I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

[cciaffone]

Is anyone concerned about the whole soy and estrogen thing?

 

[ELROCK]

Is anyone concerned about the whole soy and estrogen thing?

No need to worry about increased estrogen from SL. I have have 3 consecutive bloodworks since I have been taking the SL and no change in e2.

 

[kbayne]

Is anyone concerned about the whole soy and estrogen thing?

This has been brought up so many times I've lost count.

The answer is no.

 

[alland]

If you can handle it all prewo, then dose it prewo IMO.

My 'reasoning' is arguably broish ('maximize uptake brah!!') but it at least keeps it simple if nothing else. Plus, Im not aware of any benefit to splitting doses pre/post.

one study they split the dose

 

[kboxer7]

Should I be counting the calories from the SL into my normal Macros or is the fat in SL like that of the Omega fats in that they are metabolized differently?

Thanks!

 

[roy_jones]

What's the consensus on granules vs. capsules? I know everyone here seems to be using Fearn, I think in part because of the disclosed PA%, but maybe also because it's easier to consume?

I can get the capsules fairly cheap, but the granules are fairly expensive (relatively). What is the standard PA% in straight soy lecithin capsules?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

What's the consensus on granules vs. capsules? I know everyone here seems to be using Fearn, I think in part because of the disclosed PA%, but maybe also because it's easier to consume?

I can get the capsules fairly cheap, but the granules are fairly expensive (relatively). What is the standard PA% in straight soy lecithin capsules?

Unless the product specifies, anywhere from 4-8%, but typically on the lower end (from what Ive seen of the caps).

 

[roy_jones]

Thanks, it looks like I'll be going the granule route.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Thanks, it looks like I'll be going the granule route.

Yeah, you'd end up having to dose the crap out of the caps just to get anywhere near the daily prewo amount of PA.

 

[roy_jones]

Yeah, you'd end up having to dose the crap out of the caps just to get anywhere near the daily prewo amount of PA.

My only remaining issue is that the granules are unbranded and about 50% more expensive than it is for you in the US. Meanwhile I can get 300 caps for $11. Glad I didn't.

 

[kbayne]

Should I be counting the calories from the SL into my normal Macros or is the fat in SL like that of the Omega fats in that they are metabolized differently?

Thanks!

Factor them into your macros.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

My only remaining issue is that the granules are unbranded and about 50% more expensive than it is for you in the US. Meanwhile I can get 300 caps for $11. Glad I didn't.

I usually buy Fearn from iherb and get a multi-buy discount; Im in New Zealand, so once exchange rate + shipping is factored in Im paying about 15nzd per can, and depending on how I dose, 1 can will last about ten days.

Ive personally steered clear of the soyl caps mainly because the cost/gm is much more than the granules, the quantity you get per bottle means Id want to purchase ten+ at a time, and the phospholipid content of them is often vague and inconsistent across brands.

 

[abformulations]

Believe it or not but I bought mine at vitamin shoppe for $11 and I never buy from them.

 

[abformulations]

Anyone has ran this while on a cycle?

 

[TheFugitive]

Same here. I don't think there much to worry about at all. The label says to take 2tbsp, and tons of people, even elderly people, take a few tablespoons every day for years. Lecithin is nothing new by any means, and taking a few tbsp isn't uncommon or insanely high dosing either. If we didn't take a supplement/food because one person had a bad reaction to it, we wouldn't have much of anything left to take.

My gram has been taking it for years. 2 tablespoons a day

 

[Misfit28]

Believe it or not but I bought mine at vitamin shoppe for $11 and I never buy from them.

Same place that I bought mine from. I figured I would try them out first to see how they worked for me before committing to a bulk purchase from Swanson's.

 

[abformulations]

Same place that I bought mine from. I figured I would try them out first to see how they worked for me before committing to a bulk purchase from Swanson's.

Bulk? Swanson carries the same (16oz). Confused.

Fearn is actually the best one. Same price as well as Swanson.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

My gram has been taking it for years. 2 tablespoons a day

Lmao

 

[Misfit28]

Bulk? Swanson carries the same (16oz). Confused.

Fearn is actually the best one. Same price as well as Swanson.

Like more than one can . I joined their email list to get a discount code.

 

[abformulations]

Like more than one can . I joined their email list to get a discount code.

Lmao! Ohhhh I was like I don't know of any bulk PA

Ima join it. So far I'm enjoying it at 2.4g. One more week on 2.4 then going to 3G

 

[TheIronAsylum]

damn wel iv been taking clear muscle for about 3 weeks now and king for like 1 and half and something started working i dont really notice much myself but people have been commenting about fullness and if i lost weight meaning body comp something must be working

not sure which one or if clear muscle finally kicked in

 

[kbayne]

damn wel iv been taking clear muscle for about 3 weeks now and king for like 1 and half and something started working i dont really notice much myself but people have been commenting about fullness and if i lost weight meaning body comp something must be working

not sure which one or if clear muscle finally kicked in

The exact reason why it's good to run things solo before stacking.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

The exact reason why it's good to run things solo before stacking.

For sure.

Ironasylum, I would doubt its the clear muscle contributing to muscle fulness, that sounds more like the PA...unless youve adjusted your training volume and/or carb intake recently as well?

 

[alland]

For some reason 2 tbsp of fearns plus any pre workout with beta alanine makes my face itch and turn red. But after it subsided i had a killer workout and my entire body felt pump. I am going to forego beta alanine for a while.

 

[TheIronAsylum]

For sure.

Ironasylum, I would doubt its the clear muscle contributing to muscle fulness, that sounds more like the PA...unless youve adjusted your training volume and/or carb intake recently as well?

i have been increasing volume and not much of a carb switch but skipped big cheat meal/ doughnuts on sunday this week and switched carb source from sweet potato to a protien pasta so i guess dropped carbs slightly

 

[ma70]

Clear Muscle is supposed to be a recovery agent and I don't think I've ever seen anyone report muscle fullness on it.

 

[tyga tyga]

Bulk? Swanson carries the same (16oz). Confused.

Fearn is actually the best one. Same price as well as Swanson.

Google is your friend.

Swanson has their own Pa as well. 150 serving tub for $16.

 

[warbird01]

I have been taking 3 tbsp on training days and 2 tbsp on off days of Vitacost's Lecithin. Do you guys think this is enough? I weigh 205. Started low originally because my cals were low and couldn't afford the cals but been bumping up cals so probably can add in more lecithin if needed.

 

[kbayne]

I have been taking 3 tbsp on training days and 2 tbsp on off days of Vitacost's Lecithin. Do you guys think this is enough? I weigh 205. Started low originally because my cals were low and couldn't afford the cals but been bumping up cals so probably can add in more lecithin if needed.

From everything I have read about the rough estimate of PA in Lecithin products, you're getting an adequate dose of PA with 5 tbsp per day.

 

[Misfit28]

From everything I have read about the rough estimate of PA in Lecithin products, you're getting an adequate dose of PA with 5 tbsp per day.

Is that 5 tbsp of Vitacost or any SL product? I thought 2 tbsp of Fearn SL contained an adequate dose of PA.

 

[kbayne]

Is that 5 tbsp of Vitacost or any SL product? I thought 2 tbsp of Fearn SL contained an adequate dose of PA.

Any SL product. Fearn and Optima are the only two that actually state the amount of PA in the product. All others are basing of the percent of PA in SL products.

2 tbsp of Fearn SL has 1200mg of PA, far above the amount done in studies. So IMO, 2 tbsp is more then enough.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Is that 5 tbsp of Vitacost or any SL product? I thought 2 tbsp of Fearn SL contained an adequate dose of PA.

It should be about the same for any de-oiled soy lecithin granules (I know that Fearn, LEF, and Global River are all >97% phosphatides).
2 tbsp of any of these granules would be the MINIMUM daily amount I'd take. While the label lists 1.2g PA per 2 tbsp (15g), or 8% PA, the range of PA is realistically going to be anywhere from 5-9% PA, with 8% being listed on the label, and 7% being what seems to be the average based on my readings and research. With that in mind, if you calculate your PA dose using the bottom value in the range (5%), 2 tbsp will give you 750mg PA, and you want to be sure that you're getting at least 750mg PA. So, while 2 tbsp technically provides an "adequate" dose of PA, it is not really ideal based on anecdotal evidence that more is better (from users, and Danes says according to the researchers who did the studies on PA).

kbayne, as I'm sure you're aware, none of the brands of granules are standardized for PA. I have talked with Fearn, Optima, Global River, etc, and they have all informed me that the values listed on the label are the averages based on their testing, and that they have a range of PA; the standardization is for a minimum of 97% phosphatides. I did see an information sheet from Optima that said they have a minimum of 4% PA (I think the range listed was 4-7%) Even though their label states 12% PA, I would still calculate it using 7-8% PA, and, to play it safe, ensure you're getting at least 750mg PA calculating with 5% PA, (2 tbsp or 15g).

 

[kbayne]

It should be about the same for any de-oiled soy lecithin granules (I know that Fearn, LEF, and Global River are all >97% phosphatides).
2 tbsp of any of these granules would be the MINIMUM daily amount I'd take. While the label lists 1.2g PA per 2 tbsp (15g), or 8% PA, the range of PA is realistically going to be anywhere from 5-9% PA, with 8% being listed on the label, and 7% being what seems to be the average based on my readings and research. With that in mind, if you calculate your PA dose using the bottom value in the range (5%), 2 tbsp will give you 750mg PA, and you want to be sure that you're getting at least 750mg PA. So, while 2 tbsp technically provides an "adequate" dose of PA, it is not really ideal based on anecdotal evidence that more is better (from users, and Danes says according to the researchers who did the studies on PA).

kbayne, as I'm sure you're aware, none of the brands of granules are standardized for PA. I have talked with Fearn, Optima, Global River, etc, and they have all informed me that the values listed on the label are the averages based on their testing, and that they have a range of PA; the standardization is for a minimum of 97% phosphatides. I did see an information sheet from Optima that said they have a minimum of 4% PA (I think the range listed was 4-7%) Even though their label states 12% PA, I would still calculate it using 7-8% PA, and, to play it safe, ensure you're getting at least 750mg PA calculating with 5% PA, (2 tbsp or 15g).

Thanks for the info. Certainly good to know for future references.

I've been only dosing 2 tbsp pre-workout but may have to up the dose and see what I notice.

So from what you have read and researched, at 7%, 2 tbsp would give us 1050mg PA per serving.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thanks for the info. Certainly good to know for future references.

I've been only dosing 2 tbsp pre-workout but may have to up the dose and see what I notice.

So from what you have read and researched, at 7%, 2 tbsp would give us 1050mg PA per serving.

Yeah, I'd calculate with 7% PA.

The American Lecithin Company says that de-oiled lecithin is typically 7% PA
A book that listed the "typical composition of a commericially deoiled soybean lecithin" as 7% PA
Another source lists 6.4% PA
A Chinese paper lists 5-9% PA
Fearn and Global River both list 8% PA

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I've been only dosing 2 tbsp pre-workout but may have to up the dose and see what I notice.

If you do decide to up your dose Id recommend giving it a few weeks for assessment; you may have planned to do this anyway, but just thought Id reitterate it (based on my experience with increasing doses of this stuff).

 

[kbayne]

Yeah, I'd calculate with 7% PA.

The American Lecithin Company says that de-oiled lecithin is typically 7% PA
A book that listed the "typical composition of a commericially deoiled soybean lecithin" as 7% PA
Another source lists 6.4% PA
A Chinese paper lists 5-9% PA
Fearn and Global River both list 8% PA

I'll up my dose of Fearn and see if there are any differences.

 

[kbayne]

If you do decide to up your dose Id recommend giving it a few weeks for assessment; you may have planned to do this anyway, but just thought Id reitterate it (based on my experience with increasing doses of this stuff).

Oh yeah for sure

More then likely will up the dose for 4-6 weeks and see what I notice.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Oh yeah for sure

More then likely will up the dose for 4-6 weeks and see what I notice.

Yip good one.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

i have been increasing volume and not much of a carb switch but skipped big cheat meal/ doughnuts on sunday this week and switched carb source from sweet potato to a protien pasta so i guess dropped carbs slightly

Keep monitoring body measurements (Im assuming you are), this is obviously the best way to assess body comp changes.

The hmbfa is probably not going to have much of a *direct* impact on body comp (compared to the PA), due to its primary MoA, but it can certainly exert its effects over time in conjunction with an appropriate training/diet schedule.

Not sure if that helps.

 

[roy_jones]

Not a big fan of the taste of this stuff, but I'm going to give it a whirl for a few months. I may try eating it with peanut butter. It's not offensive, I'm just not a fan.

Tried a couple of tbsp after a meal and an hour before my workout.

 

[roy_jones]

Has anyone calculated the amount of LPA and PS in each tablespoon of granules? That amount should be included in calculations of PA content, shouldn't it? It would seem PS runs at 3%.

 

[TheIronAsylum]

Keep monitoring body measurements (Im assuming you are), this is obviously the best way to assess body comp changes.

The hmbfa is probably not going to have much of a *direct* impact on body comp (compared to the PA), due to its primary MoA, but it can certainly exert its effects over time in conjunction with an appropriate training/diet schedule.

Not sure if that helps.

thanks man yea i was thinking that the clear muscle would spare muscle if adding more cardio or cutting/adding another training session per day

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Has anyone calculated the amount of LPA and PS in each tablespoon of granules? That amount should be included in calculations of PA content, shouldn't it? It would seem PS runs at 3%.

The amount of PS in the granules is very little/negligible. If I recall, LEF said that their lecithin doesn't have any (more likely it's just very low), and Optima said that theirs typically contains 42mg per 10.5g (0.4%), which is the same as the 0.4% PS listed in the book "Lecithins: Sources, Manufacture & Uses." Additionally, "Lipid Technologies and Applications" lists the "typical composition of a commericially deoiled soybean lecithin" and does not even include PS.

 

[alland]

Adding 4 tbsp to my 750mgs of PA my strength has gone up within the week. It makes the face itch more tolerable

 

[Misfit28]

I've been on SL for about a week now, and my hunger is getting a little ridiculous lol.

I've been eating about 4k calories lately, and my weight is actually dropping a bit. Lifting DUP style, strength seems good so far. Not really sore, either. As I said before, I'm also on Myosynergy and X-gels right now. Bad for gauging effects, I know.

 

[ma70]

Starting SL granules tomorrow and going from cut to recomp mode. Here we go!

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I've been on SL for about a week now, and my hunger is getting a little ridiculous lol.

I've been eating about 4k calories lately, and my weight is actually dropping a bit. Lifting DUP style, strength seems good so far. Not really sore, either. As I said before, I'm also on Myosynergy and X-gels right now. Bad for gauging effects, I know.

Ive never really been hit by the hungers on PA...nor ArA or anacyclus either. My appetite is pretty ravenous anyway.

Starting SL granules tomorrow and going from cut to recomp mode. Here we go!

Sweet, any mode that isnt 'cut' is gotta be good.

 

[roy_jones]

The amount of PS in the granules is very little/negligible. If I recall, LEF said that their lecithin doesn't have any (more likely it's just very low), and Optima said that theirs typically contains 42mg per 10.5g (0.4%), which is the same as the 0.4% PS listed in the book "Lecithins: Sources, Manufacture & Uses." Additionally, "Lipid Technologies and Applications" lists the "typical composition of a commericially deoiled soybean lecithin" and does not even include PS.

Am I correct that the different brands of soy lecithin granules are likely to contain similar amounts of PA?

A fellow canadian contacted the supplier of the bulk granules I'm using and they were told that the PA could be as low as 2% or as high as 9%. That concerned me because in 24 hours I've gone from believing I was getting 12%, to 7%, and now possibly 2%. I would probably toss the stuff if it only contains 2% PA.

Thank you for your inquiry. Below is the information you requested.

Phosphatidylcholine - min. 20% - max. 27% (20,000mg - 27,000mg, per 100g serving)
Phosphatidylethanolamine - min. 17% - max. 22% (17,000mg - 22,000mg, per 100g serving)
Phosphatidic Acid - min. 2% - max. 9% (2,000mg - 9,000mg, per 100g serving).

 

[TheFugitive]

Lmao

Seriously bro. She's been taking these pebbles for years. She claims it keeps her mind sharp

 

[NewAgeMayan]

That concerned me because in 24 hours I've gone from believing I was getting 12%, to 7%, and now possibly 2%. I would probably toss the stuff if it only contains 2% PA.

Whats your situation? Why havent you gone with a product that lists itself as 97% (or thereabouts) phosphatides?