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FRUSTRATED: No Bench Gain after 3 steroid cycles

RocketFan

New member
I have done 3 cycles over the past year:

1) H-drol : Bench went from 215 to 245
After PCT, Bench went back down to 215 again

2) M41ADD/Epistane : Bench went from 215 to 235
After PCT and then falling sick, Bench went down to 205

3) 500 mg Test E : Bench went from 205 to 235
After PCT and falling sick, I am back to 215 where I started a year ago

****. I am ever so frustrated. Does this happen to others? Is it inevitable that Bench gains made during a cycle will eventually wear off?

So I want to try to gain 60 lbs on my Bench and climb to 275. After some research, I have decided on a 750 mg/week cycle of Sustanon 250. I plan not to use an AI. I will use Clomid in PCT. What have you successfully used to preserve strength gains after PCT? I have heard Clenbeutrol can help with maintaining, or even gaining strength. What are your experiences with Clen in PCT?

Any input will be appreciated. I want to get to 275 during cycle and lose no more than 10 lbs post cycle. Possible??
 
sounds like your PCT is the issue. not that i cycle often, but i'm only prepared to loose maybe 25% of the strength gains from a cycle. more than that at least to me means i need to train harder, switch up my test booster, or adjust my diet.
 
its ur diet and/or training thats causing the strength loss.

are u consistantly in the gym? or do u train while ur on cycle then slack off off cycle?
 
My training is a-ok. I did cut calories after the initial 2 oral cycles, which may have caused the strength loss. Thus on my recent Test E cycle, I stayed on a 3k+ cal diet and my weight maintained, but strength went down. I was out of the gym for 2 weeks due to a severe flu. Wondering if that is what sapped all my gains?

For PCT all I did was Clomid. What would be the best addition to Clomid, so as to preserve strength gains after my upcoming Sustanon cycle?
 
i always settle after my pct as well, but i have seen an increase of 30+ lbs on the bench, you should check your PCT and chest workout
 
RocketFan said:
My training is a-ok. I did cut calories after the initial 2 oral cycles, which may have caused the strength loss. Thus on my recent Test E cycle, I stayed on a 3k+ cal diet and my weight maintained, but strength went down. I was out of the gym for 2 weeks due to a severe flu. Wondering if that is what sapped all my gains?

For PCT all I did was Clomid. What would be the best addition to Clomid, so as to preserve strength gains after my upcoming Sustanon cycle?
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maybe just bad timing on the lowered calories and flu. and dont forget, bbing isnt about #'s or really even about weight....its about how u look in the mirror.

i wouldnt stress about lift numbers as long as ur progressing in other areas well enough
 
nosnmiveins said:
maybe just bad timing on the lowered calories and flu. and dont forget, bbing isnt about #'s or really even about weight....its about how u look in the mirror.

i wouldnt stress about lift numbers as long as ur progressing in other areas well enough
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Yes I did progress well in the mirror, especially after the Test E cycle.

But this time I just want to make sure I can gain 40+ lbs on my Bench after finishing PCT. Have others been able to do that?

PCT is recommended 3 weeks after the last Sust injection. That is when I plan to start Clomid. Is it a good idea to also incorporate Anabolic Xtreme Advanced PCT? It claims "By following any hormonal cycle with Advanced PCT, you will preserve the muscle and strength gains made during your cycle while minimizing side effects such as decreased libido that are often encountered post cycle"

Invalid Link Removed

If I should incorporate the above in addition to Clomid, when should I start taking it?
 
People like this kill me...

First bench press is SOOO over rated!!!! It's the "hey what can u bench?" in relaity there are so many other better exercises for chest IMO. Who the F cares what u can bench??? I have never had a great bench but my chest is a lot bigger than most guys pressing 40-60lbs more weight. Don't get me wrong BB bench has it's place but other stuff can be more effective.

Maybe you gained better form or started geting a better contraction... Thus making the exercise harder.

But your loss on strength def came from cutting cals and then getting sick.

IMO don't worry about the numbers... It's bodybuilding!!! Not powerlifting!!!

Have u taken a break from bench and maybe switch to DB bench instead?
 
plus honestly you've said nothing about your specific training style other than its "a-ok" and whether it changes on or off cycle. you should have made some progress in a year anyhow if you were training for strength. so talk about your workouts some
 
Hows yoru trainign looking? Dependant on what sort of rep range yoru using.......are you working at a 8-12 rep range for muscle growth or a 3-6 rep range for strength?

Try lowering your rep range down thus increasing the weight lifted.....then over the next few weeks/months concentrate on increasing the rep range slowly........this is probablyu something youve already thought of put thought I would say it just in case.
 
RocketFan said:
My training is a-ok.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I can't see how that's possible. Your bench hasn't moved in a year. Cycles or not, something is not working in your training. I'd go over to the PL section and post your bench routine and get some feedback.
 
Liftingstud said:
People like this kill me...

First bench press is SOOO over rated!!!! It's the "hey what can u bench?" in relaity there are so many other better exercises for chest IMO. Who the F cares what u can bench??? I have never had a great bench but my chest is a lot bigger than most guys pressing 40-60lbs more weight. Don't get me wrong BB bench has it's place but other stuff can be more effective.

Maybe you gained better form or started geting a better contraction... Thus making the exercise harder.

But your loss on strength def came from cutting cals and then getting sick.

IMO don't worry about the numbers... It's bodybuilding!!! Not powerlifting!!!

Have u taken a break from bench and maybe switch to DB bench instead?
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In your opinion though, do you think it is still beneficial to increase amount of weight lifted even if you are going for body building rather than powerlifting? I ask because I've been having good results with a 5x5 program where I'm progressively adding weight. It seems the program is making my muscles harden and more dense.
 
Mikey851 said:
In your opinion though, do you think it is still beneficial to increase amount of weight lifted even if you are going for body building rather than powerlifting? I ask because I've been having good results with a 5x5 program where I'm progressively adding weight. It seems the program is making my muscles harden and more dense.
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if you are upset about what your bench press max is, then ya :)
 
EasyEJL said:
if you are upset about what your bench press max is, then ya :)
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No, my focus is on squats actually. I'm just trying to get a better strength base before I focus more on body building. Plus 5x5 is quite a bit of volume and has the ability to add mass as well; probably not as good as 6-12 rep range but enough to gain strength and size IMO.
 
in the end, even as a bodybuilder for your size to go up, the weights have to go up as well over time. you don't reach 19" biceps curling 35lb dumbbells. They may not go up as rapidly or as high as if you had a powerlifting concentration, but still go up over time
 
isnt it true that people may have a genetic limit??
like take me at 160 5'11., im not gonna be the guy in the gym benching 350 ya know what im sayin. now is 215-235 your 1 rep MAX?
 
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EasyEJL said:
in the end, even as a bodybuilder for your size to go up, the weights have to go up as well over time. you don't reach 19" biceps curling 35lb dumbbells. They may not go up as rapidly or as high as if you had a powerlifting concentration, but still go up over time
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Yeah that's true. I have gone the bodybuilding route and it's worked well to get me where I'm at. I just recently wanted to get stronger. My plan is to use 5x5 to get stronger and once i'm satisfied switch back to a bodybuilding style of lifting or maybe a mixture of both. Optimized Volume Training works well for building mass.
 
of course there are genetic limits but they are much bigger then most people care to find out. the right food, training and will can get you big and strong as hell.

a rocketfan i would like to know as well if these goals are 1 rep max. If so what are some of your stats and training/food intake. your avi says 5'11 195 is thats true and if so what BF?
 
Has to be diet and training if your adding muscle your lifts have to increase. At a guess i bet its ur PCT. You have to eat and train exactly as on cycle for 1 month and you can expect approx to keep 70% of gains. Also must be experiencing hard shutown, add some test boosters and here my advice add 500 IU HCG on cycle from day 1 then every other 5 days, prevents shutdown. Alternatively i just completed reading aN EXCELLENT thread started by Irishcannon on running about adding MID to cycle for same reason as i use HCG.

This is a MUST READ anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/145800-cycle-testosterone-support.html


Week 1 (Pre-load): Methyl 1-D @ 3caps/day (2 in the morning, 1 in the late afternoon), standard cycle support products (you should be loading this as well for optimal function)
Week 2: DS @ 20mg/day, M1D @ 3caps/day
Week 3: DS @ 20mg/day, M1D @ 3 caps/day
Week 4: DS @ 30mg/day, M1D @ 3 caps/day
Week 5-7/8: Post-cycle support products, standard PCT

Good luck
 
Jake Fires said:
isnt it true that people may have a genetic limit??
like take me at 160 5'11., im not gonna be the guy in the gym benching 350 ya know what im sayin. now is 215-235 your 1 rep MAX?
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...
At 22, 5'11 and 160, the last thing you need to be worried about is your genetic limit. You can rwach 350 on the bench with solid work and technique. That's not so hard.

When you get into upper levels, 400+ then we are looking at other aspects.
 
hardknock said:
...
At 22, 5'11 and 160, the last thing you need to be worried about is your genetic limit. You can rwach 350 on the bench with solid work and technique. That's not so hard.

When you get into upper levels, 400+ then we are looking at other aspects.
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Yes yes and yes....**** didnt notice that... 160lb you need to eat and then eat some more, if your a hard gainer go on a 6 month dirty bulk, will give you a better base
 
I have been looking at CAMP training that Kevin English does. Very interesting... Esp training in cycles using different rep ranges.

You may want to go heavy 3-4 reps for a wk then next 2 wks go 6-8 reps. Then go back to 3-4 rep range the next wk. Then go back to 8-12 reps. Then hit the 3-4 range again.
 
Right now I am doing 10 sets of 3 reps on bench and other big lifts(1 per day). Then 4 sets of 6 reps on the other lifts. My bench has improved between each workout. I have increased the number of sets I can do 275 with.
 
To the OP why don't you really try blasting your chest. If you can do 215 8 times do something like this.

Warmup
185x6
195x6
205x6
215x6
225x 3 or 4

Then do the same thing with incline, then hit up 3 or 4 sets of close grip bench, and some dips you should see the strength increase. When you get to where you can do 225x6 bump the weight on all the lower lifts and go 190,200,210,220,230. Do that for like two months then do 2-3 weeks of flat dumbells & incline dumbells.
 
RocketFan said:
Yes I did progress well in the mirror, especially after the Test E cycle.

But this time I just want to make sure I can gain 40+ lbs on my Bench after finishing PCT. Have others been able to do that?

PCT is recommended 3 weeks after the last Sust injection. That is when I plan to start Clomid. Is it a good idea to also incorporate Anabolic Xtreme Advanced PCT? It claims "By following any hormonal cycle with Advanced PCT, you will preserve the muscle and strength gains made during your cycle while minimizing side effects such as decreased libido that are often encountered post cycle"

Invalid Link Removed

If I should incorporate the above in addition to Clomid, when should I start taking it?
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I can't believe everyone in this thread won't state the obvious.

Look dude, don't take this the wrong way, but your sig on this post reads: "31 yrs old, 5'11 195 lbs Lifts: 215/225/275". Copied verbatim.

So let's get this out of the way right now: you are 31, and you barely bench your BW ONE TIME. Your other numbers are also those of a rank beginner. These are high school numbers; you are 31. With those #s, at 5'11" 195, I would also hazard a guess that you are overweight, or "skinny-fat".

YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TAKING STEROIDS. Steroids are a tool, not a solution. You have proven why it is stupid for beginners to take steroids: you cannot make progress without them, nor can you maintain what you gained. You do not know enough about training and diet at this point to make effective use of AAS. Honestly, how long ago did you start training? 'Cause if it was more than maybe a year or two at the most, you're doing it wrong.

So to answer your question, you claim your training is "a-ok" and your diet is solid. THEY ARE NOT. Period. Blaming PCT is miguided; Clomid is very effective at restoring natural test levels, which would be the reason why gains and strength would disappear post-cycle. The fact that your numbers and BW are what they are seals the deal that it is training/diet, nothing else.

Get your lifts up a lot; learn how to train for size and strength. Learn how many calories you need to grow. Learn what your weak points are in the money lifts and in your physique. Gain 20+ lbs of LBM. Lose 10-20 lbs of fat. Do all of that, get to the gym consistently and work hard for another few years, then, when progress has stalled and your numbers then dwarf your current ones, only then should you consider steroids.

Instead, you'll probably run your Sus, get to a 250 bench, then lose it all again after the cycle ends, because you don't have any clue what the hell you're doing.
 
Jake Fires said:
isnt it true that people may have a genetic limit??
like take me at 160 5'11., im not gonna be the guy in the gym benching 350 ya know what im sayin. now is 215-235 your 1 rep MAX?
Click to expand...

yes, everyone has a genetic limit. realistically, 99% of us - everyone on this forum shy of 2 guys (and i'm not one of them) will hit a "mental limit" way before they see their genetic limit.
 
have you worked on technique much? Id have similar problems but more of with deadlifting and since been changing /modifying my technique for 3-4months Ive been gaining on it pretty steadily now with little to no changes in diet and training
 
suncloud said:
yes, everyone has a genetic limit. realistically, 99% of us - everyone on this forum shy of 2 guys (and i'm not one of them) will hit a "mental limit" way before they see their genetic limit.
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No such thing as a genetic limit. I hate this whole way of thinking. Too many people use it as a rationalization for heavy drug use well before they should.

The bogus "genetic limit" bro-lore basically says everyone has a point at which they can't add any more LBM naturally. Now ask yourself this: if hypertrophy is an adaptive physiological response to lifting weights, why, at some arbitrary time and some arbitrary bodyweight, why would the body suddenly stop adapting to this stimulus?? The answer is, it wouldn't. There is no line in the sand where the body will stop growing (excluding the exception of aging-related hormone declines; obviously at some point the body's catabolic hormones overtake the anabolic hormones as we age).

In reality, a well-trained individual will hit a point where he realistically, due to the law of diminishing returns, cannot or will not undertake the training/diet/recovery changes needed to illicit further growth. People assume they are at a "genetic limit", when in reality, I promise you that if the above hypothetical individual started training 2x a day, and sleeping more by taking a nap, and eating 1,000-1,500+ kcals over maintenance, etc etc, he would continue to grow. That growth may be (and likely would be) painfully slow for the amount of work put in, the fat gain may be unacceptable, etc, but he would grow.

Maybe this is what you are referring to as a mental limit, but the fact remains, beyond that there is no such thing as a real genetic limit. Enough stress on the body, with proper recovery and fuel, will always create an adaptive response. The body won't just suddenly stop doing so at some random future date.
 
Dragon13 said:
No such thing as a genetic limit. I hate this whole way of thinking.
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while i agree that "genetic limits" is a highly overused term and everyone wants to say "i've hit my genetic limit" and use that as an excuse to cycle, or give up, i refuse to believe there's no such thing. if such were the case, markus ruhl could quit cycling and maintain his size naturally. simply not going to happen.

at some point, there will be a genetic limit on size or strength, but as i mentioned, most of us will never hit that point in our lives, and not be able to overcome it naturally (change diet, change training, or push through some barrier). hence, it becomes a mental limit that will delegate your gains rather than a genetic one for almost every bodybuilder. i think a few people may be getting close to their genetic limit for strength/mass gains, but they're the 1% of the 1%, an uber-rare group of superiorly trained athletes.

your last two paragraphs are pretty much what i was getting at.
 
Yeah I agree with Dragon 100%... if you can only bench 215 for a max then your training obviously isn't there, and it's sad that you're still cycling steroids when your training and diet aren't even good enough for it to benefit you at all.
 
suncloud said:
while i agree that "genetic limits" is a highly overused term and everyone wants to say "i've hit my genetic limit" and use that as an excuse to cycle, or give up, i refuse to believe there's no such thing. if such were the case, markus ruhl could quit cycling and maintain his size naturally. simply not going to happen.

at some point, there will be a genetic limit on size or strength, but as i mentioned, most of us will never hit that point in our lives, and not be able to overcome it naturally (change diet, change training, or push through some barrier). hence, it becomes a mental limit that will delegate your gains rather than a genetic one for almost every bodybuilder. i think a few people may be getting close to their genetic limit for strength/mass gains, but they're the 1% of the 1%, an uber-rare group of superiorly trained athletes.

your last two paragraphs are pretty much what i was getting at.
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I see what you're saying, but re: the bolded above:

Obviously Ruhl and other pros build their size with the liberal use of drugs. They crossed your "mental limit" with test, tren, and a dbol kickstart. Take the drugs away, and of course they will not maintain the same size. But what does that have to do with a genetic limit? You are referencing a loss of mass; that's moving backwards. I am talking about the perceived inability to add new mass, or moving forwards.

The better question is, since the pros have achieved unheard-of size by using drugs, size that cannot be gained without their use, can they get even bigger? And the answer is yes. The body will still adapt, but in a drug-assisted, incredibly trained lifter like Ruhl, it may mean 3 g or more of drugs a week instead of 1.5. They would now be pushing the limits of what the rest of the body (cardiovascular system, liver, kidneys, etc) can handle without shut down and death, so again it's more of that mental limit. But the body will still adapt.

There is absolutely no physiological rationale for the existence of a genetic limit.
 
first off, i enjoy debating this. i'm glad this isn't that other site, where this would turn into a negfest that diminishes not only the information, but the quality of a discussion.

IMO everyone has a limit (and i may be wrong in my assumption of some limit to physical threshold), but we're not the "belgian blue bull" which has no physical barriers, or a liger for that matter, again with no limit to physical size.

there are many ways to push through barriers, as we've discussed, and at some point there is (based again IMO on the belgian blue) something that will limit future gains. will most of us realistically see that point? probably not, but nevertheless it is still present.

you might be right on this though, i'm not a geneticist.
 
Well, one thing that cannot be argued is that some people have the genetics to make muscle buidling an easier task. I'm sure all of you have known guys that pretty much just workout a couple of times a week and don't eat too bad but are still big, strong and lean.

However, I don't know if that is truely considered genetics or that it is directly related to the amount of natural testosterone a guy has.
 
its not only how they train, but how they recover, their body type (ecto's for example have the roughest time gaining size), how they eat, and how serious they take their lifestyle (less drinking, not smoking, etc).

natural test levels probably plays a big role though - it is the best muscle builder. however, without knowing how to raise those levels through diet, knowing how not to crash your protein synthesis levels through smoking, etc also play huge roles in this.
 
suncloud said:
first off, i enjoy debating this. i'm glad this isn't that other site, where this would turn into a negfest that diminishes not only the information, but the quality of a discussion.

IMO everyone has a limit (and i may be wrong in my assumption of some limit to physical threshold), but we're not the "belgian blue bull" which has no physical barriers, or a liger for that matter, again with no limit to physical size.

there are many ways to push through barriers, as we've discussed, and at some point there is (based again IMO on the belgian blue) something that will limit future gains. will most of us realistically see that point? probably not, but nevertheless it is still present.

you might be right on this though, i'm not a geneticist.
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Limit is the key word. But limit as defined by whom? We all have limits as to how big we can (or will) make ourselves, but there is no such limit for the body. The rate at which gains in LBM are added is directly inverse to time spent under the bar (law of diminishing returns), but will there ever come a point where they stop completely? No!

Again, hypertrophy is the body's physiological adaptive response to certain parameters (in lifting, load and TUT). The body will never just suddenly stop adapting, except in the case of hormonal imbalance from aging, as mentioned. Absent that, we can always grow - it's just a matter of how much we are willing to put into it (training, recovery, diet, drugs) to achieve the growth rate we desire.

Or perhaps, to put it another way, when one has stagnated after a given period of time, and blames a genetic limit, it may simply be that the stimulus that may have worked for years is not enough anymore; the body has adapted by adding new muscle and requiring less recovery time, and hence is now fully prepared to handle the demands placed on it. So the solution is to increase the demands - less rest between sets, heavier weights, whatever. But the body will adapt if the stimulus is there.
 
Mikey851 said:
Well, one thing that cannot be argued is that some people have the genetics to make muscle buidling an easier task. I'm sure all of you have known guys that pretty much just workout a couple of times a week and don't eat too bad but are still big, strong and lean.

However, I don't know if that is truely considered genetics or that it is directly related to the amount of natural testosterone a guy has.
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I would consider one's natural test production a function of genetics.
 
Dragon13 said:
Limit is the key word. But limit as defined by whom? We all have limits as to how big we can (or will) make ourselves, but there is no such limit for the body. The rate at which gains in LBM are added is directly inverse to time spent under the bar (law of diminishing returns), but will there ever come a point where they stop completely? No!
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myostatin would be the genetic limiting factor. there's no unlimited growth potential in anyone, unless we could bypass that gene. IMO of course.
Dragon13 said:
Again, hypertrophy is the body's physiological adaptive response to certain parameters (in lifting, load and TUT). The body will never just suddenly stop adapting, except in the case of hormonal imbalance from aging, as mentioned. Absent that, we can always grow - it's just a matter of how much we are willing to put into it (training, recovery, diet, drugs) to achieve the growth rate we desire.

Or perhaps, to put it another way, when one has stagnated after a given period of time, and blames a genetic limit, it may simply be that the stimulus that may have worked for years is not enough anymore; the body has adapted by adding new muscle and requiring less recovery time, and hence is now fully prepared to handle the demands placed on it. So the solution is to increase the demands - less rest between sets, heavier weights, whatever. But the body will adapt if the stimulus is there.
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absolutely correct. no disagreement there, and most of us are all to happy to point the finger to genetics and say "its my time to try something else".
 
Dragon13 said:
I would consider one's natural test production a function of genetics.
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to a degree - 90% genetics, so a fairly large degree. however with no cholesterol intake, and no mono fat intake (the two building blocks of testosterone), i guarantee you your natural test production would drop significantly. look at vegans - all they're missing is cholesterol, but none of them have ever "exuded" the alpha male mentality i attribute to people with high test levels.

brotha, i am enjoying this debate tremendously, as the dynamics of building size have always been contested, and i think you're about to school me on something. i'd rep you if this machine would let me.
 
well, that sucks.
maybe you should take a year away from steroids to work on getting stronger.
I'd say training, diet, pct, together sound like is your problem.

hope you figure out your situation. when i get stuck, i know it's time to fix something, and i fix each thing until i get results.

hope this never happens to me. good luck.
 
Dragon13 said:
I can't believe everyone in this thread won't state the obvious.

Look dude, don't take this the wrong way, but your sig on this post reads: "31 yrs old, 5'11 195 lbs Lifts: 215/225/275". Copied verbatim.

So let's get this out of the way right now: you are 31, and you barely bench your BW ONE TIME. Your other numbers are also those of a rank beginner. These are high school numbers; you are 31. With those #s, at 5'11" 195, I would also hazard a guess that you are overweight, or "skinny-fat".

YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TAKING STEROIDS. Steroids are a tool, not a solution. You have proven why it is stupid for beginners to take steroids: you cannot make progress without them, nor can you maintain what you gained. You do not know enough about training and diet at this point to make effective use of AAS. Honestly, how long ago did you start training? 'Cause if it was more than maybe a year or two at the most, you're doing it wrong.

So to answer your question, you claim your training is "a-ok" and your diet is solid. THEY ARE NOT. Period. Blaming PCT is miguided; Clomid is very effective at restoring natural test levels, which would be the reason why gains and strength would disappear post-cycle. The fact that your numbers and BW are what they are seals the deal that it is training/diet, nothing else.

Get your lifts up a lot; learn how to train for size and strength. Learn how many calories you need to grow. Learn what your weak points are in the money lifts and in your physique. Gain 20+ lbs of LBM. Lose 10-20 lbs of fat. Do all of that, get to the gym consistently and work hard for another few years, then, when progress has stalled and your numbers then dwarf your current ones, only then should you consider steroids.

Instead, you'll probably run your Sus, get to a 250 bench, then lose it all again after the cycle ends, because you don't have any clue what the hell you're doing.
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WOW!!! I couldnt have said that any better myself. This is exactly what is wrong. He doesnt have a solid base to go with. Your body is fighting to get back to its equilibrium and you dont know enough and havent built a solid enough base to be doing anything more than creatine and ZMA.
 
to the guy that say hes not going to be the one benching 350 at 5'11 and 160 why not eat and gain weight. There is no reason you cant be that guy. Most people start weak I couldnt bench 150 it took to 20 months to get to 250 then I quit for a few years came back got to around 300. after another layoff for whatever reason and another year I am at around 370. I belive almost anyone can build good strength and size comapred to the general public. it takes not overtraing and eating, yeah that bench is barely over your body weight theres is a lot of room for improvement.
 
I def agree a genetic limit doesn't exisit. The body constantly adapts to stress. But when it come to BB there are some that have genetic and physiological advantages over others making it easier for them to add massive or strength or both. There are examples if this around us in bodybuilding, powerlifting and even in our own gyms. Do drugs sometimes play a role in evening the playing field, yes they do. But you can discount these people drove and determination.
 
suncloud said:
myostatin would be the genetic limiting factor. there's no unlimited growth potential in anyone, unless we could bypass that gene. IMO of course.


absolutely correct. no disagreement there, and most of us are all to happy to point the finger to genetics and say "its my time to try something else".
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OK, one more point and then I'll leave it be. Re: the bold above -

Myostatin exists in everyone anyway (only proven exceptions being the 2 superbabies, and maybe to an extent Flex Wheeler and Paul Dillett). From the complete noob to Markus Ruhl, everyone has it and hence has growth limited by it's MOA. This obviously does not mean one won't grow, however. Myostatin doesn't kick in at a certain level of development, or at a certain weight in LBM, or what have you - it is there, limiting muscle gains, every step of the way. So yes, it is a genetic limiting factor, but it does not preclude someone from adding mass, no matter the level of development.

In fact, to take it a step further, from what I understand myostatin is one of the main reasons growth slows down significantly as one gets bigger and bigger. It's genetic role is to prevent muscles from getting "too big"; when one gets to the development of an IFBB pro, it could be expected that myostatin gene regulation is greater than that of a less-developed individual. So does it limit growth? Yes. Does it stop it all together? No!

Good discussion. However, I must spread some reputation around before giving it to suncloud again.
 
well im one of those who has a freak metabolism, first off i can eat any dam thing i please and i still got a pretty cut body, secondly ive tried soo hard the gain weight its just not happening, anyways besides that, i just like lookin good heheh, i dont need to bench 350, if i can play around with 250 4 sets of 10 i'd be satisfied, just throw in some pec flys to that and your chest will be desiel!!!

ONE LOVE AM MEMBers! true motivators and limit pushers.
 
Jake Fires said:
well im one of those who has a freak metabolism, first off i can eat any dam thing i please and i still got a pretty cut body, secondly ive tried soo hard the gain weight its just not happening, anyways besides that, i just like lookin good heheh, i dont need to bench 350, if i can play around with 250 4 sets of 10 i'd be satisfied, just throw in some pec flys to that and your chest will be desiel!!!

ONE LOVE AM MEMBers! true motivators and limit pushers.
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If you can do all 40 reps at 250, you could very likely get 350, or pretty damn close.
 
I also agree with dragon. If your bench is 215lbs for 1 rep you need to figure out diet or training mistakes first before using steroids.
 
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