Christian Friends ( <----seriously ) Your opinion, and something I cant define.

[GTB]

I disagree and I will explain why. The gospel accounts are not believed to be first hand accounts, based on the dates of the writings. Hell...there are still disagreements over the authorship that will probably never be settled. Therefore, without any true first hand account on the story, it is difficult to assume that he was what was written. Heck....you can take some of the gnostic gospels that were written at the same time as the ones currently accepted in the NT, and they paint an entirely, nondivine picture of Jesus. Also remember, based on the writings, Jesus never wanted a new religion. He was a Jew, all he wanted was to reform the temple (non-physical) as it currently (at the time) was established.

To be honest, I think Rome was using this new found religion as a tool of organization. Later emperors realized the faults of the predecessors, and knew they were too big to govern, specifically as they stood. It made a great deal of sense (later confirmed at Hippo and Nicea) to organize under one banner. Constantine was a master politician, and new how to make the people fall in line.

To have an understanding of Early Christian history and the formation of it, one must truly look into who the Romans were, and what they were going through. They were terrified of invasion and the empire falling apart, specifically from "barbarians". What better way to try and survive but to reunify if you can.[/QUOTE]
It is widely accepted within biblical scholarship that the authors of the gospels are clearly identified, and to whom the gospels were written.
Matthew to the Jews, more Jewish references than any other gospel.
Mark to the Romans more miracles are recorded in Mark than any other gospel
Luke to the Gentiles speaks more often of the humanity of Jesus and inclusiveness of the gospel
John to the Gnostics because it speaks to the Divinity and origin of Jesus
You are correct, Jesus did not want a new religion or any religion for that matter. He wants a relationship , independent of rules and dogmas. His first words of ministry were repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The term repentance has taken upona negative conatation. It literally means to doa 180, turn away from. Much like aparent would implore the child about to cross the busy street. It is evidence of compassion. Judaism is aforeshadowing of Christianity. The physical laws , and festivals all point to Jesus . He is the Light by which man can live.Not once on this board have I ever read a statement regarding the possible role of Satan in the role of counterfeit religions. He is a deceiver, who delights in creating doubt. He is like the drowning who will drag down anyone he can in order to save himself. The lack of spiritual understanding as it relates to the scriptures is what has plaqued Christianity. Satan is an adversary that seeks to destroy and devour. IMO, he uses fear and doubt to muddy the waters and create an enviroment that leads to an inability to act upon conviction.

Concerning Constantine, I could not agree more, although some circles consider his conversion sincere. I look at the fruit of it. The church married the world and it's political prosperity and became corrupt and compromised.. A close look at church history will reveal this, until Martin Luther posted the 95 thesis on the door at Wittenburg.

On another tangent, look at the movie the Passion by Mel Gibson. He spent $25 million of his own money to make the movie, it grossed over $500million box at least. Look at his life since that movie, Anti Semitism , drunkeness, adultry, divorce,and drug addiction. While I didn't care for the artistic liberties he took with the scripture, I applaud the effort. His efforts have been totally discredited by his actions, that is the work of Satan.

 

[Flaw]

Let's use the Deuteronomy 6:4. Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

It is true that the word Trinity does not appear in scripture. Shall we then use the term triunity. Do you deny the existence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Whom was God speaking with when He said" Let Us" in Gene 1:26. Does not John say that Jesus made all things in John 1, does David not say take not thy Spirit from in Psalm 51.11. A simple lesson in hermenuetics will reveal the truth.
BTW , the term Elohim was 2606, not 6500. The word Lord "Kouros ' was used 6749.

God was speaking to His son Jesus and all the other spiritual creatures since they were all created in his image.

John is not saying Jesus made all things because Jesus (the word) was created and had a beginning, God did not. (Psalms 90:2)Jesus was the first born of all creation. (Col: 1:15) He was and is the image of God because he was created in his image. A image does not mean equality. A image is a representation.

Jesus later Stated in John 14: [SUP]28[/SUP] “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. "

Showing that they are not equal.

The latter part of John 1:1 where it says in most translations "And the word was God" is much debatable. As I understand greek a better translation into english would be the word is a God or the word is like God. Surely John was not saying that they were equal because that would contradict his later writings.

If John 1:1 was used to provide proof of a triune God it's poor for at the very least it's talking about two individuals. Not 3.

I have no idea where your going about david's words.

The 6,500 plus times I metioned for the name of God refered to the the hebrew writing of the tetragrammaton, not Elohim.

I believe kouros is Greek for a male youth... so I have no clue what your saying there. LOL

Just some FYI

“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.


The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.


The hebrew/jewish people did not believe in a triune God and neither did Jesus or his disciples teach it. Scriptural evidence showed that Jesus never proposed that he was equal to God. Why is this important? Well Just as Jesus wanted all the Glory to Go to his father and God and not himself so should we give all the Glory to our father and God Jehovah/Yahweh.

 

[madds87]

Some people just like to argue, what can you say?

Religion is a hott debate....

 

[AE14]

It is widely accepted within biblical scholarship that the authors of the gospels are clearly identified, and to whom the gospels were written.
Matthew to the Jews, more Jewish references than any other gospel.
Mark to the Romans more miracles are recorded in Mark than any other gospel
Luke to the Gentiles speaks more often of the humanity of Jesus and inclusiveness of the gospel
John to the Gnostics because it speaks to the Divinity and origin of Jesus
You are correct, Jesus did not want a new religion or any religion for that matter. He wants a relationship , independent of rules and dogmas. His first words of ministry were repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The term repentance has taken upona negative conatation. It literally means to doa 180, turn away from. Much like aparent would implore the child about to cross the busy street. It is evidence of compassion. Judaism is aforeshadowing of Christianity. The physical laws , and festivals all point to Jesus . He is the Light by which man can live.Not once on this board have I ever read a statement regarding the possible role of Satan in the role of counterfeit religions. He is a deceiver, who delights in creating doubt. He is like the drowning who will drag down anyone he can in order to save himself. The lack of spiritual understanding as it relates to the scriptures is what has plaqued Christianity. Satan is an adversary that seeks to destroy and devour. IMO, he uses fear and doubt to muddy the waters and create an enviroment that leads to an inability to act upon conviction.

this is not all true. there are countless, reputable scholars who do not believe that the gospels were written by their namesakes. They use the fact that there are distinct writting style differences in the text to show that there were many different authors.
Its funny that you mention satan.....most if not all earlier beliefs worshipped the serpent as the bringer of knowledge. You know what else means bringer of knowledge....Lucifer. Interesting coincidence

Concerning Constantine, I could not agree more, although some circles consider his conversion sincere. I look at the fruit of it. The church married the world and it's political prosperity and became corrupt and compromised.. A close look at church history will reveal this, until Martin Luther posted the 95 thesis on the door at Wittenburg.

On another tangent, look at the movie the Passion by Mel Gibson. He spent $25 million of his own money to make the movie, it grossed over $500million box at least. Look at his life since that movie, Anti Semitism , drunkeness, adultry, divorce,and drug addiction. While I didn't care for the artistic liberties he took with the scripture, I applaud the effort. His efforts have been totally discredited by his actions, that is the work of Satan.

Constantine's conversion was anything but sincere, I agree with you 100%. It was not until his deathbed, and his life prior to that was anything but holy

Gibson is a lunatic. I applaud him for making his movie, but I have boycotted his films since then. Which is a shame, as I loved certain works of his, regardless of how terrible he has been with the history of the events.

 

[DBinMD]

madds87,

Religion and working out are my favorite obsessions. So this post is long; the short answer is in the last paragraph.

I’m 57 and I’ve been a serious trainer for over 35 yrs, and have struggled with this obsession and sexual ones (like most men I guess) most of my life. Some people would describe me as a devoted Catholic. There is a simple answer to the sexual one. Sex with anyone but your wife is immoral, the struggle is difficult but worth it. That much said, homosexuals are still children of God and need to be treated as such. Lastly, telling a person this lifestyle is right when it is wrong is not an act of love (just an act of ignorance or cowardice). I have some close friends and relatives that I wouldn’t trade for anyone who live the lifestyle, I know some who could go that way and choose not to.

As far as the fitness aspect of this thread, I have to admit I’ve crossed the line. My wife says I’m the vainest person she knows. However, in some ways it’s brought me closer to God. There’s probably easier ways to approach this, but I have a tendency to do things the hard way. 15 months ago I complained to my family doc that my cardio was getting difficult (not terrible, and I was strong as ever). Long story short, 3 months later I needed a quadruple heart bypass. My surgeon said my heart is great and it was a miracle I didn’t have a heart attack. The good news is I didn’t have any lifestyle changes, my cholesterol is average. The bad news is I’ve tried 3 statins, each one was worse than the previous. The last one caused severe muscle break down in December and almost killed me, so I’ve starting over again now. I’ve also developed PTSD. Last month I was close to suicide.

I’ve talked to 4 priests over the 2 years about my obsession. Two were old dudes who I figured wouldn’t be sympathetic but told me my 1.5hrs/day 6 days a week wasn’t too much. Another 2 I’ve become friends with and both are serious trainers. The first I’ve had a lot of workouts with. The other is something of a muscle head himself. Both are good God-fearing men. My family doc is the father of the first and I’ve been able to combine spiritual and medical advice with him. The first one told me to slow down and count my blessings but he’s never been thru anything as I so he doesn’t count for much. No one else has given me such advice. The friendships I developed thru my gym have also helped me tremendously thru my ordeal.

I’ve asked myself countless times if I should stop and even slow down the answer always seems to be no. My obsession combined with an active faith life maybe a couple of the reasons I’m still alive. I wouldn’t have gotten to know the people I just talked about if I didn’t combine my faith and my workout obsession. So I guess I’m an example of what God can turn wrong into right. I’ve recently reconnected with 35 of my college friends; almost all have had substance abuse problems, mostly food and alcohol. You can see the difference between those friends and the rest of us.

So the short answer is I could have done much worst. You’re correct about self-reflecting. But my advice is try to use some restraint and put the rest in His hands.

 

[GTB]

God was speaking to His son Jesus and all the other spiritual creatures since they were all created in his image.

John is not saying Jesus made all things because Jesus (the word) was created and had a beginning, God did not. (Psalms 90:2)Jesus was the first born of all creation. (Col: 1:15) He was and is the image of God because he was created in his image. A image does not mean equality. A image is a representation.

Jesus later Stated in John 14: [SUP]28[/SUP] “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. "

Showing that they are not equal.

The latter part of John 1:1 where it says in most translations "And the word was God" is much debatable. As I understand greek a better translation into english would be the word is a God or the word is like God. Surely John was not saying that they were equal because that would contradict his later writings.

If John 1:1 was used to provide proof of a triune God it's poor for at the very least it's talking about two individuals. Not 3.

I have no idea where your going about david's words.

The 6,500 plus times I metioned for the name of God refered to the the hebrew writing of the tetragrammaton, not Elohim.

I believe kouros is Greek for a male youth... so I have no clue what your saying there. LOL

Just some FYI

“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.


The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.


The hebrew/jewish people did not believe in a triune God and neither did Jesus or his disciples teach it. Scriptural evidence showed that Jesus never proposed that he was equal to God. Why is this important? Well Just as Jesus wanted all the Glory to Go to his father and God and not himself so should we give all the Glory to our father and God Jehovah/Yahweh.

Let me guess Jehovah Witness or possibly Mormon. Look up the word for Lord in a concordance. 3068 is Jehovah, 2962 is Kureos.

“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.

Did you really quote the Catholic encyclopedia. LOL, the same false doctrine that claims the transubstantiation, and co mediatrix of Mary, and that prays to dead peolple( saints).
Mark 15.2 Then Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered and said to him, "It is as you say."
A direct referrence to the Messiah Meshiac Nagid in Hebrew. Yes, He claimed to be God.

 

[madds87]

madds87,

Religion and working out are my favorite obsessions. So this post is long; the short answer is in the last paragraph.

I’m 57 and I’ve been a serious trainer for over 35 yrs, and have struggled with this obsession and sexual ones (like most men I guess) most of my life. Some people would describe me as a devoted Catholic. There is a simple answer to the sexual one. Sex with anyone but your wife is immoral, the struggle is difficult but worth it. That much said, homosexuals are still children of God and need to be treated as such. Lastly, telling a person this lifestyle is right when it is wrong is not an act of love (just an act of ignorance or cowardice). I have some close friends and relatives that I wouldn’t trade for anyone who live the lifestyle, I know some who could go that way and choose not to.

As far as the fitness aspect of this thread, I have to admit I’ve crossed the line. My wife says I’m the vainest person she knows. However, in some ways it’s brought me closer to God. There’s probably easier ways to approach this, but I have a tendency to do things the hard way. 15 months ago I complained to my family doc that my cardio was getting difficult (not terrible, and I was strong as ever). Long story short, 3 months later I needed a quadruple heart bypass. My surgeon said my heart is great and it was a miracle I didn’t have a heart attack. The good news is I didn’t have any lifestyle changes, my cholesterol is average. The bad news is I’ve tried 3 statins, each one was worse than the previous. The last one caused severe muscle break down in December and almost killed me, so I’ve starting over again now. I’ve also developed PTSD. Last month I was close to suicide.

I’ve talked to 4 priests over the 2 years about my obsession. Two were old dudes who I figured wouldn’t be sympathetic but told me my 1.5hrs/day 6 days a week wasn’t too much. Another 2 I’ve become friends with and both are serious trainers. The first I’ve had a lot of workouts with. The other is something of a muscle head himself. Both are good God-fearing men. My family doc is the father of the first and I’ve been able to combine spiritual and medical advice with him. The first one told me to slow down and count my blessings but he’s never been thru anything as I so he doesn’t count for much. No one else has given me such advice. The friendships I developed thru my gym have also helped me tremendously thru my ordeal.

I’ve asked myself countless times if I should stop and even slow down the answer always seems to be no. My obsession combined with an active faith life maybe a couple of the reasons I’m still alive. I wouldn’t have gotten to know the people I just talked about if I didn’t combine my faith and my workout obsession. So I guess I’m an example of what God can turn wrong into right. I’ve recently reconnected with 35 of my college friends; almost all have had substance abuse problems, mostly food and alcohol. You can see the difference between those friends and the rest of us.

So the short answer is I could have done much worst. You’re correct about self-reflecting. But my advice is try to use some restraint and put the rest in His hands.

glad to see you can relate sir. its relaxing for me to hear.

 

[madds87]

Ae, so I guess you.can believe he is a teacher if you think none of the scripture isnt accurate.......

 

[AE14]

Ae, so I guess you.can believe he is a teacher if you think none of the scripture isnt accurate.......

I think it might paint an accurate picture based on the contemporary gospels that were accrued into the NT prior to constantine.

 

[Flaw]

Look up the word for Lord in a concordance. 3068 is Jehovah, 2962 is Kureos.

“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.

Did you really quote the Catholic encyclopedia. LOL, the same false doctrine that claims the transubstantiation, and co mediatrix of Mary, and that prays to dead peolple( saints).
Mark 15.2 Then Pilate asked Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered and said to him, "It is as you say."
A direct referrence to the Messiah Meshiac Nagid in Hebrew. Yes, He claimed to be God.

So it appears you made a typo I guess? First you said Kouros, now you are saying Kureos. Which I assume you actually mean Kurios which has also been spelled kyrios or kuros but not kureos! LOL... dude.. come on! Why speak about things you do not know? All you do is confuse people more, especially ones seeking the truth.

Kurios is a Greek word used for God or lord. Not the personal name of God.

Hey I don't agree with a lot of the catholic churches teachings but they do recongnize how the trinity came into formation even though they disregard the origin and teach it anyway. Hypocrisy, yes sir.

 

[GTB]

So it appears you made a typo I guess? First you said Kouros, now you are saying Kureos. Which I assume you actually mean Kurios which has also been spelled kyrios or kuros but not kureos! LOL... dude.. come on! Why speak about things you do not know? All you do is confuse people more, especially ones seeking the truth.

Kurios is a Greek word used for God or lord. Not the personal name of God.

Hey I don't agree with a lot of the catholic churches teachings but they do recongnize how the trinity came into formation even though they disregard the origin and teach it anyway. Hypocrisy, yes sir.

Thank you for correcting my typo. What does the NWT say? I do not feel the need to state my credentials.
κύριος
Transliteration
kyrios
Pronunciation

kü'-rē-os (Key) I was attempting to help you phonetically


Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From kuros (supremacy)

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

 

[BBB]

John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I.""You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I will come to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people.
A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.

So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-

 

[Flaw]

Why would Jesus say he's going to the father if he was the father? That would mean he really wasn't going anywhere because he's talking about himself.

It's not possible that Jesus was God just for the simple fact that Jehovah God said to moses "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live." Exodus 33:20

My assumption is that his power is too intense for one to survive if they were in his presence.

 

[Speedyboy3]

Why would Jesus say he's going to the father if he was the father? That would mean he really wasn't going anywhere because he's talking about himself.

It's not possible that Jesus was God just for the simple fact that Jehovah God said to moses "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live." Exodus 33:20

My assumption is that his power is too intense for one to survive if they were in his presence.

Jesus is the son. Not the father. I pretty sure by father it means god

 

[tashygirl]

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. --1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

[FubarFit]

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. --1 Corinthians 6:19-20

What does that mean bought at a price? I have heard the first part.

 

[carpee]

What does that mean bought at a price? I have heard the first part.

Christ paid your ransom.

 

[FubarFit]

Oh yeah. My man Jesus.

 

[Flaw]

Jesus is the son. Not the father. I pretty sure by father it means god

Correct. If Jesus was the father, why didn't he just say so in the scriptures? There is not one scripture where Jesus says he is the father or God.
[SUP]Matthew 16: 15 "[/SUP]He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven."

Notice how Peter says you are the son of the living God. He does not say you ARE the living God. Jesus does not deny he is the son of the living God and tells peter he is blessed because "MY father who is in heaven" revealed that to him. If Jesus was the father why didn't he simply say.. "no peter I am the living God" Or "peter I have revealed this to you"? He does not credit himself. Also if Jesus was the father and he was in heaven how could he have been in two places at once? Again, he might of said " I revealed this to you here on earth" but he does not.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Christ paid your ransom.

A ransom demanded by Christ's dad (who is also Christ). Makes perfect sense.

 

[jiggero]

A ransom demanded by Christ's dad (who is also Christ). Makes perfect sense.

What are you an a sshole??

 

[tashygirl]

Christ paid your ransom.

I concur! Because Christ sacrificed himself for all of us! Hehe right on Carpee !

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

What are you an a sshole??

Nope. Just exercising my common sense.

Now, about you calling me an a sshole, be sure you continue that behavior. It you don't sin, Christ died for nothing.

 

[tashygirl]

What are you an a sshole??

hahaha ok now, wow... simmer down now! ;0)

 

[AE14]

Nope. Just exercising my common sense.

Now, about you calling me an a sshole, be sure you continue that behavior. It you don't sin, Christ died for nothing.

Well played good sir. :thumbsup:

Common sense is a good thing, and is necessary in topics like this.

 

[houstontexas]

Nope. Just exercising my common sense.

Now, about you calling me an a sshole, be sure you continue that behavior. If you don't sin, Christ died for nothing.

LOL!! I'm going to get a bumper sticker that says "Keeping Jesus in business one sin at a time"

 

[Whacked]

Amen and Amen

Christ paid your ransom.

I concur! Because Christ sacrificed himself for all of us! right on Carpee !