Absolutely my thinking and experience from using Stano to combat lethargy before.
It is not a bad combo for growth at all as 1-Test is highly anabolic but not the best combo if trying to combat lethargy since 1-Andro based products are not overly androgenic, and have been known to cause lethargy on their own.
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Agreed. I go through the same thing so I am using the mirror more then only stepping on for check ins or when I look really lean and am often surprised by the numbers on the scale!
Please do not come into my thread and disparage others or treat them as if they are inferior... Especially when your own understanding of this particular products appropriate use in this scenario is questionable considering 1-Andro based products are widely known to cause lethargy...
Correct!!!!!
Simply put 1-Andro/1-Alpha converts to 1-Testosterone which yes is a "derivative of DHT" but not highly androgenic in nature like DHT and should not be confused as such.
In actuality, 1-Test is a very anabolic compound with lower androgenic properties, 1-Test has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 200/100 which means milligram for milligram it is twice as anabolic as testosterone and equal to testosterone in androgenic action. The conversion rate of 1-Andro products are indeed high enough to increase anabolism however not the case for androgenic activity once shutdown of the HPTA system begins to occur and testosterone levels are lowered. This is why you see in many 1-Andro based product logs where the loggers experience both lethargy and a drop in libido once shut down begins.
As much as I enjoy 1-Alpha, knowing this I would never recommend it as a testosterone base as it simply is not androgenic enough to be highly successful in that particular use at any reasonably assumed conversion rate. Although Androsterone products can convert to DHT, 1-Andro does not, it was modified so that it converts to the higher anabolic 1-Testosterone and is targeted toward growth. So if he was intending to fight lethargy with that combination it was a poor choice as it would compound the situation not aid in it.
I myself have used 1-Alpha as a bridge between methyls not to regain that feel good feeling or combat lethargy but instead to increase anabolism. That way I did not lose any of the gains during the bridge. That is a more appropriate use of the product in any type of cycle supporting scenario, and one it actually shines in so long as HPTA recovery during the bridge is not part of the goal.
Now DHT has an anabolic/androgenic ratio of 152/268 meaning milligram for milligram it is 1.5 times more anabolic than testosterone and 2.7 times more androgenic than testosterone and 1-Testosterone. However it has 3-5 times the affinity to the androgenic receptor in every tissue of the body except skeletal muscle, making it ideal to combat sexual hormone based sides such as lethargy, gyno, loss of libido and increases neurological performance. In this scenario a product that converts to DHT is far superior for battling the side effects of shut down. Even with a similar conversion rate to 1-Andro based products DHT is roughly 3 times more potent on the androgenic side of things. However admittedly less anabolic simply in the fact most of it will bind to an AR outside of the skeletal muscle.
This is a huge part of the reason it was common practice to have people run EPI-V during the latter parts of the cycles, not only to finish off by cutting up but because it was beneficial to fight the sides of shutdown since it did convert to DHT.
For a little interesting reading here is a steroid profile on DHT Quoted from a Steroid Profile post on another forum...
"The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active androgen is actually dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).
5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.
This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, dihydrotestosterone is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.
A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.
Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle
Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).
So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.
It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress – not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.
I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.
Anti–Estrogen effects of DHT
One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.
Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.
Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens)."
Nothing wrong with sticking with what works for you, heck it is one of the best ways to go.
Okay on to more important things, good things are happening to my physique and I like it. I am leaning up while becoming fuller at the same time. Hard not to get excited about where things are going at this point! I am leaner than last week and I am up in weight. All of this on 2100 calories a day with 2450 on my high carb days. The anabolics are doing way more than I expected at this point and I expect to be at or under 6% by 4 weeks out if things keep going at this pace.