I normally eat only one meal a day for about 6 month now. Nothing all day but water or black coffee, then training at night fasted -after that eating a huge meal in a 3 hours window.
Oh okay, the mention of snickers was for someone who was trying to get carbs in preworkout without worrying about a massive sugar crash. It has enough sugar in it to get into the blood stream quickly but the additional fat helps to keep some of the sugars trickling in longer, and especially long enough for your intra drink to start absorbing. Another benefit of it is the added sodium, which really helps with the pumps as well. It might have been in this thread we talked about that because I think we were discussing it in here with HGP when he first started this log. When training for performance I definitely notice a bit better performance, and stamina with the addition of it 15 minutes before starting my warmup, then starting to sip on my intra drink during the warmup.
Well each training session is going to handle a different piece of the puzzle, in this method you are hitting hard intensity of the heavier days, and there will be muscle damage from this day as well as other hypertrophy signalers depending on the training methods applied. This signals for repair and super-compensation, depending on loads it could be more muscle fiber based, or sarcoplasmic based growth. More than likely a combination of the 2. About 4 hours post workout your Protein Synthesis is at it's peak then gradually drops back down over the next 24-36 hours. That's the first half of it.
Then we are adding in the feeder sets the following day, the key with the feeder sets is that you MUST be in a fed state for them to be considered a feeder set. Otherwise it is just a high rep set, and is not effectively shuttling a ton of nutrients into the muscle with the pump. Empty blood can not feed the muscle. This is why the insistence on carbs, and either aminos or a little whey isolate during or before the workout to make sure your blood is full of anabolic nutrients.
There are multiple goals for this particular workout. One being the actual feeding and increased circulation to the recovering muscle, second increasing overall volume of work, 3rd creating another surge of protein synthesis. All of these will greatly assist in recovery and super-compensation.
Now on top of this you do not want to create muscle damage during this workout. You are not trying to tear the muscle down at all with the second workout. You are trying to stimulate anabolic activity to drive hypertrophy. Most of which will be sarcoplasm based, IE... increased sarcoplasm, and mitochondria, possibly increased number of nuclei.
One of the things to pay attention to on the Pump / Feeder day is tempo. You do not want to use any slow tempo work. Slow tempo work creates a lot of muscle damage, especially in the eccentric portion of the lift. Also lifting slowly does not bring the Glut 4 translocators to the surface of the muscle fiber like faster more explosive reps does, as a matter of fact they slightly lower insulin sensitivity when slow tempos are used for a majority of the lifts. So for the feeder days you want to workout with lighter weight, with more of a piston like tempo, this brings Glut 4 to the surface vastly increasing insulin sensitivity. This is important when the workout is called a feeder set. You want to do whatever you can to get nutrition into the muscle, so you want the insulin sensitivity being increased by your tempo, and not the other way around.
So in a nutshell... I know too late... I am a verbose mo fo!
Load focus day = 1-12 reps - Create muscle damage causing growth of the actual muscle fibers. As well as some sarcoplasmic growth from work in the higher end of that rep range. Could also use tempo work / negatives here to help create muscle damage as well as increase GH output.
Feeder Day - Stimulate another surge in protein synthesis, increase nutrient uptake into recovering muscles to allow for more recovery including increasing the thickness of the muscle fiber from the damage the day before. Also stimulating the need for more sarcoplasmic growth due to the very high reps making the muscle need more mitochondria and nuclei. This adds a good bit of volume to the muscle and is the quickest and most noticeable form of hypertrophy. A high volume of work drives this type of growth. So you just want to stimulate that without causing any further mechanical damage to the muscle so you are not creating more need for recovery, but improving recovery while also adding in MORE growth stimulus.
Oh yeah I am at 207 right now @ 5'8", been on the injured list for the last several months though. Have a boot on my foot, and both of my labrum are ridiculously inflammed or tore again one or the other. So working through that right now. Not in the shape I would like to be but not too far out either. Nowhere like your condition though. How much are you weighing and how tall?
Not too sure we would be able to iron out the science of it, would take a body of people doing both to get a legitimate cross section of average results of the two methods to compare to see which one worked "best".
I would not be surprised if you started something like that with a couple warm up sets, and 1 working set to about an RPE8 on the chosen movement for that body part, but doing a slightly different exercise every load focused day or rotating through 2-3 movements for the body part would be a great start, then you could bump up to an RPE8.5-9 the following week, then perhaps drop back down to an RPE8 the following week but increase work sets to 2, then the following week go back up to an RPE8.5-9, the week after that drop back down to an RPE8, and add the 3rd work set, then finally increase to RPE9 the week after that, then take a deload.
That drives the progressive overload, then the following day you just eat to get the blood full of nutrients then do lots of fun pump work, avoiding failure, or negatives using as many different angles of attack as you want.
Haha, look at the bolded sentence in the part you quoted... I think it was you who missed something.You missed my post about feeder days. I eat several meals on feeder days to make sure muscles are fed.Intermittent fasting on regular workout days only. Today at night is my back-feeder workout, now sitting at work with an whey shake, bananas and some grilled chicken + potatoes.
Eating greens... does Heineken count?
Oh, and It sure as hell should!!!
If trying to edit a quote you will want to leave the Brackets around the persons ID and the post number, it will be in this format
[ quote=screenname;123456] then the part of the post you want to be in the quote box, then [ /quote]
I added a space after the first bracket of opening pair of brackets, and then another space after the opening bracket in the closing pair of brackets so you could see what it should look like without it actually trying to quote anything.
I think I answered above regarding the importance of eating before a feeder workout, if that doesn't answer the question let me know.
Haha right? Starting to think his IQ is sky-high. It's like talking to a scientist.
Yes, unbelievable! I'm more the "give me the conclusion" guy, the "why?" I skip normally.
Right.. Granted this is our second language but we can't even blame it on that since we're both fluent haha. I'm really intrigued trying the feeder now, make sure you do measurements and update the progress. I worked out arms 2 or 3 times recently with lighter weights each time. I then went back to normal routine for a week and then back again. I swear I've been on gear and I just don't grow as much anymore but my arms grew 1cm last cycle. Wether it's diet or the workouts I don't know.
Thanks HGP, that really means a lot!
Wow, quite the compliment, thank you!!!!
Would you believe I am actually a high school drop out?
Look being a man of action is just as good as being intellectual and even better in a lot of cases. You are an executioner, and I am a researcher and planner. I would often like to analyze less and do more.
I wish we were on the metric system, why we are still on the imperial I have no idea but i get annoyed having to do conversions all the time.
Keep in mind: I don't do the "feeder" in a traditional sense, like a zillion reps with low weight. We could call it a "blood flow focused workout". That nails it. Going through the motions until I perceive a pump, with moderate-low weights, just pumping with strict form and with a smile on my face -no sweat broken. That's how I do it.
You know I just saw a video how people stay poor or rich depending on their parents regardless of IQ. Apparently we chose a path between age 1 and 7 without knowing it. I'm sure you had your reason, regardless of job or lifestyle it doesn't always justify how smart a person is. It's quite clear to us that think we know quite a lot in this area that we're being outshined haha.
That definitely sounds like a safer approach to not overtrain. Rich Piana talked about something crazy like 100 reps *3. Well we will definitely see how this works. I guess I'll try the traditional then just to get two different takes. Honestly your idea sounds pretty damn good too, there's no way you're gonna work out too much that way.
Just the fact you'd walk around pumped 7 days of the week makes it worth it haha. Never this feeling of feeling flat.
Great stuff, MrKleen73!
Oh man, I have really been looking into all of that with the theta state of mind and EpiGenetics lately, stuff is very interesting. You can apparently induce a theta state and learn how to reprogram some of those things you learned in the first 7 years.
With the 100 reps x3 he is not just doing a feeder set but inducing cell swelling as well. Typically when you can't do rom anymore with cell swelling you just continue and keep the tension on the muscle for the rom you can move it until you hit your reps. The weight is much lighter for those than your typical pump set.
Oh sure expect the ADHD guy to be organized too... LMAO
Yeah mind boggling but it all makes sense. Just really inspirational looking at certain videos to hear something you'd never expect. I got told I should skip classes in school cause I did so good without paying any attention. I've always been appreciated by the teachers even though i was annoying as hell and I didn't end up doing that good in school because I didn't care, it was alright but not anything I'd hang on top of the Christmas tree lol.
Yeah, that was my first thought - but doing occluded feeder workouts could kind of create a situation where the muscle is starved and then the blood and nutrients come flooding into the muscle rapidly right after. Kind of like priming the fire...Not sure it would work, just thinking of angles.
What would occluded mean in regards to this?
I am thinking basic occlusion/feeder - limit the blood supply and do a pump workout with some volume and very low intensity to basically create a demand for blood that can't be supplied, then remove the bands and let the blood flow in.
another one that should write a book haha.. You mean like isolated training? That does work good in my opinion but put too much strain as a feeder I assume.
lol - between me and Mrkleen73, we basically know everything there is to know. The trick is to know which one of us is right
LOL - isn't the idea of the feeders to help recovery?
Got you.. That's interesting I must say. Yeah you two are typing like scientists haha. I'd just say you tie something around a muscle to stop blood flow and get more muscles cause of no blood flow.. Okey I overdid it a little but stilllol - between me and Mrkleen73, we basically know everything there is to know. The trick is to know which one of us is right
Occlussion training is where you wrap a band around a muscle to limit blood flow to the muscle while you train it, which keeps the metabolic waste in the muscle, building it up, etc. because the blood cannot remove it.
I'm thinking building those metabolites up and then letting the blood flow in to flush it out will kind of prime/feed. It would have to be pretty low intensity, as HGP is describing. But I'm also wondering if reperfusion would create additional stimulus as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfe_j0tT92U
It's almost like a myth in the bodybuilding world.. Nobody really knows if it builds muscle cause nobody ever try pretty much. All YouTube videos had positive results tho.. which is either a lie or Just crazy but I don't see why they would lie on smaller channels that has nothing to do with selling products, training etc.
I did this today - be strong and smart! Ended up fighting through on the flat bench work after 9 million warmups and stretches but really had to pull back after that. 4x8 on Db Incline became 3x12 slow and steady with too light weight, on a lower incline, with neoprene elbow sleeves. Also dropped a couple sets of pec flyes - forearms and biceps and shoulders all felt like they were going to tear at various points lol. Even pull-ups were killing me!
Yes.... I thought so. Maybe my frail, hairy body needs some time to get used to it...
Will do chest rigorously but not trying any PR. Body is signaling he needs fugging rest. Will do like you did, TUT with moderate/heavy weight. If it feels too heavy, I will bash it into submission with volume. Tomorrow its chest AGAIN -but fluffy, dammit .
Occlusion training is for puzzies...lol - between me and Mrkleen73, we basically know everything there is to know. The trick is to know which one of us is right
Occlussion training is where you wrap a band around a muscle to limit blood flow to the muscle while you train it, which keeps the metabolic waste in the muscle, building it up, etc. because the blood cannot remove it.
I'm thinking building those metabolites up and then letting the blood flow in to flush it out will kind of prime/feed. It would have to be pretty low intensity, as HGP is describing. But I'm also wondering if reperfusion would create additional stimulus as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfe_j0tT92U
That is awesome, and i can tell that you are big on helping people from your posts. That must have been a very cool experience to have her reach out to you like that. As for the cell swelling I will discuss at the end of the post.
All good points, will discuss more below.
This would definitely work in the manner that you discuss here.and I thought of that when i came up with how to integrate them a bit in that last post. Addressing below...
Oh yay, I get to play some more...
What, put the ibuprofen down Sir. Why even go to the gym if you are going to shortcircuit the inflammation process that stimulates the repair of the muscle? Just go do it without. You will loosen up, otherwise do some stretching and call it a day.
If you know us well figuring out who is right is as easy as reading my screen name.lol - between me and Mrkleen73, we basically know everything there is to know. The trick is to know which one of us is right
Occlussion training is where you wrap a band around a muscle to limit blood flow to the muscle while you train it, which keeps the metabolic waste in the muscle, building it up, etc. because the blood cannot remove it.
I'm thinking building those metabolites up and then letting the blood flow in to flush it out will kind of prime/feed. It would have to be pretty low intensity, as HGP is describing. But I'm also wondering if reperfusion would create additional stimulus as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfe_j0tT92U
Yep...
Remember how I said you had to limit the volume or it becomes too much? He did a literal fugton of volume with his feeders. Three high rep sets per body part trained is really all that is needed. Don't eat into recovery ability.
If you are that abused I wouldn't do slow tempo... causes more muscle damage and is hard as hell on the CNS.
Interesting because I have noticed puzzies to be occlusive, so tight...
That's impressive way of describing it. I completely get what you say about higher weights with the same effect as with lower and the cell swelling. Some of this I know but not how all this affected cell swelling. Feeders makes much more sense now hahaThat is awesome, and i can tell that you are big on helping people from your posts. That must have been a very cool experience to have her reach out to you like that. As for the cell swelling I will discuss at the end of the post.
All good points, will discuss more below.
This would definitely work in the manner that you discuss here.and I thought of that when i came up with how to integrate them a bit in that last post. Addressing below...
Oh yay, I get to play some more...
Since it is all related rather than confuse myself and everyone else reading I will discuss my thoughts on it here.
Do I think Cell Swelling is going to be too much for a feeder set the day after a hard workout. No, again with that you are not creating much muscle damage. Most of the growth factors coming from Cell Swelling training are metabolic in nature. Same with Occlusion training, you are minimizing the mechanical damage and maximizing the metabolic hypertrophy signals.
Cell Swelling is also nutrient based as well, IE you want to supplement Glutamine to make sure there is plenty glutamine in the muscles, there needs to be for the cell to start to push it out and pull in leucine to stimulate MTor and really kick off protein synthesis. Leucine can't enter the muscle cell very well if there is not enough glutamine in the muscle, as glutamine is pushed out it pulls the leucine in... you also want a good level of sodium, and potassium, ie supplementing with 1 gram of Himilayan Sea Salt 30-60 minutes before the workout. The more hydrated you get the muscle cell, the better it can transport aminos and run it's processes so you really want to do what you can to increase muscle volume AKA the pump. I would actually do this for all 3 of these methods.
As far as the occlusion training goes and the rush of blood into the muscle once blood flow is unrestricted, I thought about that, and my thoughts were along these lines. They are still different animals, and both are effective, but via different actions. Absolutely you are correct that once the blood flow is restored the muscles fill up like balloons and will receive a lot of nutrients at that time if training in a fed state. So yes both have a portion that involve increasing blood flow to the muscle. However the bigger difference is in what happens metabolically in these scenarios.
Occlusion = less oxygen and or nutrients available to the muscle, handicapping it to 30-50% of its normal strength, causes A LOT of metabolic stress, more nuclei pulled into the cell from nearby satellite cells. Basically it makes the low weight high rep set have the same effect as a heavy mid range set deep into the RPE's. You get all the stimulation, MTor activation, just not the mechanical damage related to the heavier weight. Blood flow floods the muscle once restriction is removed, and this is when nutrient dense blood gets brought to the muscle.
Feeders = lots of oxygen supplied, lots of nutrients supplied throughout entire set, increase MTor, increase recovery, add volume without much muscle damage. More heightened recovery focused when used the day after heavier training. When done away from the training more so just another training stimulus that isn't going to dig a hole in your recovery ability.
Cell Swelling is in a way a combination of the two because you do not release the tension on the muscles during the reps. You shorten the ROM slightly so the muscle is always tense, this slightly limits blood flow into or out of the muscle causing a mild occlusive effect. Now you will go to "failure of sorts" on Cell Swelling as you will actually just shorten the ROM as you get deeper into the set to keep the tension and keep it moving to get the extremely high reps EI 100-200 in a set. Again many of this will simply be pulses to keep the muscle firing even though you can barely move the weight any longer. It is just 1 set though typically at the end of a workout. You get tons of metabolic reactions with this, you get the benefit of putting tons of muscle fibers to a point of failure, as well as increasing the likelihood of the muscle cells appropriating nuclei from satellite cells. This is one of the methods of how they say that you can beat your genetics by forcing the muscle to add nuclei to the muscle cell. This allows the muscle to support more volume, produce more energy from substrates, and also the reason for muscle memory. Once you recruit a nuclei from a satellite cell into the muscle cell it is there for good. So if you quit lifting then go back you still have the mechanism for faster growth.
When I was doing these I would do one of these 3 methods 3 times a week. Often alternating like some feeder sets one day then, cell swelling then feeder sets, I didn't do occlusion as much with that as it is hard to occlude your shoulders. The way to do so is more like doing overhead carries which limits the bloodflow in and out of the delts. Otherwise when i did my shoulders it was just feeders and and cell swelling work.
I have also had decent luck with occlusion training for my arms, and legs.
What, put the ibuprofen down Sir. Why even go to the gym if you are going to shortcircuit the inflammation process that stimulates the repair of the muscle? Just go do it without. You will loosen up, otherwise do some stretching and call it a day.
If you know us well figuring out who is right is as easy as reading my screen name.
Yep...
Remember how I said you had to limit the volume or it becomes too much? He did a literal fugton of volume with his feeders. Three high rep sets per body part trained is really all that is needed. Don't eat into recovery ability.
If you are that abused I wouldn't do slow tempo... causes more muscle damage and is hard as hell on the CNS.
Interesting because I have noticed puzzies to be occlusive, so tight...
My CNS can absorb some damage, I trained it with a lot of alcohol for many years.
...and discounting everything after it????If you know us well figuring out who is right is as easy as reading my screen name.
It isn't actually just the CNS that is effected by the slow tempo - the slow cadence actually causes more tissue damage. I have never really dug into feeder sets and I am no expert, but I think idea of the feeder sets is to "feed" the muscles and maybe squeeze out some metabolic conditioning, but not dig a deeper hole in your recovery.My CNS can absorb some damage, I trained it with a lot of alcohol for many years.
I'll just go and train...dammit. All that theory talking is affecting my, well, CNS already...
Today was NO feeder day! Tomorrow is feeder day, dammit!
Strong workout Hairyone!
Thank you, friend.
270Ibx7....you are a beast!
It was 90 minutes -but I had to coach my daughter between sets too. Some of those workouts I do in circuits, like Bradford/Rear delts.
