Stan85
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So you have to at least wait 2 hrs before eating anything after a dose of money?? If that's the case I've been doing it wrong then lol
So do I wait at least 2 hours to eat anything after I take mine cuz if so I've been doing it wrong lolBloodwork has been taken after being on 25mg of MK677 for 2 weeks, will post results in several business days when it comes back.
Just as Huperzine A + EGCG are used to lower somatostatin, Arginine was found to stimulate GH secretion by "suppressing endogenous somatostin secretion" by Julia Alba Roth o. from the Journal of Endocrinology.
It turns out that oral arginine and ornithine are particularly effective at blocking somatostatin and therefore releasing GH when you add a couple of additional factors to it, choline (CDP choline) and vitamin B5 (pantothenate). That's because GH release involves the cholinergic nervous system.
Therefore, a combination of MK677 25mg a day with 3g arginine + 2.2g ornithine taken before workouts and sleep (and making sure 1.5 to 2 hours is allowed away from other food before taking, just like the study posted above) seems like a no brainer to me, and why I've ordered a bottle of 250 capsules of arginine/ornithine combo (super cheap) to start taking in the future, (along with CDP choline + vit b5) then have more bloodwork done after being on the amino acid combo + MK677 for about a month, to see if the levels raise even higher than just MK677/huperzine A/EGCG alone. I figure, the more somatostatin blockers in the system at optimum times, the better.
Any particular reason you've increased the HMB to 10 grams per day? There was a study that found 6 gram to be slightly better than 3 grams, so I'm not sure 10 is that useful. Or maybe you're just to reduce catabolism throughout the whole day and not just around workouts?For the last 2 weeks, I have been making tiny baggies in the morning, I buy a pack of jewelry bags from hobby lobby, and fill each one with 2grams of HMB, 5 grams of bcaa, and 2g of creatine in each one, and take one at 5:30am, 10am, 2pm, 4pm, and 7pm. I get about 10g hmb this way, 25 grams bcaa, and 10g creatine total each day. I carry these baggies in my pocket at work, and chug down a baggie followed by a cone of water from the fountain several times a day as noted above, easy to get down.
I was forced to take a 1.5 week layoff due to business overtime, but when I came back and did chest/triceps, I smashed personal barriers, and added yet another 5lbs to bench, 5lbs to tricep db pullover, and 5lbs extra to triceps lying extension, and even added an extra 2 to 3 reps on each exercise, totally blown away by the combo of mk677 (5 months now) + the hmb/bcaa/creatine combo protocol taken all day long for very strong anti-catabolic and anabolic priming. Highly recommended. Still on exactly 200mg test cyp total a week trt + 1/4mg arimidex at each of two divided shots each week. I give blood every 3 months.
So in other words, I really like tha addition of bcaa's to the hmb at intervals during the day, was able to add additional poundage and reps. 1kg of hmb and 1kg of bcaa I get from bulksupplements for dirt cheap.
Be back end of this month with followup mk677 labs with test total and e2 bloods.
How HMB is anti-catabolic:
There are not many studies on HMB. But the studies that do exist show HMB to have to some positive attributes.
Markers Of Cell Damage
There are three main markers which researchers look at when examining muscular proteolysis (breakdown of protein into peptides or amino acids) or damage: creatine phosphokinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), and 3-methylhistidine (3-MH). Research has shown HMB supplementation to decrease all of these parameters 3, 7.
3-MH only shows up in the blood when contractile proteins break down, making it the best marker to use when examining the effects of exercise on muscle tissue.
A study examining this marker found that after one week of exercising, urine 3-MH levels increased by 94% in the control group, 85% in the group supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day, and 50% in the group supplementing with 3 g HMB/day.
More interested is after two weeks of exercising, the urine 3-MH level of the control group was still 27% above their basal value, while the group supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day value was 4% below their basal value and the 3 g HMB/day group was 15% below their basal value12. This shows the supplementing with HMB decreases the amount of contractile protein being broken down.
One study showed that supplementing with HMB decreased CK levels below the initial screening values at the two week mark, while the placebo group's CK levels were more than five times as much as their initial screening value8.
CK levels in the blood rise from CK from muscle cells "leaking" out due to membrane damage. This study shows that supplementing with HMB decreases damage done to the membranes of muscle cells since there was less "leaking" of CK out of the cells8.
Plasma Amino Acids & Urea
The sum of essential amino acids (EAA) in plasma increased by 32% in subjects not supplementing with HMB, decreased by 9% in subjects supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day, and decreased 18% in subjects supplementing with 3 g HMB/day3.
Urine and plasma urea nitrogen measurements are used to access a person's nitrogen balance. High levels indicate excessive protein breakdown or dietary protein intake.
A study that measured these parameters found that supplementing with 3 g HMB/day decreased urinary urea nitrogen by 42% and plasma urea nitrogen by 26%, while the placebo group's measurements increased 8.
This shows there was less protein breakdown in the HMB group since both groups consumed about the same amount of protein8.
Less Contractile protein Breakdown
The decrease in urinary 3-MH and plasma levels of EAA supports the theory that HMB decreases muscle proteolysis. Since the body cannot synthesis EAA, they must be acquired from dietary sources.
Therefore, any increase in EAA plasma levels would most likely be due to the breakdown of muscle tissue (the body's most abundant supply of amino acids). Two recent studies done by Smith et al. concluded "These results suggest that HMB attenuates PIF-induced activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway, reducing protein degradation."
I never had loose stool lucky even at 15 grams.Hi again djbombsquad. So long as the dimethyl isosorbide which is in it is as powerful as dmso (dimethylsulfoxide) then it should work well, but I know very little about dimethyl isosorbide. It looks like about $70 for perhaps a month supply. I can get 1 gram of the pure powder in the US for 60 with shipping, as I no longer use auction sites (due to potential scammers). or go directly to china to get for $15 to $26 a gram. I like to save money, so I try to get a gram of the oral only which last 1.5 months. I used to love pureinfernonutrition who carried 100% pure for $35, but they went out of business. He was also on auction as well as a store. He sold hundreds of very pure 1g lots, he is missed. I wrote about my scammed experience for a month above which makes me very careful nowadays. During that month of taking mk which was only around 25% pure, I got not the best sleep, not enchanced recovery from workouts, very little in the way of strength gains, felt normal instead of "super-human". It just plain sucked being off it for me at least. I have been back on track with the pure stuff for around a week now, and feel so much better, pumps are back, fast recovery is back, stength gains are back again, and sleep/recovery is just super, and I feel great during the day (good mood) with enhanced energy and enthusiasm towards workouts.
P.S. I don't recommend using 10g of hmb a day as it will result in loose stools, 6 to 8g is plenty.
25 lbs of fat free mass? In 6 months on mk677 and hmbThe strength gains and recovery are impressive on MK677 (easily 20% plus like a study on the non-working out elderly showed), MK was the one item I added in which I noticed good strength gains 2 weeks later and still going strong some 5 months later. It really helps to have the igf-1 and GH levels of a gifted 16 year old now (372ng/ml me on daily 25mg mk677) compared to a 48 year old (227 me at high end baseline for age-group). And I can't say enough good things about using 8 to 10g of HMB daily (taken every 4 hours or so) as the half-life is 3 hours. I get the hmb powder and bcaa's dirt cheap from bulksupplements. Musclemedia 2000 was right about the HMB back in the day, it was just too expensive to use back then.
I've literally blown up in the past 6 months, putting on 26lbs of fat free mass thanks to 25mg mk677 in the morning + HMB 6 to 8g a day. I've had more people come up to me in the past few weeks talking about my size out of nowhere, and wanting to start discussions about muscles...catched me off guard many times. TRT at 200mg a week combined with mk677 and HMB is a true game changer. I was using TRT before, but it was the addition of the other two that helped cause such large dramatic muscular changes and fast strength increases not to mention incredible recovery.
Whoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.Well, I might as well close this thread since "all my gains are from testosterone", have you guys read anything I posted here? I'll keep my latest igf-1 results after 6 months to myself. And why even bother posting my spouse's results. I'll go back to professionalmuscle where they give a damn.
Well said.Whoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.
Thats true. Dont go n e where I appreciate this threadWhoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.
I will be back with 6 month followup bloodwork end of August, and Spouse's bloodwork.Over the last four weeks of dieting (Summer 2004), I have been consuming about 2,500 calories a day.
I gained 0.795 pounds of lean mass WHILE losing 2.295 pounds of fat. Gaining muscle while losing fat? I thought that wasn't possible?
What is more impressive to me is I gained almost a full pound of lean mass over that two-week period, which would be an impressive gain even while bulking. So what changed during the second two weeks from the first two weeks in the above table? The change was the addition of HMB.
During the first two weeks, I was getting 3 grams of HMB a day (1.5 grams per serving of NitroJet). During week three, I added 3 more grams of HMB a day for a total of 6 grams of HMB per day. During the fourth week, I added another 2 grams of HMB for a total of 8 grams of HMB a day.
I should also note that these high doses of HMB (6 and 8 grams) were only taken on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday (the days I weight trained) with 5 grams per day on Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday (cardio and rest days).
Thanks for the very good report 81dcs! Glad to hear you also experience no lethargy/tiredness. You can get really strong on a keto diet here are 2 really good studies, keep up the great work! In summary, lean body mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD or keto diet (4.3 ± 1.7 kgs ) as compared to the traditional diet group (2.2 kg ± 1.7)I know im younger (36yrs old) and im only using 1/2 the dose u r taking and.......yeah I feel 16 half the time and im sooooo much calmer. Think cleaner thoughts the whole nine yards. Im on trt 200mg week also alongside ive been keto also for 11 months now (I love it). My strength keeps slowly climbing with no lethargy either. Plus weight has dropped bout 8-10 lbs in 7 weeks and my muscles look more full. If I had the $ id do blood work but $'s tight, lol.......in short I love it and appreciate this log and you for persuading me to go ahead and start mk677. So thanks and keep us informed brother !!!
The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass - Jacob T Rauch, Jeremy E Silva, Ryan P Lowery, Sean A McCleary, Kevin A Shields, Jacob A Ormes, Matthew H Sharp, Steven I Weiner, John I Georges, Jeff S Volek, Dominic P D’agostino, Jacob M Wilson.
Background
This is the first study ever to research very low carbohydrate ketogenic dieting (VLCKD) relative to a traditional high carbohydrate diet in resistance trained athletes.
Methods
Twenty-six college aged resistance trained men volunteered to participate in this study and were divided into VLCKD (5 % CHO, 75 % Fat, 20 % Pro) or a traditional western diet (55 % CHO, 25 % fat, 20 % pro). All subjects participated in a periodized resistance-training program 3x per week. Body fat and lean mass were determined via dual xray absorptiometry (DXA), while muscle mass was determined via ultrasonography analysis of the quadriceps. All measures were taken at week 0 and 11.
Results
Lean body mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD (4.3 ± 1.7 kgs ) as compared to the traditional group (2.2 kg ± 1.7).
Ultrasound determined muscle mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (0.4 ± 0.25 cm) as compared to the traditional western group (0.19 ± 0.26 cm). Finally fat mass decreased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (-2.2 kg ± 1.2 kg) as compared to the traditional group (- 1.5 ± 1.6 kg).
Conclusions
These results indicate that VLCKD may have more favorable changes in LBM, muscle mass, and body fatness as compared to a traditional western diet in resistance trained males.
Full paper: The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass
Note by Menno Henselmans: From what I gathered during Jacob Wilson’s presentation when we were both lecturing for the Norwegian Academy for Personal Training, this study included a carb-up at the end. This probably explains why lean mass rose so much in the ketogenic diet group, i.e. it’s glycogen and water, not muscle mass, though before the carb-up the ketogenic diet group still had better muscle growth and fat loss.
While strength gains may be lost initially during fat adaptation, it is very difficult (contrary to popular opinion) to lose lean mass on a ketogenic diet. All of this can be done using the SKD, although different goals may require slightly different approaches (this is where TKD or CKD may become useful).
Also, worth a read: Can you build muscle on a ketogenic diet? Article from BodyBuilding.com
Keto will cause muscle wastage and prevent hypertrophy.
Busted. While strength gains may be slowed initially during fat adaptation, it is very difficult (contrary to popular opinion) to lose lean mass on a ketogenic diet. As long as one eats enough protein (as per the guidelines here in the FAQ), muscle loss will be a non issue. Muscle hypertrophy will not be hindered by the lack of carbohydrates (read the myth above). The initial weight loss some people may experience, when doing keto is water loss, not muscle loss. Check this article for an example of how dramatic water loss can impact muscle size, visually.
Also, check the image. First Pic is hydrated, second dehydrated, taken one day apart.
More studies:
"Body Composition and Hormonal Responses to a Carbohydrate Restricted Diet" Jeff S. Volek et al
In summary, a 6 week carbohydrate restricted diet resulted in a favorable response in body composition (decreased fat mass and increased lean body mass) in normal weight men. Our results indicate that endocrine adaptations may partially mediate the accelerated fat loss, in particular the decrease in circulating insulin concentrations.
"Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass" Anssi H Manninen
Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein..
Also, resistance training helps prevent lean mass (muscle) loss on keto:
The aim of the present study was to compare the effects of 10 weeks resistance training in combination with either a regular diet (Ex) or a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (Lc+Ex) in overweight women on body weight and body composition. ... The Lc+Ex group lost 5.6 ± 2.9 kg of fat mass (p = 0.001) with no significant change in lean body mass (LBM) Jabekk PT, et al. "Resistance training in overweight women on a ketogenic diet conserved lean body mass while reducing body fat."[2] Nutr Metab (Lond). 2010 Mar 2;7:17. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-7-17.
But what about glycogen? Glycogen is needed to build muscle, right?
Half-truth. Glycogen helps, but you really don't need it to build muscle. To build muscle, you need protein, excess of calories (which can come from carbs, protein or fat) and hypertrophy training.
Glycogen only acts as an extra fuel source for the muscles, which will help you lift 5-10 more lbs or do 5-10 extra reps, or last a little longer if you are doing endurance training (prevent bonking).
Really good first point.I read as much as I could, but these are some looooong posts - tldr; does mk-677 result in proper spiked releases of gh in males, or is the "bleed'? so much back and forth. also, no down-regulation with every day dosing? - thats another back and forth i hear. I can actually get prescription ibutamoren but as expected it's expensive as heck - i wish there were known, reliable, cheaper sources. thanks for all the info.
cGMP is just an fda guideline (21 cfr 111) in the us - so not applicable in the rest of the world. isn't "pharm grade" mostly a marketing term? (not *always" - there is prescription fish oil for example). but is there prescription hmb? all the hmb-ca i've used (two different bulk suppliers) looked, smelled, and tasted (yuk!) the same - i don't think there is a lot of bogus hmb out there.anyone recommend a "GMP" manufactured HIGH quality HMB????? pharm grade maybe?
saw this just postedcGMP is just an fda guideline (21 cfr 111) in the us - so not applicable in the rest of the world. isn't "pharm grade" mostly a marketing term? (not *always" - there is prescription fish oil for example). but is there prescription hmb? all the hmb-ca i've used (two different bulk suppliers) looked, smelled, and tasted (yuk!) the same - i don't think there is a lot of bogus hmb out there.
The Studies That Concluded HMB To Be Ineffective:
Kreider RB, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Almada AL. Effects of Calcium ß-Hydroxy-ß-methylbutyrate (HMB) Supplementation During Resistance-Training on Markers of Catabolism, Body Composition and Strength. Int J Sports Med 1999; 20: 503-5091
Though the increases are small, we see that despite the caloric difference between the groups (the Control group consuming more calories) the 6 g HMB group gained three times as much lean mass as the Control group. This pattern and gains are similar to the results in one of the studies done by Nissen4.
Again, despite the small increases, the HMB groups' strength increased more than the Control group's.
Even though the Control group consumed more total calories per day, the HMB groups made better progress. Though the difference is not statistically significant, it still exists. One flaw I see in this study is that there was no dietary control. Therefore, it is difficult to isolate other variables to further identify either positive or negative contributions from HMB.
Since the HMB groups' caloric intake was hundreds of calories lower than the control group, I think this demonstrates how effective HMB can be. I would like to know what the results would have yielded if the HMB groups consumed the same number of calories?
Another flaw in the study is there was no training control. We do not know if the subjects were training to failure, what percentage of their 1-RM they were using, whether or not they were increasing the weights they used when possible, etc.
Training provides the stimulus for growth. If the subjects were not inflicting a stimulus strong enough to cause growth, they will not grow or get stronger.
The study concluded that HMB does not affect lean mass or strength, but the results show it does. However, the lack of control in the study makes the results questionable. These findings show why it is important to read entire study articles and not just the abstracts.
who is the most knowledgable on KETO/40+ guys/slin/ bodybuilding??Same here djbombsquad, have to keep the hmb around 6 and max of 8g a day or else happens to me too.
One thing I have noticed on the keto diet, since there is less insulin floating around, that I think it helps the effectiveness of the mk677 pulses, as the dreams I have at night on the mk677 are really vivid and long-lasting. Super great sleep on the mk677 and the dreams are amazing. Higher GH with less insulin during the day is a good a feeling anyways. I do try to replace any lost glycogen in the muscles by taking in an extra 35g of carbs before/after workouts, then keto resumes again in a few hours later on workout days. The muscles are a bit flat on keto, but it's easy to get shredded and I can go for long periods without feeling hungry as body fat is being burned for energy. But there is no loss of strength, and actually getting stronger each workout is easy on keto. It's great for people with more insulin resistance as they get older.
I notice I get the same kind of crazy long lasting vivid dreams on 25mg mk677 taken in the morning on the keto diet that I used to get when I tried Chinese pharm grade gh at 4 and even 5iu a day. Some of the dreams have a fascinating twist at the end that throws everything on it's head and then ties it all together, difficult to explain, like a puzzle that reveals a unique ending.
Thanks JulzRulz. Hi Brienn8989, good luck with your mk677 start up. Yes, I there are some things you can take to make it even stronger. I take 200mg of Citicoline CDP Choline from Jarrow formulas along with a capsule of vitamin B5 or pantothenic acid, this greatly helps the choline convert to acetylcholine in the brain. As GH works thru the choline system, as written by Pearson and Shaw back in the day, I actually do feel that on the days that I take the choline, the effects from the mk677 are even more pronounced and stronger. Caffeine free egcg capsule is also good to take or green tea capsule like you mention. There is lots written about this on forums here and elsewhere about choline and egcg helping with peptides and any form of gh secratogogue so I won't go into it here, but russianstar wrote a paper on this. Some prefer the huperzine A by itself with green tea, I used that in the past, but I prefer just a capsule of choline now with b5, just like pearson and shaw used in their gh secreting formulas. If you can find it, there is a formula on line that has 200mg citcoline with 100mg alpha gpc, this is a super formula that you can take with vitamin b5. I take the choline and b5 at the same time I take the 25mg mk677, and when I have egcg I add that too.
The best formula I feel is the one from purenootropics.net which is Optimal Choline Complex which contains 200mg CDP choline and 100mg alpha GPC choline, so you get both forms of choline in one pill. Just add vitamin b5.
Cool that you remember that yes, before every workout, I take 6 capsules of Now sports arginine/ornithine for a total of 3g L-arginine and 1.5 gram L-ornithine, I showed studies earlier in this thread that show a very large increase in GH when taken before workouts that last for several hours, I always use this before workouts, and Yes, I do believe it is very effective to take along with mk677. As MK677 has been shown to raise gh during workouts, the arginine/ornithine does the same and they both add on top each other.
You can get very large increases during workouts with mk677 and the arginine/ornithing--just the arg/orn alone can raise igf-1 into the 600 ng/ml igf-1 ! during workouts as shown in the most recent studies, very good paper. That is the equivalent of 6iu of GH for several hours ! See post #10 for the graphs and study. I used the same formula in my 20's and 30's and it really worked back then as well. In the study they compare the igf-1 of placebo to those taking the amino acids, and what a difference while working out. The placebo only got up to 400 ng/ml igf-1.
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I take sodium and I look full haha .Same here djbombsquad, have to keep the hmb around 6 and max of 8g a day or else happens to me too.
One thing I have noticed on the keto diet, since there is less insulin floating around, that I think it helps the effectiveness of the mk677 pulses, as the dreams I have at night on the mk677 are really vivid and long-lasting. Super great sleep on the mk677 and the dreams are amazing. Higher GH with less insulin during the day is a good a feeling anyways. I do try to replace any lost glycogen in the muscles by taking in an extra 35g of carbs before/after workouts, then keto resumes again in a few hours later on workout days. The muscles are a bit flat on keto, but it's easy to get shredded and I can go for long periods without feeling hungry as body fat is being burned for energy. But there is no loss of strength, and actually getting stronger each workout is easy on keto. It's great for people with more insulin resistance as they get older.
I notice I get the same kind of crazy long lasting vivid dreams on 25mg mk677 taken in the morning on the keto diet that I used to get when I tried Chinese pharm grade gh at 4 and even 5iu a day. Some of the dreams have a fascinating twist at the end that throws everything on it's head and then ties it all together, difficult to explain, like a puzzle that reveals a unique ending.
Good luck brother, let us know how it goes. I could not be happier and for a tiny fraction of the cost of GH. Great sleep, great gains, great mood all day. And you can never go wrong w/fish oil. Studies (post #138 above) show 5g a day can lead to twice the amount of lean mass gained in combination with protein compared to just protein alone. Fish oil makes you smarter too and keeps you from getting depressed, nature's miracle food and it lowers triglycerides big time, very healthy stuff. Fish oil was the one thing that helped me over the depression of loosing a very loved pet years ago. I know that he is fine as he visited both of us in a twighlight dream state at the exact same time with the happiest smile on his face, and he was young again and healthy.Thanks for the help brother. This thread has helped me to pull the trigger on mk. I have some cdp choline, b5, l arg/orn on its way and will be using the egcg capsules along with megadosing fish oil.
Holy fck that's a lot of cholineI like the alpha gpc 800mg 3x a day , hup a once a day , cdp choline 3 Times a day and combo this with some nitrosigine(1750 mg) ornathine (3000mg) sustamine (5ooomg) and boom
5g of fish oil can be expensive where do you find cheap fish oikBrienn8989
Good luck brother, let us know how it goes. I could not be happier and for a tiny fraction of the cost of GH. Great sleep, great gains, great mood all day. And you can never go wrong w/fish oil. Studies (post #138 above) show 5g a day can lead to twice the amount of lean mass gained in combination with protein compared to just protein alone. Fish oil makes you smarter too and keeps you from getting depressed, nature's miracle food and it lowers triglycerides big time, very healthy stuff. Fish oil was the one thing that helped me over the depression of loosing a very loved pet years ago. I know that he is fine as he visited both of us in a twighlight dream state at the exact same time with the happiest smile on his face, and he was young again and healthy.