is amentoflavone bunk??

[kissdadookie]

Lets talk flavone bioavailability.

Most non-methylated flavones are poorly bioavailable directly.

Most non-methylated flavones will however be the benefactor of methylation during metabolism.

There are multiple studies documenting oral flavones methylated metabolites being responsible for their benefits.

Additionally, in a couple of studies, co-ingestion of a flavone with a methy transferase inhibitor eliminated the presence of the methylated metabolites, as well as the effects of the ingredient.

--

I think it highly likely that Amentoflavones effects are the result of a metabolite, and not the ingredient itself.

But the metabolites don't seem to be good at getting past the gut as they apparently get expelled (going by what No_Hype has posted). Plus the in vitro studies have been on amentoflavones action with it being intact.

To clarify, for it to exhibit the MOAs suggested in the studies for amentoflavone (basically all in vitro), oral administration of it does not appear to be able to do that at the doses currently being supplemented with. This is not to discount potential ergogenic benefits via other possible mechanisms (though these would of course be unknown mechanisms as there does not seem to be data for it), just that the calcium release mechanism does not appear plausible after seeing the bioavailability information that came out. Which brings to question if there is any actual acute strength gains people are reporting from the first few doses (tissue saturation could be a plausible point, but that would require build up over time from regular use).

 

[GreenMachineX]

trouble maker! GMX & late for the party to boot

I know right! lol

 

[De__eB]

But the metabolites don't seem to be good at getting past the gut as they apparently get expelled (going by what No_Hype has posted). Plus the in vitro studies have been on amentoflavones action with it being intact.

To clarify, for it to exhibit the MOAs suggested in the studies for amentoflavone (basically all in vitro), oral administration of it does not appear to be able to do that at the doses currently being supplemented with. This is not to discount potential ergogenic benefits via other possible mechanisms (though these would of course be unknown mechanisms as there does not seem to be data for it), just that the calcium release mechanism does not appear plausible after seeing the bioavailability information that came out.

Here's an example with a similar compound:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23445871
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24858680

In vitro studies show 7,8-DMF has effects on trkb receptor.

In vivo study shows that oral 7,8-DMF has same effects, and that both 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone and 7-Hydroxy,8-Methoxyfavone were found past the BBB.

Same In vivo study shows that COMT (methyl transferase) inhibition eliminated the presence of 7-Hydroxy,8-Methoxyflavone past the BBB (as expected), and also negated all of the effects of the compound.

--

-Poorly bioavable flavonid
-Has effects at the receptor
-Gets methylated during metabolism
-Methylated metabolite is the one that actually gets things done as a result of oral administration.

--

Side note, you should probably list your company affiliation.

 

[nattydisaster]

Below is Mr Coopers general response. This is adopted from another thread here on AM, as well as a summary of other posts on the internet. One can draw their own conclusions based on everything presented from everyone.

First, there's data showing the amentoflavone solo has poor bioavailability and membrane permeability, but that it is significantly enhanced when ingested as part of a plant extract. This could be due to many things, like other substrates in the plant competing for PgP or efflux pumps. Secondly, there is data showing that amentoflavone's chief metabolite, the conjugated form, has bioactivity of its own. Finally, the compound has a high Vd and thus can progressively saturate tissues due to high tissue retention (analagous to curcumin -> low BV, high tissue distribution), so continuous use should yield improved results.

This is, of course, a simple view of things.

The bottom line is this: the bioavailability of amentoflavone is close to zero with a very rapid clearance, but the study explicitly states that the bioactive form of amentoflavone is the conjugated metabolite. And it was found that the major excreted product was the conjugated metabolite. What this means is that you ingest amentoflavone, it enters portal circulation (bioavailability only applies to systemic circulation), hits the liver prior to systemic circulation, gets conjugated, so nothing enters systemic circulation except for the conjugate, which makes the free form amentoflavone bioavailability close to zero. The conjugate is rapidly cleared because it has a high volume of distribution. Clearance is not the same as terminal halflife; rather, clearance refers to how rapidly the compound leaves the plasma. In this case, since conjugated amentoflavone has a documented high volume of distribution, the clearance is rapid because it is rapidly distributing to tissues such as skeletal muscle, NOT being excreted. This is a GOOD thing because the target tissue of the compound is skeletal muscle/tissues in general, not the bloodstream. So in other words, we want the conjugate, and we want it to rapidly exit the bloodstream and enter tissues, and this PK study shows exactly that.

The studies that no hype is citing are conducted on amentoflavone in isolation. Studies on flavones and flavonoids show that their bioavailability is significantly enhanced when co-ingested with the other compounds found in the corresponding plants. The reason for this is that flavones are high affinity substrates for the strongest efflux pump in the human gastrointestinal tract known as P glycoprotein.

However when you ingest the whole plant,the other compounds that are also present happen to also be substrates for P-glycoprotein, which means that they compete for the Efflux pumps leading to saturation or semi saturation and Thus enhanced bioavailability of the target compound. This is why plant extracts of active compounds almost always outperform the isolated compound. An example or two include Naringin from grapefruit extract and Resveratrol from red wine, both of which are only orally active when consumed as part of a plant extract.

 

[kissdadookie]

Here's an example with a similar compound:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23445871
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24858680

In vitro studies show 7,8-DMF has effects on trkb receptor.

In vivo study shows that oral 7,8-DMF has same effects, and that both 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone and 7-Hydroxy,8-Methoxyfavone were found past the BBB.

Same In vivo study shows that COMT (methyl transferase) inhibition eliminated the presence of 7-Hydroxy,8-Methoxyflavone past the BBB (as expected), and also negated all of the effects of the compound.

--

-Poorly bioavable flavonid
-Has effects at the receptor
-Gets methylated during metabolism
-Methylated metabolite is the one that actually gets things done as a result of oral administration.

--

Side note, you should probably list your company affiliation.

Why would I note my bb.com rep affiliation when I don't represent them here? Doesn't make sense and would be against the rules I would think.

Would amentoflavone being a large highly polar molecule matter here and that the conjugates mostly were expelled into the feces and urine of the in vivo rat studies suggest otherwise?

 

[DarthGainer]

Mr Cooper is not ignoring anyone. He is probably busier than every member on this forum, and he was also out of town on top of that for the holidays

When he has time he will copy and paste what he said previously in this thread

I understand people have holidays.
What I don't understand is the need to say he's probably busier than anyone on this forum or that he will copy and paste what he said previously in this thread, Maybe just me seeing it the wrong way but seems childish.


Also are you not PES? Can you not go into further detail on this subject?

 

[kissdadookie]

Below is Mr Coopers general response. This is adopted from another thread here on AM, as well as a summary of other posts on the internet. One can draw their own conclusions based on everything presented from everyone.



The bottom line is this: the bioavailability of amentoflavone is close to zero with a very rapid clearance, but the study explicitly states that the bioactive form of amentoflavone is the conjugated metabolite. And it was found that the major excreted product was the conjugated metabolite. What this means is that you ingest amentoflavone, it enters portal circulation (bioavailability only applies to systemic circulation), hits the liver prior to systemic circulation, gets conjugated, so nothing enters systemic circulation except for the conjugate, which makes the free form amentoflavone bioavailability close to zero. The conjugate is rapidly cleared because it has a high volume of distribution. Clearance is not the same as terminal halflife; rather, clearance refers to how rapidly the compound leaves the plasma. In this case, since conjugated amentoflavone has a documented high volume of distribution, the clearance is rapid because it is rapidly distributing to tissues such as skeletal muscle, NOT being excreted. This is a GOOD thing because the target tissue of the compound is skeletal muscle/tissues in general, not the bloodstream. So in other words, we want the conjugate, and we want it to rapidly exit the bloodstream and enter tissues, and this PK study shows exactly that.

The study that No_Hype posted specifically stated that the conjugate forms were found to largely be expelled in urine and feces of the rats @ an oral dose of 300mg/kg (which is many many many many times what anybody is currently supplementing with), so wouldn't that suggest that at least in current supplement doses, the conjugates are pretty much not going to get into the system in any relevant amount?

But that still puzzles me at least for the calcium release MOA, because that study was using intact amentoflavone and culture. That MOA at least doesn't appear to be based on the conjugates? That's how I've interpreted it and I think that's why No_Hype was saying.

 

[De__eB]

Would amentoflavone being a large highly polar molecule matter here and that the conjugates mostly were expelled into the feces and urine of the in vivo rat studies suggest otherwise?

so if 90.7% of AMF turns into conjugates, and .13% of it is absorbed in tact, where did the other 9% go?

Could it be that it is metabolised via other routes such as methylation via COMT?

I don't actually know, since I don't think the data is there about amentoflavone specifically. But it would certainly not be unheard of, as it is an area of focus for multiple other flavonids for which poor oral bioavailability is a concern.

 

[sprintsss]

The stuff is placebo

 

[kissdadookie]

so if 90.7% of AMF turns into conjugates, and .13% of it is absorbed in tact, where did the other 9% go?

Could it be that it is metabolised via other routes such as methylation via COMT?

I don't actually know, since I don't think the data is there about amentoflavone specifically. But it would certainly not be unheard of, as it is an area of focus for multiple other flavonids for which poor oral bioavailability is a concern.

I'm not saying the stuff is 110% useless, I agree with you (and you went over my head there, lol) the conjugates (even in minutes amounts) could be doing something, but in regards to the proposed MOA, those have been in vitro culture studies using intact amentoflavone, so at least for that MOA, I don't see how the conjugates would be in play?

 

[jimbuick]

The study that No_Hype posted specifically stated that the conjugate forms were found to largely be expelled in urine and feces of the rats @ an oral dose of 300mg/kg (which is many many many many times what anybody is currently supplementing with), so wouldn't that suggest that at least in current supplement doses, the conjugates are pretty much not going to get into the system in any relevant amount?

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of that study but if the doses were that large wouldn't it be expected that excess be excreted in urine or fecal matter?

Skeletal muscle tissue (and every other tissue) can only hold so much, so excess is always excreted as waste. This holds true for everything ingested does it not?

 

[jimbuick]

The stuff is placebo

Is that a fact?

 

[kissdadookie]

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of that study but if the doses were that large wouldn't it be expected that excess be excreted in urine or fecal matter?

Skeletal muscle tissue (and every other tissue) can only hold so much, so excess is always excreted as waste. This holds true for everything ingested does it not?

I think the main point No_Hype made at the end was that for the calcium release MOA to be plausible, you would need appreciable amount of intact amentoflavone to make it into circulation (as that was what the studies on that subject used, culture bathed in amentoflavone).

No_Hype also pointed out that the conjugates was even more polar than the parent compound making it highly likely to be effluxed due to MRP2. All that I understand from that is that the stuff gets excreted if that is the case

 

[Auslifter]

3 caps of amento has become my go to. i started out on just 2 and saw amazing strength increases. tried it first when i bought Katana v1 and tried that, then norcodrene, then amentomax came out after 3-4 months of 2 added an extra cap. been on it since it's release and during that time, i have tested it with various other supps, even mistaken some of "epicathein-(-)'s" effects for it, as natty said when you come off you notice huge drops in strength quite fast and i was still taking follidrone, still saw those big drops. so i ran out of follidrone/myo, started taking amento again and lone and behold strength went back to where it was previously. i feel like epi-(-) products help only with endruance and repeat efforts of your sets more on isolation movements like curls, and higher rep sets or presses. actual raw strength and being able to make big jumps in weights on big compounds amento shines. infact, i even feel like using amentomax with stims, works best, and no GMS to help improve bioavailability of it, which is why i only use 1 scoop of High volume + 2 caps amentomax or komodo amento, and only on hyper days now, so i can make the most of it on strength based workouts when the pump dosen't really matter to me, and is usually great anyway. personally i miss cistamax really miss that allot having all that extra glycogen and breathing allot easier made for amazing strength and endruance paired with amento.

 

[De__eB]

I'm not saying the stuff is 110% useless, I agree with you (and you went over my head there, lol) the conjugates (even in minutes amounts) could be doing something, but in regards to the proposed MOA, those have been in vitro culture studies using intact amentoflavone, so at least for that MOA, I don't see how the conjugates would be in play?

If a compound works, it works. I don't have a ton of experience with amentoflavone as I've never used it in isolation, and I don't really see myself having the desire/time to take a couple of months of self study on it to see what I think.

I don't necessarily fault a company for quoting theorized MOAs from the papers they are referencing.

Maybe it's placebo, maybe it works.

It's not like AS/PES/USP were over the top marketing it or something.

They did some runs of it with AS, and it sold well, and got lots of repeat buys.

Based on demand, and the effects apparently being there for users, they made some more and put it in another product.

It's not like they're forcing it down people's throats or shilling it at ludicrous prices....

I'm not seeing why the outrage here, and I'm a big proponent of outrage

 

[sprintsss]

Is that a fact?

I bought two bottles worth and experimented with different type of dosages. The stuff didn't work for me at all. Waste of money and time

 

[NewAgeMayan]

co-ingestion of a flavone with a methy transferase inhibitor eliminated the presence of the methylated metabolites, as well as the effects of the ingredient.

So does this mean people could be ingesting an otherwise innoculous food/ingredient which renders AMF ineffective?

I obviously have no idea what a methy transferase inhibitor is in layman/everyday terms :/

 

[kissdadookie]

If a compound works, it works. I don't have a ton of experience with amentoflavone as I've never used it in isolation, and I don't really see myself having the desire/time to take a couple of months of self study on it to see what I think.

I don't necessarily fault a company for quoting theorized MOAs from the papers they are referencing.

Maybe it's placebo, maybe it works.

It's not like AS/PES/USP were over the top marketing it or something.

They did some runs of it with AS, and it sold well, and got lots of repeat buys.

Based on demand, and the effects apparently being there for users, they made some more and put it in another product.

It's not like they're forcing it down people's throats or shilling it at ludicrous prices....

I'm not seeing why the outrage here, and I'm a big proponent of outrage

Hey, I agree.

Was just sticking with the topic, lol, haven't posted about it outside of this specific thread.

 

[jimbuick]

I bought two bottles worth and experimented with different type of dosages. The stuff didn't work for me at all. Waste of money and time

So, because you didn't have good results with something means it is 100% placebo for anyone that does?

Guess creatine is garbage too, since some people don't respond to it.

 

[sprintsss]

The fact natty trying point the finger at the consumer wanting this stuff for sale as a single ingredient shows how confident he and the company is about the stuff lol

Y'all did it for us we understand its not your fault for pushing out this placebo pill lol

 

[sprintsss]

So, because you didn't have good results with something means it is 100% placebo for anyone that does?

Guess creatine is garbage too, since some people don't respond to it.

I don't care about anyone else

I care about my money and what I feel

It didn't work for me, I spend 40$ on the stuff I have the right to at least give my opinion on it

 

[De__eB]

So does this mean people could be ingesting an otherwise innoculous food/ingredient which renders AMF ineffective?

I obviously have no idea what a methy transferase inhibitor is in layman/everyday terms :/

Quasi-related, here's at least one ingredient that a few companies have actually specifically redefined as being a COMT inhibitor, that doesn't actually inhibit COMT in humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24972245

Because, this thread wasn't spicy enough yet!

 

[sprintsss]

I actually have a sealed bottle

Pay for delivery and it yours

 

[mw1]

I don't care about anyone else

I care about my money and what I feel

It didn't work for me, I spend 40$ on the stuff I have the right to at least give my opinion on it

That's true and is what the forums are for...to give feedback whether good or bad. I've bought 3 bottles of Amento and can't say I really have "noticed" anything as well but I also didn't use consistently so idk. I don't find trying stuff new as long as it's not a $70 (-)epi product

 

[jimbuick]

I don't care about anyone else

I care about my money and what I feel

It didn't work for me, I spend 40$ on the stuff I have the right to at least give my opinion on it

I agree, you definitely have the right to share your opinion on a product and I certainly have no problem with that.

My issue with what you said was that it wasn't stated as an opinion, you said it as if it was fact which it most certainly isn't.

 

[sprintsss]

That's true and is what the forums are for...to give feedback whether good or bad. I've bought 3 bottles of Amento and can't say I really have "noticed" anything as well but I also didn't use consistently so idk. I don't find trying stuff new as long as it's not a $70 (-)epi product

I give every product I buy a fair shot
, the stuff adds up so for it to become a staple it has to impress me . 90% of the stuff don't do much I just keep to the basics and rotate the hype products since im addicted to the fun of it .

I'm trying out ITPP next I hope it wins my heart

 

[sprintsss]

I agree, you definitely have the right to share your opinion on a product and I certainly have no problem with that.

My issue with what you said was that it wasn't stated as an opinion, you said it as if it was fact which it most certainly isn't.

N=1
With that 1 being me
Its as much fact I need to know the stuff don't work

I doubt my one liners with no scientific evidence is stopping anyone from buying it now so don't worry lol

 

[carmaf]

I don't have much to contribute in terms of the science, I just know that since the beginning of time there have always been "hot" new supplements that come out, get hyped, debunked, then laughed at years later....yet the cycle always repeats itself and it seems people never learn lol.

Seems like all the truly effective "supplements" are banned/controlled/illegal. Steroids/HGH have always been effective and I don't see why you would need much else except more effective steroids.

I know a bunch of people who take all the most "cutting edge" supplements in the world, and can't achieve anything close to what people were doing in the past without any of this stuff, or are anywhere close to an elite athlete even. They take it all and are still mediocre. The world's strongest/fastest/most powerful etc. men never took Amento and other such stuff, and never will.

 

[nattydisaster]

The fact natty trying point the finger at the consumer wanting this stuff for sale as a single ingredient shows how confident he and the company is about the stuff lol

Y'all did it for us we understand its not your fault for pushing out this placebo pill lol

That is not what I was saying. People were saying that we released the ingredient and hyped it up. I was explaining that we were not the ones who released it, nor did we hype it up. It was already "hyped up" before we released it. If we had no confidence in the ingredient then we would not have added it to our newest release.

I am sorry that the product did not work for you. If you'd like to return it to Analyzed Supplements for a refund then that is always an option. But just because a product does not work for one person does not mean that it is worthless, and the opposite is true as well. Just because an ingredient works amazing for one person doesn't mean it will for everyone

 

[nattydisaster]

Mr Cooper has asked me to add this point. I will add it in the post above as well:

The studies that no hype is citing are conducted on amentoflavone in isolation. Studies on flavones and flavonoids show that their bioavailability is significantly enhanced when co-ingested with the other compounds found in the corresponding plants. The reason for this is that flavones are high affinity substrates for the strongest efflux pump in the human gastrointestinal tract known as P glycoprotein.

However when you ingest the whole plant,the other compounds that are also present happen to also be substrates for P-glycoprotein, which means that they compete for the efflux pumps leading to saturation or semi saturation and thus enhanced bioavailability of the target compound. This is why plant extracts of active compounds almost always outperform the isolated compound. An example or two include Naringin from grapefruit extract and Resveratrol from red wine, both of which are only orally active when consumed as part of a plant extract.

 

[kissdadookie]

Mr Cooper has asked me to add this point. I will add it in the post above as well:

The studies that no hype is citing are conducted on amentoflavone in isolation. Studies on flavones and flavonoids show that their bioavailability is significantly enhanced when co-ingested with the other compounds found in the corresponding plants. The reason for this is that flavones are high affinity substrates for the strongest efflux pump in the human gastrointestinal tract known as P glycoprotein.

However when you ingest the whole plant,the other compounds that are also present happen to also be substrates for P-glycoprotein, which means that they compete for the Efflux pumps leading to saturation or semi saturation and Thus enhanced bioavailability of the target compound. This is why plant extracts of active compounds almost always outperform the isolated compound. An example or two include Naringin from grapefruit extract and Resveratrol from red wine, both of which are only orally active when consumed as part of a plant extract.

That would allow the conjugates to possibly make it into circulation, but the calcium release MOA (the MOA which is suggested for the acute strength increases from the first few doses) are based off of in vitro data incubating culture in intact amentoflavone, so, wouldn't the conjugates being possibly active and in circulation mean nothing in terms of supporting the calcium release MOA?

The amentoflavone itself appears to have very poor solubility to begin with along with very poor membrane penetration and it's highly polar as well as being a large molecule (tbh, I don't know chit about the importance of polarity, lulz) all need to be issues that needs to be overcome?

 

[jimbuick]

I don't have much to contribute in terms of the science, I just know that since the beginning of time there have always been "hot" new supplements that come out, get hyped, debunked, then laughed at years later....yet the cycle always repeats itself and it seems people never learn lol.

Seems like all the truly effective "supplements" are banned/controlled/illegal. Steroids/HGH have always been effective and I don't see why you would need much else except more effective steroids.

I know a bunch of people who take all the most "cutting edge" supplements in the world, and can't achieve anything close to what people were doing in the past without any of this stuff, or are anywhere close to an elite athlete even. They take it all and are still mediocre. The world's strongest/fastest/most powerful etc. men never took Amento and other such stuff, and never will.

This is a ridiculous argument.

Of course the world's best athletes don't use amentoflavone, why would they? They use AAS, insulin, HGH, etc.

Is this because supplements don't work? No. Its because they don't work as well as those other substances.

The thing about that though is that these supplements are for people who don't want to break the law or don't want to put those things into their bodies for a hobby. Most people aren't making a living through athletics, so why would they risk everything (lives, freedoms, health, etc.) for a hobby?

 

[mr.cooper69]

That would allow the conjugates to possibly make it into circulation, but the calcium release MOA (the MOA which is suggested for the acute strength increases from the first few doses) are based off of in vitro data incubating culture in intact amentoflavone, so, wouldn't the conjugates being possibly active and in circulation mean nothing in terms of supporting the calcium release MOA?

The amentoflavone itself appears to have very poor solubility to begin with along with very poor membrane penetration and it's highly polar as well as being a large molecule (tbh, I don't know chit about the importance of polarity, lulz) all need to be issues that needs to be overcome?

No, because the same principle applies and is again consistent with what we see for other flavonoids. That is, phase II hepatic enzymes can also be blocked by competing substrates.

Regardless, conjugates are often pharmacodynamically similar to the parent compound. The difference is pharmacokinetic, as conjugates are usually more hydrophilic

 

[Admin]

Friday night...talking about flavonoids.

 

[carmaf]

This is a ridiculous argument.

Of course the world's best athletes don't use amentoflavone, why would they? They use AAS, insulin, HGH, etc.

Is this because supplements don't work? No. Its because they don't work as well as those other substances.

The thing about that though is that these supplements are for people who don't want to break the law or don't want to put those things into their bodies for a hobby. Most people aren't making a living through athletics, so why would they risk everything (lives, freedoms, health, etc.) for a hobby?

So why wouldn't they take all the legal supplements in addition to the illegal ones? It's not like taking a steroid makes everything "lesser" than it no longer work. Tons of top level athletes use whey/creatine/vitamins etc., so why not all this other stuff as well? It's bc it's bull****. No supplement company is going to find something a much larger and more powerful pharmaceutical company can't find with their massive R&D budgets.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

MrC, as to things (food, beverage, whatever) which may prove detrimental to the efficacy of AMF, Im pretty sure its been said in the past that there is nothing that is known to be so. Would this still be your position?

 

[sprintsss]

No, because the same principle applies and is again consistent with what we see for other flavonoids. That is, phase II hepatic enzymes can also be blocked by competing substrates.

Regardless, conjugates are often pharmacodynamically similar to the parent compound. The difference is pharmacokinetic, as conjugates are usually more hydrophilic

Thoughts on itpp ?

 

[jimbuick]

So why wouldn't they take all the legal supplements in addition to the illegal ones? It's not like taking a steroid makes everything "lesser" than it no longer work. Tons of top level athletes use whey/creatine/vitamins etc., so why not all this other stuff as well? It's bc it's bull****. No supplement company is going to find something a much larger and more powerful pharmaceutical company can't find with their massive R&D budgets.

Which pharmaceutical company is using its R&D budgets for athletic performance?

The reason they wouldn't is simple economics, when you are already spending money on food, drugs, and other supplements why spend even more money on supplements that would not give anywhere near the benefit of buying more AAS or more HGH or even more food?

 

[sprintsss]

That is not what I was saying. People were saying that we released the ingredient and hyped it up. I was explaining that we were not the ones who released it, nor did we hype it up. It was already "hyped up" before we released it. If we had no confidence in the ingredient then we would not have added it to our newest release.

I am sorry that the product did not work for you. If you'd like to return it to Analyzed Supplements for a refund then that is always an option. But just because a product does not work for one person does not mean that it is worthless, and the opposite is true as well. Just because an ingredient works amazing for one person doesn't mean it will for everyone

Thanks for the offer but its cool
U guys were quick to fix a previous order that I messed up on, y'all customer service is top notch

Dopadex is a staple

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Friday night...talking about flavonoids.

#flavonerds

 

[jimbuick]

Thanks for the offer but its cool
U guys were quick to fix a previous order that I messed up on, y'all customer service is top notch

Dopadex is a staple

I'll take it though, I'd hate to see it wasted

 

[JudoJosh]

This is why plant extracts of active compounds almost always outperform the isolated compound.

Ping mr.cooper69, is this similar to how, l - dopa when supplemented via Mucuna Pruriens, is more bioactive then l - dopa itself? That is, taking isolated compound =|= plant extracts of compound?

 

[sprintsss]

I'll take it though, I'd hate to see it wasted

Lol well got a PM for it already if he don't go thru with it I'll pm u to get your info

 

[kissdadookie]

No, because the same principle applies and is again consistent with what we see for other flavonoids. That is, phase II hepatic enzymes can also be blocked by competing substrates.

Regardless, conjugates are often pharmacodynamically similar to the parent compound. The difference is pharmacokinetic, as conjugates are usually more hydrophilic

So, is amentoflavone highly water insoluble? So how does it even make it past that to get to the point where it can be processed with the other constituents? Stuff is over my head, just pointing out what No_Hype pointed out like 2 weeks ago that I didn't see a counterpoint to.

Way past my bedtime, stayed up late as I've been off yesterday for the long weekend

Going to check back tomorrow, happy belated new year folks!

 

[nattydisaster]

Ping mr.cooper69, is this similar to how, l - dopa when supplemented via Mucuna Pruriens, is more bioactive then l - dopa itself? That is, taking isolated compound =|= plant extracts of compound?

Yes. In the case of Mucuna there is also other compounds that have a positive effect on HPTA that are unrelated to L-DOPA. For some reason though, when I take lower % extracts of L-DOPA i get way more nauseous mg for mg than a high % L-DOPA. It may just be me

 

[Auslifter]

The fact natty trying point the finger at the consumer wanting this stuff for sale as a single ingredient shows how confident he and the company is about the stuff lol

Y'all did it for us we understand its not your fault for pushing out this placebo pill lol

you might of taken it to close to a meal, you might be on a rubbish training program, you might of had 0 sleep, there are 100's off different factors that can contribute as to why "it didn't work for me"

 

[carmaf]

Which pharmaceutical company is using its R&D budgets for athletic performance?

The reason they wouldn't is simple economics, when you are already spending money on food, drugs, and other supplements why spend even more money on supplements that would not give anywhere near the benefit of buying more AAS or more HGH or even more food?

It seems like it's always bodybuilders that will swear by/try anything and everything under the sun, but never any other athletes, and yet somehow, they get by just fine. Bodybuilding wasn't changed by any supplement, but rather by Dorian Yates bringing a whole new level of roid usage into the game and more effective roids/the rise of HGH/insulin abuse.

You've obviously have never been around elite level athletes. I've spoken to a certain infamous Canadian Olympic gold medalist. They would take anything if it meant it would give them an edge.....but first the stuff has to actually work. They spend thousands upon thousands on all the illegal/dangerous stuff, so it's "simple economics" that a 40 dollar bottle of AmentoMax will break their bank? I guess they prioritized their finances wrong.

All the effective supplements like creatine, caffeine, whey, etc. have stood the test of time for a reason, bc they are simple and they work.

I've said my piece, I'm not going to argue with you. It's your life, your body, your pocketbook. Do what you enjoy and works for you, as long as you enjoy doing it, bc life is short.

 

[sprintsss]

you might of taken it to close to a meal, you might be on a rubbish training program, you might of had 0 sleep, there are 100's off different factors that can contribute as to why "it didn't work for me"

Yea that's exactly it , hopefully they send you couple free bottles for being their cheerleader at least

 

[Auslifter]

Yea that's exactly it , hopefully they send you couple free bottles for being their cheerleader at least

no need just go 2 in the other day i bought myself. im not a cheerleader it works for me so i continue to use it. simple as that don't be butt hurt because you don't respond to it lol

 

[sprintsss]

no need just go 2 in the other day i bought myself. im not a cheerleader it works for me so i continue to use it. simple as that don't be butt hurt because you don't respond to it lol

Butt hurt? I think you need to be over 18 to take these type of supplements. Stick to creatine and whey until your at least 18 bro