Bloodwork study of 4iu GH vs peptides & MK677 (similar to 2-3 iu GH)

[Stan85]

So you have to at least wait 2 hrs before eating anything after a dose of money?? If that's the case I've been doing it wrong then lol

 

[Stan85]

Bloodwork has been taken after being on 25mg of MK677 for 2 weeks, will post results in several business days when it comes back.

Just as Huperzine A + EGCG are used to lower somatostatin, Arginine was found to stimulate GH secretion by "suppressing endogenous somatostin secretion" by Julia Alba Roth o. from the Journal of Endocrinology.

It turns out that oral arginine and ornithine are particularly effective at blocking somatostatin and therefore releasing GH when you add a couple of additional factors to it, choline (CDP choline) and vitamin B5 (pantothenate). That's because GH release involves the cholinergic nervous system.

Therefore, a combination of MK677 25mg a day with 3g arginine + 2.2g ornithine taken before workouts and sleep (and making sure 1.5 to 2 hours is allowed away from other food before taking, just like the study posted above) seems like a no brainer to me, and why I've ordered a bottle of 250 capsules of arginine/ornithine combo (super cheap) to start taking in the future, (along with CDP choline + vit b5) then have more bloodwork done after being on the amino acid combo + MK677 for about a month, to see if the levels raise even higher than just MK677/huperzine A/EGCG alone. I figure, the more somatostatin blockers in the system at optimum times, the better.

So do I wait at least 2 hours to eat anything after I take mine cuz if so I've been doing it wrong lol

 

[SARMS]

For the last 2 weeks, I have been making tiny baggies in the morning, I buy a pack of jewelry bags from hobby lobby, and fill each one with 2grams of HMB, 5 grams of bcaa, and 2g of creatine in each one, and take one at 5:30am, 10am, 2pm, 4pm, and 7pm. I get about 10g hmb this way, 25 grams bcaa, and 10g creatine total each day. I carry these baggies in my pocket at work, and chug down a baggie followed by a cone of water from the fountain several times a day as noted above, easy to get down.

I was forced to take a 1.5 week layoff due to business overtime, but when I came back and did chest/triceps, I smashed personal barriers, and added yet another 5lbs to bench, 5lbs to tricep db pullover, and 5lbs extra to triceps lying extension, and even added an extra 2 to 3 reps on each exercise, totally blown away by the combo of mk677 (5 months now) + the hmb/bcaa/creatine combo protocol taken all day long for very strong anti-catabolic and anabolic priming. Highly recommended. Still on exactly 200mg test cyp total a week trt + 1/4mg arimidex at each of two divided shots each week. I give blood every 3 months.

So in other words, I really like tha addition of bcaa's to the hmb at intervals during the day, was able to add additional poundage and reps. 1kg of hmb and 1kg of bcaa I get from bulksupplements for dirt cheap.

Be back end of this month with followup mk677 labs with test total and e2 bloods.

Any particular reason you've increased the HMB to 10 grams per day? There was a study that found 6 gram to be slightly better than 3 grams, so I'm not sure 10 is that useful. Or maybe you're just to reduce catabolism throughout the whole day and not just around workouts?

 

[djbombsquad]

I did 5 grams three times a day a while ago and loved the recovery I got from it.

 

[tregar]

Beware scammers on auction sites and elsewhere. I have gotten very good A+ quality mk677 at auction, but I have also gotten very diluted mk677 at auction. A friend of mine got something that was not even mk677 and got his money back but you must be careful, it is a gamble. I would recommend buying directly from a source in China. There is a pure place in US, but it is around sixty a gram with shipping, and that is overpriced imho, as it is no more than 11 to 15 from China per gram. The benzene ring in 25mg if you swish it in your mouth imparts a certain lingering bad taste that lasts for upwards of 1/2 hour if you have good stuff. And when vacuum packed and reopened will form clumps of hard rock and granules, whereas diluted stuff is more powdery and doesn't leave a long lasting foul taste. I once got some stuff at auction that was only 25% pure, it was really diluted, so now I avoid auction and just stick with direct from China. I used to love pureinfurnonutrition who had a store and also sold on ebay, but he closed shop around the sarms ban, even though mk677 is not affected. He sold for thirty five a gram, and it was A+ 100% pure. Nootropicssource stuff has been tested and found to be less than 75% pure, so stay away from them for sure. Again, research your source. You will know good stuff, you get good refreshing sleep and dreams, and for me good energy during the day, great recovery from workouts & strength increases over time, and it imparts and all day good mood for me and I actually do feel like I am 16 on it, young again.

 

[tregar]

I only bring up the last post above as from the middle of June till just about a week ago (mid July) I was using 3g of some mk677 I had bought from auction that was impure and did not realize it until later. I should have known as the taste of it was not as strong as normal, it did not leave a lingering foul taste in mouth for almost an hour, and it did not form granules or hard rock clumps when vacuum packed, someone had heavily diluted it. It was only about 25% pure (they cut it with something powdery). During that time I did not progress strength wise as I had on the pure stuff, I did not get that incredible refreshing sleep nor the crazy dreams...nor did I notice the increase in neurotransmitters during the day which gave me energy and helped me feel great all day and into the night when I came home. I was also coming home in not the greatest mood as i had been before, and I was falling asleep too quickly on the couch when I used to be able to stay up later into the night after coming home from my super long shifts.

Something was definately wrong, so I switched to the stuff that I knew was pure that I had bought previously and stored away, and low and behold I noticed the difference the very same day, great sleep and dreams, noticed the increased neurotransitters in the brain, good energy all day, pumps came back in the gym, strength increases returned, super recovery, the difference was like night and day.

So just be careful, just because somebody at auction posts a certificate of analysis they could have copied and pasted it from anywhere, what a waste of a hundred dollars for 3grams of crap. Thankfully I kept 3grams of superior mk677 that I knew was good from the effects it gave me for months, the way it formed granules and rocks when vacuum packed, and the super foul taste that would linger for a very long time when swished around the mouth. I can't stand scammers, so I thought I would bring that up and warn others. I have been taking the good mk677 now for a whole week, and I feel so much better, the energy all day, and super refreshing sleep/dreams, strength increases, super mood, I am so glad I am back on the good pure stuff. On the good pure stuff, I feel young and it shows in everything I do, 25mg of the pure stuff is definately the equivalent of 4iu of pharm grade GH for me.

I even did an experiment and took the heavily diluted impure stuff on one day, then switched back to the pure stuff the next day, and my mood/pumps/refreshing sleep/neutrotransmitters improved heavily on the pure stuff day, but went to crap on the alternate days I took the crappy diluted stuff. So buyer beware is all I have to say. I am glad to say I am once again making great progress in the gym by taking only the pure stuff, and I'm so glad to have the great mood and energy back all day again, not to mention waking up super refreshed. So always beware scammers.

 

[tregar]

Two very good articles about HMB:

1) HMB: Overrated, Overpriced, Or Overlooked? (Part 1, 2 and 3) by Derek Charlebois

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast7.htm

2) beta-Hydroxy beta-methylbutyric acid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Hydroxy_beta-methylbutyric_acid

3) MK677: The Beauty of Modern Science

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/beauty-modern-science-ibutamoren-mk-677/

I buy jewelry bag lots from Hobby lobby and load each one with 2g HMB + 5g bcaa + 1g creatine + 2g glutamine and take one followed by a cone of water from the fountain around 5 times a day. In the past 2months of adding this to my arsenal with daily mk677, I have noted very good strength and muscle gains, breaking previous records.

Does anyone else get good nootropic effects from mk677? I noticed all day good mood, enthusiasm to go workout, and in increase in feel-good and energy enhancement neutrotransmitters. I noticed this was semi-covered in the above article (3) concerning the brain regions involved with metabolic actions:

MK-677:

Acts as a ghrelin agonist
Stimulates brain regions involved with metabolic action
Dopamine
Opioid
Hypothalamus
Pituitary
Increases growth hormone levels

Will be back in August to post 6 month follow-up mk677 bloodwork. I'm going to wait one more month before I do bloodwork, as I had a month in there where I was taking heavily diluted stuff, so now that I am back on track with the purestuff, i will allow more time before pulling the bloods. Spouse is also doing baseline igf-1 bloodwork next week, and wants to try mk677 and then will post her bloodwork results.

 

[tregar]

The strength gains and recovery are impressive on MK677 (easily 20% plus like a study on the non-working out elderly showed), MK was the one item I added in which I noticed good strength gains 2 weeks later and still going strong some 5 months later. It really helps to have the igf-1 and GH levels of a gifted 16 year old now (372ng/ml me on daily 25mg mk677) compared to a 48 year old (227 me at high end baseline for age-group). And I can't say enough good things about using 8 to 10g of HMB daily (taken every 4 hours or so) as the half-life is 3 hours. I get the hmb powder and bcaa's dirt cheap from bulksupplements. Musclemedia 2000 was right about the HMB back in the day, it was just too expensive to use back then.

I've literally blown up in the past 6 months, putting on 26lbs of fat free mass thanks to 25mg mk677 in the morning + HMB 6 to 8g a day. I've had more people come up to me in the past few weeks talking about my size out of nowhere, and wanting to start discussions about muscles...catched me off guard many times. TRT at 200mg a week combined with mk677 and HMB is a true game changer. I was using TRT before, but it was the addition of the other two that helped cause such large dramatic muscular changes and fast strength increases not to mention incredible recovery.

How HMB is anti-catabolic:

There are not many studies on HMB. But the studies that do exist show HMB to have to some positive attributes.

Markers Of Cell Damage

There are three main markers which researchers look at when examining muscular proteolysis (breakdown of protein into peptides or amino acids) or damage: creatine phosphokinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), and 3-methylhistidine (3-MH). Research has shown HMB supplementation to decrease all of these parameters 3, 7.

3-MH only shows up in the blood when contractile proteins break down, making it the best marker to use when examining the effects of exercise on muscle tissue.

A study examining this marker found that after one week of exercising, urine 3-MH levels increased by 94% in the control group, 85% in the group supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day, and 50% in the group supplementing with 3 g HMB/day.

More interested is after two weeks of exercising, the urine 3-MH level of the control group was still 27% above their basal value, while the group supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day value was 4% below their basal value and the 3 g HMB/day group was 15% below their basal value12. This shows the supplementing with HMB decreases the amount of contractile protein being broken down.

One study showed that supplementing with HMB decreased CK levels below the initial screening values at the two week mark, while the placebo group's CK levels were more than five times as much as their initial screening value8.

CK levels in the blood rise from CK from muscle cells "leaking" out due to membrane damage. This study shows that supplementing with HMB decreases damage done to the membranes of muscle cells since there was less "leaking" of CK out of the cells8.

Plasma Amino Acids & Urea

The sum of essential amino acids (EAA) in plasma increased by 32% in subjects not supplementing with HMB, decreased by 9% in subjects supplementing with 1.5 g HMB/day, and decreased 18% in subjects supplementing with 3 g HMB/day3.

Urine and plasma urea nitrogen measurements are used to access a person's nitrogen balance. High levels indicate excessive protein breakdown or dietary protein intake.

A study that measured these parameters found that supplementing with 3 g HMB/day decreased urinary urea nitrogen by 42% and plasma urea nitrogen by 26%, while the placebo group's measurements increased 8.

This shows there was less protein breakdown in the HMB group since both groups consumed about the same amount of protein8.

Less Contractile protein Breakdown

The decrease in urinary 3-MH and plasma levels of EAA supports the theory that HMB decreases muscle proteolysis. Since the body cannot synthesis EAA, they must be acquired from dietary sources.

Therefore, any increase in EAA plasma levels would most likely be due to the breakdown of muscle tissue (the body's most abundant supply of amino acids). Two recent studies done by Smith et al. concluded "These results suggest that HMB attenuates PIF-induced activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway, reducing protein degradation."

 

[djbombsquad]

What do you think of the new mk677 cream from muscle gelz .? Legit or can’t penetrate skin.

 

[tregar]

Hi again djbombsquad. So long as the dimethyl isosorbide which is in it is as powerful as dmso (dimethylsulfoxide) then it should work well, but I know very little about dimethyl isosorbide. It looks like about $70 for perhaps a month supply. I can get 1 gram of the pure powder in the US for 60 with shipping, as I no longer use auction sites (due to potential scammers). or go directly to china to get for $15 to $26 a gram. I like to save money, so I try to get a gram of the oral only which last 1.5 months. I used to love pureinfernonutrition who carried 100% pure for $35, but they went out of business. He was also on auction as well as a store. He sold hundreds of very pure 1g lots, he is missed. I wrote about my scammed experience for a month above which makes me very careful nowadays. During that month of taking mk which was only around 25% pure, I got not the best sleep, not enchanced recovery from workouts, very little in the way of strength gains, felt normal instead of "super-human". It just plain sucked being off it for me at least. I have been back on track with the pure stuff for around a week now, and feel so much better, pumps are back, fast recovery is back, stength gains are back again, and sleep/recovery is just super, and I feel great during the day (good mood) with enhanced energy and enthusiasm towards workouts.

P.S. I don't recommend using 10g of hmb a day as it will result in loose stools, 6 to 8g is plenty.

 

[djbombsquad]

Hi again djbombsquad. So long as the dimethyl isosorbide which is in it is as powerful as dmso (dimethylsulfoxide) then it should work well, but I know very little about dimethyl isosorbide. It looks like about $70 for perhaps a month supply. I can get 1 gram of the pure powder in the US for 60 with shipping, as I no longer use auction sites (due to potential scammers). or go directly to china to get for $15 to $26 a gram. I like to save money, so I try to get a gram of the oral only which last 1.5 months. I used to love pureinfernonutrition who carried 100% pure for $35, but they went out of business. He was also on auction as well as a store. He sold hundreds of very pure 1g lots, he is missed. I wrote about my scammed experience for a month above which makes me very careful nowadays. During that month of taking mk which was only around 25% pure, I got not the best sleep, not enchanced recovery from workouts, very little in the way of strength gains, felt normal instead of "super-human". It just plain sucked being off it for me at least. I have been back on track with the pure stuff for around a week now, and feel so much better, pumps are back, fast recovery is back, stength gains are back again, and sleep/recovery is just super, and I feel great during the day (good mood) with enhanced energy and enthusiasm towards workouts.

P.S. I don't recommend using 10g of hmb a day as it will result in loose stools, 6 to 8g is plenty.

I never had loose stool lucky even at 15 grams.

 

[Cgkone]

The strength gains and recovery are impressive on MK677 (easily 20% plus like a study on the non-working out elderly showed), MK was the one item I added in which I noticed good strength gains 2 weeks later and still going strong some 5 months later. It really helps to have the igf-1 and GH levels of a gifted 16 year old now (372ng/ml me on daily 25mg mk677) compared to a 48 year old (227 me at high end baseline for age-group). And I can't say enough good things about using 8 to 10g of HMB daily (taken every 4 hours or so) as the half-life is 3 hours. I get the hmb powder and bcaa's dirt cheap from bulksupplements. Musclemedia 2000 was right about the HMB back in the day, it was just too expensive to use back then.

I've literally blown up in the past 6 months, putting on 26lbs of fat free mass thanks to 25mg mk677 in the morning + HMB 6 to 8g a day. I've had more people come up to me in the past few weeks talking about my size out of nowhere, and wanting to start discussions about muscles...catched me off guard many times. TRT at 200mg a week combined with mk677 and HMB is a true game changer. I was using TRT before, but it was the addition of the other two that helped cause such large dramatic muscular changes and fast strength increases not to mention incredible recovery.

25 lbs of fat free mass? In 6 months on mk677 and hmb

 

[Cgkone]

^^^ oh I forgot
Yeeeee riiiiight

 

[tregar]

Sorry if I was unclear: Don't forget the testosterone: that was with 6 months of 200mg a week TRT cypionate, 25mg a day mk677 + 8 grams of HMB a day. I was not on TRT before.

 

[mase1]

Yeah most gains are from 200mg test per week, don't fool yourself that hmb even helps with where your numbers are at that non clinical dose. Mk677 does help, but let's be real here.

 

[tregar]

Don't knock it till u try it.

 

[rtmilburn]

Well, I might as well close this thread since "all my gains are from testosterone", have you guys read anything I posted here? I'll keep my latest igf-1 results after 6 months to myself. And why even bother posting my spouse's results. I'll go back to professionalmuscle where they give a damn.

Whoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.

 

[JulzRulz]

Whoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.

Well said.

 

[81dcs]

Whoa. Don't let a couple of people ruin this for us all and you. I'm interested and I'm sure many others are. Keep up the good work.

Thats true. Dont go n e where I appreciate this thread

 

[tregar]

Agreed, thanks Brothers. Appreciate the kind words. Believe it or not, but I have a friend who is near 70 years old, I turned him on to mk677, and he told me he feels 30 years younger on it, and yes, he lifts weights still. He told another friend about out as well. I can get the same results with 25mg of mk677 daily as 4iu of really good pharm grade Chinese GH, so I use it, it's way cheaper. I have a couple GH kits in the fridge but sit un-touched. I pay about $200 for a 100iu gh kit, and around $35 for a gram mk677. I prefer the mk677 as it saves me money and gives me just as good results as the GH. I can feel and see the difference when I'm on it. Just like GH, you won't see immediate results muscle wise with the addition of the mk677, but just give it 2 weeks, gains are gradual but they are impressive gains. I had a month when I only used TRT and no mk677 and my gains were slow, but then I added the mk677, and my joint pains went away, a pump became apparent, and I noticed better gains on the mk677 within 2 weeks, and they did not slow down until the month I took the diluted stuff, then they took off again once I got back on the pure stuff. Re-read the studies I posted above on hmb as well, those who used hmb in the studies gained three times as much muscle mass as placebo in studies by Nielsen, and Smith (un-related to Nielsen) did protein breakdown studies on those who used hmb vs placebo and found them very greatly reduced on those who used hmb. The bodybuilder who posted the article at bodybuilding.com also gained well:

Derek:

Over the last four weeks of dieting (Summer 2004), I have been consuming about 2,500 calories a day.

I gained 0.795 pounds of lean mass WHILE losing 2.295 pounds of fat. Gaining muscle while losing fat? I thought that wasn't possible?

What is more impressive to me is I gained almost a full pound of lean mass over that two-week period, which would be an impressive gain even while bulking. So what changed during the second two weeks from the first two weeks in the above table? The change was the addition of HMB.

During the first two weeks, I was getting 3 grams of HMB a day (1.5 grams per serving of NitroJet). During week three, I added 3 more grams of HMB a day for a total of 6 grams of HMB per day. During the fourth week, I added another 2 grams of HMB for a total of 8 grams of HMB a day.

I should also note that these high doses of HMB (6 and 8 grams) were only taken on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday (the days I weight trained) with 5 grams per day on Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday (cardio and rest days).

I will be back with 6 month followup bloodwork end of August, and Spouse's bloodwork.

P.S. if you are one of the unfortunate who experience lethargy on mk677, then I cannot help you. Perhaps I am a weird responder, as I get no lethargy on it, just the opposite, good energy and mood all day. Perhaps try adding choline to your diet as GH signals work thru the choline system in the body. I do not read about tiredness in the studies on-line so it still boggles me that so many report this side effect. I get lethargy on cjc-1295 dac, whereas many others do not. Perhaps those who respond better to cjc-1295 only get lethargy on mk677 and vice versa, I have no idea. I do remember having one day of tiredness on my 2nd day of using mk677, but it completely went away after that. I also can feel more feel-good neurotransmitters being released in the brain all day as the gh pulses occur (see mind and muslcle article above for more on this) I truly feel like I'm 16 on it, and the blood work proves it, so I'm happy using it for many reasons.

 

[tregar]

Thanks 81dcs, ksa0812, SARMS.
------------------------------------------------------Summary:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will have been on mk677 at 25mg for 6 months (started in March) at the end of August when I will post my updated igf-1 results. Started at 227 baseline, after 2 weeks on mk677 went to 377. I should be "at" or "near" or "even above" 377 when I have bloods pulled again in a few weeks as today is 8/10/2018. I started taking mk677 in March. In the older adults studies, they took mk677 for 2 years, and there igf-1 levels were still as elevated or higher than when they had taken it just several weeks in. I posted the chart earlier in this thread. Perhaps I am a "weird responder" to the stuff as it gives me no lethargy even at 25mg. I actually do feel like I am 16 years old on the stuff even at age 48. Extra energy daily, workout recuperation is very good on it, and I have continued to make weekly gains in the gym on it (along with my TRT of course).

I also tested 4iu of chinese pharm grade back in day and it brought me to 382, so 25mg of mk677 for me is around the equivalent of 4iu of Chinese pharm grade gh which was/is used for small stature in the hospitals in China.
I did all this bloodwork at my local labcore down the street for around $69.00 a test. I just would put it on my health card.

I accidentaly went off the stuff for a whole month when I was testing out a heavily diluted mk677 that someone had cut, and I no longer felt "super-human" during that month, nor got the best sleep, gains slowed way down, and I lost enthusiasm to hit the gym during that month, so it really sucked for me during that month I was taking the diluted stuff (probably cut about 75% in my estimation). Plus the diluted stuff no longer formed bricks of similar crystal structure when vacuum packed and put in freezer (it was just powdery which is unlike pure mk677), not to mention the taste was much more mellow and the benzene ring did not linger in the mouth when swished around like pure mk677 which would leave an aftertaste in the mouth for 1/2 hour or longer like the pure. So I am happy to be back on the pure stuff for 1 month again now. The difference is like night and day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Stats: Age 48, 220lbs, 15% bodyfat. I have been on a ketogenic diet (high fat and protein) diet for quiet a while. I consume less than 20g of carbs daily, and when I do get carbs I get them from salad like vegetables like brocolli, spinach, squash,etc. I get about 200 to 220g of protein daily and my fats come from avacados, cheese, olive oil, etc. Breakfast is around 5 egg whites (i keep the yolk from 2 of them) scrambled with canned mushrooms and a patty of ground turkey mixed in. I love flank steak for dinner and always take in around 2 chicken breast at lunch with a salad. "Pizza bites" are a good keto snack made with pepperoni pieces with cheese on top and microwaved, as is sugar free jello with whole cream. One 50g protein shake daily made from pure protein met-rx with whey mixed in with water and a bit of whole cream and some frozen berries from costco. I lifted weights for around 15 years in my 20's and 30's and got back into it again recently. Sticking with it forever as I feel and look so much better when I lift.

On the days I workout I consume 4 tablespoons of crunchy peanut butter with 1/4 cup of oats in water about 1.5 hour pre-workout with my breakfast, this gives me around 25g of extra carbs for preworkout energy and then postworkout shake I add 1/4 cup of frozen berries for around 10g of carbs, so I take in an extra 35g of carbs only on my workout days with calories being an extra 500g only on workout days. The keto diet keeps me lean and muscle gain is very good on it as well. You don't need carbs to build muscle, but you do need plenty of protein and fats. All you need to know about ketogains here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index

Even though I always had a very low fat percentage when young, when I got older this all changed (after age 35 all the rules change). The keto diet helped me get from 24% bodyfat down to 15% bodyfat over a period of time while holding and building extra muscle the whole while. The TRT and mk677 and 6g plus hmb daily helped me add 25 lbs in 6 months while lifting very heavy in the gym 3 days a week. Chest/triceps/shoulders on day 1, legs on day 2, and back/biceps/abs on day 3, with a day or more between workouts depending on work schedule.

On the keto diet, you can go for long periods of not eating without feeling hungry, as your body is constantly burning fat and stored bodyfat for energy. Intermittent fasting works incredible while on it.

On my non-workout days I enjoy spending time in nature, taking my dog with me and walking sometimes for 1 to 2 hours in the parks near me that have beautiful rivers and crystal clear springs running through them. We also have a huge waterpark where I go to swim all summer and enjoy the trees, plants, and scenery surrounding the rides and pools by the river.

p.s I highly recommend taking a capsule of choline and pantothenic acid (a must for the conversion) with the mk677 as I feel it helps it work even better all day long. I take my mk677 in the morning with coffee. Pearson and Shaw back in the day posted studies that showed that GH works thru the choline system in the body, and by taking extra choline, you can increase the effectiveness of GH secratogogues. When I reached 377 ng/ml on my mk677 bloods, I was also taking it with choline.

As a nootropic, Vitamin B5 is crucial for converting the choline in your nootropic stack into acetylcholine (ACh). Without adequate levels of B5 you will not experience the benefits of using precursors to ACh like Alpha GPC and CDP-Choline.

 

[81dcs]

I know im younger (36yrs old) and im only using 1/2 the dose u r taking and.......yeah I feel 16 half the time and im sooooo much calmer. Think cleaner thoughts the whole nine yards. Im on trt 200mg week also alongside ive been keto also for 11 months now (I love it). My strength keeps slowly climbing with no lethargy either. Plus weight has dropped bout 8-10 lbs in 7 weeks and my muscles look more full. If I had the $ id do blood work but $'s tight, lol.......in short I love it and appreciate this log and you for persuading me to go ahead and start mk677. So thanks and keep us informed brother !!!

 

[81dcs]

So choline and pantothenic acid......gonna study up and rack up on some ....thanks

 

[81dcs]

Oh in 11 days I went from 195-190 because I dropped bcaa's. I should have mentioned that too.

 

[Outofbody]

sub'd. Great thread

 

[tregar]

Thanks outofbody and 81dcs.

81dcs said:

I know im younger (36yrs old) and im only using 1/2 the dose u r taking and.......yeah I feel 16 half the time and im sooooo much calmer. Think cleaner thoughts the whole nine yards. Im on trt 200mg week also alongside ive been keto also for 11 months now (I love it). My strength keeps slowly climbing with no lethargy either. Plus weight has dropped bout 8-10 lbs in 7 weeks and my muscles look more full. If I had the $ id do blood work but $'s tight, lol.......in short I love it and appreciate this log and you for persuading me to go ahead and start mk677. So thanks and keep us informed brother !!!

Thanks for the very good report 81dcs! Glad to hear you also experience no lethargy/tiredness. You can get really strong on a keto diet here are 2 really good studies, keep up the great work! In summary, lean body mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD or keto diet (4.3 ± 1.7 kgs ) as compared to the traditional diet group (2.2 kg ± 1.7)

These 2 studies are from the ketogains faq, see the studies 1/2 thru the paper: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index

The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass - Jacob T Rauch, Jeremy E Silva, Ryan P Lowery, Sean A McCleary, Kevin A Shields, Jacob A Ormes, Matthew H Sharp, Steven I Weiner, John I Georges, Jeff S Volek, Dominic P D’agostino, Jacob M Wilson.

Background

This is the first study ever to research very low carbohydrate ketogenic dieting (VLCKD) relative to a traditional high carbohydrate diet in resistance trained athletes.

Methods

Twenty-six college aged resistance trained men volunteered to participate in this study and were divided into VLCKD (5 % CHO, 75 % Fat, 20 % Pro) or a traditional western diet (55 % CHO, 25 % fat, 20 % pro). All subjects participated in a periodized resistance-training program 3x per week. Body fat and lean mass were determined via dual xray absorptiometry (DXA), while muscle mass was determined via ultrasonography analysis of the quadriceps. All measures were taken at week 0 and 11.

Results

Lean body mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD (4.3 ± 1.7 kgs ) as compared to the traditional group (2.2 kg ± 1.7).

Ultrasound determined muscle mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (0.4 ± 0.25 cm) as compared to the traditional western group (0.19 ± 0.26 cm). Finally fat mass decreased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (-2.2 kg ± 1.2 kg) as compared to the traditional group (- 1.5 ± 1.6 kg).

Conclusions

These results indicate that VLCKD may have more favorable changes in LBM, muscle mass, and body fatness as compared to a traditional western diet in resistance trained males.

Full paper: The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass

Note by Menno Henselmans: From what I gathered during Jacob Wilson’s presentation when we were both lecturing for the Norwegian Academy for Personal Training, this study included a carb-up at the end. This probably explains why lean mass rose so much in the ketogenic diet group, i.e. it’s glycogen and water, not muscle mass, though before the carb-up the ketogenic diet group still had better muscle growth and fat loss.

While strength gains may be lost initially during fat adaptation, it is very difficult (contrary to popular opinion) to lose lean mass on a ketogenic diet. All of this can be done using the SKD, although different goals may require slightly different approaches (this is where TKD or CKD may become useful).

Also, worth a read: Can you build muscle on a ketogenic diet? Article from BodyBuilding.com
Keto will cause muscle wastage and prevent hypertrophy.

Busted. While strength gains may be slowed initially during fat adaptation, it is very difficult (contrary to popular opinion) to lose lean mass on a ketogenic diet. As long as one eats enough protein (as per the guidelines here in the FAQ), muscle loss will be a non issue. Muscle hypertrophy will not be hindered by the lack of carbohydrates (read the myth above). The initial weight loss some people may experience, when doing keto is water loss, not muscle loss. Check this article for an example of how dramatic water loss can impact muscle size, visually.

Also, check the image. First Pic is hydrated, second dehydrated, taken one day apart.

More studies:

"Body Composition and Hormonal Responses to a Carbohydrate Restricted Diet" Jeff S. Volek et al

In summary, a 6 week carbohydrate restricted diet resulted in a favorable response in body composition (decreased fat mass and increased lean body mass) in normal weight men. Our results indicate that endocrine adaptations may partially mediate the accelerated fat loss, in particular the decrease in circulating insulin concentrations.

"Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass" Anssi H Manninen

Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein..

Also, resistance training helps prevent lean mass (muscle) loss on keto:

The aim of the present study was to compare the effects of 10 weeks resistance training in combination with either a regular diet (Ex) or a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (Lc+Ex) in overweight women on body weight and body composition. ... The Lc+Ex group lost 5.6 ± 2.9 kg of fat mass (p = 0.001) with no significant change in lean body mass (LBM) Jabekk PT, et al. "Resistance training in overweight women on a ketogenic diet conserved lean body mass while reducing body fat."[2] Nutr Metab (Lond). 2010 Mar 2;7:17. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-7-17.
But what about glycogen? Glycogen is needed to build muscle, right?

Half-truth. Glycogen helps, but you really don't need it to build muscle. To build muscle, you need protein, excess of calories (which can come from carbs, protein or fat) and hypertrophy training.

Glycogen only acts as an extra fuel source for the muscles, which will help you lift 5-10 more lbs or do 5-10 extra reps, or last a little longer if you are doing endurance training (prevent bonking).

 

[tregar]

If you want to know the power of having high GH levels, or what HGH can do for you, check out the autobiography of professional baseball player Barry Bonds, HGH radically changed his life at age 40 and allowed him to compete with the young pro's once again, and even surpass them. I read his biography, very revealing.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

I read as much as I could, but these are some looooong posts - tldr; does mk-677 result in proper spiked releases of gh in males, or is the "bleed'? so much back and forth. also, no down-regulation with every day dosing? - thats another back and forth i hear. I can actually get prescription ibutamoren but as expected it's expensive as heck - i wish there were known, reliable, cheaper sources. thanks for all the info.

 

[Newth]

I read as much as I could, but these are some looooong posts - tldr; does mk-677 result in proper spiked releases of gh in males, or is the "bleed'? so much back and forth. also, no down-regulation with every day dosing? - thats another back and forth i hear. I can actually get prescription ibutamoren but as expected it's expensive as heck - i wish there were known, reliable, cheaper sources. thanks for all the info.

Really good first point.

 

[TRIGUY]

anyone recommend a "GMP" manufactured HIGH quality HMB????? pharm grade maybe?

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

anyone recommend a "GMP" manufactured HIGH quality HMB????? pharm grade maybe?

cGMP is just an fda guideline (21 cfr 111) in the us - so not applicable in the rest of the world. isn't "pharm grade" mostly a marketing term? (not *always" - there is prescription fish oil for example). but is there prescription hmb? all the hmb-ca i've used (two different bulk suppliers) looked, smelled, and tasted (yuk!) the same - i don't think there is a lot of bogus hmb out there.

 

[scoooter]

cGMP is just an fda guideline (21 cfr 111) in the us - so not applicable in the rest of the world. isn't "pharm grade" mostly a marketing term? (not *always" - there is prescription fish oil for example). but is there prescription hmb? all the hmb-ca i've used (two different bulk suppliers) looked, smelled, and tasted (yuk!) the same - i don't think there is a lot of bogus hmb out there.

saw this just posted
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/305454-study-hmb-worthless.html

 

[tregar]

Answers to some of the questions:

(0) Unlike cjc-1295 dac, the pharmaceutical effects from mk677 are considered low wave spread out pulsing and not a "bleed" as datbtrue labled cjc-1295 dac back in the day. MK677's effects can be considered very similar to a ghrp 6 shot taken 12 times in a 24 hr period. I have all of datbtrue's old papers on the ghrp2's, 6's, cjc's, etc. and have read them many times. He was considered the guru on peptides, he is missed and was a very smart researcher. I only wished he would have performed some bloodwork on the peptides, but I can see why he did not, as it is very expensive, but I posted some limited bloodwork on the peptide shots on post #1 of this thread in the very beginning, and you can compare bloodwork values with those from mk677 as they are shown side by side.

An intersting aside, is that cjc-1295 dac caused me to have lethargy daily and I did not like it, whereas mk677 gives me no lethargy what so ever, but rather a very good improvement in mood daily as well as energy, I feel sharper, more with it, and mood is excellent when on it. It appears people all respond differently, so if you get lethargy on one of them, perhaps try the other out to see if it is different. But I also think cjc-1295 is expensive and starts to approach the cost of real HGH at effective doses, so I would rather just use real HGH if say perhaps mk677 gave me bad lethargy, which it does not thankfully.

1) Check back in end of August when I will return with updated 6 month followup igf-1 bloodwork, in a way, one of the points of this thread is to determine if mk677 is still effective 6 months later. Believe it or not, but in the older adults study posted on-line, mk677 was shown to still be effective 1 and even 2 years later when taken daily by the participants, and it works at any age, no matter how old you are. I am personally doing followup bloodwork every 6 months to see if this is really true.

2) After ingestion, MK-677 signals the pituitary gland to secrete more growth hormone. In the next 24 hours after taking your dose, MK-677 will stimulate your pituitary gland to release over a dozen low amplitude GH pulses, which then stimulate the liver to produce Insulin-Like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1). In other words, MK-677 puts out over a dozen low wave HGH pulses per 24 hour period.

With bloodwork, I personally found a 25mg dose to equal the equivalent of 4iu of pharm grade GH from China. This will vary depending on how high your body allready secretes GH naturally for your age. Some will only find it to be the equivalent of 3iu of GH, while others will find it to equal 4iu of GH. I was allready at the high end for my age group (227 ng/ml), and the mk677 (25mg in the morning after 2 weeks) brought me to 372 ng/ml, while 4iu of GH brought me to 380 ng/ml. 4iu of GH brought me up 153 points, while mk677 brought me up 145 points. This is nothing to sneeze about, as 150 extra points helps with enhanced recovery from workouts, gains in the gym over time, lubrication of joints, increased muscle mass and bone density, enhanced brain function, good sleep, daytime energy, stamina, strength, metabolism, lower body fat, elevated mood, renewed skin and hair, etc. basically all the enhancements you see with a gifted 16 year old, as 370 to 380 is around the level a gifted 16 year old makes naturally.

3) HMB can be found very cheap at some places, 2 decades ago, it was too expensive (due to patent) to be used by most people at the doses shown to be effective (3 to 6 grams). I recommend (like Dereck) that a minimum dose is around 4 to 6 grams a day, don't go over 8 grams or loose stools. I was using 8 grams a day, but cut back to 6 grams a day, taking 2g every 6 hours or so. See part 1, 2 and 3 of Derke's paper (link) posted below for explanation of it's anti-catabolic effects. I do not find hmb to be worthless, in fact, just the opposite.

Best paper with all the studies on HMB: https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/hmb-overrated-overpriced-or-overlooked-part1.html Also see the wikipedia entry on HMB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Hydroxy_beta-methylbutyric_acid. After 6 months, on leg day, I am now pressing on the decline leg press with 4x45 plates on each side for 20 reps. Then I add another 45 plate to each side and do this for 10 reps for 2 more sets, so I am more than happy of my progress over 6 months, as I keep a weekly diary of the weights I lift, and my bench press is finally the most I have ever lifted, far exceeding what I used to do in my early 20's.

The study that found "HMB to be worthless" is talked about in Derek's article above, and was found to contain several critical errors which he goes over in part 3 of his paper below. I only know that when I added in HMB 3 months ago, I did
notice an improvement in lean mass and strength about 2 weeks later and still continues, but I don't know everything there is to know about it except what I have read, so I will leave that up to the reader and weight lifter to find out if it makes a difference through experimentation on their own, let us know what you think.

The Studies That Concluded HMB To Be Ineffective:

Kreider RB, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Almada AL. Effects of Calcium ß-Hydroxy-ß-methylbutyrate (HMB) Supplementation During Resistance-Training on Markers of Catabolism, Body Composition and Strength. Int J Sports Med 1999; 20: 503-5091

Though the increases are small, we see that despite the caloric difference between the groups (the Control group consuming more calories) the 6 g HMB group gained three times as much lean mass as the Control group. This pattern and gains are similar to the results in one of the studies done by Nissen4.

Again, despite the small increases, the HMB groups' strength increased more than the Control group's.

Even though the Control group consumed more total calories per day, the HMB groups made better progress. Though the difference is not statistically significant, it still exists. One flaw I see in this study is that there was no dietary control. Therefore, it is difficult to isolate other variables to further identify either positive or negative contributions from HMB.

Since the HMB groups' caloric intake was hundreds of calories lower than the control group, I think this demonstrates how effective HMB can be. I would like to know what the results would have yielded if the HMB groups consumed the same number of calories?

Another flaw in the study is there was no training control. We do not know if the subjects were training to failure, what percentage of their 1-RM they were using, whether or not they were increasing the weights they used when possible, etc.

Training provides the stimulus for growth. If the subjects were not inflicting a stimulus strong enough to cause growth, they will not grow or get stronger.

The study concluded that HMB does not affect lean mass or strength, but the results show it does. However, the lack of control in the study makes the results questionable. These findings show why it is important to read entire study articles and not just the abstracts.

 

[djbombsquad]

Bloodwork study of 4iu GH vs peptides & MK677 (similar to 2-3 iu GH)

Maybe my loose stools is from hmb in the past. I did Moab when I first came out before at 3 servings a day over 10 hours but every time I had to poop more on days I took Moab.

 

[tregar]

Same here djbombsquad, have to keep the hmb around 6 and max of 8g a day or else happens to me too.

One thing I have noticed on the keto diet, since there is less insulin floating around, that I think it helps the effectiveness of the mk677 pulses, as the dreams I have at night on the mk677 are really vivid and long-lasting. Super great sleep on the mk677 and the dreams are amazing. Higher GH with less insulin during the day is a good a feeling anyways. I do try to replace any lost glycogen in the muscles by taking in an extra 35g of carbs before/after workouts, then keto resumes again in a few hours later on workout days. The muscles are a bit flat on keto, but it's easy to get shredded and I can go for long periods without feeling hungry as body fat is being burned for energy. But there is no loss of strength, and actually getting stronger each workout is easy on keto. It's great for people with more insulin resistance as they get older.

I notice I get the same kind of crazy long lasting vivid dreams on 25mg mk677 taken in the morning on the keto diet that I used to get when I tried Chinese pharm grade gh at 4 and even 5iu a day. Some of the dreams have a fascinating twist at the end that throws everything on it's head and then ties it all together, difficult to explain, like a puzzle that reveals a unique ending.

 

[TRIGUY]

Same here djbombsquad, have to keep the hmb around 6 and max of 8g a day or else happens to me too.

One thing I have noticed on the keto diet, since there is less insulin floating around, that I think it helps the effectiveness of the mk677 pulses, as the dreams I have at night on the mk677 are really vivid and long-lasting. Super great sleep on the mk677 and the dreams are amazing. Higher GH with less insulin during the day is a good a feeling anyways. I do try to replace any lost glycogen in the muscles by taking in an extra 35g of carbs before/after workouts, then keto resumes again in a few hours later on workout days. The muscles are a bit flat on keto, but it's easy to get shredded and I can go for long periods without feeling hungry as body fat is being burned for energy. But there is no loss of strength, and actually getting stronger each workout is easy on keto. It's great for people with more insulin resistance as they get older.

I notice I get the same kind of crazy long lasting vivid dreams on 25mg mk677 taken in the morning on the keto diet that I used to get when I tried Chinese pharm grade gh at 4 and even 5iu a day. Some of the dreams have a fascinating twist at the end that throws everything on it's head and then ties it all together, difficult to explain, like a puzzle that reveals a unique ending.

who is the most knowledgable on KETO/40+ guys/slin/ bodybuilding??

looking to educate myself, not sue how to do KETO w/ slin

 

[tregar]

For more info on keto: Just go to your local target and check out the bestseller (gotta love Target, always lots of hot women walking around):

The Keto Reset Diet: Reboot Your Metabolism in 21 Days and Burn Fat Forever Hardcover – October 3, 2017
by Mark Sisson, and also check out the ketogains website started by the bodybuilder Luis Villasenor (from South America) he has been keto for 17 years, and he looks amazing.

Avacados became my best friend on keto, lots of healthy fats and just as much fiber as it has carbs. I spice my chicken breast up with keto versions of alfredo sauce, etc. lowcarbyum website has many treasures.

I eat lots of frozen chopped spinach with a cream sauce made keto -- it uses 1 tablespoon cream cheese + 1 tablespoon heavy whipping cream + 1 tablespoon sour cream (1.3g carbs total) which you add right on top the spinach in the sauce pan, and the taste is amazing. Of course, lots of broccoli with just about everything. And flank steak is absolutely hands down my favorite steak, very lean and taste is great.

Low carb Sherry mushroom cream sauce for chicken breasts:
http://ammslowcarblife.blogspot.com/2012/12/sherry-mushroom-cream-sauce-yum.html#.W3nNTsInaUk

* Sherry Cooking Wine 2tbsp for a strong sherry flavor, one for a milder flavor
* Heavy Whipping Cream 1/2C (or 8 tbsp)
* Mushrooms - if you like a "chunky" sauce, use more mushrooms - for a "saucier" sauce, use less.
* 2 Tbsp Butter
------------------------------
Low carb keto alfredo sauce for chicken breasts:
https://www.wholesomeyum.com/recipes/low-carb-keto-alfredo-sauce-garlic-parmesan-cream-sauce-recipe/

1 tbsp butter
6 cloves garlic
1.5 cup heavy whipping cream
1/2 cup grated parmesan cheese
black pepper, salt, dash of nutmeg

 

[tregar]

Loosing fat fast: take 400+mg of alpha-lipoic acid 1/2 hour before meals, follow the targetted keto diet (called a TKD but add +35g or more carbs around workout for glycogen replenishment to muscles), and eat only between 10am and 6pm (intermittent fasting = 16 hours). You can preserve muscle mass + add just as much lean muscle mass as normal diet + loose 3 times as much fat.

A few of my favorite studies, they work!

1) Weight loss faster with alpha-lipoic acid:
http://www.ergo-log.com/weight-loss-faster-with-alpha-lipoic-acid.html

2) Eat only between 10 o'clock in the morning and 6 o'clock in the evening, and lose weight effortlessly:
http://www.ergo-log.com/eat-only-between-10-o-clock-in-the-morning-and-6-o-clock-in-the-evening.html

3) Experienced strength athletes lose fat by intermittent fasting, not muscle mass or strength:
http://www.ergo-log.com/strength-athletes-lose-fat-by-intermittent-fasting-not-muscle-mass-or-strength.html

4) The anticatabolic effect of 100 mg DHEA daily
http://www.ergo-log.com/anticatabolic-effect-of-100-mg-dhea-daily.html

5) Build 9 kg more lean body mass with HMB-ATP combo:
http://www.ergo-log.com/9-kg-more-lean-body-mass-with-hmb-atp-combo.html

6) Twelve weeks' training with HMB Free Acid: 7 kg lean body mass gain, 5 kg fat loss:
http://www.ergo-log.com/twelve-weeks-training-with-hmb-free-acid-7-kg-lean-body-mass-gain-5-kg-fat-loss.html

7) Creatine plus HMB:
http://www.ergo-log.com/creatine-plus-hmb.html

8) HMB makes trained athletes even slimmer and fitter:
http://www.ergo-log.com/hmb-makes-trained-athletes-even-slimmer-and-fitter.html

9) 1g HMB raises bodybuilders' growth hormone and IGF-1 levels:
http://www.ergo-log.com/1g-hmb-raises-bodybuilders-growth-hormone-and-IGF-1-levels.html

10) Maybe it's possible to stack leucine (from BCAA's) with HMB:
http://www.ergo-log.com/maybe-it-s-possible-to-stack-leucine-with-hmb.html

11) Betaine gives bodybuilders more muscle and less fat
http://www.ergo-log.com/betaine-gives-bodybuilders-more-muscle-and-less-fat.html

12) The shake before bedtime is just as effective during the day:
http://www.ergo-log.com/the-shake-before-bedtime-is-just-as-effective-during-the-day.html

13) Apigenin (half life 12 hrs) is a natural anabolic compound in parsley: (around $9 for 50mg x 90 caps)
http://www.ergo-log.com/apigenin-anabolic.html

14) Luteolin lowers estradiol level with favorable results on cholesterol balance, unlike the pharmaceutical letrolzole.
http://www.ergo-log.com/animal-study-luteolin-lowers-estradiol-level.html

15) Luteolin (human equivalent 3 mg per kg) the anti-oestrogen in celery:
http://www.ergo-log.com/luteolin-anti-oestrogen-in-celery.html

16) The joint anabolic effect of EPA and HMB:
http://www.ergo-log.com/hmbplusepa.html

17) Medical study: protein builds more muscle mass with fish oil (EPA & DHA):
http://www.ergo-log.com/fishoilprotein.html

18) L-Carnitine makes fasting easier and more effective:
http://www.ergo-log.com/l-carnitine-makes-fasting-easier-more-effective.html

19) Curcumin supplementation: more glycogen, less lactic acid, more stamina, more strength:
http://www.ergo-log.com/curcumin-supplementation-glycogen-lactic-acid-stamina-strength.html

Concerning #17: The addition of EPA to the protein just about doubled the increase in lean body mass [and so also the increase in muscle mass]. The test subjects took an average of 1.5 g EPA/day. A cheap 1000 mg fish-oil capsule contains 180 mg EPA. If it's only EPA that stimulates muscle building, then you'd need to take 8 fish-oil capsules a day. But the same fish-oil capsules also contain 120 mg DHA. If DHA works as well as EPA (and we think that it does), then 5 fish-oil capsules a day would be enough.

Concerning #16: The researchers worked out how the anticatabolic effect of HMB and EPA (fatty acid from fish oil) works. The compounds inhibit the proteasome in the muscle cells. The graph below shows the extent to which they do this. The proteasome is a kind of cellular demolition workshop, where the enzyme chymotrypsin cuts up proteins into little pieces.

Concerning #14 and #15: After 12 weeks, the researchers measured the estradiol concentration in the mice's blood. The anti-oestrogenic effect of the highest dose of luteolin was the same as that of letrozole.

Long-term use of pharmacological aromatase inhibitors leads to side effects, one of which is that the cholesterol balance becomes worse. The LDL concentration increases and that of HDL decreases. Luteolin also inhibits aromatase, but this flavone has the opposite effect on cholesterol balance. Luteolin lowers the LDL concentration and raises the HDL concentration.

Luteolin was the best estradiol inhibitor. It inhibits estradiol synthesis at a concentration as low as 1 micromole. In second place was kaempferol.

Concerning #13: The human equivalent of the doses tested was approximately 20 and 40 milligrams daily. Mechanism: Apigenin increased the production of contractile muscle proteins [MHC], the anabolic hormones IGF-1 and IGF-2, and PGC-1-alpha, a signal molecule that stimulates cells to manufacture more mitochondria.

We found that apigenin increases quadriceps muscle weight in mice and increases their running distance on an accelerating treadmill", the researchers summarized. "These events are attributable to upregulation of the Prmt7-PGC-1-alpha-GPR56 signaling pathway." "We also found that apigenin induces myogenic differentiation by regulating Prmt7-p38-myoD and the Akt-S6K1 pathway in C2C12 cells." "These results suggest that apigenin could be used as a functional food to prevent muscle loss and enhance muscle function."

Apigenin has been shown in experiments to suppress the progression of prostate cancer and colon cancer, improve memory (at least in animals), ameliorate insulin resistance, and inhibit the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

Concerning #11: Results: At the end of the six weeks the bodybuilders who had taken 2.5g betaine daily had lost a couple of percent fat mass (around 3% more bodyfat than placebo!) On top of that, the betaine supplementation also resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass (around 3 extra lean kg compared to placebo). The scans that the researchers did showed that the bodybuilders in the betaine group had also gained more muscle in their arms (6 more CSA m2).

One possibility the researchers suggest is that betaine works as a natural synthol. "Because betaine is a powerful osmolyte, the increases in lean mass may have been due to cellular swelling without an appreciable increase in myofibril protein accretion."

Concerning #1: The mitochondria, the cellular power stations, need alpha-lipoic acid to convert nutrients into energy. If you give alpha-lipoic acid to lab animals and humans their energy expenditure rises and they lose weight.

Concerning #7 and #10: I premake 3 packets (in jewelry bags from Hobby Lobby) which I take throughout the day, each contain 2g HMB, 5g BCAA, 2g glutamine + 1g creatine +1g betaine. I swallow down this packet with water on work days at 6am, 12pm, and 6pm, and at different times on workout days.

Concerning #2 and #3 and #12: This not only works eating between 10am and 6pm only, but it allows me to spend the cool part of the morning walking my dog (he doesn't tolerate the heat, and since I work 12 hr shifts, I have just as many off days as on days) in the parks with shady trees, rivers and crystal clear streams for an hour or more, and then eat lunch at 11am and workout 1.5 hour or so later. I then take a protein shake post workout and eat a dinner of flank steak usually. This gives me 175g+ of protein daily within the 8 hour window. In my 20's I also skipped breakfast, and only ate within an 8 hour window, this kept me super lean and always at a 12% or less bodyfat without even trying. It still works today.

Concerning #1: Graph: 600 calories a day less than they were used to for the 20 weeks that the experiment lasted plus
600 mg alpha-lipoic acid x 3 times per day 1/2 hour before meals speeds up weight loss compared to placebo.

Concerning #3 (Fast 16 hours, eat only 8 hours during day): Throughout the experiment both groups built up about the same amount of muscle mass and gained about the same amount of muscle strength. There are a few differences in the figure below, but these were not statistically significant.

The difference in effect of intermittent fasting on fat mass was statistically significant: The intermittent-fasting group lost body fat.

 

[JulzRulz]

Great info!

 

[Brienn8989]

tregar have you found anything that you feels help to maximize the mk? Starting my run this week and am planning on taking with green tea capsules. I know earlier in this thread you mentioned ornithine, have you incorporated that?

 

[tregar]

Thanks JulzRulz. Hi Brienn8989, good luck with your mk677 start up. Yes, I there are some things you can take to make it even stronger. I take 200mg of Citicoline CDP Choline from Jarrow formulas along with a capsule of vitamin B5 or pantothenic acid, this greatly helps the choline convert to acetylcholine in the brain. As GH works thru the choline system, as written by Pearson and Shaw back in the day, I actually do feel that on the days that I take the choline, the effects from the mk677 are even more pronounced and stronger. Caffeine free egcg capsule is also good to take or green tea capsule like you mention. There is lots written about this on forums here and elsewhere about choline and egcg helping with peptides and any form of gh secratogogue so I won't go into it here, but russianstar wrote a paper on this. Some prefer the huperzine A by itself with green tea, I used that in the past, but I prefer just a capsule of choline now with b5, just like pearson and shaw used in their gh secreting formulas. If you can find it, there is a formula on line that has 200mg citcoline with 100mg alpha gpc, this is a super formula that you can take with vitamin b5. I take the choline and b5 at the same time I take the 25mg mk677, and when I have egcg I add that too.

The best formula I feel is the one from purenootropics.net which is Optimal Choline Complex which contains 200mg CDP choline and 100mg alpha GPC choline, so you get both forms of choline in one pill. Just add vitamin b5.

Cool that you remember that yes, before every workout, I take 6 capsules of Now sports arginine/ornithine for a total of 3g L-arginine and 1.5 gram L-ornithine, I showed studies earlier in this thread that show a very large increase in GH when taken before workouts that last for several hours, I always use this before workouts, and Yes, I do believe it is very effective to take along with mk677. As MK677 has been shown to raise gh during workouts, the arginine/ornithine does the same and they both add on top each other.

You can get very large increases during workouts with mk677 and the arginine/ornithing--just the arg/orn alone can raise igf-1 into the 600 ng/ml igf-1 ! during workouts as shown in the most recent studies, very good paper. That is the equivalent of 6iu of GH for several hours ! See post #10 for the graphs and study. I used the same formula in my 20's and 30's and it really worked back then as well. In the study they compare the igf-1 of placebo to those taking the amino acids, and what a difference while working out. The placebo only got up to 400 ng/ml igf-1.

 

[TRIGUY]

Thanks JulzRulz. Hi Brienn8989, good luck with your mk677 start up. Yes, I there are some things you can take to make it even stronger. I take 200mg of Citicoline CDP Choline from Jarrow formulas along with a capsule of vitamin B5 or pantothenic acid, this greatly helps the choline convert to acetylcholine in the brain. As GH works thru the choline system, as written by Pearson and Shaw back in the day, I actually do feel that on the days that I take the choline, the effects from the mk677 are even more pronounced and stronger. Caffeine free egcg capsule is also good to take or green tea capsule like you mention. There is lots written about this on forums here and elsewhere about choline and egcg helping with peptides and any form of gh secratogogue so I won't go into it here, but russianstar wrote a paper on this. Some prefer the huperzine A by itself with green tea, I used that in the past, but I prefer just a capsule of choline now with b5, just like pearson and shaw used in their gh secreting formulas. If you can find it, there is a formula on line that has 200mg citcoline with 100mg alpha gpc, this is a super formula that you can take with vitamin b5. I take the choline and b5 at the same time I take the 25mg mk677, and when I have egcg I add that too.

The best formula I feel is the one from purenootropics.net which is Optimal Choline Complex which contains 200mg CDP choline and 100mg alpha GPC choline, so you get both forms of choline in one pill. Just add vitamin b5.

Cool that you remember that yes, before every workout, I take 6 capsules of Now sports arginine/ornithine for a total of 3g L-arginine and 1.5 gram L-ornithine, I showed studies earlier in this thread that show a very large increase in GH when taken before workouts that last for several hours, I always use this before workouts, and Yes, I do believe it is very effective to take along with mk677. As MK677 has been shown to raise gh during workouts, the arginine/ornithine does the same and they both add on top each other.

You can get very large increases during workouts with mk677 and the arginine/ornithing--just the arg/orn alone can raise igf-1 into the 600 ng/ml igf-1 ! during workouts as shown in the most recent studies, very good paper. That is the equivalent of 6iu of GH for several hours ! See post #10 for the graphs and study. I used the same formula in my 20's and 30's and it really worked back then as well. In the study they compare the igf-1 of placebo to those taking the amino acids, and what a difference while working out. The placebo only got up to 400 ng/ml igf-1.
View attachment 170034

Which form of Arginine & ornithine? HCL? Alpha Keto Glutarate?

 

[djbombsquad]

Same here djbombsquad, have to keep the hmb around 6 and max of 8g a day or else happens to me too.

One thing I have noticed on the keto diet, since there is less insulin floating around, that I think it helps the effectiveness of the mk677 pulses, as the dreams I have at night on the mk677 are really vivid and long-lasting. Super great sleep on the mk677 and the dreams are amazing. Higher GH with less insulin during the day is a good a feeling anyways. I do try to replace any lost glycogen in the muscles by taking in an extra 35g of carbs before/after workouts, then keto resumes again in a few hours later on workout days. The muscles are a bit flat on keto, but it's easy to get shredded and I can go for long periods without feeling hungry as body fat is being burned for energy. But there is no loss of strength, and actually getting stronger each workout is easy on keto. It's great for people with more insulin resistance as they get older.

I notice I get the same kind of crazy long lasting vivid dreams on 25mg mk677 taken in the morning on the keto diet that I used to get when I tried Chinese pharm grade gh at 4 and even 5iu a day. Some of the dreams have a fascinating twist at the end that throws everything on it's head and then ties it all together, difficult to explain, like a puzzle that reveals a unique ending.

I take sodium and I look full haha .

I call it the Keto pump lol.

 

[djbombsquad]

So maybe nitrosigine at 1.5 grams for hg release .

 

[tregar]

Awesome! Yes, you look plenty full in the muscles djbombsquad! good job on the keto. Can't argue with that pump. Sodium + creatine + betaine (see post #138 above) all work miracles together for osmosis to the muscles as well on keto. People will say it doesn't matter if your GH is only raised sky high for those few hours you are lifing, but I say it does matter--it's a great way to burn fat with levels like that during that time. for TRIGUY: The form of arginine is free form in the formula but the ornithine is from the hcl. I can get 250 of the capsules for less than 10 bucks from NOW. I just like the caps form of this because I could not imagine the taste in powder form. I remember back in the day the lady who owned the herb store pointed me to the only GH formula at the time (back then it was Twinlab's GH fuel), she said it would be the best buy in the store for a bodybuilder, and she was right. You never read of any complaints from anybody who tried the formula out preworkout--they just don't exist--all super positive raving reviews, and for a reason. How can you argue with having GH levels during that time that are equal to 6iu of pharm grade gh. Combined with mk677, I am sure they are much higher than that for those few hours (during and post-workout). I used the formula for at least 10 plus years in my 20's and I loved the results. Rock hard dense muscles + super low bodyfat. I still love the formula to this day. If you like nitrosigine at 1.5 grams, then stick with that...should be very similar.

 

[Brienn8989]

Thanks for the help brother. This thread has helped me to pull the trigger on mk. I have some cdp choline, b5, l arg/orn on its way and will be using the egcg capsules along with megadosing fish oil.

 

[tregar]

Brienn8989

Thanks for the help brother. This thread has helped me to pull the trigger on mk. I have some cdp choline, b5, l arg/orn on its way and will be using the egcg capsules along with megadosing fish oil.

Good luck brother, let us know how it goes. I could not be happier and for a tiny fraction of the cost of GH. Great sleep, great gains, great mood all day. And you can never go wrong w/fish oil. Studies (post #138 above) show 5g a day can lead to twice the amount of lean mass gained in combination with protein compared to just protein alone. Fish oil makes you smarter too and keeps you from getting depressed, nature's miracle food and it lowers triglycerides big time, very healthy stuff. Fish oil was the one thing that helped me over the depression of loosing a very loved pet years ago. I know that he is fine as he visited both of us in a twighlight dream state at the exact same time with the happiest smile on his face, and he was young again and healthy.

 

[djbombsquad]

Bloodwork study of 4iu GH vs peptides & MK677 (similar to 2-3 iu GH)

I like the alpha gpc 800mg 3x a day , hup a once a day , cdp choline 3 Times a day and combo this with some nitrosigine(1750 mg) ornathine (3000mg) sustamine (5ooomg) and boom

 

[rtmilburn]

I like the alpha gpc 800mg 3x a day , hup a once a day , cdp choline 3 Times a day and combo this with some nitrosigine(1750 mg) ornathine (3000mg) sustamine (5ooomg) and boom

Holy fck that's a lot of choline

 

[chainsaw]

Brienn8989


Good luck brother, let us know how it goes. I could not be happier and for a tiny fraction of the cost of GH. Great sleep, great gains, great mood all day. And you can never go wrong w/fish oil. Studies (post #138 above) show 5g a day can lead to twice the amount of lean mass gained in combination with protein compared to just protein alone. Fish oil makes you smarter too and keeps you from getting depressed, nature's miracle food and it lowers triglycerides big time, very healthy stuff. Fish oil was the one thing that helped me over the depression of loosing a very loved pet years ago. I know that he is fine as he visited both of us in a twighlight dream state at the exact same time with the happiest smile on his face, and he was young again and healthy.

5g of fish oil can be expensive where do you find cheap fish oik