is amentoflavone bunk?? Why close the thread?

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A couple of reps from other companies got into an argument over "bunk" products in their line.

Posts got deleted and the thread got shut down.
 
I did not post this in that bb.com thread but N_H did have a rebuttal for that:

Following oral administration in humans, flavonoids are predominantly metabolized to their biologically-inactive metabolites, via extensive glucuronidation and/or conjugation. In mice however, the major metabolic route is methylation, which increases the presence of bioactive metabolites in plasma ~ hence the increase in biological effects at low doses.

So no.... micro-dosed amentoflavone in humans does not compare. You guys know better than this.



He probably would have responded on bb.com (N_H) but I'm pretty sure he's banned from here to eternity on there at this point :P
 
kissdadookie said:
I did not post this in that bb.com thread but N_H did have a rebuttal for that:

Following oral administration in humans, flavonoids are predominantly metabolized to their biologically-inactive metabolites, via extensive glucuronidation and/or conjugation. In mice however, the major metabolic route is methylation, which increases the presence of bioactive metabolites in plasma ~ hence the increase in biological effects at low doses.

So no.... micro-dosed amentoflavone in humans does not compare. You guys know better than this.



He probably would have responded on bb.com (N_H) but I'm pretty sure he's banned from here to eternity on there at this point :P
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KDD, please refer to the other thread wherein I explained to you how flavanoids from a plant (vs isolation) maintain bioactivity because competing flavonoids effectively block PgP and phase II enzymes. My theory is that there is increased shunting towards the glycoside pathway, but that's just my own based on the studies I've read.

All we can do at this point is postulate (this includes No hype, who is also postulating what he thinks occurs after oral AMF administration). It's times like these, when there's a good murine bases + in vitro studies but no human studies yet, that consumer anecdote plays a vital role. And in that case, AMF wins...the very reason we brought it to the market was because consumers kept asking for it in our subsection.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
KDD, please refer to the other thread wherein I explained to you how flavanoids from a plant (vs isolation) maintain bioactivity because competing flavonoids effectively block PgP and phase II enzymes. My theory is that there is increased shunting towards the glycoside pathway, but that's just my own based on the studies I've read.

All we can do at this point is postulate (this includes No hype, who is also postulating what he thinks occurs after oral AMF administration). It's times like these, when there's a good murine bases + in vitro studies but no human studies yet, that consumer anecdote plays a vital role. And in that case, AMF wins...the very reason we brought it to the market was because consumers kept asking for it in our subsection.
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Which other constituents would win out in competition with amentoflavone and at what doses would be needed (in selaginella tamariscina and/or St. John's Wort)? I would assume there would be 2 factors which needs to be considered which would be which constituents have a higher affinity for certain enzymes and proteins along with a dose to saturation relationship.

I ask because later I looked up resveratrol orally ingest from wine as well as an isolated supplement, both appeared to be useless it would seem as even in wine, no efficacious amount ends up in circulation (though bioavailibility was better than isolated resveratrol). So it appears that falavanoids are incredible temperamental with bioavailibility.

I asked in the other thread on here but that one got closed :(
 
NH certainly is knowledgeable, but his posts on TL forums regarding PES lead me to believe he will be like a dog with a bone on this subject. With no human studies, one might assume that amentoflavones MOA may be a downstream effect of consumption which may not come to light until it is research further. Until human studies are performed, it is seemingly just speculation on what occurs after ingestion.

I will admit that I have no idea how Amentoflavone works nor do I care enough to look into it but I am wondering why it matters so much. Many companies still use AAKG and there arnt 100+ pages/ threads on why that's still in their formula
 
I don't know if it's bunk, but I really haven't noticed much from it when used as a single ingredient. Maybe it is doing something in comprehensive formulas that include it, but I don't know. Works well for some and not others perhaps?
 
Jiigzz said:
NH certainly is knowledgeable, but his posts on TL forums regarding PES lead me to believe he will be like a dog with a bone on this subject. With no human studies, one might assume that amentoflavones MOA may be a downstream effect of consumption which may not come to light until it is research further. Until human studies are performed, it is seemingly just speculation on what occurs after ingestion.

I will admit that I have no idea how Amentoflavone works nor do I care enough to look into it but I am wondering why it matters so much. Many companies still use AAKG and there arnt 100+ pages/ threads on why that's still in their formula
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Well, when you're a company in which the entire business has been more or less based on bringing out products that actually work, people do want to know when there may be something that doesn't work.

Let's be devil's advocate here a little bit, let's say it turned out to be bunk, how that issue is handled will also be very telling with consumer's decision to just let this one slide (everyone deserves a few misses) or not.

We know AAKG pretty much does not much of value but PES is a company that would point such things out as well as consciously choose not to use it in formulations.
 
kissdadookie said:
Which other constituents would win out in competition with amentoflavone and at what doses would be needed (in selaginella tamariscina and/or St. John's Wort)? I would assume there would be 2 factors which needs to be considered which would be which constituents have a higher affinity for certain enzymes and proteins along with a dose to saturation relationship.

I ask because later I looked up resveratrol orally ingest from wine as well as an isolated supplement, both appeared to be useless it would seem as even in wine, no efficacious amount ends up in circulation (though bioavailibility was better than isolated resveratrol). So it appears that falavanoids are incredible temperamental with bioavailibility.

I asked in the other thread on here but that one got closed :(
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You can get a list on HPLC studies, theres like a hundred. Look up the plant in a plant database.

As for resveratrol, we know with relative certainty that it is bioactive from wine, and this is the main basis for drinking wine for health over other alcoholic beverages. So again, let's try to lift ourselves from the bioavailability focus (which the forum bros are obsessed with, along with half-life which also tells a half-story, but that's a different issue) and actually focus on endpoints in living models. For instance, if resveratrol reduces atherosclerosis when ingested from red wine, why do I care what it's bioavailability is? Believe it or not, human metabolism is incredibly complex and to hedge all your bets on one aspect of pharmacokinetics is folly.
 
kissdadookie said:
Well, when you're a company in which the entire business has been more or less based on bringing out products that actually work, people do want to know when there may be something that doesn't work.

Let's be devil's advocate here a little bit, let's say it turned out to be bunk, how that issue is handled will also be very telling with consumer's decision to just let this one slide (everyone deserves a few misses) or not.

We know AAKG pretty much does not much of value but PES is a company that would point such things out as well as consciously choose not to use it in formulations.
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No, that's really not it. The entire thread is defaming me and PES (note no mention of the 10 other products with amentoflavone in it, or the other company who makes a bulk product, or the first company to use amentoflavone). Please compare that to my calm responses that stay completely on topic as to the content of the discussion.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
You can get a list on HPLC studies, theres like a hundred. Look up the plant in a plant database.

As for resveratrol, we know with relative certainty that it is bioactive from wine, and this is the main basis for drinking wine for health over other alcoholic beverages. So again, let's try to lift ourselves from the bioavailability focus (which the forum bros are obsessed with, along with half-life which also tells a half-story, but that's a different issue) and actually focus on endpoints in living models. For instance, if resveratrol reduces atherosclerosis when ingested from red wine, why do I care what it's bioavailability is? Believe it or not, human metabolism is incredibly complex and to hedge all your bets on one aspect of pharmacokinetics is folly.
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Just found this today: Invalid Link Removed

So it appears that isolated resveratrol through oral administration does do something. Interesting.

Very complex subject for sure (not just resveratrol, but the topic of flavanoids in general).
 
DarthGainer said:
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To piss people off.

It stopped being about AMF, and more about reps insulting each other...reps that weren't discussing AMF or work for PES. If you want a pissing match, go elsewhere.
 
Lots of posts get deleted on here now. Used to be the best forum on the internet, now it's just who pays for admin to delete negative posts. Can't critique any product at all.
 
jamesm11 said:
Lots of posts get deleted on here now. Used to be the best forum on the internet, now it's just who pays for admin to delete negative posts. Can't critique any product at all.
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Lmfao, there is a difference between critiquing a product and someone blantly making umbrella statements that something is bunk and being very confrontational when someone else doesn't agree? wouldn't you say?
 
kissdadookie said:
Just found this today: Invalid Link Removed

So it appears that isolated resveratrol through oral administration does do something. Interesting.

Very complex subject for sure (not just resveratrol, but the topic of flavanoids in general).
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The thing that people always have to remember with science is that you have to take all the data you can find and then view it as a whole. Not just one study. Just take something as simple as creatine for example. I am sure if you searched for 10 minutes you could find two studies with similar if not identical designs, with one study showing creatine was great and another one showing it gave no significant effects.

Some people take creatine...some don't. Remember when everyone took it with dextrose? And now we don't? One study is never the answer, that goes for the positive and the negative aspects of an ingredient, or a study.

Same thing applies to studies on diets
 
jamesm11 said:
Lots of posts get deleted on here now. Used to be the best forum on the internet, now it's just who pays for admin to delete negative posts. Can't critique any product at all.
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Yeah, making a fortune deleting posts. Rolling in it..
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Lmfao, there is a difference between critiquing a product and someone blantly making umbrella statements that something is bunk and being very confrontational when someone else doesn't agree? wouldn't you say?
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Of course he wouldn't. Everyone is out to trick him and I make money hiding the evidence...I just forgot to hide it. :lol:
 
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