Who wants a new BLR SERM?!

[abformulations]

Everyone testing it says this. I need to be certain though. By the way you have a big pack coming. Pre New ai And some other goodies.

You have my approval thus far.

My man ;-) can't wait

 

[brundel]

Plant-derived 3,3'-Diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells.
Le HT1, Schaldach CM, Firestone GL, Bjeldanes LF.
Author information
Abstract

3,3'-Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen-independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration-dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a prostate-specific antigen promoter-regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with green fluorescent protein androgen receptor and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced androgen receptor (AR) translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.
==============================================================
There is every reason to believe DIM will also block androgens in skeletal muscle.
Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid This indicates that DIM DOES in fact bind to and block action at other AR sites.
DIM is a STRONG antiandrogen that will prevent test and DHT and other androgens from binding not only in prostate but also in skeletal muscle and other tissue. So say otherwise would indicate that you have some reason to mislead people.

 

[furion]

I agree with everything in the article and it more or less asserts what I posted previously. In most cases for LnCAP and PC-3 cell lines the AR undergoes mutation- I dare say as this may occur to increase androgen responsiveness as these cancer cells are androgen dependant. Therefore it is far too much of a stretch to assume that this activity of DIM extends to the AR of other tissues. The established AR antagonist mentioned in that abstract is biclutamide- which does not have measurable effect on muscle tissue in terms of the manifestations of its antiandrogenic activity.

 

[kisaj]

I would love a good fat burner. I didn't get to try the transdermal AI with it in it, but know I dried up with only the AI portion.

 

[koi1214]

I would love a good fat burner. I didn't get to try the transdermal AI with it in it, but know I dried up with only the AI portion.

Curious to hear your thoughts on the preworkout formula.

 

[kisaj]

I've tried part of it already, but really looking forward to this update.

 

[abformulations]

I've tried part of it already, but really looking forward to this update.

Yep same here. More ingredients to test out.

 

[koi1214]

I've tried part of it already, but really looking forward to this update.

Yep same here. More ingredients to test out.

1st impressions??

 

[abformulations]

1st impressions??

Good but can't say much because it wasn't complete, just a few ingredients. Our upcoming trial is where we can judge more.

I will say this. Crazy sh!t. One ingredient will turn heads.

 

[brundel]

More will be revealed once we get through this next test phase.
We added several new ingredients in this version. The first was just caffeine and 2 other ingredients.
This one has 6 plus caffeine. Caffeine being the stand in as we have plans to use a new stim. (if all goes well) Or we may just use caffeine. The stim isnt really the important portion. I think formulating around a stimulant = failure. You can just take AMp or have a 20cent cup of coffee. Why buy a preworkout supp if its just a stim?
Makes no sense.
The final version should be hands down the best pre ever formulated. Im working very hard on this. Its important to me that it isnt the norm, that it exceeds expectations and causes a huge buzz.
I imagine there will be million post threads about this one. Some real surprises.

 

[kisaj]

1st impressions??

The first run was to try out two of the ingredients in addition to the caffeine. I responded very well personally and provided my feedback to Brundel, so now it is onto the second phase.

 

[Hockeyaus33]

How many stims/focus ingredients in the new pre workout?

Is this a focus pre, energy pre, or performance enhancement pre, or all of the above?

 

[mr.cooper69]

I have no horse in the DIM race, PES or AS won't be using it, but this post is very misleading and I hope none of the readers take it seriously.

Plant-derived 3,3'-Diindolylmethane is a strong androgen antagonist in human prostate cancer cells.
Le HT1, Schaldach CM, Firestone GL, Bjeldanes LF.
Author information
Abstract

3,3'-Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a major digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, a potential anticancer component of cruciferous vegetables. Our results indicate that DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer cells. DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis. These activities were not produced in androgen-independent PC-3 cells. Moreover, DIM inhibited endogenous PSA transcription and reduced intracellular and secreted PSA protein levels induced by DHT in LNCaP cells. Also, DIM inhibited, in a concentration-dependent manner, the DHT-induced expression of a prostate-specific antigen promoter-regulated reporter gene construct in transiently transfected LNCaP cells. Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid. Using fluorescence imaging with green fluorescent protein androgen receptor and Western blot analysis, we demonstrated that DIM inhibited androgen-induced androgen receptor (AR) translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR. Results of structural modeling studies showed that DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.
==============================================================
There is every reason to believe DIM will also block androgens in skeletal muscle.
Similar effects of DIM were observed in PC-3 cells only when these cells were co-transfected with a wild-type androgen receptor expression plasmid This indicates that DIM DOES in fact bind to and block action at other AR sites.
DIM is a STRONG antiandrogen that will prevent test and DHT and other androgens from binding not only in prostate but also in skeletal muscle and other tissue. So say otherwise would indicate that you have some reason to mislead people.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Excellent post. I guess all the pro Bbers are doing it wrong because all that broccoli is going to make you "weaker and smaller." I mean I can only read so much bs before I break my silence

Yes it is true that DIM is an antiandrogenic- however I find no substantiation associating this with becoming 'weaker and smaller'. The antiandrogenic activity has only been established in LnCAP and PC-3 prostatic cancer cell lines which for the vast majority of cases express mutated androgen receptors (T877 mutations)- and this does not even appear to be the primary mechanism for reducing progression of the cancer. So essentially there is not any direct evidence that the AR antagonist activity of DIM can be anyway transposed to the AR isoforms expressed in skeletal muscle or even in normal endocrine tissue.
Tissue disposition studies indicate that DIM distributes primarily to the liver and kidney and the small remaining amount equally to the brain and plasma. If this small amount reaching the brain were to have an appreciable effect on hypothalamic ARs you would expect a rise in LH and FSH as observed with pharmaceutical antiandrogens- but this does not happen. What can be deduced is if that even there were to be any appreciable effects on normal endocrine and muscle AR then there are no measurable manifestations.
Theoretically if it were to be compared to biclutamide- a pharmaceutical antiandrogen for treating prostatic cancer (as has be done in research- due to structural similarity)- then androgen activity at the muscle cells would be unaffected as measured by preservation of bone or muscle weight.

 

[mr.cooper69]

There's lot of hype regarding this product...
I've seen a few people's experiences from using this product which have been good & solid...

But why never any labs? Nobody ever has before and after labs, I've never seen it run after a heavy cycle either..

Not trying to stir up drama or cause conflict, just looking for a link possibly or proof... Does this proof exist?

Labs with SERMs are dicey. We don't know how the compound distributes. Is it a SERM in breast only? CNS? Hematologically? Bone?

The estrogen receptor is all over the place. Distribution matters. Unless someone has done radiolabeled tracer studies on the compound, it's unclear where it will act, what it will do, and how it will affect bloods. So I don't think bloods are very useful for SERMs, more so for AIs

 

[paul56778]

Brundel, On Viron it states to take 1 cap 5/7 days per week, do u suggest using 2 a day in PCT.

 

[brundel]

Brundel, On Viron it states to take 1 cap 5/7 days per week, do u suggest using 2 a day in PCT.

Lots of people take ot 5 on 2 off. Personally I take it every day when I do use it.

 

[EatMoar]

Lots of people take ot 5 on 2 off. Personally I take it every day when I do use it.

Yap everyday here.

 

[brundel]

How many stims/focus ingredients in the new pre workout?

Is this a focus pre, energy pre, or performance enhancement pre, or all of the above?

The primary goal is to increase your overall performance.
There will be stimulant or stimulants.
Will be a focus component.

 

[Volvo140G]

Lots of people take ot 5 on 2 off. Personally I take it every day when I do use it.

Same here, daily.

 

[conkertheking]

I have no horse in the DIM race, PES or AS won't be using it, but this post is very misleading and I hope none of the readers take it seriously.

Care to explain specifically how it's misleading?
I know nothing of DIM myself, haven't used it, but calling out a post as misleading without explaining why is bollocks.

 

[EatMoar]

My gyno has also flared up a bit on pct, gonna up my exem to a full dose again. Damn viron doing its job.

 

[Matthew1237]

I just want to throw it out there that this brundel guy seems like a cool bloke. I like your down to earth style getting in the nitty gritty with us supplement junkies. I've heard you brought out some good products and I could be mislead by thinking you did a lot of it on your own which is cool. You're like eminen - but with supplements. Good on you man. Mirin.

 

[brundel]

My gyno has also flared up a bit on pct, gonna up my exem to a full dose again. Damn viron doing its job.

Ive seen estro sides s few times with guys using viron. Since we would expect slight anti estrogenic effects if anything I believe the rise is cause by a spike in test. Exem will stop it

 

[EatMoar]

Ive seen estro sides s few times with guys using viron. Since we would expect slight anti estrogenic effects if anything I believe the rise is cause by a spike in test. Exem will stop it

I was dosing about 12.5mg a day, going to bump it to 25mg daily for a week to see if that helps.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Care to explain specifically how it's misleading?
I know nothing of DIM myself, haven't used it, but calling out a post as misleading without explaining why is bollocks.

Sure. DIM is an anti-androgen in prostate cancer cell lines in vitro. The skeletal muscle androgen receptor is not only a different configuration (albeit with some homology), but DIM doesn't even distribute to skeletal muscle in appreciable quantities. As such, DIM will have no effect on muscle hypertrophy.

Furion raised another interesting point. DIM elicits no hormonal changes in humans. If it was a potent anti-androgen, you'd expect an increase in T (similar to how saw palmetto increases T).

 

[paul56778]

But which is better 1 tab per day 7 days per week or 2 tabs per day 5 on 2 off.

 

[ELROCK]

But which is better 1 tab per day 7 days per week or 2 tabs per day 5 on 2 off.

That comes down to user preference. You can try both ways and see what works better for you. Now, if your using it in a pct setting then run the 2 caps ED in my opinion.

 

[ucheoma]

I always wonder when I read your posts how you talk in real life.

LOL. I'm no biochemist but he does seem to know his stuff. I wonder if that avatar is real because I always think Spock when I read his posts!

 

[kisaj]

I am testing the new fatburner right now and I really hope Brundel decides to release. Only a couple days in and I am liking it very much. The body warmth is interesting and something I haven't experienced in a supp.

 

[brundel]

I was dosing about 12.5mg a day, going to bump it to 25mg daily for a week to see if that helps.

Your in PCT and at 12.5mg exem your getting gyno?
This doesnt sound right bro. Id be willing to bet the exem is fake.
Viron is good but I HIGHLY doubt it will raise test enough for estrogen to spike high enough that it couldnt be controlled by 12.5mg exem.
THis is why RC products are bad. Well one of the reasons.

 

[brundel]

I just want to throw it out there that this brundel guy seems like a cool bloke. I like your down to earth style getting in the nitty gritty with us supplement junkies. I've heard you brought out some good products and I could be mislead by thinking you did a lot of it on your own which is cool. You're like eminen - but with supplements. Good on you man. Mirin.

Thanks brother.
I do all the research myself yes. All the formulation myself.
I work with a very solid chemist who makes everything possible. Just wait till you see the new stuff coming.
Quite a few surprises.
Potentially 2 new AI products.
A pre workout supp
2 anabolics
And of course our SERM we just released. Its going to be a big year.

 

[EatMoar]

Your in PCT and at 12.5mg exem your getting gyno? This doesnt sound right bro. Id be willing to bet the exem is fake. Viron is good but I HIGHLY doubt it will raise test enough for estrogen to spike high enough that it couldnt be controlled by 12.5mg exem. THis is why RC products are bad. Well one of the reasons.

I figured it was under dosed, because RC blows. It's a small flare up. I have some formeron left over, gonna do 1 pump daily. Please make more on the Ug and send my way :/ Kind of want to buy some rebirth, not sure if my nolva was bunk or not as well. Also if you need any testers for any AI I would like to opt into this raffle lol

 

[paul56778]

Thanks brother.
I do all the research myself yes. All the formulation myself.
I work with a very solid chemist who makes everything possible. Just wait till you see the new stuff coming.
Quite a few surprises.
Potentially 2 new AI products.
A pre workout supp
2 anabolics
And of course our SERM we just released. Its going to be a big year.

2 anabolics, will they rival follidrone or compliment it to stack with.

 

[brundel]

2 anabolics, will they rival follidrone or compliment it to stack with.

One will be a combination product. Including Epicatechin.
One will be a whole new type of product. Sort of similar but different pathways.
In the end they can all be stacked or taken solo with good results.

 

[brundel]

I figured it was under dosed, because RC blows. It's a small flare up. I have some formeron left over, gonna do 1 pump daily. Please make more on the Ug and send my way :/ Kind of want to buy some rebirth, not sure if my nolva was bunk or not as well. Also if you need any testers for any AI I would like to opt into this raffle lol

Im tinkering with the new carrier at the moment. It takes some work when using new formulations and new actives.
Some can be very hard to get into a gel for example.
One of the ingredients is soluble in water another in ethanol so I have to do multi phase compounding for each test. Its a time consuming process.
On Friday I got what looks like a good stable mix. Not super stiff or too watery. Clean and smoothly mixed.
All of the components plus a new light scent and some new penetration enhancers.

Im gonna work this week on finalizing the formula and scaling it up for production. Its one thing to make 100ml...its another to make 8000+ at a time.
ESPECIALLY when things are being as touchy as they are with this mix.
Im close though and once I get everything perfect Ill make about 10-20 bottles.
So...Ill be giving a bunch out for testing.

 

[paul56778]

Anyone have any experience with 6-bromo as an AI.

 

[brundel]

So---we have a new AI coming.
Looking at test results its impressive. Ill have to likely cut the dose in half from the test batches but this is good news actually.
This stuff is exceptionally strong.
We ordered the raws today.

 

[Cjg]

Boom!! There it is.. Pill or transdermal?

 

[brundel]

This is a pill.
This ish is burly. Even stronger than I had anticipated.

 

[Cjg]

Sounds great boss!! Can't wait! How long u guessing before it's available?

 

[yelis300]

Awesome can I buy it now? Lol j/k

 

[brundel]

4-6 weeks.
We need to have a large batch made because this will sell quickly when people see how strong it is.

 

[Cjg]

Lol yea I bet.. Especially since formeron in gone..

 

[kisaj]

I am testing and had to cut the requested test dose in half. It is really strong.

 

[brundel]

We had gyno disappear in 3 testers within a week.
The research is solid.
trials went extremely well.
Labs are superb.

Done and done.

 

[yelis300]

I am testing and had to cut the requested test dose in half. It is really strong.

What happened that you had to cut in half?

 

[Volvo140G]

What happened that you had to cut in half?

So much estro.reduction guys nipples were imploding into their chest and joints became drier than baked Wheaties

 

[brundel]

So much estro.reduction guys nipples were imploding into their chest and joints became drier than baked Wheaties

oddly nobody complained of joint pain.
We did get reports of tanked libido and other low estro symptoms.
Ill likely cut the dose in half and then make it a 4 cap dose. This way guys can take 1 to 4 caps. Because unless your on test or something wet a full dose is too much.

 

[brundel]

Would you trust Rebirth to be ran after a 6 month cycle?
brundel

Yes sir. I would not use a SERM alone though.
And I would not run it for 4 weeks.

Here is what I recommend-

weeks 1-2
HCG 500 IU daily
Rebirth 1 twice per day
Aromasin 12.5mg daily

Weeks 3-6
Rebirth twice per day
asin 12.5 ed or eod
Viron twice per day