woohoo everyone looks up to cellardude for approval. :dance:What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:
i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around
:hammer:
Here Here! I say order in the court.
woohoo everyone looks up to cellardude for approval. :dance:What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:
i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around
You gotta give CEL credit for the warning on M-Drol. Stating that M-Drol is inappropriate for anyone's 1st anabolic cycle and also it requires a PCT.cel i would put in my shady list. Not to be a little b1tch or anything but any company that would pull out a superdrol clone after knowing how dangerous that crap is and making it available for unsuspecting teens to buy is no good in my book. Good stuff or not, quality items or not, pulling out something like superdrol after knowing how much harm it can do to your lipids and liver is a biiig no no in my book. That in my opinion would just be to satisfy demands and make some quick money, reguardless of results.
More kids these days seem to pick up mdrol as I keep seeing on the boards than anything. That thing needs to be pulled.
I agree 100%. Like RPN, Nimbus has great products and fair marketing. Poseidon, and the poseidon 'matrix' that's in most of Nimbus products, is one of the best products ever released IMO.What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:
i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around
yeah, but that brings both good and bad.You gotta give CEL credit for the warning on M-Drol. Stating that M-Drol is inappropriate for anyone's 1st anabolic cycle and also it requires a PCT.
They do say not intended for anyone under 21. Websites (re-sellers) should use an advanced security to ensure nobody under 21 can buy hormones, even though it wouldn't eliminate all problems with minors it'd help. Like underage drinking, it'll never stop. In a sense I do get what your saying. But as an adult consumer I research everything thoroughly before I take it. Actually I did my whole life. But to criticize taking advantage of loopholes is like criticizing every company on AM, including NP itself so I don't agree there.yeah, but that brings both good and bad.
good- theres a warning
bad- people who are convinced on taking it will ultimately be even more convinced.
stupid teenager: ooooh theres a warning on the label. It must be one of those of muscle tech warnings as well! It must mean its SUPER powerful. Let me mega dose on this.
If you are really concerned about the greater good of the people and not money, you would not try to break loop holes to bring a product that has been removed back into the market. Warning label dont mean **** if you intend to break loopholes in the law to make some money.
I was looking for the directions too! I read it and I could NOT believe it. In fact, I e-mailed it to a buddy of mine and I was just LIVID. I was so royally pissed of dood, it was unreal. Some crap about "careful when opening, it's highly reactive contents could escape into the air" or some off-the-charts B.S. like that.I do understand why marketing shemes reach such elaborate extremes, but Muscle Tech's AH just is absolutely hilarious. You guys left out the best part... the DIRECTIONS...
"Start off by consuming 1 serving (1 heaping scoop) mixed in 4 oz. of cold water right after your workout. As you develop respect for and truly comprehend the power of the ANABOLIC HALO, up your dose to 3 servings." NO NOOBZ ALLOWED!!
I can't bring myself to open up the description at Nutraplanet, but I'm pretty sure that MuscleTech advises you not the shake the bottle, as IT WILL XPLOOODE
well retailers are asked to stock X product. I dont completely blame the company for being irresponsible, there is a reason superdrol clones,halodrol clones and pheraplex clones are back on the market. Cause consumers want and request it. You cant agian blame the industry entirely, they push what you want to hear and bring things you want.I agree you cant completly put fault on one company for bringing back the clones. Consumers want it and thats the drive to bring it back and make money.They do say not intended for anyone under 21. Websites (re-sellers) should use an advanced security to ensure nobody under 21 can buy hormones, even though it wouldn't eliminate all problems with minors it'd help. Like underage drinking, it'll never stop. In a sense I do get what your saying. But as an adult consumer I research everything thoroughly before I take it. Actually I did my whole life. But to criticize taking advantage of loopholes is like criticizing every company on AM, including NP itself so I don't agree there.
we not bb.comAnd thank you everyone for showing others respect when in debate. I'm glad there is no "flaming". This is a thread based on NOTHING but opinions and we all have them. I'm signing off for the night. I need my Z's! :yawn:
I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since. Word on the streets is he got so big so quick from inhaling the actives that he just exploded.I was looking for the directions too! I read it and I could NOT believe it. In fact, I e-mailed it to a buddy of mine and I was just LIVID. I was so royally pissed of dood, it was unreal. Some crap about "careful when opening, it's highly reactive contents could escape into the air" or some off-the-charts B.S. like that.
Great, now you have me sick to my stomach......thanks for making me think of the MuscleTech ad.
OT: it reminds me of a joke.I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since.
There would still be obese people because everything takes work. There is no majic weight loss pill, or pill to gain muscle in the gym, it takes doing everything right to get what you want. Not one of us in the supplement industry can claim that. Your protein balls won't build muscle if they don't lift or they eat wrond the rest of the day..Just like our fat burner won't make tham lean if they don't put forth effort in the gym or diet.Most of my doubts with these companies isn't based on what's in the bottle...it's the claims made on what the ingredients in the bottle will do for you. In my opinion a lot of the weight loss pill manufacturers are the worst. Let's be honest, if there was a pill that melted the fat away there would be no obese people.
If you read truly scientific/medical studies on the ingredients found in many weight loss supplements you'll see things like "may assist with weight loss" or when taken by patients on a lower calorie diet "may result in a modest amount of weight loss."
You also forget, sir, that the only compounds that the Pharm industry deem worth researching are compounds that are patentable. You cannot patent an herb, or other naturally existing compounds even if they are damn effective at what they do.IMO the fat burners worst ones. There have millions and millions of dollars pumped into the research of combating obesity, and still there has been no magic pill found. It really chaps my a@@ to see the claims made by a lot of these companies. I'll say it again, if there was a magic weight loss pill there would be no obese people. If you're cutting your calories by 1000cal. a day, my money says that's why you're loosing weight...not some pill that you're taking.
Point taken....excuse my ignorance in that regard. I hope you don't take it that I was slamming any particular company....as I am more than sure that there are reputable companies out there.You also forget, sir, that the only compounds that the Pharm industry deem worth researching are compounds that are patentable. You cannot patent an herb, or other naturally existing compounds even if they are damn effective at what they do.
Not at all...the problems are rampant in that there are reputable companies intermixed with a LOT of unscrupulous ones. the challenge to research and find what truly works rather than who has the most SWOLE KICKASS ADVERTARDICLES is ongoing and difficult. The discussion is always welcome.Point taken....excuse my ignorance in that regard. I hope you don't take it that I was slamming any particular company....as I am more than sure that there are reputable companies out there.
Yah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.Not at all...the problems are rampant in that there are reputable companies intermixed with a LOT of unscrupulous ones. the challenge to research and find what truly works rather than who has the most SWOLE KICKASS ADVERTARDICLES is ongoing and difficult. The discussion is always welcome.
you mean shady old muscletech and their hydroxycut ads that havent changed eventhough the ingredience has changed multiple times? The same Dr.John Marshall or w/e his name is that reports that he has lost 38 w/e pounds on hydroycut in 4 weeks and feels as if he is in the best condition of his life?Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.
In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.
On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.
Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.
In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.
On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.
To clarify, the supplement industry as it pertains to supermarket chain, infomercial, and mainstream health and nutritional supplements is a very large industry; in this specific respect (niche market ingredients, somewhat unpublished compounds, physique-altering/myotropic products) the market is somewhat small - at least smaller than many in this thread would assume.Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.
In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.
On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.
word and they target those individuals rather than the bb community. Thats why you dont see any of those crazy ads flying around these forums. You simply cant get away with telling us lose 20 pounds in 10 weeks! Instead they target those who dont know any better. In magazines they will whip out the good old huge ripped guys or slim huge titted girls to lure people into buying products. They cant pull that on a bodybuilding forum simply because its not going to work. So they get technical with us here. :fool2:You have to consider the general population and who you are appealing to. Making statements that the majority of the population are not knowledgeable to know is still profitable.
The ridiculous advertising and claims are primarly geared towards the individual who is a weekend warrior or not taking fitness seriously. There are both sides of the fence, however, the larger group is people with a lackadasical attitude towards fitness.
In magazines and tv, people want the perfect physique, as the majority of the people want it immediately. Even with all the chemical enchancement advances out there, there is still a time factor that needs to be utilized regardless. People (esp the unknowledgeable ones) will correlate steroids to results.
To a certain degree this is true, but there are a lot of behind the scenes psychology at play.
Who wants to believe that eating properly and training correct is the bulk of the answer towards acheiving your goals ?
Not a lot of people. All it takes is one or a few people who are in excellent shape to say that 'x,y,z' made them look like that, whether it did or not.
Something triggers in people's heads that the 'elusive results' they cannot obtain are due to an item not currently available to them.
So they go out and buy it.
I don't agree with alot of the exaggerated marketing practices, but in the same sense that is how you run a business. It's not the very knowledgeable serious lifters who are going to be keeping the business alive, it's the other guys.
i will second this. I go to my high school gym bring some of the supp i use and the se guys are alwasy like " you have supps and companies we never have heard of" and im like "because the ones you havent heard of are the good ones, the ones that work by mouth not advertising". i enjoy very much what AM has done for me the past 4 months!! and i salute all the companies & repsi have intereacted with on here and hope to one day have my own company or something hereYah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.
lol :goodpost:Also, will the company 'reps' please stop saying (or mellow it a bit) your products are the best any and everytime someone posts asking about them? You're just diluting your credibility. How many countless times I've read, for example, "Guys, I'm considering getting Torrey Lab's Ground Meal Worm Growth Matrix powder to add mass. Ever hear anything about it?". Then the Torray Labs guy immediately chimes in, "It works awesome. I've recomped like crazy with it. In fact, it stacks awesome with our Sh*t-On-A-Stic and our Anabolic Corn Flakes. Try them all!". ugh
Originally Posted by papapumpsd
Also, will the company 'reps' please stop saying (or mellow it a bit) your products are the best any and everytime someone posts asking about them? You're just diluting your credibility. How many countless times I've read, for example, "Guys, I'm considering getting Torrey Lab's Ground Meal Worm Growth Matrix powder to add mass. Ever hear anything about it?". Then the Torray Labs guy immediately chimes in, "It works awesome. I've recomped like crazy with it. In fact, it stacks awesome with our Sh*t-On-A-Stic and our Anabolic Corn Flakes. Try them all!". ugh
lol
Yeah but if the reps stopped making these claims they wouldn't get their free supplements for the company they replol :goodpost:
what a pathetic write up!I'm on a lunch break right now, so I thought I'd go off on a tangent regarding how tired I am of supplement companies spamming the planet with ludicrous product claims and lack of supporting data. It's gotten to the point that I really don't buy too many products anymore (once in a while I do, if I've legitimzed the claim(s)).
So supplement manufacturers, listen up. Here's some direct-from-the-consumer feedback. If anyone else is tired of this marketing "slap in the face" by manufacturers, speak up please.
So I logged onto this board a few minutes ago and immediately an advertisement appears(along with a product photo). On the bottle of this so-called life-changing product (all of them are is seems they claim), it just touts "skin splitting pumps", along with a laundry list of other unwordly effects of this miracle product. What, my skin will LITERALLY split from the pumps or something? Get real. All "muscle pumping" products regurgitate the same bull$hit. If I want a pump, I'll blow $.02 cents/serving on Arginine Ethyl Ester DiHCL powder. If I really want a pump, I'll throw in creatine ethyl ester powder (even cheaper).
Aside from over-priced yet mundane product results from these hyped up products that have usually one primary ingredient (see above), I'm sick and tired of the pathetic claims and marketing terminology used in product descriptions.
PRIME EXAMPLE: MuscleTech
I NEED you all to read this product description for MuscleTech's Anabolic Halo product.
"In just seconds, an intense, glacial-like chill overwhelms the back of your throat. The subzero, arctic outbreak has begun! In virtually no time, it feels like your entire physiological profile is “freezing” as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO™ formula courses through your veins. The cryo-anabolic post-workout growth-inducing event invades your muscles and engages an anabolic uprising within them … leaving them with no choice but to grow!
With your first dose, the most hardcore anabolic supplement on the planet sends a powerful rush of musclebuilding ingredients coursing through your veins!
Brace yourself, for the extreme musclebuilding potency of the world’s most hardcore anabolic/non-androgenic musclebuilding supplement – ANABOLIC HALO. The cryogenically enhanced formula forces you into a total body muscle metamorphosis … a transitional growth phase that has you witness your frame explode with new mass. A never-before-seen arsenal of anabolic and muscle-morphing compounds floods your muscular pathway, switching on the currents that control your growth, and telling your muscles to take on massive, granite-thick shape! It synergizes a shockingly powerful anabolic environment that radiates from your muscles, setting the stage for chilling, eerie muscle gains the likes of which no bodybuilder has ever imagined.
What is this thing you’re feeling? It’s the power of -320 degrees Fahrenheit. Three pharmaceutically inspired, cryogenic technologies never before seen within the realm of bodybuilding supplementation synchronize the muscle manipulating powers of ANABOLIC HALO. Featuring three SUB-ZERO™ Technologies – Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, Lyophilization and Anabolic Crystallographic Technology – ANABOLIC HALO unleashes the exclusive power of cryo-anabolic molecules.
The first, Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, uses mechanically measured blasts of impossibly low-temperature liquid nitrogen, as cold as -320 degrees Fahrenheit, to thermomolecularly enhance a precise portion of one of the most anabolic compounds on the planet.
The second pharmaceutically inspired technology, called Lyophilization, actually changes the physical state of a proprietary dose of an anti-catabolic complex in ANABOLIC HALO. Lyophilization exploits the micro-molecular process of sublimation which is so advanced, it actually forces molecules within a structure to skip matter states and go directly from a solid to a gas.
The third, cryogenic process, called Anabolic Crystallographic Technology, discharges a 180-minute treatment of liquid nitrogen at -150 degrees Fahrenheit on a critical anabolic compound. The resulting molecular structure is unlike anything ever witnessed in bodybuilding!
Make no mistake, ANABOLIC HALO™ is designed to throw muscles into the most hardcore, anabolic state they’ve ever been in. The ultra-potent blend sets off a sequence of six growth-inducing elements guaranteed to make your muscles balloon to monstrous proportions … like you’ve never seen before! And the formula is relentless, continuing to work until a larger, more muscular being stares back at you in the mirror!"
source: MuscleTech - ANABOLIC HALO - The World's Cyro-Anabolic Post-Workout Growth-Inducing Event
WTF is this INSANE BULL$HIT?! This should honestly be illegal to publish such volumes of nonsensicle and misleading content. Do they have research to support these fu**ing ridiculous claims? Hell no. It's loaded to the brim with B.S.!
And MuscleTech isn't alone with this nonsense hype. I'm sure you've all read other product descriptions. LOADED with false hope.
MANUFACTURERES: Here's a novel idea: How about doing human trials on REGULAR weight lifters, not DARREN CHARLES juice-head freaks? You know, blow $25,000 on a test group of lifters and a placebo group. That silly testing that pharmaceutical companies do for their drugs. Know what I mean? Put up some data to support your dumba$$ claims. I don't buy your hyped up poser products because they either A) don't work at all, or B) work very little (too little to justify the cost, aka, A WASTE).
Some of you might claim, "but there are logs of REAL people using products). Yep, sure are. And when they post logs of Product A while on Products B, C, D, E, F....n, who gives a rat's a$$? Where's the placebo group? Oh ya, there isn't one. The user that claims, "I gained 5 lbs in week 1!!! OMFG, this is AMAZING!", didn't do bodyfat analysis (pre/post), is now consuming increased amounts of water since (s)he think (s)he is on some mega anabolic product and needs to guzzle gallons/day, etc, etc, etc. VERY, VERY little science put into a "log".
But wait, I saw "before & after" photos. This person really added mass. Great, I add mass too when I start pounding weight gainers and water. Also, there's the outside of the body, and then, OMG, there's an INSIDE! How's that liver doing champ? How are your lipids? Blood pressure? Cognition? Simple things you can track if a simple product trial is done, but what "logs" don't (or very, very rarely) track correctly.
And when you manufacturers get on review boards and use fake profile names like, "John12341", I know it's you so cut the $hit. Stop falsely inflating the reviews with your B.S. When I read overly optimistic reviews on products (like, 10 5-star ratings) with reviews claiming AMAZING, UNGODLY results, you think I believe that? Even Superdrol had haters...a lot, and it gave incredible results (many which weren't appreciated by users, aka, negative side effects).
Conclusion: MANUFACTURERS, GET SOME REAL SUPPORTIVE DATA FROM "REGULAR" FU**ING LIFERS WHO AREN'T ON JUICE/GEAR AND NOT ON ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS. STOP USING PRO's TO HYPE YOUR CRAP. STOP FALIFYING PRODUCT REVIEWS. STOP READING THE LATEST ARTICLES IN "JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION" THEN MAKING SOME JERK-OFF PRODUCT BASED ON SOME QUESTIONABLE RESULTS from Dr. Krishnamurthy at UCLA, WITHOUT REAL, NON-MISLEADING HUMAN PRODUCT TRIAL DATA.
For now you can eat a big one cause I make my own supps. using bulk powders, tried-and-true primary ingredients (CEE, AEE, etc) all at a fraction of the cost of your J.U.N.K.
You're ruining what could be a very useful industry.
OUT
This is one of the most original comments I have read in a while! It was really hard to control my laughter! Cheers, bud! :thumbsup:I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since. Word on the streets is he got so big so quick from inhaling the actives that he just exploded....
"If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. " <---I don't understand. Please clarify.There is a misconception in terms of available overhead to divert to clinical research in this respect - it is simply not there. If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. Those results would be negated not only from a popular standpoint, but recent studies have concluded significant funding biases exist both in the parameters and eventual outcome of a study. What, then, should be a companies resource for objective proof? Third party, unaffiliated research.
As for the concern about constructing research around supplement's affects on weight lifters - if only the world (well our world, more specifically) was that serene. As dsade alluded to, research is conducted primarily, though not exclusively, on compounds which may have a relevant pharmaceutical capacity i.e., can be synthesized, patented, and sold en masse. As weight lifters, we are not a lucrative, and therefore unnoticed, population in terms of clinical research; especially in respects to 'niche' ingredients.
If companies began diverting that much overhead to clinical R&D, you would not have supplements - period. Why is it that bulk products are so significantly lower than branded products? No logistical (employee salaries, marketing initiatives, shipping and processing, sourcing fees, extraction and manufacturing fees, lawyers, and so on) concerns. Unfortunately, funding your own clinical research is a massive whale of a logistical concern. If every supplement company began funding research, the $50 supplement being lamented would be an $80 supplement.
Personally, I feel quite confident in the objective clinical research - and critical engagement with the limitations of that research - behind our products. When asked, I readily provide evidence that correlates our products with their perceived affects in a real-world capacity. We feel we have chosen ingredients whose standardization and dosing are congruent with the suggested research models. This means extrapolating the mg/kg dosage used on rats, for example, to a relevant dose in our products. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily 'industry practice', which explains the failure of promising compounds in a real world application.
Yah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.
The next statement clarified, and answers your question:"If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. " <---I don't understand. Please clarify.
but recent studies have concluded significant funding biases exist both in the parameters and eventual outcome of a study. What, then, should be a companies resource for objective proof? Third party, unaffiliated research.
Please read my entire statements:If I'm understanding some of the things you are saying correctly, how would you explain the millions of dollars put into B.S. advertising by supplement companies? Are you claiming that there isn't enough money in these companies to do "clinical studies" to generate real data to back up so many of these jerk-off claims?
I see professional BBers hyping products in well known magazines. I see t.v. ads as well. These aren't cheap forms of advertising.
Your grievances, while valid, are being vocalized to a minority of supplement owners, representatives, and employees, who most likely share the same views. The largest offenders in this respect - mass false advertising - are not represented on this board.To clarify, the supplement industry as it pertains to supermarket chain, infomercial, and mainstream health and nutritional supplements is a very large industry; in this specific respect (niche market ingredients, somewhat unpublished compounds, physique-altering/myotropic products) the market is somewhat small - at least smaller than many in this thread would assume.
the first one :dance:As a scientist, I am so turned off by the ridiculous advertising that goes on because I focus on the science and any data supporting the product. But, the fact is, if you don't use that kind of advertising, you lose sales to the people that do. The people that frequent these boards are well above average in terms of being informed. However, they are also in the vast minority. If I showed you two ads for the same product and one said "this product will increase you strength by 20% in 6 weeks" and the other said "EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH GAINS AFTER THE FIRST DOSE" which are you going to buy?
Same here, but what do you think the majority of 16-21 year olds will respond to? You also have to realize that most smaller companies are doing the advertising themselves with little budget when the big boys have mega bucks and either their own marketing department or an agency doing their ads. No doubt that the smaller companies look amateurish and resort to just throwing out hard hitting words.the first one :dance:
Yep...but I don't take product descriptions and ingredients lists for granted. If claims are made, I will attempt to see how the company backs them up. If they're stating numbers "X%, Xlbs, etc", I will look into how they derived such numbers.the first one :dance: