is amentoflavone bunk??

[kissdadookie]

It is a little frustrating for the consumer when we haven't seen much in the way of rebuttal from any of the companies concerned. I think everyone understands that we are currently in the middle of hoildays so time is at a premium for some, but this topic has been ongoing for a number of months now and all I have really seen is brief counters and borderline ad hominem's (the latter of which I am guilty of as well).

Is the silence due to:

*not wanting to dig a hole further for oneself (ie the MoA of AMF is, at present, highly theoretical so people are reluctant to post due to fear of accusations of 'ad hoc sympathetics' due perhaps to historic errors?)

*the layman is considered incapable of understanding the pharmacokinetics involved (unlikely, given the science we are otherwise treated to by companies)

*there really is widespread placebo involved here (the companies are in too deep to backtrack out)

Or maybe a thorough rebuttal will be forthcoming *shrug*

Been glossing over the studies which were posted on the bb forum from the under the microscope thread, yeah, these studies appear to be looking at intact amentoflavone's actions on specific tissues and cell cultures and what not, so all in vitro. So this would suggest that for these effects which were noted in these studies to happen, you really would need for the amentoflavone to make it through the gut and if it needs to go through a pass in the liver, it also needs to stay intact and make it into circulation.

There's one in vivo study of it's effect on diabetic mice and it was effective at a small dose, but that dose was injected.

That bioavailibility issue appears to be the barrier of entry here for the compound to be effective in the body it would appear.

 

[jimbuick]

well i would take something like that with a grain of salt. but iirc, coop posted something that addressed the bioavailability issue, but not the the dosing issue.

I feel like coop has been saying positive things about amentoflavone since before he has been working with PES, and definitely before they had any products with it.

Ditto, but UnCut was a stim bomb. When I used their Beta Test (has amentoflavone in it) and Amentomax, I can't really say that I've noticed anything out of the ordinary, but I based my usage of amentoflavone off of the promising write up and my good experience with UnCut, but again, UnCut was a stim bomb.

There's also quite a few other ingredients in there with the stims in an undisclosed ratio mixture which can of course affect mood, etc.

Neuron also said he's never used the stuff himself and on the Q&A with PA section on another board, is pretty indifferent about it actually being of worth or not. Only thing he's ever really said about bioavailbility was that in the murine model, it was more bioavailable than other similar compounds, but if you look at the murine data, that's a huge dose for a lab mouse, if you translate that to a human equivalent dose, you're going to need a very very very large dose of it.

Can't discount that amentoflavone may have other properties though or maybe enhances stimulants one is taking with it, but based onhehe MOA suspected from it to illicit the proposed effects, pretty unlikely.

I don't remember uncut being a stim bomb, wasn't it something like 100mg a cap?

 

[kissdadookie]

I feel like coop has been saying positive things about amentoflavone since before he has been working with PES, and definitely before they had any products with it.



I don't remember uncut being a stim bomb, wasn't it something like 100mg a cap?

At least 100 mg per cap, higher IIRC, plus a good dose of y plus a good dose of higenamine iirc.

 

[Admin]

I feel like coop has been saying positive things about amentoflavone since before he has been working with PES, and definitely before they had any products with it.

True. As did many others.

 

[jimbuick]

At least 100 mg per cap, higher IIRC, plus a good dose of y plus a good dose of higenamine iirc.

From what dirk said to me when I first tried it, the y dose was incredibly low.

I could see it being a stim bomb if you used a lot of caps, but that is true for all products in this category.

 

[kissdadookie]

From what dirk said to me when I first tried it, the y dose was incredibly low.

I could see it being a stim bomb if you used a lot of caps, but that is true for all products in this category.

People noted that even 1 cap was a stim bomb for them, so there is that.

I used 3 caps throughout.

Which reminds me, I should probably buy another bottle to have around... but I'm torn between getting another bottle of UnCut or another bottle of AMPitropin...

 

[jimbuick]

People noted that even 1 cap was a stim bomb for them, so there is that.

I used 3 caps throughout.

I don't see how it could be, unless the higenamine dose is high (FWIW I don't know jack about higenamine).

Dirk said that the y dose was kept low so that they wouldn't have any negative effects from people that were sensitive to the ingredient.

I never used more than 2 for lifting and 1 for speed/cardio training, but I don't particularly like heavy stims and uncut never had a heavy stim effect for me.

 

[kissdadookie]

I don't see how it could be, unless the higenamine dose is high (FWIW I don't know jack about higenamine).

Dirk said that the y dose was kept low so that they wouldn't have any negative effects from people that were sensitive to the ingredient.

I never used more than 2 for lifting and 1 for speed/cardio training, but I don't particularly like heavy stims and uncut never had a heavy stim effect for me.

I sweated real good using the stuff.

Higenamine is a pretty strong stim, depending on what you mix it with and the amounts.

The product is alas, a prop blend, so we can only guess sadly enough.

 

[Jakey]

People noted that even 1 cap was a stim bomb for them, so there is that.

I used 3 caps throughout.

Which reminds me, I should probably buy another bottle to have around... but I'm torn between getting another bottle of UnCut or another bottle of AMPitropin...

Supposedly Uncut is getting discontinued, although I don't know why, still one of the best stims I've ever tried, can't see anything wrong with the formula.

Obviously depends on your personal tolerance build-up for AMP.

I sweated real good using the stuff.

Higenamine is a pretty strong stim, depending on what you mix it with and the amounts.

The product is alas, a prop blend, so we can only guess sadly enough.

The funny thing is higenamines half-life is miniscule.

 

[jimbuick]

Supposedly Uncut is getting discontinued, although I don't know why, still one of the best stims I've ever tried, can't see anything wrong with the formula.

Obviously depends on your personal tolerance build-up for AMP.

The funny thing is higenamines half-life is miniscule.

Yeah, I heard that. They have a different formulator now so I think they are redoing the whole line.


That's what I thought about higenamine, I had heard its half life was really short making it near worthless.

 

[Touey]

dook you really should make a resolution this year to begin posting a bit more

 

[kissdadookie]

dook you really should make a resolution this year to begin posting a bit more

On it.

Yeah, I heard that. They have a different formulator now so I think they are redoing the whole line.


That's what I thought about higenamine, I had heard its half life was really short making it near worthless.

The funny thing with these stims, same ingredients, different ratios and you end up getting completely different feels off them.

 

[Rodja]

I've been using Amentoflavone for over a year off and on for about a year now (ever since Norcodrene was available). Mood improves nearly every time I've taken it with or without caffeine. The direct strength increase has been hit or miss throughout usage, but work capacity increases with time, which could lead to a progressive increase in strength rather than an acute increase.

 

[SweetLou321]

At least 100 mg per cap, higher IIRC, plus a good dose of y plus a good dose of higenamine iirc.

I remember it being 135mg caff and 2mg total of all y sources per cap. Most stims hit me hard, i cant even drink a full monster but one cap pf uncut barely hits me.

 

[kissdadookie]

I remember it being 135mg caff and 2mg total of all y sources per cap. Most stims hit me hard, i cant even drink a full monster but one cap pf uncut barely hits me.

That's a lot of stims man, relative to it being just one cap. There's also higenmine IIRC in it. That's another stim.

 

[SweetLou321]

That's a lot of stims man, relative to it being just one cap. There's also higenmine IIRC in it. That's another stim.

Yes there is, idk how much of that however.

 

[konojo]

I've been using Amentoflavone for over a year off and on for about a year now (ever since Norcodrene was available). Mood improves nearly every time I've taken it with or without caffeine. The direct strength increase has been hit or miss throughout usage, but work capacity increases with time, which could lead to a progressive increase in strength rather than an acute increase.

well i'll look out more for the mood benefits then but this isn't what i bought amento for i take it alongside alcar, which also happens to boost my mood so it will be difficult to gauge.

 

[DarthGainer]

Just curious will bens post defending the whole sister company thing be the only PES input this thread will get then?

I'm not having a go or saying you guys need to but PES have really brought Amento into the spotlight so it would be nice to take part in the discussion.

Just to add, I never really notice strength gains with products so I can't comment on that as I'm not sure the extra rep I pushed out would have happened without the product or not. but as for the feel good feeling some guys seem to get I have never felt it from Norcodrene or High volume. Both good products for other reasons though.

 

[kissdadookie]

Just curious will bens post defending the whole sister company thing be the only PES input this thread will get then?

I'm not having a go or saying you guys need to but PES have really brought Amento into the spotlight so it would be nice to take part in the discussion.

Just to add, I never really notice strength gains with products so I can't comment on that as I'm not sure the extra rep I pushed out would have happened without the product or not. but as for the feel good feeling some guys seem to get I have never felt it from Norcodrene or High volume. Both good products for other reasons though.

One thing you will not see ANY company do is make definitive claims, FDA does not like that

Well, at least not the more "reputable" ones (reputable being subjective as well of course).

 

[NewAgeMayan]

The one person Im keen to hear a criticism of N_H's argument from is refusing to get into any specifics. A shame, as most would probably agree neuron to be largely impartial on this topic.

 

[Quadzilla99]

The one person Im keen to hear a criticism of N_H's argument from is refusing to get into any specifics. A shame, as most would probably agree neuron to be largely impartial on this topic.

Neuron is banned here.

 

[DarthGainer]

Neuron said NH's argument was flawed but never gave a reason why?

I like Neuron and tend to search his name when researching things but would rather he just didn't say the above lol if not giving a reason why.
I like the fact that there is people willing to point these things out like NH, Why shouldn't these things be questioned? If we pay money we should be getting something that does what its supposed to do.

Ben just because you haven't been told from the top does not mean ipes is not associated with USP.

 

[ELROCK]

Supposedly Uncut is getting discontinued, although I don't know why, still one of the best stims I've ever tried, can't see anything wrong with the formula.

Obviously depends on your personal tolerance build-up for AMP.

The funny thing is higenamines half-life is miniscule.

Damn, I would really hate to see Uncut go! Its still my favorite PWO.

 

[SoupNaziNazi]

People noted that even 1 cap was a stim bomb for them, so there is that. I used 3 caps throughout. Which reminds me, I should probably buy another bottle to have around... but I'm torn between getting another bottle of UnCut or another bottle of AMPitropin...

I'm leery about amp citrate. Have u had positive experiences with it? Safe for consumption? Which would u say is a better pre? And is it safe to mix the caps from both amp and uncut?

 

[SoupNaziNazi]

I know this is off topic, but I interested in mixing one cap ampitropin and 1-2 caps uncut. Perhaps even higher than that

 

[mw1]

I'm leery about amp citrate. Have u had positive experiences with it? Safe for consumption? Which would u say is a better pre? And is it safe to mix the caps from both amp and uncut?

Safe? That's probably debatable by some. However I enjoy Amp Citrate (assuming that is what is in amplilean) and still haven't really built a tolerance to it. Doesn't last as long Norco, nor is it as strong but it's still good

 

[SoupNaziNazi]

Safe? That's probably debatable by some. However I enjoy Amp Citrate (assuming that is what is in amplilean) and still haven't really built a tolerance to it. Doesn't last as long Norco, nor is it as strong but it's still good

as long as it doesn't kill me I'm fine with that lol

 

[kissdadookie]

I'm leery about amp citrate. Have u had positive experiences with it? Safe for consumption? Which would u say is a better pre? And is it safe to mix the caps from both amp and uncut?

I only use it 1-2 times a week. Had the AMPitropin for months, nothing adverse has occurred yet.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Wait, is the general consensus in this thread that amentoflavone doesn't acutely cause acute strength increases like caffeine does? Does it still improve insulin sensitivity and fat loss?

 

[kissdadookie]

Wait, is the general consensus in this thread that amentoflavone doesn't acutely cause acute strength increases like caffeine does? Does it still improve insulin sensitivity and fat loss?

Caffeine helps with strength due to CNS stimulation. In vitro it helps with calcium release but you're never going to be able to take enough of it to cause that in vivo.

Amentoflavone may be ergogenic in other ways but there's no data on that currently so the currently suggested MOA is based on in vitro data with the prerequisite being it needs to make it into circulation intact, which does not appear to be possible in relevant amounts when administered orally unless we are talking about very high dosages (possibly in grams?) due to it being a class IV compound for bioavailibility (I think class 4 flavonoids are as non-bioavailable through oral administration as they come?).

It's possible to get tissue saturation over a period of time of regular dosing but again it needs to be taken into account that current dosing schemes are essentially micro dosing of a compound which the bioavailibility data for it suggests that it really should be dosed much much higher.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Can we get Mr Cooper in here to address this?

 

[kissdadookie]

Can we get Mr Cooper in here to address this?

There's a lot of back and forth between him and No_Hype on another board. Neuron participated in that board as well on the subject.

 

[BigGame84]

I've been taking 3 caps of Amentomax preworkout the past 2 weeks and really haven't noticed a thing. Maybe I am under dosing but I wouldn't buy again.

 

[GreenMachineX]

There's a lot of back and forth between him and No_Hype on another board. Neuron participated in that board as well on the subject.

That's disappointing.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

There's a lot of back and forth between him and No_Hype on another board. Neuron participated in that board as well on the subject.

Unfortunately only a minority have access to that discussion...Im assuming no 'conclusion' was arrived at there (if one goes by what N_H has written at TL)?

 

[kdubson14]

I would love access to the aforementioned discussion between coop, N_H, and Neuron.

Or if you lads who have access would be kind enough to copy and paste, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jakey]

Just been reading the studies that No-hype has posted. Doesn't look good for Amento.

This is what happens when you don't research a product thoroughly.

 

[DarthGainer]

If we are talking about the discussion I'm thinking of it dosen't seem like Neuron or Coop will chime in again now, I hope they do though.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

This is what happens when you don't research a product thoroughly.

Or a risk you take when extrapolating from in vitro data? From what Ive read of the beta tests with og anabeta, perhaps it is unfortunate a similiar undertaking wasnt done with amentoflavone (by any company).

 

[GreenMachineX]

Or a risk you take when extrapolating from in vitro data? From what Ive read of the beta tests with og anabeta, perhaps it is unfortunate a similiar undertaking wasnt done with amentoflavone (by any company).

Speaking of Anabeta, is there a chance it's bunk and all placebo as well?

 

[kissdadookie]

Unfortunately only a minority have access to that discussion...Im assuming no 'conclusion' was arrived at there (if one goes by what N_H has written at TL)?

N_H was blasting it on TL so I'm sure he's openly inviting any of them to freely chime in (he's said as much on there actually, multiple times in fact). So if there's any rebuttals to be made, I don't see how it would make sense for that to be posted in the invite only forum which N_H got kicked out of.

 

[kissdadookie]

Speaking of Anabeta, is there a chance it's bunk and all placebo as well?

Anacylus p. is orally bioavailable.

 

[nattydisaster]

There are a few things I would like to address on the topic of Amentoflavone before answering the questions below.

1) We were not the first to release Amentoflavone. It was on the market for nearly a year before we used it. In fact, the only reason we even made the product AmentoMax was because you guys, the consumers, kept on asking for it to be made in a bulk capsule. Analyzed Supplements products are formulated for the consumer. If you ask for it enough, you will get it, and that's why AmentoMax was created. This has resulted in knock-offs of AmentoMax, and Amentoflavone being used in multiple products. Not because PES used it, but because of the overwhelming feedback

2) Amentoflavone was used in Norcodrene for its mood enhancing benefits. Not just because of what data says, but because when we actually added Amentoflavone to the formula there was a very noticeable difference. That is why Norcodrene gets so much positive feedback on its feel and mood

3) We recently added Amentoflavone to High Volume because after AmentoMax has been on the market for some time, the anecdotal feedback from unbiased users on this forum, other forums, and the world much larger outside of the forums was undeniable

4) To say that we did not do our research before releasing a product is just silly. The exact reason that PES is the focus of the Amentoflavone argument and not the other brands that are selling the ingredient are because we are the company who spent the time to show the research and educate. The study that No Hype keeps posting is from November 21, 2014

5) We use a 20% extract of Amentoflavone. Amentoflavone is also noted as being the best anxiolytic compound in another very popular extract, St Johns Wort, which has been used for over a decade for its "mood benefits".

6) We do not mind a good scientific discussion...but not everyone has time to repeat themselves over and over. This topic has already been discussed

I feel like coop has been saying positive things about amentoflavone since before he has been working with PES, and definitely before they had any products with it.

That is correct, yes.

Supposedly Uncut is getting discontinued, although I don't know why, still one of the best stims I've ever tried, can't see anything wrong with the formula.

I believe it is just being reformulated

Just curious will bens post defending the whole sister company thing be the only PES input this thread will get then?

I'm not having a go or saying you guys need to but PES have really brought Amento into the spotlight so it would be nice to take part in the discussion.

Just to add, I never really notice strength gains with products so I can't comment on that as I'm not sure the extra rep I pushed out would have happened without the product or not. but as for the feel good feeling some guys seem to get I have never felt it from Norcodrene or High volume. Both good products for other reasons though.

Hopefully this post is sufficient. People will buy ingredients that help them. Its pretty simple. People have been using this ingredient for almost 2 years now with success. In fact one of the biggest things I hear about people taking Amentoflavone is how big of a different they feel when they stop taking it.

Wait, is the general consensus in this thread that amentoflavone doesn't acutely cause acute strength increases like caffeine does?

I dont think that is the general consensus, no.

Can we get Mr Cooper in here to address this?

He has already addressed it multiple times over. It is an argument that will cycle around like a clock at this point. To each their own how they view the subject and the science

Speaking of Anabeta, is there a chance it's bunk?

No.

AnaBeta is a product, containing an herb anacyclus. Amentoflavone is a molecule

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Good post, I certainly appreciate the thoughts put forth.

6) We do not mind a good scientific discussion...but not everyone has time to repeat themselves over and over. This topic has already been discussed

Not really here, nor bbcom (Coop made a flyby post here addressing some issues, but he himself stated he would return to address them in more detail later). However, I appreciate that the 'completion' of a discussion can be a subjective assessment.

 

[DarthGainer]

Thanks for the feedback Natty.

As Newage has said Mr.cooper said he would address them in more detail later, So hopefully he does.

The problem is that anything Mr.cooper recommends allot of guys seem to jump on the product and I myself have done this, This is because he has great knowledge regarding what works and what does not. Regarding this issue though it feels sketchy and allot of guys might not have seen the other threads on other forums.

No_Hype might come across in the wrong way sometimes, Maybe a bit cheeky but he's pointing things out that need to be addressed. I think some are starting to lose faith in PES. Of course on my opinion. I also think as customers that have put faith in your products we deserve more than = He has already addressed it multiple times over. It is an argument that will cycle around like a clock at this point. To each their own how they view the subject and the science.

 

[nattydisaster]

Thanks for the feedback Natty.

As Newage has said Mr.cooper said he would address them in more detail later, So hopefully he does.

The problem is that anything Mr.cooper recommends allot of guys seem to jump on the product and I myself have done this, This is because he has great knowledge regarding what works and what does not. Regarding this issue though it feels sketchy and allot of guys might not have seen the other threads on other forums.

No_Hype might come across in the wrong way sometimes, Maybe a bit cheeky but he's pointing things out that need to be addressed. I think some are starting to lose faith in PES. Of course on my opinion. I also think as customers that have put faith in your products we deserve more than = He has already addressed it multiple times over. It is an argument that will cycle around like a clock at this point. To each their own how they view the subject and the science.

Mr Cooper is not ignoring anyone. He is probably busier than every member on this forum, and he was also out of town on top of that for the holidays

When he has time he will copy and paste what he said previously in this thread

 

[GreenMachineX]

There are a few things I would like to address on the topic of Amentoflavone before answering the questions below.

1) We were not the first to release Amentoflavone. It was on the market for nearly a year before we used it. In fact, the only reason we even made the product AmentoMax was because you guys, the consumers, kept on asking for it to be made in a bulk capsule. Analyzed Supplements products are formulated for the consumer. If you ask for it enough, you will get it, and that's why AmentoMax was created. This has resulted in knock-offs of AmentoMax, and Amentoflavone being used in multiple products. Not because PES used it, but because of the overwhelming feedback

2) Amentoflavone was used in Norcodrene for its mood enhancing benefits. Not just because of what data says, but because when we actually added Amentoflavone to the formula there was a very noticeable difference. That is why Norcodrene gets so much positive feedback on its feel and mood

3) We recently added Amentoflavone to High Volume because after AmentoMax has been on the market for some time, the anecdotal feedback from unbiased users on this forum, other forums, and the world much larger outside of the forums was undeniable

4) To say that we did not do our research before releasing a product is just silly. The exact reason that PES is the focus of the Amentoflavone argument and not the other brands that are selling the ingredient are because we are the company who spent the time to show the research and educate. The study that No Hype keeps posting is from November 21, 2014

5) We use a 20% extract of Amentoflavone. Amentoflavone is also noted as being the best anxiolytic compound in another very popular extract, St Johns Wort, which has been used for over a decade for its "mood benefits".

6) We do not mind a good scientific discussion...but not everyone has time to repeat themselves over and over. This topic has already been discussed



That is correct, yes.



I believe it is just being reformulated



Hopefully this post is sufficient. People will buy ingredients that help them. Its pretty simple. People have been using this ingredient for almost 2 years now with success. In fact one of the biggest things I hear about people taking Amentoflavone is how big of a different they feel when they stop taking it.



I dont think that is the general consensus, no.



He has already addressed it multiple times over. It is an argument that will cycle around like a clock at this point. To each their own how they view the subject and the science



No.

AnaBeta is a product, containing an herb anacyclus. Amentoflavone is a molecule

Sorry man. I was late to the party like usual and only saw a while bunch of arguments that made pretty good sense. I'm not trying to cause problems for anyone, honestly.

 

[nattydisaster]

Sorry man. I was late to the party like usual and only saw a while bunch of arguments that made pretty good sense. I'm not trying to cause problems for anyone, honestly.

I know. I wasn't speaking to you directly. Just because you were the one typing it, there's probably a dozen who had the same questions as you they just did not post them. So I am glad you asked the questions that way they could be answered

 

[Touey]

Sorry man. I was late to the party like usual and only saw a while bunch of arguments that made pretty good sense. I'm not trying to cause problems for anyone, honestly.

trouble maker! GMX & late for the party to boot

 

[De__eB]

Lets talk flavone bioavailability.

Most non-methylated flavones are poorly bioavailable directly.

Most non-methylated flavones will however be the benefactor of methylation during metabolism.

There are multiple studies documenting oral flavones methylated metabolites being responsible for their benefits.

Additionally, in a couple of studies, co-ingestion of a flavone with a methy transferase inhibitor eliminated the presence of the methylated metabolites, as well as the effects of the ingredient.

--

I think it highly likely that Amentoflavones effects are the result of a metabolite, and not the ingredient itself.