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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

Torobestia said:
Absolutely. Yeah, I was just going off of the -20/+20 and using 2400 as maintenance and doing some head calculations.
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Yah 2400 is about my manteinance too... when I wanted to really shred up I went 2700-2900 adn 1600-1900 depending on activity.. now I have introduced Epi-v which shreds me unbelievably so I have to up my cals to 2900-3200 1900-2200 again depending on other activity...
 
EasyEJL said:
if your bmr has you at 2400, going much lower than 1800 doesn't make sense in that you are more likely to catabolize muscle at that point. I really think 30% below maintenance is the lowest people should hit. I suppose it also matters whether you are 3 workout days/4 off days vs 5 workout days/2 off days.
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I'll Keep that in mind...its very easy for me to under eat and I guess I assume (perhaps wrongfully) that "less is more." I swear I've read Berkhan and Pilon state that catabolism doesn't really start until after about 36 hours of straight fasting, and event then not at a crazy rate. If this is true and you're over feeding or at least eating to maintenance every other day, my thought is that you should be fine. Or maybe that's just what I hope, since I tend to under eat quite a bit.

EasyEJL said:
I suppose it also matters whether you are 3 workout days/4 off days vs 5 workout days/2 off days.
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This brings up a good question. I like to switch between 3 and 4 day splits. If you were doing a 4-day split, would you all have a 4th day of high-carb/re-feed? Today was supposed to be an off day for me, but I threw in an extra heavy weight session. I've kept the day calorically as an off-day (~1500), but added a bit more carbs to my post workout meal. Any thoughts?
 
Where should i add creatine into intermittent fasting? Does it contain calories? Does it go with my bcaas? I train fasted
 
inda11 said:
Where should i add creatine into intermittent fasting? Does it contain calories? Does it go with my bcaas? I train fasted
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Mine has 5 calories per 5 gram scoop and I don't count it. I take it right after my workout, around 7, and don't break my fast until at least 12. I train completely fasted.
 
inda11 said:
Where should i add creatine into intermittent fasting? Does it contain calories? Does it go with my bcaas? I train fasted
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Bcaas is breaking that fast in itself big boy!
 
IMO, a fast is a fast. Therefore anything with calories would be breaking fast and therefore releasing insulin
 
Jahcuree said:
IMO, a fast is a fast. Therefore anything with calories would be breaking fast and therefore releasing insulin
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Lean gains which is typically what people are following on here reccomends that bcaas should be taken pw during fasted training and does not break the fast
 
BCAAs do cause a bit if an insulin release and have a caloric value attached to them, so they do technically break the fast. But they are recommended when doing fasted workouts preworkout, post workout, and every two hours before breaking fast. Skip them on cardio only days or rest days, as they can negatively impact your fat loss with the insulin release.

As for low cal days, feel free to go as low cal as you want. Just try to get your minimum protein in. There is zero catabolism that will happen that day. That doesn't happen until fasting for beyond 30-40 hours
 
Jahcuree said:
IMO, a fast is a fast. Therefore anything with calories would be breaking fast and therefore releasing insulin
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I don't recall seeing studies on BCAAs and insulin response, but I have read a lot of them on insulin release and spikes and I can't see 10g of BCAA's being that big of a deal.
 
audix2359 said:
I don't recall seeing studies on BCAAs and insulin response, but I have read a lot of them on insulin release and spikes and I can't see 10g of BCAA's being that big of a deal.
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Its not that big of a deal, but it does impact things. Go back a few pages and read what Kleen (the creator of this thread)said about BCAAs and it will make more sense. The insulin release from BCAAs is short but while it is occurring you cannot burn fat effectively like you can without them. This us why they aren't advised on cardio or rest days. Purely around weight training only
 
I was wondering how you guys first start IF? I did it last year for 10 months and got to 172 @ 4% bf and I'm currently at 195 @ 12% bf.. These according to bodpod. However I'm current on "standard" diet eating every 3-4 hours and I really want to get back into IF but I keep failing because I wake up so hungry I can't make it.
When I did it before my fast was 6 pm-12am and I'd like to start doing 5 pm - 11pm. I know it's a 6 hr window versus 8 but it worked really well for me.
Any tips on how to survive the first few days during the fast? Perhaps lettuce or bcaas until I get used to it? I know after the first few days I'll have no problems.

Thanks a lot
 
NoSwtTea4U said:
I was wondering how you guys first start IF? I did it last year for 10 months and got to 172 @ 4% bf and I'm currently at 195 @ 12% bf.. These according to bodpod. However I'm current on "standard" diet eating every 3-4 hours and I really want to get back into IF but I keep failing because I wake up so hungry I can't make it.
When I did it before my fast was 6 pm-12am and I'd like to start doing 5 pm - 11pm. I know it's a 6 hr window versus 8 but it worked really well for me.
Any tips on how to survive the first few days during the fast? Perhaps lettuce or bcaas until I get used to it? I know after the first few days I'll have no problems.

Thanks a lot
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If I get hungry during my fast window, I drink hot green tea. That kills my appetite for at least an hour. I think it's more the hot liquid than it is the tea, because cold tea doesn't do the same thing.
 
NoSwtTea4U said:
I was wondering how you guys first start IF? I did it last year for 10 months and got to 172 @ 4% bf and I'm currently at 195 @ 12% bf.. These according to bodpod. However I'm current on "standard" diet eating every 3-4 hours and I really want to get back into IF but I keep failing because I wake up so hungry I can't make it.
When I did it before my fast was 6 pm-12am and I'd like to start doing 5 pm - 11pm. I know it's a 6 hr window versus 8 but it worked really well for me.
Any tips on how to survive the first few days during the fast? Perhaps lettuce or bcaas until I get used to it? I know after the first few days I'll have no problems.

Thanks a lot
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So, you plan on eating a meal at 5 pm and then again at 11pm, before bed? I don't really see how that's a true fast, at least not from a hormonal standpoint. Don't get me wrong, if it got you to 4% BF, it obviously helps you manage calories and create a deficit, but IF is about more than creating a deficit.

If boredom and hunger are your issues, why not end your feeding window a bit closer to the time you go to bed? If you have your last meal 2-hours before bed and sleep for 7 hours, you've just beat the 6-hour fast that you're shooting for by 3 hours. That should be easy for you since you'll be asleep for all but 2 hours of it. Once you get used to that, you can try holding off your first meal for a few hours. If you can at least get yourself up to 12 hours, you'll start to get the hormonal benefits of IF as well. I try to use the time to be productive at work or around the house...then it goes pretty quickly. Good luck!
 
RickRock13 said:
As for low cal days, feel free to go as low cal as you want. Just try to get your minimum protein in. There is zero catabolism that will happen that day. That doesn't happen until fasting for beyond 30-40 hours
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I'm going with you on this one, bro...if I get my min protein in and don't feel like eating more, I'm done for the day. It gives me more wiggle room for re-feeds. To me, the most important thing is that I'm cycling my carbs in around workouts, keeping them low on off days, and hitting my protein goals. While I keep track of calories each day, I'm more concerned with my weekly goal. If I have "rollover calories" lying around on Sunday, I know I can eat real big and still come in at my targeted deficit. Likewise, if I go nuts one night and polish off my kids' dinners as well as mine, I make up for it here and there throughout the week to hit my weekly calorie goal. Its worked well thus far.

Now off to the pool celebrate the 4th...I see a few cold beers in my very near future. :dance:
 
I've been using caffeine pills to help with hunger. I pop one first thing, and another 3 or so hours beofre breaking my fast.
 
boogyman said:
I've been using caffeine pills to help with hunger. I pop one first thing, and another 3 or so hours beofre breaking my fast.
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100-200mg 5-HTP kills my hunger and puts me in a good mood all day.
 
@awebs
I was stating my window was 5-11, not that I'd only eat at those 2 times. Also I go to bed at 11 so I would be ending at bedtime which is how I did it before when I went to bed at midnight.

I appreciate your input and I'll try to stretch the fast period each day until I reach the desired 16 hr mark. Thanks
 
NoSwtTea4U said:
@awebs
I was stating my window was 5-11, not that I'd only eat at those 2 times. Also I go to bed at 11 so I would be ending at bedtime which is how I did it before when I went to bed at midnight.

I appreciate your input and I'll try to stretch the fast period each day until I reach the desired 16 hr mark. Thanks
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That's basically what I've been doing-keep working on making it work a step at a time. I feel better adjusting my lifestyle ad compared to forcing a hard change only to see it be temporary
 
Happy 4th! Invalid Link Removed
 
With intermittent fasting should you keep sugar from carbohydrates low? Or does it not matter? Drinking a pint of juice is a easy way of getting 45g of carbohydrates down.
 
NoSwtTea4U said:
I wake at 7 and work out at 530.
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So, from 11-7 you already have 8 hours without food...if you just tack on a few hours before bed and a few hours after bed you'll be at 16 in no time. If you work out at 5:30 and have your biggest meal from 7-8 and stop eating at 8, you'll have 11 hours in by your 7am wake up time.
 
inda11 said:
With intermittent fasting should you keep sugar from carbohydrates low? Or does it not matter? Drinking a pint of juice is a easy way of getting 45g of carbohydrates down.
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I do this on workout, or "carb" days. Unlike a lot of people, I actually find it hard to get enough carbs on these days, I find myself eating so much meat. My first meal on workout days I drink a large cup of grape juice to get a bunch of easy carbs.

I use veggies to do the opposite. On days I want to keep carbs low I eat large portions of veggies with meals. On carb days I eat less veggies, usually with my last meal only. Seems to be working for me so far, but I am only about a week into it.
 
inda11 said:
With intermittent fasting should you keep sugar from carbohydrates low? Or does it not matter? Drinking a pint of juice is a easy way of getting 45g of carbohydrates down.
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Years ago when I did IF I was eating sugar whenever I felt like it and was super-lean. Having jumped back on about a month ago, I've had sugar to get my carbs in and I've dropped a considerable amount of BF in that time. If I need carbs, I'll try to get as many so-called clean carbs in as possible, but there's a limit to how much I can actually eat - so I'll opt for juice, ice cream, chocolate, etc...whatever I can eat that fits my macros.
 
audix2359 said:
Years ago when I did IF I was eating sugar whenever I felt like it and was super-lean. Having jumped back on about a month ago, I've had sugar to get my carbs in and I've dropped a considerable amount of BF in that time. If I need carbs, I'll try to get as many so-called clean carbs in as possible, but there's a limit to how much I can actually eat - so I'll opt for juice, ice cream, chocolate, etc...whatever I can eat that fits my macros.
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Yah if you really need to add higher density cal foods to make the numbers work... so be it. I used frozen yogurt and not that I am off dairy I will use a lot of fruit. I will add dates if it's too much volume but I have a realy big appetite, I like volume and the big eat :)
 
Yo i have a general question about this IF, lets say you start doing IF, and you want your feeding window to be from 6:30 am until 11:30 am, your workout is at 2 p.m., so now that its not your feeding window, is it ok NOT to have a post workout meal, and not eat until 6:30 the next morning , or would that be really detrimental for your muscles
 
gokix811 said:
Hi AM! Noobie here and I have a few questions if someone wouldn't mind answering them. :)

I'm training for fat loss, usually in the evening (5-6 pm), so I'm eating below maintenance.
I wake up around 6 a.m. and since I train in the evening, is it recommended that I train fasted or eat a small meal as a pre-wo while I wait for my BCAA to arrive?
What would a pre-wo meal consist of?
Is this the schedule that I follow? And does the same eating routine apply for cardio/HIIT days?

Sample:
12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Meal one. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.
4-5 PM: Pre-workout meal. Roughly equal to the first meal.
8-9 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).
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With your current set up you don't actually look to have any need for the BCAA's I don't see any fasted training. If you get them anyway I would use them intra workout.

EasyEJL said:
thats about as far I see pushing it makes sense. Its not even quite about the difference, but about how far below maintenance the low day is. if your bmr has you at 2400, going much lower than 1800 doesn't make sense in that you are more likely to catabolize muscle at that point. I really think 30% below maintenance is the lowest people should hit. I suppose it also matters whether you are 3 workout days/4 off days vs 5 workout days/2 off days.
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No muscle catabolism doesn't really even start until after 36 hours and closer to the 40-48 marker. The fast actually protects the muscles from catabolism. Now where the problem comes in for a case for catabolism is once you eat. If you eat a tiny meal then wait to eat for a few hours then another tiny meal, and then another one later you will end up creating a hormonal cycle that will induce what the body sees as stress so it will begin to release cortisol. You are adding in food which changes the hormonal set up but the food is not sufficient to meet the needs. The body is expecting the big meal and doesn't get it, stress signal sent = cortisol dump. However if you simply extend the fast in order to cut calories instead of taking in tiny meals you continue burning fat unabated and your muscle tissue is still being protected by the glucagon like peptide. Also fat burning increases quite a bit after the 16-18th hour, metabolism actually speeds up at this point in order to help us forage or hunt during the fast. The reason Martin chose 16 hours was the he felt you fasted long enough to get the benefits from fasting but had an eating window large enough to consume the fats. That and to Martin the fast that visceral fat is the type of fat that the increase in metabolism burns. He is not interested in that so much but I carry a lot of visceral fat so the idea of extending my fast and burning more fat at a higher accelerated pace is a much more appealing option to me.

I have been doing 900-1600 on my burn days and 2700-3200 for 6 months and the results are better for me and easier to maintain. I like 1-2 big meals on my burn days. Hitting 1000-1500 in one big meal is nice, and 1500 in two isn't too bad either.


Many people follow ADF which is about a 36 hour fast followed by a day / waking period of eating. Others do it where they fast all day on a burn day then just before bet they take in 100 grams of protein. Then the following day they begin to eat and they eat 3000-6000 calories during that day. They all continue to make progress in LBM gains and fat loss.



awebs said:
I'll Keep that in mind...its very easy for me to under eat and I guess I assume (perhaps wrongfully) that "less is more." I swear I've read Berkhan and Pilon state that catabolism doesn't really start until after about 36 hours of straight fasting, and event then not at a crazy rate. If this is true and you're over feeding or at least eating to maintenance every other day, my thought is that you should be fine. Or maybe that's just what I hope, since I tend to under eat quite a bit.



This brings up a good question. I like to switch between 3 and 4 day splits. If you were doing a 4-day split, would you all have a 4th day of high-carb/re-feed? Today was supposed to be an off day for me, but I threw in an extra heavy weight session. I've kept the day calorically as an off-day (~1500), but added a bit more carbs to my post workout meal. Any thoughts?
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Doing 4 build days in a week is not going to be a problem unless you are trying to cut down extremely fast then more burn days will be better. You can still lean up eating big 4 days a week.

NoSwtTea4U said:
I was wondering how you guys first start IF? I did it last year for 10 months and got to 172 @ 4% bf and I'm currently at 195 @ 12% bf.. These according to bodpod. However I'm current on "standard" diet eating every 3-4 hours and I really want to get back into IF but I keep failing because I wake up so hungry I can't make it.
When I did it before my fast was 6 pm-12am and I'd like to start doing 5 pm - 11pm. I know it's a 6 hr window versus 8 but it worked really well for me.
Any tips on how to survive the first few days during the fast? Perhaps lettuce or bcaas until I get used to it? I know after the first few days I'll have no problems.

Thanks a lot
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You can snack on celery, or broccoli. You can also just take a serving of fiber to make you feel like you have eaten. Fiber pills or the sugar free metamucil knock off will work. Honestly though just suck it up for 3-4 days and you will be good to go. Doesn't take long for the body to make the adjustment.


NoSwtTea4U said:
@awebs
I was stating my window was 5-11, not that I'd only eat at those 2 times. Also I go to bed at 11 so I would be ending at bedtime which is how I did it before when I went to bed at midnight.

I appreciate your input and I'll try to stretch the fast period each day until I reach the desired 16 hr mark. Thanks
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If you are only eating from 5-11 you are already fasting 18 hours so you are doing fine.

DreamWeaver said:
Yah if you really need to add higher density cal foods to make the numbers work... so be it. I used frozen yogurt and not that I am off dairy I will use a lot of fruit. I will add dates if it's too much volume but I have a realy big appetite, I like volume and the big eat :)
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I agree, low fat pop tarts and candied yams are a big part of my carb sources. Sherbet too, don't get me wrong I get my bagels and other stuff in too but when trying to hit higher carbs these types of choices make it easy. One 15 oz can of candied yams is anywhere between 160-220 grams of carbs depending on the brand. Oh yeah baby! It digests quickly too so no major issues there.

Borispili said:
Yo i have a general question about this IF, lets say you start doing IF, and you want your feeding window to be from 6:30 am until 11:30 am, your workout is at 2 p.m., so now that its not your feeding window, is it ok NOT to have a post workout meal, and not eat until 6:30 the next morning , or would that be really detrimental for your muscles
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Well if you followed the 8 hour window you would be eating up until 2:30, if there is not any other reason why you arent going to do it I think I might bump the beginning of your window to 8:30 then eat until 4:30 that way you could smash down say 100 grams protein and carbs post workout. My other recommendation would be to have your window the exact same way you do now but have a shake with 100g of both protein and carbs right after then fast until 6:30 the next morning.

YOu would be missing out on a lot of potential muscle growth by not providing yourself with some protein during the 18 hours after the workout. Your protein synthesis starts rising from the workout about 4 hours after and it peaks about 24 hours late then begins to drop off. If you don't even start giving yourself protein until the 14-18th hour post workout you are not getting many hours of feeding in during the optimal protein synthesis phase. Now you could simply treat it as if it was a fasted workout and take a couple doses of aminos post workout too. Adjust it as needed but do try to stimulate and amplify protein synthesis in the period after the workout.
 
MrKleen73 said:
With your current set up you don't actually look to have any need for the BCAA's I don't see any fasted training. If you get them anyway I would use them intra workout.
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If I want to train fasted later in the evening (5-6 pm, with BCAA), how would the feeding window be set up?
 
DreamWeaver said:
Candied yams would be great for a carb up, a little of both worlds...
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Oh yeah I came up with that one the other day. I am always putting honey and cinnamon on my sweet potatoes and decide I could get a whole lot more carbs in just getting the candied yams then all I need is an opener and a microwave if I want them hot. Of course i may pick up some marshmallow cream and toss it in for good measure during one of my bigger carb ups.

gokix811 said:
If I want to train fasted later in the evening (5-6 pm, with BCAA), how would the feeding window be set up?
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You would just move your feeding window to right after your workout until you go to bed that night. The before your workout take 10 grams of aminos and then eat a big meal right after you train and keep eating until you get all your caloric requirements in. Whether that be a 4 hour period or 6 hour or whatever. Now for something a little more similar to the training fasted might be to have your window from say 1-9pm and have a protein only meal or two before you lift then have 1 huge meal of all of you carbs and the rest of your protein and fats in it. That way you never supply glycogen to the muscle but also can get your calories in a little more manageably because you get some of them out of the way without hindering the insulin response of the post workout carb meal later.
 
The thing is that my feeding window is from 8am until 2 pm.and my workout is from 6-7 am im not a big evening eater but i feel tiered , and like my muscles are wasting away any thoughts on what i can do, i dont take BCAA because i have a freind who specialzes in amino acids and lucien is proven to spike insulin as efficiently as carbs
 
Borispili said:
The thing is that my feeding window is from 8am until 2 pm.and my workout is from 6-7 am im not a big evening eater but i feel tiered , and like my muscles are wasting away any thoughts on what i can do, i dont take BCAA because i have a freind who specialzes in amino acids and lucien is proven to spike insulin as efficiently as carbs
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Your muscles are not wasting away. I found this article and it does a good job of explaining it in simple terms.

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As for BCAA's this is how I understand it, though maybe I am incorrect. During a BCAA induced spike there isn't any sugars for the isulin to store as fat, since you are fasted. So in the end it is inconsequential.
 
fgarcia871 said:
I've been reading this log for the last two days and I'm amazed at how well it works. I want to go ahead and try it, but i do have some questions.
there is an 8 hour eating period does that mean, I can eat anytime within those 8 hours. for example my post work out is schedule at 2 pm and my last meal of the day at 10pm, so i eat at 2pm and can I also eat like at 5 then 10pm.
also Im oging to be taking ecdysterone(ECD russian extract natural) do i take that on the morning too, or do i wait for my post workout meal and then my other meal?
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Yep, 2pm, 5pm and 10pm would work well. Anytime within the eating window really. My experience with this eating protocol is not sweat to much as to when I'm eating during the window, just aim for the macros and hit the 'burn' days hard. My post workout meal today was 6 chicken tacos, 4 ice cream cones and two coffees. And I'm just a little guy:)

From what I understand you would want to take the Ecdy with your high protein meals as it help with absorbtion. People slam Ecdy a lot but I took it last year and really liked it:)
 
I'm going to try this in two weeks. I maintain a steady 7% bf under the traditional methods...but if I can maintain 3-6% bf under this and be less restricted I'll give it a shot. Although to be honest I don't even restrict myself now. So I'm assuming I can drink casein at the very beginning of the eating window, but not at any other time right?
 
No. The very end of your eating window would be much more recommended.
 
jswain34 said:
No. The very end of your eating window would be much more recommended.
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Really? But wouldn't drinking casein at the end of my eating window contradict the fast since it's a slow digesting protein?
 
Have you read the leangains website? Maybe go read that real quick, there is a part there that will easily answer your question. Maybe even go all the way back to pg 1-2 of this thread, I know kleen summarized the website just don't remember if this topic was included. After you try those two things let us know if your question hasn't been completely answered and someone will surely be glad to help you out. Not trying to sound like an a** if that's the way I'm coming off. I'm just sure doing those two things will answer a lot of other questions you might have.
 
1. Can you do IF only 3 days a week(due to work schedule)?

2. Father refuses to have coffee without creamer during fast. Is it worth it to even argue with him?
 
deriktheman said:
1. Can you do IF only 3 days a week(due to work schedule)?

2. Father refuses to have coffee without creamer during fast. Is it worth it to even argue with him?
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No and no. You won't get the benefits of doing it 3x a week, and the creamer probably isn't enough calories to matter
 
So today will be my 6th day on the IF diet. The first three days (T,W,Th) I was dropping weight steadily ~2 lbs overall. No weight loss on Fri or Sat, just maintained it. Wake up today (Sunday) and I'm up +2 lbs. Let's see, last week my schedule went like this:

Sun - Lift
Mon - HIIT
Tues - Lift
Wed - Off
Th - Lift + Cardio
F - HIIT
Sat - Lift

I've been logging in my cals daily and eating within my time frame. Not sure what I am doing wrong? :think:
 
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