The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[dieseljay74]

I always count my kcals. ALWAYS Carbs around 400g right now daily.

Obviously from you pictures you stay lean on it!

 

[The Solution]

Obviously from you pictures you stay lean on it!

Calories are calories if you dont meet your minimum you wont grow
If you are in a surplus you will grow
Calories in vs calories out.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Thanks Rosie... I do feel better after that initial adjustment to not eating breakfast!

"Breakfast" is your FIRST meal of the day.

~Rosie~

 

[MrKleen73]

Looking solid The Solution , I assume there are not any real differences other than gradually adjusting your calories down with it which is what I always suspected. Do you do a pre load then dry out for peak week or deplete and then to carb back up? Not asking per LG stuff so much as just curious to your preference.

 

[The Solution]

Looking solid The Solution , I assume there are not any real differences other than gradually adjusting your calories down with it which is what I always suspected. Do you do a pre load then dry out for peak week or deplete and then to carb back up? Not asking per LG stuff so much as just curious to your preference.

Nope. backload

did 900g of carbs thursday
700g Friday
Lots of pancakes in the morning, Sweet potato + Almond Butter + Steak, lots of rice cakes with PB + Honey etc.

 

[Johnston]

Have you ALWAYS been able to consume as many carbs and stay lean, or did it take you a while to build up to that?

 

[The Solution]

Have you ALWAYS been able to consume as many carbs and stay lean, or did it take you a while to build up to that?

Metabolism is a hell of a drug. the more muscle you get the better you can handle more kcals.
I prefer a High carb over high fat because higher fat makes me bloated, less performance, and less energy

so my P/F stays the same daily and i eat 400/370g of carbs daily workout/non

 

[Johnston]

Yes, I have heard that. Hence why I'm cutting at the moment to get as lean as possible, as it seems whenever I've upped my carbs in the past (while still being around 12/13% bf), I just start putting it on again around my middle!

 

[The Solution]

Yes, I have heard that. Hence why I'm cutting at the moment to get as lean as possible, as it seems whenever I've upped my carbs in the past (while still being around 12/13% bf), I just start putting it on again around my middle!

that would be total calories.

 

[Johnston]

Yes, I count meticulously. Carbs are inevitably what gets bumped up when increasing though, but yes it could just as well be fat or protein that pushes it over the edge of course.

 

[fueledpassion]

Metabolism is a hell of a drug. the more muscle you get the better you can handle more kcals.
I prefer a High carb over high fat because higher fat makes me bloated, less performance, and less energy

so my P/F stays the same daily and i eat 400/370g of carbs daily workout/non

I agree. I ate 600g yesterday

Carbs are king for performance and muscle building.

 

[The Solution]

I agree. I ate 600g yesterday

Carbs are king for performance and muscle building.

I also want to emphasize i do not cycle macros like martin suggests, its not necessary, it may have some benefits, but for most they notice letahrgy on off days from very low kcals and swings in kcals/carbs.
Carbs are very beneficial, they can increase sertonin levels, performance, and also recovery, hence why i keep my protein and fat nearly identical everyday and just drop 25-30g of carbs on off days.

 

[dieseljay74]

"Breakfast" is your FIRST meal of the day. ~Rosie~

True! Even if it comes at noon or 1PM

 

[dieseljay74]

Metabolism is a hell of a drug. the more muscle you get the better you can handle more kcals. I prefer a High carb over high fat because higher fat makes me bloated, less performance, and less energy so my P/F stays the same daily and i eat 400/370g of carbs daily workout/non

See I'm exactly the opposite. Zero bloat or anything on high fat/ protein.
Bloated as a fat kid when high carbing...

 

[MrKleen73]

Well if backloading you may find you have a higher carb tolerance than spreading them through out the day. I do not do well with higher carbs regardless of caloric intake. Fat has to be very low for me to do well physically on high carbs, but I tend to have blood sugar issues when doing it that way. However the carb backloading approach really helps with those insulin response issues. It's just that I train very early in the AM and would need to train again in the evening to really take complete advantage of the back load. Although insulin sensitivy is so high from not getting carbs in all day he says you can still benefit from doing all of the carbs at night even without training. It just isn't quite as efficient as when training in the evening.

 

[The Solution]

Well if backloading you may find you have a higher carb tolerance than spreading them through out the day. I do not do well with higher carbs regardless of caloric intake. Fat has to be very low for me to do well physically on high carbs, but I tend to have blood sugar issues when doing it that way. However the carb backloading approach really helps with those insulin response issues. It's just that I train very early in the AM and would need to train again in the evening to really take complete advantage of the back load. Although insulin sensitivy is so high from not getting carbs in all day he says you can still benefit from doing all of the carbs at night even without training. It just isn't quite as efficient as when training in the evening.

Not true
if you train early and backload you fuel your stores for early morning training. hence why i do it and fasted training.

Ever read up on Borge?

http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/vforums/content.php?108-The-Biorhythm-Diet

- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

-- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

-- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

 

[Johnston]

Is there any specific guidance on how much fat would be considered OK in the evening with that advice? Hard to cut it out entirely obviously.

 

[RecompMan]

Well if backloading you may find you have a higher carb tolerance than spreading them through out the day. I do not do well with higher carbs regardless of caloric intake. Fat has to be very low for me to do well physically on high carbs, but I tend to have blood sugar issues when doing it that way. However the carb backloading approach really helps with those insulin response issues. It's just that I train very early in the AM and would need to train again in the evening to really take complete advantage of the back load. Although insulin sensitivy is so high from not getting carbs in all day he says you can still benefit from doing all of the carbs at night even without training. It just isn't quite as efficient as when training in the evening.

I notice I work best this way

1/2 my protein and all my fat morning with post work out carbs at 25g w bcaa. After 30 min I slam my protein fat

At night I do all my carbs 225, and the rest of my protein

It works best for me that way.

 

[The Solution]

Is there any specific guidance on how much fat would be considered OK in the evening with that advice? Hard to cut it out entirely obviously.

Keep it minimal. if you have a whole egg dont fret...

 

[MrKleen73]

Not true
if you train early and backload you fuel your stores for early morning training. hence why i do it and fasted training.

Ever read up on Borge?

http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/vforums/content.php?108-The-Biorhythm-Diet

- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

-- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

-- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

All of these points are basically exactly what I just said about carb backloading changing the game. I had not read that link but will. I got my info from Keifer's Carb Back Loading vids and articles where he discusses this in depth. If you reread what I said starting with "However Carb Back Loading approach really helps with those insulin issues" you will see I expressed the same sentiment you just did in the bullet points.

To clarify when spreading my carbs out throughout the day I have to keep my fats very low or I will gain fat. I can eat the same amount of calories with high fat and lower carbs and not gain fat due to no insulin signal for storage. My insulin issues tell the body to store that fat when eaten together throughout the day. If I keep fat low I get blood sugar issues from nothing slowing down the carbs entering my system. So I end up hypoglycemic. If back loading the game is changed and carbs are tolerated much better.

As far as the workout timing comments I made, you have a bullet point up there that specifically states the training has an effect. Quite simply exercise induced Glut4 translocation only last for a few hours post training. This increases muscular nutrient uptake on its own and is more synergistic with muscular insulin sensitivity.

Even though the fat cells are less insulin sensitive at night the muscle is still starving for carbs and insulin sensitivity in them will still be high since insulin has not been high throughout the day. So yes it is still effective training fasted in the morning, but is considered more effective when training in the afternoon or evening to further increase storage in the muscle via exercise induced Glut4 translocation.

 

[dieseljay74]

All of these points are basically exactly what I just said about carb backloading changing the game. I had not read that link but will. I got my info from Keifer's Carb Back Loading vids and articles where he discusses this in depth. If you reread what I said starting with "However Carb Back Loading approach really helps with those insulin issues" you will see I expressed the same sentiment you just did in the bullet points. To clarify when spreading my carbs out throughout the day I have to keep my fats very low or I will gain fat. I can eat the same amount of calories with high fat and lower carbs and not gain fat due to no insulin signal for storage. My insulin issues tell the body to store that fat when eaten together throughout the day. If I keep fat low I get blood sugar issues from nothing slowing down the carbs entering my system. So I end up hypoglycemic. If back loading the game is changed and carbs are tolerated much better. As far as the workout timing comments I made, you have a bullet point up there that specifically states the training has an effect. Quite simply exercise induced Glut4 translocation only last for a few hours post training. This increases muscular nutrient uptake on its own and is more synergistic with muscular insulin sensitivity. Even though the fat cells are less insulin sensitive at night the muscle is still starving for carbs and insulin sensitivity in them will still be high since insulin has not been high throughout the day. So yes it is still effective training fasted in the morning, but is considered more effective when training in the afternoon or evening to further increase storage in the muscle via exercise induced Glut4 translocation.

Well said. I seem to be reacting to this very similar.
All fats and protein for me all day until I train around 5-6 pm and then it's open season on the carbs. I of course take in a lot of protein along with them.
If I keep protein high throughout the day and manipulate carbs/ fats at the right times I do well.
I also stop slamming carbs or any food for that matter around 9 PM. Then I fast until noon-1pm the following day.
So essentially it's a IF/BL combo for me

 

[The Solution]

Well said. I seem to be reacting to this very similar.
All fats and protein for me all day until I train around 5-6 pm and then it's open season on the carbs. I of course take in a lot of protein along with them.
If I keep protein high throughout the day and manipulate carbs/ fats at the right times I do well.
I also stop slamming carbs or any food for that matter around 9 PM. Then I fast until noon-1pm the following day.
So essentially it's a IF/BL combo for me

i do the same even if i train upon waking, either way having a P+F meal post-workout does not bother me in the morning for my first meal.
the carbs from the last meal carry over and store the glycogen stores for early AM Training.

 

[dieseljay74]

i do the same even if i train upon waking, either way having a P+F meal post-workout does not bother me in the morning for my first meal. the carbs from the last meal carry over and store the glycogen stores for early AM Training.

Yeah I really am liking this routine I'm on.
So far no noticeable fat gains. It's crazy, the first few backloads it feels so gluttoness and wrong. So against everything we've all been told for years.
But then again, most doctors and dietitians preach what they learned in med school which is the same nonsense taught 50 years ago.

 

[Johnston]

i do the same even if i train upon waking, either way having a P+F meal post-workout does not bother me in the morning for my first meal. the carbs from the last meal carry over and store the glycogen stores for early AM Training.

What are you macros out of curiosity?

 

[The Solution]

What are you macros out of curiosity?

250P / 400-370C / 55-60F (Training/Non)

 

[RecompMan]

250P / 400-370C / 55-60F (Training/Non)

Can't wait to get my carbs there on training days!!!

I'm increasing by 25 every 10-14 days

 

[Johnston]

250P / 400-370C / 55-60F (Training/Non)

Apart from the carbs, that's about where I am. What happens if you bump your fats up on rest days? I have seen some people push up to 120-30g on rest days (keeping their carbs under 100g). Any merit in this you think, or is it purely down to the individual?

 

[The Solution]

Apart from the carbs, that's about where I am. What happens if you bump your fats up on rest days? I have seen some people push up to 120-30g on rest days (keeping their carbs under 100g). Any merit in this you think, or is it purely down to the individual?

No merit, Cycling kcals does not do much in all honesty its total kcals bro
I dont respond well to higher fat so i dont cycle my fats. It bloats me and makes me feel horrible and my performance sucks.

Bringing kcals down on days off from the gym impairs recovery, hence why my kcals stay consistent.

 

[Johnston]

There's an interesting LG thread on Reddit in which several of Martin's clients have posted with fat macros around that level on rest days (as recommended by him), so it's interesting. I guess it is an individualistic thing though.

 

[tylershields]

I just started this routine and am jacked to see where it gets me! I was just wondering do you guys follow the + -20% in kcals religiously or do you follow different protocols? And what about cardio. Lift days and off days? That's what I'm struggling with the most right now...that and consuming my bulk calories without running to the ice cream isle ?

 

[The Solution]

There's an interesting LG thread on Reddit in which several of Martin's clients have posted with fat macros around that level on rest days (as recommended by him), so it's interesting. I guess it is an individualistic thing though.

Exactly
People WORSHIP the outline on his webpage like it has to be followed. Thats not true, everyone is different.
If people feel like crap on higher fat why would you cycle?
If people feel better eating more kcals on rest days and evening off training days by only a bit more kcals (25-50g more carbs) then rock it out

Personally for me:
Higher fat = bloating/less performance/less energy
Cycling Kcals = Increased hunger and decreased recovery on off days
Keeping kcals pretty close = better workouts, better energy

 

[saggy321]

Exactly
People WORSHIP the outline on his webpage like it has to be followed. Thats not true, everyone is different.
If people feel like crap on higher fat why would you cycle?
If people feel better eating more kcals on rest days and evening off training days by only a bit more kcals (25-50g more carbs) then rock it out

Personally for me:
Higher fat = bloating/less performance/less energy
Cycling Kcals = Increased hunger and decreased recovery on off days
Keeping kcals pretty close = better workouts, better energy

I agree. Wasn't the point of it, much like 'eat stop eat, to offer an alternative to paradigm of six small meals equally spaced throughout the day. He was never dogmatic about it as if the 16/8 was the only or the most effective method of losing fat.

 

[Rosie Chee]

I just started this routine and am jacked to see where it gets me! I was just wondering do you guys follow the + -20% in kcals religiously or do you follow different protocols? And what about cardio. Lift days and off days? That's what I'm struggling with the most right now...that and consuming my bulk calories without running to the ice cream isle ?

I don't - I just use the 16-hour fast/8-hour eating window (mostly - and now back to this "religiously", since anything else makes me feel not great) and everything else is ME LOL. You have to manipulate it for YOU specifically - start with the "baseline" and go from there re what works keeping and what does not discarding.

~Rosie~

 

[MrKleen73]

250P / 400-370C / 55-60F (Training/Non)

I mentioned for me to go high carb I had to stay low fat or I gain more fat and you said this was untrue. However your set up is a low fat macro set up with high carbs. What was it that made you say my statement was untrue if it is what you practice?

 

[MrKleen73]

Is there any specific guidance on how much fat would be considered OK in the evening with that advice? Hard to cut it out entirely obviously.

Depends on who you are following, Kiefer suggests dirty carbs, fat is not really much of a consideration at all/ The one that The Solution does keeps fats to a minimum during that time. The reality of it is that saturated fats should probably not be consumed in mass quantity but other forms of fat are not as much of an issue other than caloric content. Saturated fats don't really need to be converted to be stored, however mono, and poly-unsaturated fats have to be converted to be stored as fat. This conversion process does not begin to take place until the glycogen levels in the muscle are full. It is a biological process. Since you are depleted when you begin eating the carbs in the first place this is not a major factor in the situation at all.

Keifer has you go through a process when you begin the Carb Back Loading Diet. You weigh yourself then deplete yourself for a period of time and weigh yourself again. Then he has an equation based on the amount of weight lost in water and glycogen during the depletion to figure out how many carbs you should take in during your back loads.

Again it is all very personal and more importantly comes down to what can you stick too over the long haul.

 

[Johnston]

Yeah I'm familiar with Kiefer's work and CBL. I tried it for a while but never quite got on with it. Found it more of a faff than LG to be honest, which is a better fit for me. I also don't like his sales tactics, and a lot of his 'science' is a bit pseudo, and simply how HE has interpreted it. Also, the emphasis on eating as dirty as you want in your backload doesn't sit well with me... I don't even care if it works in getting you lean (which it certainly won't for everyone), it's simply not healthy. Besides, a lot of it is just clever marketing to sell his book... if you read CBL he doesn't exactly advocate the big dirty binges most people assume it does. What annoys me most though is that it almost asserts eating a 'clean' diet won't get you results, which is just utter absurdity.

 

[dieseljay74]

Yeah I'm familiar with Kiefer's work and CBL. I tried it for a while but never quite got on with it. Found it more of a faff than LG to be honest, which is a better fit for me. I also don't like his sales tactics, and a lot of his 'science' is a bit pseudo, and simply how HE has interpreted it. Also, the emphasis on eating as dirty as you want in your backload doesn't sit well with me... I don't even care if it works in getting you lean (which it certainly won't for everyone), it's simply not healthy. Besides, a lot of it is just clever marketing to sell his book... if you read CBL he doesn't exactly advocate the big dirty binges most people assume it does. What annoys me most though is that it almost asserts eating a 'clean' diet won't get you results, which is just utter absurdity.

I think you nailed it man. I feel it not only jeopardizes you overall health to eat complete crap food on your BL's.
I'm all for getting lean bit not at the expense of an early heart attack

 

[Johnston]

I think you nailed it man. I feel it not only jeopardizes you overall health to eat complete crap food on your BL's.
I'm all for getting lean bit not at the expense of an early heart attack

Exactly. Whatever you can say about CBL, no matter what science can be used to validate its approach, the fact remains as human beings we have not evolved to eat the crap that it advocates, bottom line. Take IF, paleo, keto... pretty much any other tried and tested approach and you can see an evolutionary reason why it would work in a healthy way, with solid science to back this up. Whatever short term benefits you may get from CBL, I don't think anyone can say what the potential negatives are 10-20 years down the line, but I don't want to be a guinea pig for it!

 

[tylershields]

I don't - I just use the 16-hour fast/8-hour eating window (mostly - and now back to this "religiously", since anything else makes me feel not great) and everything else is ME LOL. You have to manipulate it for YOU specifically - start with the "baseline" and go from there re what works keeping and what does not discarding. ~Rosie~

I noticed that about this program. It's very flexible and from what I've read throughout the thread and people adapt to what fits them best..

 

[The Solution]

I mentioned for me to go high carb I had to stay low fat or I gain more fat and you said this was untrue. However your set up is a low fat macro set up with high carbs. What was it that made you say my statement was untrue if it is what you practice?

Does not matter how high or low my carbs get
when my fat gets above anything like 60-70g i get bloated, horrible energy and lack of gym perforamnce. Your comment was related to overall kcals correct? i know you swing calories ya?
even if i swung my off days to higher fat i feel horrible and feel awful all day long and bloated like no tomorrow.

 

[The Solution]

Exactly. Whatever you can say about CBL, no matter what science can be used to validate its approach, the fact remains as human beings we have not evolved to eat the crap that it advocates, bottom line. Take IF, paleo, keto... pretty much any other tried and tested approach and you can see an evolutionary reason why it would work in a healthy way, with solid science to back this up. Whatever short term benefits you may get from CBL, I don't think anyone can say what the potential negatives are 10-20 years down the line, but I don't want to be a guinea pig for it!

Read this brother...

http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/vforums/content.php?108-The-Biorhythm-Diet

"
-- Save up carbs for the last meal(s) of the day. Some will find it uncomfortable to eat a lot of food just before going to bed, so eat the biggest meal some 2-3hrs pre-bedtime with an optional protein snack with 10-30g of carbs just before hitting the sack if you’re in a bulking phase. I think a longer fast is beneficial if you’re in a fat loss phase, so skip this snack unless you’re very hungry. Fat intake should be low at these meals, so I generally stick to chicken/turkey, lean fish or some protein pudding (my favourite) where I blend a whey/casein-blend with various flavours into a huge bowl of rice with pumpkin pie spice, cinnamon etc. Put it in the freezer for (r)icecream. Rice- and buckwheat pancakes (I stay gluten-free) with various toppings is also a favourite, just limit the recipe to 1-2 eggs. Sweet potato with stevia and cinnamon. Potato wedges with barbecue sauce. I’m sure you can find your own recipes here, just think high carb, moderate protein, low fat."

 

[MrKleen73]

Does not matter how high or low my carbs get
when my fat gets above anything like 60-70g i get bloated, horrible energy and lack of gym perforamnce. Your comment was related to overall kcals correct? i know you swing calories ya?
even if i swung my off days to higher fat i feel horrible and feel awful all day long and bloated like no tomorrow.

Makes sense on how you feel.

I do well with the toggling, I don't think it is for everyone but I like it. I use the lower calories to avoid doing tons of cardio. With my family schedule the less time I need to be at the gym the better for me. So adjusting calories down on off days works very well for me as a convenience factor and I get great results.
Johnston I would imagine most people do not eat ridiculously dirty on CBL, or should I say body / health conscious people. However the key point I was making is to keep saturated fats specifically to a minimum when taking in a massive influx of carbohydrates. I do not see healthy fat sources as problematic to health at all. Even when taken in with carbohydrates. Not recommending 30-40 grams of fats in the backload, just stating it does not have to be extremely low to be effective or healthy either. My idea of dirty eats now is different than others since I have always had to watch carb intake and specifically High GI foods. Now some rice pudding with skim milk, brown rice syrup and raisins would be considered "dirty" or the use of BBQ sauce which I love and can now add to otherwise bland foods. Having a bagel with fruit spread, or the occasional sherbet. I used to avoid white rice, now I will use white rice because I could not get my carbs in eating brown rice. Just fills me up too much.
Sure during a bulking period or a day or two I want to have that stuff the diet is much more forgiving. I have had a piece of pecan pie the last two nights with no damage to my condition. Could I do that endlessly no think not. However the back loading allows for more freedom to have something here and there without any worry or guilt.

As far as the health portion of it, the biggest problem health-wise with nutrition tends to result from excess insulin. Dietary cholesterol is responsible for less than 2% of the cholesterol in the body the rest is made by the liver and is severely increased by excess insulin. It also increases blood pressure and a plethora of other things. Both forms of the CBL diet address that issue via lower insulin levels throughout the day. So the large spike in the evening is not going to cause these problems because insulin sensitivity remains high with only one large spike a day. Even someone following the dirtiest version of CBL imaginable is going to have pretty good health markers in that respect. Not advocating all out debauchery but there is middle ground here that should be recognized by people looking at these diets as lifestyle diets. My last bloods were taken when I was actually following the CBL eating lowfat pop tarts, sweet cereals, sherbet and gelato as a regular part of the diet and all of my health markers were stellar. Fasted Glucose 80, a good HDL/LDL ratio with total lipids at 164, bp 172/72 resting heart rate of 54. So I don't think it is as unhealthy is one might think even with all of the junk I was eating considering they had all improved. I do eat "cleaner" now but because I am trying to get more starches in during the back load for total muscle volume, not because it was unhealthy or I felt bad doing it.

That being said, as a bodybuilder many probably want to err on the side of caution. Keep things as clean as they can and know that they feel in control of each facet of the process. I enjoy the self experimentation to see what works well for me without being dogmatic about any one way to do things. For the most part people are looking for a lifestyle diet that has a balance of convenience, effectiveness and livability. Even in here I think we can all agree the nutrition part of all of this can be daunting and is typically the point of failure for most. So any effective way that makes things easily livable is a good way.

 

[The Solution]

My idea of dirty eats now is different than others since I have always had to watch carb intake and specifically High GI foods. Now some rice pudding with skim milk, brown rice syrup and raisins would be considered "dirty" or the use of BBQ sauce which I love and can now add to otherwise bland foods. Having a bagel with fruit spread, or the occasional sherbet. I used to avoid white rice, now I will use white rice because I could not get my carbs in eating brown rice. Just fills me up too much.

You realize how easy it is to make healthy rice pudding or bread pudding ?
Almond Milk, eggs, bread/rice and pretty much bake it, you can even throw in protein pudding.
BBQ sauce can be like 5g of carbs per serving, so thats not really dirty.

The only thing Brown has over white rice is that it has a touch of fiber. Either either wont make a difference honestly

have you ever read this?

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

 

[MrKleen73]

You realize how easy it is to make healthy rice pudding or bread pudding ?
Almond Milk, eggs, bread/rice and pretty much bake it, you can even throw in protein pudding.
BBQ sauce can be like 5g of carbs per serving, so thats not really dirty.

The only thing Brown has over white rice is that it has a touch of fiber. Either either wont make a difference honestly

have you ever read this?

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

No, but that is an excellent article! Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I was actually trying to state that "dirty" is kind of relative. I would say the rice pudding I mentioned was clean especially by back loading standards. Very low fat, natural sugars and fruit. However by my old or other's current standards it would be considered "dirty" because of the sugar content regardless of the sources. That is why I mention my dirty is a little different than others would consider dirty. The things that are dirty to me now are just what I consider cheat foods like the Pecan Pie I mentioned in the previous post. Pretty much if you see me putting quotation marks around a single word that means I consider it is too opinion based to be considered factual or even measurable.

Yeah white rice just has a higher GI due to less fiber that is about where it stops. I used to consider it a cheat or dirty food because I was conditioned to think anything with moderate to high GI was "dirty" and if there was a whole grain option that was indeed the only option.

My favorite BBQ sauce is Sweet Baby Rays it has a pretty good amount of brown sugar in it. Once off limits but now in reasonable use not so bad. Sure can make chicken easier to get down after eating it week in and week out. Is there one you recommend with lower sugar content? I will give anything a shot to see how it is.

I see you choose almond milk with the rice pudding does that mean you do not drink milk? I don't have any gastric issues with it myself, but I also like to use Almond Milk earlier in the day with a shake to give a little consistency.

Do you count fiber as carbs during your early hours or do you have things like almonds, or green veggies during the day before your back load. I know some only do protein and fats, and others don't count the fiber in things towards carb counts.

 

[jswain34]

Kleen, as far as the bbq sauce goes, ive been using Stubbs original. It is kinda has a barbecue/ketchup combo taste but theres no HFCS and i think theres only 4g of sugar per serving. Its what ive been using as of late in my pretty much go to CBL dinner of chicken cut up in 2 cups of jasmine rice with barbecue sauce and jalapeños mixed all together. Might wanna give it a shot.

 

[Johnston]

On the subject of food variety, I came across this recently... loads of tasty ideas!

http://www.instavillage.com/u/leangainsmeals/

 

[The Solution]

No, but that is an excellent article! Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I was actually trying to state that "dirty" is kind of relative. I would say the rice pudding I mentioned was clean especially by back loading standards. Very low fat, natural sugars and fruit. However by my old or other's current standards it would be considered "dirty" because of the sugar content regardless of the sources. That is why I mention my dirty is a little different than others would consider dirty. The things that are dirty to me now are just what I consider cheat foods like the Pecan Pie I mentioned in the previous post. Pretty much if you see me putting quotation marks around a single word that means I consider it is too opinion based to be considered factual or even measurable.

Yeah white rice just has a higher GI due to less fiber that is about where it stops. I used to consider it a cheat or dirty food because I was conditioned to think anything with moderate to high GI was "dirty" and if there was a whole grain option that was indeed the only option.

You realize that nobody just eats rice alone so when you add a protein or fat source the GI is nearly cut in half and has 0 significant impact right?

http://alanaragon.com/glycemic-index

My favorite BBQ sauce is Sweet Baby Rays it has a pretty good amount of brown sugar in it. Once off limits but now in reasonable use not so bad. Sure can make chicken easier to get down after eating it week in and week out. Is there one you recommend with lower sugar content? I will give anything a shot to see how it is.


if you get 10g of carbs from BBQ Sauce your diet is not going out the window bud you will be ok re-read the article again from alan

I see you choose almond milk with the rice pudding does that mean you do not drink milk? I don't have any gastric issues with it myself, but I also like to use Almond Milk earlier in the day with a shake to give a little consistency.

Less lactaid , settles much easier than regular milk, use regular if you wish. the sugars in milk are 100% fine, sugars are not bad a little bit will be beneficial and milk is loaded with calcium, vitamin D which are great sources

Do you count fiber as carbs during your early hours or do you have things like almonds, or green veggies during the day before your back load. I know some only do protein and fats, and others don't count the fiber in things towards carb counts.

I could all carbs, veggies have carbs i count them all. I aim to get 40g of fiber a day which is good for the body.
I eat veggies everyday. I eat 370-400g of carbs a day, not every other day EVERYDAY
i follow the Bioryhthm approach as i already linked with higher P+F meals earlier in the day and P+C meals later, if i have 10-15g of fat in those P+C meals i am not stressing because it wont really matter total kcals do, not if you allocate 5g of fat or 15g of fat into the meal.

Carbs in Veggies, Proteins, Fruits etc should all be counted because they are calories. Fiber is still digested. If you choose not to count carbs from sources you are not tracking 100% nor all your calories
like people who do not count fish oils as fat even though they are
people who do not count BCAA's but yet each g of BCAA = 1g of protein.

So yes they all add up.

 

[dieseljay74]

I could all carbs, veggies have carbs i count them all. I aim to get 40g of fiber a day which is good for the body. I eat veggies everyday. I eat 370-400g of carbs a day, not every other day EVERYDAY i follow the Bioryhthm approach as i already linked with higher P+F meals earlier in the day and P+C meals later, if i have 10-15g of fat in those P+C meals i am not stressing because it wont really matter total kcals do, not if you allocate 5g of fat or 15g of fat into the meal. Carbs in Veggies, Proteins, Fruits etc should all be counted because they are calories. Fiber is still digested. If you choose not to count carbs from sources you are not tracking 100% nor all your calories like people who do not count fish oils as fat even though they are people who do not count BCAA's but yet each g of BCAA = 1g of protein. So yes they all add up.

Excellent point about the fish oil. I was just talking to some family members this Thanksgiving about that. There's a substantial amount of fat in those little bastards.

 

[The Solution]

Excellent point about the fish oil. I was just talking to some family members this Thanksgiving about that. There's a substantial amount of fat in those little bastards.

Thats why it is listed on the side of the bottle

 

[Rodja]

I never bother to count carbs from veggies. Most of them are inconsequential and I find it to lead to more OCD-like behavior and losing focus on the big picture. On that note, I also don't count complete proteins either (e.g. oats, rice, etc.).