the next couple hours. Any carb powder you feel good on will work. This drink also has ~15g EAAs in it, plus as much sodium, potassium, & creatine & taurine I feel I need to stay hydrated with 50-60oz water.

I usually do some whey and yogurt after training because I’m not hungry, but any lower fat meal would work here.

Making sure I have ample aminos and carbs present in my blood pre and intra has made a world of difference in recovery, and it puts a good 1,000 calories of my day close to where my body can really utilize it. John Meadows knows a thing or two.

 

[MrKleen73]

I pretty much agree with this. Hydrolyzed whey or Peptopro can be good...but geez if either doesn't taste like a burnt tire or worse. I had one of those customized protein blends made once and used 10 or 15% Peptopro in it....even at that the stuff tasted and smelled like I had thrown up. And if you left the shaker cup unwashed for even a few hours, the cup would smell for months after. No amount of scrubbing would fix it.

Off topic tip - there is a "Large" shaker cup out now. The Pro45. Yup, it's 45 oz. I drink a lot and this cup is awesome. Even when I don't have to mix stuff, I just drink normal drinks out of it. And it's EASY to get your whole arm in there to scrub it clean. My hand won't fit in most normal shakers unless I really squeeze...

I also believe that there are two considerations with the BCAA/EAA mix - one is the potential avoidance of muscle breakdown during training; but the other is that the leucine will spike MPS - and this plays well into having a post-workout meal with plenty of protein. It's kind of like starter fluid for that meal. I don't want to be like the "Post workout protonz" guy....I think way too much is given to "nutrient timing" but I'm not saying it doesn't have a place once the big picture is in check.

1 . Yeah, if you want to do hydrolized i recommend getting the highest level of hydrolization you can then just putting 15g worth in a few Oz of water or other drink and shoot that crap like medicine.

2. Oh man, gonna have to look that up. I use a half gallon igloo cooler when i want more than 32oz. Otherwise I have learned that those 32oz rubbermade water bottles from the grocery store work really well especially if you happen to have some blender balls lying around to drop in them for shaking the protein up. I can get 3 of those for like 11 bucks and they have a little finger holder thing to make them really easy to carry too. However I think I will have to look into this as well but the rubbermade are BPA free and are a good cheap option for 32oz.

3. The considerations you mention make sense, although they are also basically the same consideration. However more of the anabolic process is effected with the inclusion of the other essential aminos, but yes you still want that luecine for the anabolic reaction it causes via insulin release, and MPS. Although keep in mind that the leucine can't really get into the muscle cell unless there is enough L-Glutamine as they trade places. So to increase MPS as high as possible you would want to add in glutamine. Preferably before the workout so it has time to make it into the muscle a bit to facilitate the exchange of glutamine and leucine in the muscle cell.

As far as nutrient timing, it is going to be the biggest tweakable factor in your nutrition other than calories in VS calories out. Bottom line is that there really isn't a time when your muscles are more receptive to nutrient intake than after an explosive lifting session. Being able to control where things are stored to a pretty decent degree is about as good as it gets and also allows people with poor insulin sensitivity to take in carbohydrate without as much worry of inducing fat storage. There is just too much proven science as well as anecdotal evidence to back these theories up.

That being said, 90% of your results are going to be based off of calories in VS calories out. THen other tweaks might get you another 1% here and there, but nutrient timing would be the one things out of that available 10% that would actually provide another 2-3% in my opinion. That actually probably correlates to what you are thinking as well because I think most people seem to think tweaks like macros, meal timing and what not are a good size chunk of what helps with progress. Like some probably think it is 70% energy balance 10% meal timing , 10% macros, and 10% a mix of other stuff, but not so. It isn't anywhere near as important as people give it credit for. However it is probably the 2nd most important concept in that paradigm.

 

[BOSSMAN]

^^^Slow day today at work....BOSSMAN is soaking it alllllllllllll in....some smart cookies up in here

 

[Chados]

No, I mean he might have to buy a smaller shirt but the he will look much bigger and more muscular once he is in a shirt that fits. Then when it is off holy crap look at that beast!!!

Tell him I recommend muscle tee from Abercrombie and Fitch haha

 

[HIT4ME]

By spiking mps is your post workout meal going to be digested in time for you to actually take advantage of mps

That's a good question - but of course if you're taking it intra, it isn't like you've got a defined MINUTE that the spike starts. Most people drink it throughout their workout, which in itself may not necessarily be ideal, but I think it's based on trade offs. But you are probably getting 4-5 grams of leucine over maybe an hour, and that may digest quickly but it won't digest instantly either. Then if you eat a high protein meal or a shake soon after, you should still be within that window and you will have the protein in your blood to use during the MPS phase. But more importantly, this gets back to Kleen's suggestion of the EAAs - the key is to have things to build with once you've spiked MPS.

You could think of it in reverse as well - you take your leucine and EAA's and those digest quickly, but your MPS doesn't just drop the instant you stop drinking it....giving additional protein over the next couple hours will help support the full cycle. If you really want to nit-pick then this is likely a benefit of whey or hydrolysates - they will get in their more quickly.

But I'm not saying you need to go nuts either...if your protein throughout the day is adequate, this will just be a small push in the momentum of your overall good habits.

1 . Yeah, if you want to do hydrolized i recommend getting the highest level of hydrolization you can then just putting 15g worth in a few Oz of water or other drink and shoot that crap like medicine.

2. Oh man, gonna have to look that up. I use a half gallon igloo cooler when i want more than 32oz. Otherwise I have learned that those 32oz rubbermade water bottles from the grocery store work really well especially if you happen to have some blender balls lying around to drop in them for shaking the protein up. I can get 3 of those for like 11 bucks and they have a little finger holder thing to make them really easy to carry too. However I think I will have to look into this as well but the rubbermade are BPA free and are a good cheap option for 32oz.

3. The considerations you mention make sense, although they are also basically the same consideration. However more of the anabolic process is effected with the inclusion of the other essential aminos, but yes you still want that luecine for the anabolic reaction it causes via insulin release, and MPS. Although keep in mind that the leucine can't really get into the muscle cell unless there is enough L-Glutamine as they trade places. So to increase MPS as high as possible you would want to add in glutamine. Preferably before the workout so it has time to make it into the muscle a bit to facilitate the exchange of glutamine and leucine in the muscle cell.

As far as nutrient timing, it is going to be the biggest tweakable factor in your nutrition other than calories in VS calories out. Bottom line is that there really isn't a time when your muscles are more receptive to nutrient intake than after an explosive lifting session. Being able to control where things are stored to a pretty decent degree is about as good as it gets and also allows people with poor insulin sensitivity to take in carbohydrate without as much worry of inducing fat storage. There is just too much proven science as well as anecdotal evidence to back these theories up.

That being said, 90% of your results are going to be based off of calories in VS calories out. THen other tweaks might get you another 1% here and there, but nutrient timing would be the one things out of that available 10% that would actually provide another 2-3% in my opinion. That actually probably correlates to what you are thinking as well because I think most people seem to think tweaks like macros, meal timing and what not are a good size chunk of what helps with progress. Like some probably think it is 70% energy balance 10% meal timing , 10% macros, and 10% a mix of other stuff, but not so. It isn't anywhere near as important as people give it credit for. However it is probably the 2nd most important concept in that paradigm.

I'm picking up what you're putting down. I usually say that the biggest things in a diet are calories and protein. If you have those two things worked out, you've got enough to make good progress. The rest is details. And in this case, what I think we are both getting to is that if your daily habits overall create a situation where protein is available for most of the times you need it; you're pretty well set. The timing thing, if you want to put a number on it, is in the range of what you're getting at - I'd say 2-5%. But to your point, yeah, maybe it is the one item in that 10% that can have the most impact.

And yeah, the considerations are both a quarter; heads and tails. But ultimately the same thing.

And now I have to look up the drinking devices you mention. Most cups are 16 oz. and that really does very little for me. If I hadn't tested my blood sugar (I rarely hit 120 even after heavy meals with desserts) I would wonder if I was diabetic with the way I drink, but I've always been like that.

Tell him I recommend muscle tee from Abercrombie and Fitch haha

Good point. This would probably increase his recovery by at least 5%!!! (j/k - I know what you meant)

 

[JCR97]

Mannnnnn you guys are awesome no need to google sh1t just come here I got tonnes of questions

 

[JCR97]

Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

What do you guys think about carbohydrate absorption? Do you think there is a maximum amount of carbs you can consume in one given meal or do you think it’s over the course of a day? For maximum nutrient timing. If you don’t understand my question let me know I’ll clarify.

 

[MrKleen73]

Here is the link, I think I got the 3 pack for 11:99 or something, they also have the generic brand of the same thing but these are nice. You can't get your and in them but I use one of those cup washers for them anyway so not an issue.

https://www.kroger.com/p/rubbermaid-chug-bottle/0007169142904#

 

[MrKleen73]

What do you guys think about carbohydrate absorption? Do you think there is a maximum amount of carbs you can consume in one given meal or do you think it’s over the course of a day? For maximum nutrient timing. If you don’t understand my question let me know I’ll clarify.

I think it is very individual and has a lot to do with the previous nutrient state. Your LBM is going to have a huge effect on how much you can store as glycogen, then on top of that you have to consider how much glycogen is already in the muscles. Even if you have a lot of LBM id you are pretty much full up on glycogen in the muscles then even a small amount of carbs could cause fat storage. The conversion that turns carbs into fat for storage is not even signaled until maximum glycogen retention has been met in the muscles. That does not mean you can not store fat until then! It means you will not convert glucose to lipids for storage, if you increase insulin while you have a lot of saturated fats floating around in your blood then yes you are VERY likely to store some of that fat as fat.

If you want to learn a good bit about how the body processes a lot of these things read Carb Back Loading. he goes very deep into the science of things and you will either decide it is over your head, or you will walk away with a lot more scientific knowledge about nutrition and its effects on your body.

Not saying do it, or that it is the best diet, it works and is definitely effective but like all things it has it's drawbacks and benefits. However the science behind it is legit as all get out and can help you understand how what you eat, and when you eat it can effect the body.

Anyway before I got sidetracked... I was going to say that he has a formula he uses to get you pretty close to what your personal max for carb intake is before spilling over. You basically weigh yourself, then go full on Keto for 10 days, and weigh yourself again, and then plug that into the formula and it tells you about how many grams of carbs is going to be ideal for you within his set up.

Basically it uses how much you lose and figures in that every gram of carbs pulls in 3 grams of water with it so figuring out the difference in weight allows him to figure out how many carbs you had to burn off to be fully depleted, and that is your max. There is more to it but you would have to read the book. It is just way to detailed to try to explain. Check it out though. Even if you don't do the diet what you can learn about nutrition can teach you a lot about how to look at or tweak your own eating styles.

 

[jrock645]

Im gonna look into that...

 

[Rocket3015]

There is a lot of Knowledge here !!

 

[HIT4ME]

Mannnnnn you guys are awesome no need to google sh1t just come here I got tonnes of questions

Lol, if you think Kleen is dropping info now....try challenging his stance. Poke the bear. Haha.

What do you guys think about carbohydrate absorption? Do you think there is a maximum amount of carbs you can consume in one given meal or do you think it’s over the course of a day? For maximum nutrient timing. If you don’t understand my question let me know I’ll clarify.

I would say you can absorb an almost unlimited amount, digestively, but can you effectively utilize it?

You can only put so much glucose into your muscles for storage and you don't want elevated blood levels, but you can keep absorbing it almost without limit. You will just get fat and eventually have glucose tolerance issues and insulin resistance and all those problems.

Maybe I don't really understand your question, but MrKleen has pretty much laid out a lot of the paths you have to increasing the usage - increase muscle mass, take carbs post-exercise habitually (the Glut-4 translocation will force carbs into muscle more easily), etc.

I would also suggest that excessive limitation of carbs will create a lot of the issues that high carb environments create and hurt your ability to utilize carbs, which will mean your muscles don't burn the carbs as readily, and thus they stay more full of glycogen even through exercise...ultimately reducing the number of carbs you can handle. I honestly think this is a big reason people believe they see such "rebound" after a diet of any sort. MrKleen and I don't agree on this fully, and I don't think I have ever seen anyone lay it out the way I have been thinking of it lately, maybe because I am wrong.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Chest

Mainly machines, doing unilateral pushes, then cables and some elevated push ups.

 

[JCR97]

Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

I think it is very individual and has a lot to do with the previous nutrient state. Your LBM is going to have a huge effect on how much you can store as glycogen, then on top of that you have to consider how much glycogen is already in the muscles. Even if you have a lot of LBM id you are pretty much full up on glycogen in the muscles then even a small amount of carbs could cause fat storage. The conversion that turns carbs into fat for storage is not even signaled until maximum glycogen retention has been met in the muscles. That does not mean you can not store fat until then! It means you will not convert glucose to lipids for storage, if you increase insulin while you have a lot of saturated fats floating around in your blood then yes you are VERY likely to store some of that fat as fat.

If you want to learn a good bit about how the body processes a lot of these things read Carb Back Loading. he goes very deep into the science of things and you will either decide it is over your head, or you will walk away with a lot more scientific knowledge about nutrition and its effects on your body.

Not saying do it, or that it is the best diet, it works and is definitely effective but like all things it has it's drawbacks and benefits. However the science behind it is legit as all get out and can help you understand how what you eat, and when you eat it can effect the body.

Anyway before I got sidetracked... I was going to say that he has a formula he uses to get you pretty close to what your personal max for carb intake is before spilling over. You basically weigh yourself, then go full on Keto for 10 days, and weigh yourself again, and then plug that into the formula and it tells you about how many grams of carbs is going to be ideal for you within his set up.

Basically it uses how much you lose and figures in that every gram of carbs pulls in 3 grams of water with it so figuring out the difference in weight allows him to figure out how many carbs you had to burn off to be fully depleted, and that is your max. There is more to it but you would have to read the book. It is just way to detailed to try to explain. Check it out though. Even if you don't do the diet what you can learn about nutrition can teach you a lot about how to look at or tweak your own eating styles.

Thanks again dr.kleen! I’ve heard of the concept of carb backloading where you only eat carbs after your workout. I haven’t seen it in depth but I have an e reader and I’ll def purchase the book and start reading. Got another question for you seeings how your muscles are most receptive to nutrients 24h after exercise what are your thoughts on active recovery? As in cardio and abs and stretching? Is it optimal only for a cut, a bulk or both?

 

[JCR97]

One more question what about feeder workouts more so as in workouts for stubborn muscles like calves how should they be trained

 

[Hyde]

Unusual training approach: "EOD feeder exercises for ALL muscles"

One more question what about feeder workouts more so as in workouts for stubborn muscles like calves how should they be trained

Calves are pretty genetic - beyond a basic training response, I’ve never seen someone make a night and day transformation that had bad calves to start.

There’s a story about Greg Panora (all-time world record holder in multiple raw and equipped powerlifts) from his time at Westside Barbell. Louie Simmons, his coach, comes up to him one day and tells him he needs to start doing all this dedicated daily calf work. For months Greg slaves away like a madman, doing an hour of calves a day, til finally one day he tells Louie he hasn’t seen his squat go up at all, who replies, “It’s not to help your squat - your calves are just an embarrassment to Westside!”

 

[Rocket3015]

Calves are pretty genetic - beyond a basic training response, I’ve never seen someone make a night and day transformation that had bad calves to start.

There’s a story about Greg Panora (all-time world record holder in multiple raw and equipped powerlifts) from his time at Westside Barbell. Louie Simmons, his coach, comes up to him one day and tells him he needs to start doing all this dedicated daily calf work. For months Greg slaves away like a madman, doing an hour of calves a day, til finally one day he tells Louie he hasn’t seen his squat go up at all, who replies, “It’s not to help your squat - your calves are just an embarrassment to Westside!”

Great Story !!

 

[JCR97]

Calves are pretty genetic - beyond a basic training response, I’ve never seen someone make a night and day transformation that had bad calves to start.

There’s a story about Greg Panora (all-time world record holder in multiple raw and equipped powerlifts) from his time at Westside Barbell. Louie Simmons, his coach, comes up to him one day and tells him he needs to start doing all this dedicated daily calf work. For months Greg slaves away like a madman, doing an hour of calves a day, til finally one day he tells Louie he hasn’t seen his squat go up at all, who replies, “It’s not to help your squat - your calves are just an embarrassment to Westside!”

Damn not looking too good for me but even if I can get them maxed out to their potential I’ll be happy and I’m after the chase for that particular sort of training.

 

[MrKleen73]

Lol, if you think Kleen is dropping info now....try challenging his stance. Poke the bear. Haha.



I would say you can absorb an almost unlimited amount, digestively, but can you effectively utilize it?

You can only put so much glucose into your muscles for storage and you don't want elevated blood levels, but you can keep absorbing it almost without limit. You will just get fat and eventually have glucose tolerance issues and insulin resistance and all those problems.

Maybe I don't really understand your question, but MrKleen has pretty much laid out a lot of the paths you have to increasing the usage - increase muscle mass, take carbs post-exercise habitually (the Glut-4 translocation will force carbs into muscle more easily), etc.

I would also suggest that excessive limitation of carbs will create a lot of the issues that high carb environments create and hurt your ability to utilize carbs, which will mean your muscles don't burn the carbs as readily, and thus they stay more full of glycogen even through exercise...ultimately reducing the number of carbs you can handle. I honestly think this is a big reason people believe they see such "rebound" after a diet of any sort. MrKleen and I don't agree on this fully, and I don't think I have ever seen anyone lay it out the way I have been thinking of it lately, maybe because I am wrong.

We agree on a lot of that, but not 100%. Definitely a short period of no carbs will increase insulin sensitivity, but after long enough without them the body turns of the creation of the enzymes and what not needed to process carbs. So upon returning to carb intake after a long period without them you not be efficient at processing carbs. WHILE you are readjusting, your ability to burn carbs for energy is limited. So the body stores the glycogen in the muscle but it is not being used for energy and therefore is not depleting. Once the stores are full and the body needs to store the carbs somewhere it will convert them to fat.

HOWEVER, where we differ is that when we discussed this you spoke as if that was the end and now we were no longer efficient with carbs and insulin sensitivity is now lower. Therefor not ideal.

For me that is also true but it only takes about week in general for the enzymes and what not to get back to normal production levels. There are simple things you can do to help ensure a smoother transition...

+ Introduce the carbs in a reasonable manner, You do not want to overwhelm your impaired ability to process carbs in the beginning. Reasonable / gradual introduction rather than just blasting into it allows your body to signal for the production of the enzymes and what not. Doing so gradually will help make sure you are able to process them properly while still adapting.

+ Avoid a caloric surplus during that period - If you avoid a a high carb level, and a caloric surplus during this period, storing fat is very unlikely, and the glycogen stored in the muscle will stay burned off at a slower pace due to lack of enzymes but the calories from it are held hostage, so even more fat is having to be burned for energy during that transition.


+ Incorporate a lot of explosiveness, and speed into your resistance training - Explosive resistance training, sprinting, and other explosive movements increase the amount of Glut4 is activated and brought to the surface of the muscle cells. This will increase insulin sensitivity by a great margin during that time.

I think where we differed was in my assessment that after a short period of adaptation the ability to process carbs will return, but having not been exposed to high levels of insulin in a while with all the other gears in place you should most likely have better insulin sensitivity, and increased ability to burn fat for energy than when you started the keto diet in the first place. I don't think you had come to a different conclusion so much as perhaps has not gone so far as to think about the adaptation back to being efficient at carb processing.

Thanks again dr.kleen! I’ve heard of the concept of carb backloading where you only eat carbs after your workout. I haven’t seen it in depth but I have an e reader and I’ll def purchase the book and start reading. Got another question for you seeings how your muscles are most receptive to nutrients 24h after exercise what are your thoughts on active recovery? As in cardio and abs and stretching? Is it optimal only for a cut, a bulk or both?

I would say active recovery is good for any time in general. Anything that increases blood flow to a trained muscle is going to improve recovery so long as it is not intense enough, or long enough in duration to dig a whole in the recovery ability. Being in a fed state while doing so is even more beneficial. When you have nutrient dense blood and increase circulation you feed the muscle while also clearing out metabolic garbage, and toxins from the muscle cells. Both are vital to recovery.

I would just apply the laws of specificity here. What are your training goals, if you have something specific then you should probably be working toward that with your active recovery too. You want bigger muscle then maybe a feeder set, you really trying to increase strength or speed, then add in explosive lifting, or some sort of "jump training or plyometrics". If just trying to increase overall bloodflow while trying to lean out then a walk, or some LISS cardio.

Of course playing any game or activity comes in with this, and those have benefits but also remember if you have a hobby that is intense, say you play basketball for 2 hours twice a week... Well you probably don't need any more cardio in your life if you goal is to get bigger.

One more question what about feeder workouts more so as in workouts for stubborn muscles like calves how should they be trained

That one just really depends... like Hyde mentioned a lot of that is going to be genetic. Some people seem to respond better to daily training, some to once a week... Some don't respond to training at all other than to get stronger but no change in size or shape. I would try hitting them 3 times a week with decent volume over the course of the week.

The best results I have really heard people talk about though are with John Meadows style calve training. IE... supersetting your calves with the tibialis anterior. Something about that superset worked really well for him and some others I know have put on about 1/2-3/4 inch over time with that method. It is far from a magic bullet, but seems to have the best actual results out of the stuff I have recommended to others. I have great calves and get asked all the time what I do for them. My answer is "Walk... I walk on them and they look like diamonds!" So I started looking into calve training long ago so I could at least have something to offer up.

Damn not looking too good for me but even if I can get them maxed out to their potential I’ll be happy and I’m after the chase for that particular sort of training.

The good news is that even in competition bad calves isn't going to hurt you much. It is kind of a given that they are a genetic limitation, and unless in upper level physique shows they aren't going to be the problem you think. Now of course if you are dead even with someone and they have better calves, then you will probably place lower than them. I wouldn't place too much importance on them otherwise. If they are strong enough for you to sprint then they are doing their job well.

 

[MrKleen73]

I was going to edit to add in that if interested in a keto style diet, that a Cyclical Ketosis Diet avoids all of that nonsense. There is not really any reason to stay in strict keto, a carb refeed every few days to a week will keep you pretty efficient in both, IE the ideal goal of having metabolic flexibilty!

I try to maintain my metabolic flexibility by avoiding carbs in the AM, and keeping them in the mid afternoon on, or at least go with lower carb fruits in the morning. When you start your day with heavier carbs you tell your body to get into a storage mode, and the body remembers how much insulin it needed for that first meal of the day and that sets the tone for how it will respond to every other feeding through out the day. It is a matter of nutrient timing and hormonal response.

Now if trying to gain, and training in the AM I will have a good bit of carbs to set the tone for an insulin inducing anabolic day. If recomping or cutting then I tend to keep carbs lower in the AM even when training. Not non existent if training but 1/4-1/2 the carbs I would if growth was the focus.

 

[jrock645]

Read the carb backloading book. He specifically calls out HIT as being incompatible with the approach. Bummer.

Was an interesting read though. Reminded me of the warrior diet but much more specific and not so hypothetical.

 

[HIT4ME]

We agree on a lot of that, but not 100%. Definitely a short period of no carbs will increase insulin sensitivity, but after long enough without them the body turns of the creation of the enzymes and what not needed to process carbs. So upon returning to carb intake after a long period without them you not be efficient at processing carbs. WHILE you are readjusting, your ability to burn carbs for energy is limited. So the body stores the glycogen in the muscle but it is not being used for energy and therefore is not depleting. Once the stores are full and the body needs to store the carbs somewhere it will convert them to fat.

HOWEVER, where we differ is that when we discussed this you spoke as if that was the end and now we were no longer efficient with carbs and insulin sensitivity is now lower. Therefor not ideal.

For me that is also true but it only takes about week in general for the enzymes and what not to get back to normal production levels. There are simple things you can do to help ensure a smoother transition...

+ Introduce the carbs in a reasonable manner, You do not want to overwhelm your impaired ability to process carbs in the beginning. Reasonable / gradual introduction rather than just blasting into it allows your body to signal for the production of the enzymes and what not. Doing so gradually will help make sure you are able to process them properly while still adapting.

+ Avoid a caloric surplus during that period - If you avoid a a high carb level, and a caloric surplus during this period, storing fat is very unlikely, and the glycogen stored in the muscle will stay burned off at a slower pace due to lack of enzymes but the calories from it are held hostage, so even more fat is having to be burned for energy during that transition.


+ Incorporate a lot of explosiveness, and speed into your resistance training - Explosive resistance training, sprinting, and other explosive movements increase the amount of Glut4 is activated and brought to the surface of the muscle cells. This will increase insulin sensitivity by a great margin during that time.

I think where we differed was in my assessment that after a short period of adaptation the ability to process carbs will return, but having not been exposed to high levels of insulin in a while with all the other gears in place you should most likely have better insulin sensitivity, and increased ability to burn fat for energy than when you started the keto diet in the first place. I don't think you had come to a different conclusion so much as perhaps has not gone so far as to think about the adaptation back to being efficient at carb processing.

I think we are pretty close and I agree that the body adjusts pretty darned well. But maybe another way of my explaining my thoughts are along the lines of obesity as a situation vs. Obesity as a pathology.

If you are reasonably healthy and just have fat to lose, your body can swap back and forth. Actually, that is necessary for my view of obesity as a pathology. If you are metabolically flexible, you will be able to burn fats or carbs effectively. Obese people lose their flexibility. They become too good at burning fat and suck at burning carbs...and because they have elevated levels of fat at all times, they have too much PDK to be able to switch back to effective carb burning.

But high carb, high fat diets and low carb diets, or any caloric deficit lends itself to the same pathology that impairs metabolic flexibility. It seems paradoxical at first, but it makes sense once you see how it works.

Also, don't read me wrong. Low carb has its place. Actually, my thinking may be that the healthiest way to fix the situation if you have been obese for a while, may actually be to low carb until you are extremely lean and then start reducing fat intake slowly until you are eating very little fat, and as you said slowly add in the carbs.

The real trick is to eliminate your supply of fat, in order to fire up carb burning, which is near impossible when you have fat stores on your body.

The idea that obese people have impaired metabolic flexibility is well known. And the idea that any form of dieting/starvation impairs this flexibility is unquestionable. And low carb diets simulate starvation by triggering the same switch to fat burning that starvation causes.

If you think of what sources of fuel each situation has, it makes sense. Fat people always have an abundance of fat, so they burn it very well. Starving people have no source of energy other than fat, so they burn it very well.

On the other hand...you and I will go round and round over 1% difference in theory.

 

[Chados]

I was going to edit to add in that if interested in a keto style diet, that a Cyclical Ketosis Diet avoids all of that nonsense. There is not really any reason to stay in strict keto, a carb refeed every few days to a week will keep you pretty efficient in both, IE the ideal goal of having metabolic flexibilty!

I try to maintain my metabolic flexibility by avoiding carbs in the AM, and keeping them in the mid afternoon on, or at least go with lower carb fruits in the morning. When you start your day with heavier carbs you tell your body to get into a storage mode, and the body remembers how much insulin it needed for that first meal of the day and that sets the tone for how it will respond to every other feeding through out the day. It is a matter of nutrient timing and hormonal response.

Now if trying to gain, and training in the AM I will have a good bit of carbs to set the tone for an insulin inducing anabolic day. If recomping or cutting then I tend to keep carbs lower in the AM even when training. Not non existent if training but 1/4-1/2 the carbs I would if growth was the focus.

Yeah this is pretty much what I always do. And I agree that keto is a bit too much. Either carb up one day or eat little carbs before workout and right after and not much at the AM.

 

[MrKleen73]

I think we are pretty close and I agree that the body adjusts pretty darned well. But maybe another way of my explaining my thoughts are along the lines of obesity as a situation vs. Obesity as a pathology.

If you are reasonably healthy and just have fat to lose, your body can swap back and forth. Actually, that is necessary for my view of obesity as a pathology. If you are metabolically flexible, you will be able to burn fats or carbs effectively. Obese people lose their flexibility. They become too good at burning fat and suck at burning carbs...and because they have elevated levels of fat at all times, they have too much PDK to be able to switch back to effective carb burning.

But high carb, high fat diets and low carb diets, or any caloric deficit lends itself to the same pathology that impairs metabolic flexibility. It seems paradoxical at first, but it makes sense once you see how it works.

Also, don't read me wrong. Low carb has its place. Actually, my thinking may be that the healthiest way to fix the situation if you have been obese for a while, may actually be to low carb until you are extremely lean and then start reducing fat intake slowly until you are eating very little fat, and as you said slowly add in the carbs.

The real trick is to eliminate your supply of fat, in order to fire up carb burning, which is near impossible when you have fat stores on your body.

The idea that obese people have impaired metabolic flexibility is well known. And the idea that any form of dieting/starvation impairs this flexibility is unquestionable. And low carb diets simulate starvation by triggering the same switch to fat burning that starvation causes.

If you think of what sources of fuel each situation has, it makes sense. Fat people always have an abundance of fat, so they burn it very well. Starving people have no source of energy other than fat, so they burn it very well.

On the other hand...you and I will go round and round over 1% difference in theory.

I see you are coming around to my way of thinking regarding how to bring it back into balance... :cheers::cheers::cheers: Of course this is a tried and true method for increasing insulin sensitivity that has been in use for decades. Not something I came up with.

So long as we see things on a slider rather than an on and off switch it all works! Far too many times people see that something is an antagonist of something else and think okay when this is present that can not take action. It gets way to over simplified in most peoples minds when they learn the concepts. Similar to how you mention above that you must eliminate the fat supply, you do not have to eliminate the fat supply. YOu have to change the balance of the energy supplied to more carbohydrate, there will be an adjustment period where the body sees less fat being supplied and sees more carbs so it increases the things needed to get energy from the carbs, it also slows down production of PDK so the slider begins to move...
There is no question that during that transition things will not be optimal, but so long as a persons energy pathways have not been completely broken they will adjust over time.

By the way, I am typically speaking of how a body is meant to respond, not how it might behave if illness or broken pathology were the cause of the issue. So all of my statements assume a person is not suffering from an actual disease or condition that does not allow correction simply by manipulating the variables and feedback loops over time.

 

[HIT4ME]

I see you are coming around to my way of thinking regarding how to bring it back into balance... :cheers::cheers::cheers: Of course this is a tried and true method for increasing insulin sensitivity that has been in use for decades. Not something I came up with.

So long as we see things on a slider rather than an on and off switch it all works! Far too many times people see that something is an antagonist of something else and think okay when this is present that can not take action. It gets way to over simplified in most peoples minds when they learn the concepts. Similar to how you mention above that you must eliminate the fat supply, you do not have to eliminate the fat supply. YOu have to change the balance of the energy supplied to more carbohydrate, there will be an adjustment period where the body sees less fat being supplied and sees more carbs so it increases the things needed to get energy from the carbs, it also slows down production of PDK so the slider begins to move...
There is no question that during that transition things will not be optimal, but so long as a persons energy pathways have not been completely broken they will adjust over time.

By the way, I am typically speaking of how a body is meant to respond, not how it might behave if illness or broken pathology were the cause of the issue. So all of my statements assume a person is not suffering from an actual disease or condition that does not allow correction simply by manipulating the variables and feedback loops over time.

This is where we are like 99.95% on the same page all the time, and we realize we are 99% together, but that 0.95% we also kind of agree on but we can't get it all on the same page. Part of it is, over the internet it can be hard to be flexible situationally. I might be thinking of and explaining one thing and you would understand it, but you have another situation in your head and it can be hard to realize those distinctions.

I always agreed it is a mixture/slider - but the issue is that obesity itself can become a disease and it isn't so simple as the body responding to increased carb intake and decreasing PDC production. What happens is, you over express PDK at some point, and this really blunts the ability of carbs to be utilized to the point where they must be stored as fat because the cells will almost always be backed up. PDK becomes so elevated, and as long as you have fat in your system, you will become so fat adapted that you can eat carbs all you want and it will just be stored as fat; it won't upregulate the PDC as it should.

Honestly, this process (coupled with the fact that carbs have a less efficient mass/energy ratio) is really the only logical reason to have refeeds, etc. and it explains why so many people experience a one step back, two steps forward result from refeeds, etc. It also explains why refeeds become more important as you get leaner - the system is just not effective when you have high levels of FFA.

Unfortunately, it also creates a lot of concerns around long-term low carb dieting that most people will never be aware of. It is a tool and it has its place, but I wouldn't do it forever....not than many people actually do. The failure rate on low carb diets, long term, is higher than the internet would have most people believe.

 

[HIT4ME]

Oh - and also - one thing to note: You said one way to bring it back into balance is to avoid a caloric surplus.

At first pass, I would disagree with this - only because I had in my head dieting and was thinking you were saying, "Stay in a deficit" and any deficit will skew PDK production....and then I realized it is my mistake because you only said "surplus" so - maintenance is on the table and I concur. I would even allow for a small deficit, at least in my thinking as it is today, but striving for something at or close to maintenance.

 

[MrKleen73]

This is where we are like 99.95% on the same page all the time, and we realize we are 99% together, but that 0.95% we also kind of agree on but we can't get it all on the same page. Part of it is, over the internet it can be hard to be flexible situationally. I might be thinking of and explaining one thing and you would understand it, but you have another situation in your head and it can be hard to realize those distinctions.

I always agreed it is a mixture/slider - but the issue is that obesity itself can become a disease and it isn't so simple as the body responding to increased carb intake and decreasing PDC production. What happens is, you over express PDK at some point, and this really blunts the ability of carbs to be utilized to the point where they must be stored as fat because the cells will almost always be backed up. PDK becomes so elevated, and as long as you have fat in your system, you will become so fat adapted that you can eat carbs all you want and it will just be stored as fat; it won't upregulate the PDC as it should.

Honestly, this process (coupled with the fact that carbs have a less efficient mass/energy ratio) is really the only logical reason to have refeeds, etc. and it explains why so many people experience a one step back, two steps forward result from refeeds, etc. It also explains why refeeds become more important as you get leaner - the system is just not effective when you have high levels of FFA.

Unfortunately, it also creates a lot of concerns around long-term low carb dieting that most people will never be aware of. It is a tool and it has its place, but I wouldn't do it forever....not than many people actually do. The failure rate on low carb diets, long term, is higher than the internet would have most people believe.

This is a part of where we disconnect. Obesity is not a disease. It can be the result of a disease, or disorder, but it is simply a state of being. You are either overweight to the point of being obese, or you are not. It is a simple state of being. There are entirely too many individual factors that go into obesity to try to make the generalization that the result is the actual disease. In this case you are speaking of chronically elevated PDK as the cause you are focusing on but then generalizing that is how state obesity itself can be a disease. Obesity isn't the reason it is the result.

Also keep in mind that I closed my post expressing that I am speaking of "healthy subjects" who have imbalanced their energy pathways to the point of being extremely inefficient. IE have created a disorder. Not a person with a disease or condition preventing their body from adapting as it should naturally. When you begin to talk about someone who's body can not recognize the change in fuel sources and make adjustments then you are now talking about an actual illness or condition. Which basically means you are talking about apples while I am talking about oranges...

 

[HIT4ME]

This is a part of where we disconnect. Obesity is not a disease. It can be the result of a disease, or disorder, but it is simply a state of being. You are either overweight to the point of being obese, or you are not. It is a simple state of being. There are entirely too many individual factors that go into obesity to try to make the generalization that the result is the actual disease. In this case you are speaking of chronically elevated PDK as the cause you are focusing on but then generalizing that is how state obesity itself can be a disease. Obesity isn't the reason it is the result.

Also keep in mind that I closed my post expressing that I am speaking of "healthy subjects" who have imbalanced their energy pathways to the point of being extremely inefficient. IE have created a disorder. Not a person with a disease or condition preventing their body from adapting as it should naturally. When you begin to talk about someone who's body can not recognize the change in fuel sources and make adjustments then you are now talking about an actual illness or condition. Which basically means you are talking about apples while I am talking about oranges...

Yeah. Except obesity is absolutely a disease. And further to the point, just the act of being obese triggers pathologies for other diseases.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Sorry for my absence, RL trouble. Training was not going as planned lately, had unexpected off days in between. Tried to compensate, doing feeder workouts on regular workout days. Currently on track again.

Seeing some changes in the mirror now. Noted that the feeder workouts (how I did them) did NOT help with recovery -switching to more "flimsy" feeder workouts, meaning really only moving muscles -not stressing them, also incorporating stretches.