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bcaa turn into glucose?

Sebasturea

New member
I use Xtend as before/intra/pwo drink, now I'm in a cutting phase. I really like to do morning cardio on an empty stomach (with some pills in it ja ja). I've been reading that bcaa's are turned into glucose (L-leucine not) so it makes morning cardio not as effective. But I don't want to loose muscle so Its that ok to take one serving (2 scoops) like 30 mins before cardio? or take just some l-leucine and l-glutamin pills with my fat burners?
 
What is the reason for the aminos pre cardio?
 
I dose high bcaa before, during and after my long cardio/gym sessions as a meal replacement then do a shake of eggs and Gatorade after with food.

Its better then nothing and it will still be beneficial. I read somewhere on this but forgot what I concluded about it although if I'm still taking my bcaa like this then I couldn't have been to bad.

BTW I'm more ripped and muscular now then I ever been in my life.
 
I've heard conflicting viewpoints on this, with some claiming that BCAA's precardio takes you out of that fasted stated due to glucose conversion, and others claim it has no such impact.
 
Another interesting tidbit that I've heard, not sure if it's 100% accurate maybe Natty can chime in - is that any product containing 3,3 or 3,5 can prevent catabolism. If that's true maybe taking something like Alpha T2 precardio (I do this) would still prevent muscle loss do to 3,3 without the need for BCAA's, in lieu of the fact that 3,3 and 3,5 are both purported to promote protein synthesis?
 
Ive always done my cardio unfasted... toss back a scoop of whey and go for it.

Now Im interested to try RecoverPro during cardio, never thought of it like that I thought I would just be preserving size. I also thought L-Glutamine was the culprit in glucose conversion... am I mislead?
 
I really doubt a small amount of aminos will break a fasted state, one of the goals for fasting is to activate cAMP and I dont believe BCAAs will inhibit this.

So while BCAAs do hold an energy value (calories) which is similar to protein (4kcal/g) they are metabolized within muscles. This is different then if aminos are being produced by the liver which would make the energy available to the whole body. When you are taking BCAAs they go straight to your muscles and then if your body needs energy it will go through the steps of either getting it from your muscle or from you stored body fat.

Again by fasting you are activating cAMP which will in turn activate enzymes that are responsible for protein synthesis and energy production, this results in the break down of glycogen reserves in the liver and induces lipolysis in fat cells

So BCAAs will go straight to your muscles when consumed and then your body will have a choice of muscle or fat for energy but through fasting you activated cAMP which activated lipolysis for its energy production so most likely the BCAAs will stay in your muscle and your energy will come from the fat stores IMO

So yes it is fine to take in a small amount of BCAAs prior to your cardio.
 
yes glutamine is also turn into glucose. I had great results using Lean Xtreme before morning cardio to control cortisol levels but it can only be used for 30 days then yo have to stop taking it. I was thinking to get 1 scoop of Xtend (1/2 serving) and add some Leucine pills, then after my cardio get some whey with the glutamine.
 
Do yourself a favor and stop overthinking trivial details like this. If you really think that such a minute amount of calories is really having an impact, then you're not doing yourself any favors.

What you're doing is fine and keep at it. BTW, free-form amino acids don't have the same caloric value since they don't have to be cleaved to be broken down.
 
JudoJosh said:
I really doubt a small amount of aminos will break a fasted state, one of the goals for fasting is to activate cAMP and I dont believe BCAAs will inhibit this.

So while BCAAs do hold an energy value (calories) which is similar to protein (4kcal/g) they are metabolized within muscles. This is different then if aminos are being produced by the liver which would make the energy available to the whole body. When you are taking BCAAs they go straight to your muscles and then if your body needs energy it will go through the steps of either getting it from your muscle or from you stored body fat.

Again by fasting you are activating cAMP which will in turn activate enzymes that are responsible for protein synthesis and energy production, this results in the break down of glycogen reserves in the liver and induces lipolysis in fat cells

So BCAAs will go straight to your muscles when consumed and then your body will have a choice of muscle or fat for energy but through fasting you activated cAMP which activated lipolysis for its energy production so most likely the BCAAs will stay in your muscle and your energy will come from the fat stores IMO

So yes it is fine to take in a small amount of BCAAs prior to your cardio.
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:goodpost:
I would agree with this post. I use a full serving of xtend (2 scoops) before and after fasted cardio and it has not effected fat loss one bit it seems. As long as you are not taking in excessive amounts of BCAA, I don't think it would have any effect whatsoever...
 
RickRock13 said:
:goodpost:
I would agree with this post. I use a full serving of xtend (2 scoops) before and after fasted cardio and it has not effected fat loss one bit it seems. As long as you are not taking in excessive amounts of BCAA, I don't think it would have any effect whatsoever...
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Damn Rick! You looking ripper brotha! I remember you avatar from a couple months back and you weren't as defined. I am guessing that IF is working pretty good for you huh? (you ate doing IF correct?)
 
JudoJosh said:
Damn Rick! You looking ripper brotha! I remember you avatar from a couple months back and you weren't as defined. I am guessing that IF is working pretty good for you huh? (you ate doing IF correct?)
Click to expand...

Yes sir!! Thank you very much, and IF has worked wonders for me on getting me down to sub 8%.....and xtend has been taken during the fast the entire time, so more proof that taking it before cardio during a fasted state will not give negative results ;)
 
I tend to overanalyze these kinds of things. I cant imagine taking 2 scoops RecoverPro during fasted cardio is going to have a negative impact. Its almost silly to think otherwise.
 
If your low carb dieting that bcaa's may cause a good spike in insulin. Personally, Im skipping BCAA's when I need to do true fasted training, but Im a keto dieter.
 
southpaw23 said:
Another interesting tidbit that I've heard, not sure if it's 100% accurate maybe Natty can chime in - is that any product containing 3,3 or 3,5 can prevent catabolism. If that's true maybe taking something like Alpha T2 precardio (I do this) would still prevent muscle loss do to 3,3 without the need for BCAA's, in lieu of the fact that 3,3 and 3,5 are both purported to promote protein synthesis?
Click to expand...

Neither will prevent muscle loss practically speaking. You don't go catabolic this quickly and easily.
 
Rodja said:
Do yourself a favor and stop overthinking trivial details like this. If you really think that such a minute amount of calories is really having an impact, then you're not doing yourself any favors.

What you're doing is fine and keep at it. BTW, free-form amino acids don't have the same caloric value since they don't have to be cleaved to be broken down.
Click to expand...

So they have more caloric value then....
 
Im more along the lines of South Beach Diet. Still carb depletion but not truly keto.
 
OrganicShadow said:
Im more along the lines of South Beach Diet. Still carb depletion but not truly keto.
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If your training fasted train fasted, avoid all bcaa's and also avoid fats as it may inhibit fat loss through Acylation stimulating protein.
 
Done. Thanks for that.
 
Rodja said:
No, they have less.
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You just said they don't have to be cleaved by pepsin, trypsin, chymotrypsin, and the brush border enzymes. They also don't have to be secondary active transported with Na+ to enter the enterocyte and later the bloodstream. By bypassing these steps, the only logical conclusion is that the TEF is lowered, so they have more net caloric value.
 
You do realize that a calorie is a measurement of heat, correct? Because free-form amino acids are not peptide-bound, they do not have the same ability to create as much heat as the aforementioned peptide-bound aminos.
 
Rodja said:
You do realize that a calorie is a measurement of heat, correct? Because free-form amino acids are not peptide-bound, they do not have the same ability to create as much heat as the aforementioned peptide-bound aminos.
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And you do realize that the kcals found on labeled foods are for calories that the human body can utilize, correct? Otherwise splenda would have calories.

A peptide bond can release up to 4 kcals per mole if my memory serves me right (lol it better, i just took an exam on this stuff). Either way, breaking a bond requires energy. This is basic gen chem here. By removing this step, we are lowering the TEF.

I honestly see no argument for ffAAs having lower calories. It's completely nonsensical. They either have equal calories (I'm not talking about specific heat capacity, I'm talking about what the body utilizes), or have slightly higher net calories due to the hydrolysis step being bypassed, along with the release of the aforementioned enzymes and secondary active transport mechanisms.
 
If I use bcaa or leucine I do notice a diff. I like erases atoms and bcaa 8,1,1 ratio
 
Stims *
 
mr.cooper69 said:
And you do realize that the kcals found on labeled foods are for calories that the human body can utilize, correct? Otherwise splenda would have calories.

A peptide bond can release up to 4 kcals per mole if my memory serves me right (lol it better, i just took an exam on this stuff). Either way, breaking a bond requires energy. This is basic gen chem here. By removing this step, we are lowering the TEF.

I honestly see no argument for ffAAs having lower calories. It's completely nonsensical. They either have equal calories (I'm not talking about specific heat capacity, I'm talking about what the body utilizes), or have slightly higher net calories due to the hydrolysis step being bypassed, along with the release of the aforementioned enzymes and secondary active transport mechanisms.
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agreed.
the interesting factor is that most labels do not include AA's as protein content when listed on the label.
Also, splenda does have calories, I thought it was 2 calories per packet of splenda, or somewhere around there, maybe 3 calories (well, kcal's if we are getting technical)
this may have been updated, but it always confused me, and if it deals with not being a complete protein, then bread, peanut butter and plenty of others shouldn't have it on their label either (end off topic rant).
 
Bnatural said:
agreed.
the interesting factor is that most labels do not include AA's as protein content when listed on the label.
Also, splenda does have calories, I thought it was 2 calories per packet of splenda, or somewhere around there, maybe 3 calories (well, kcal's if we are getting technical)
this may have been updated, but it always confused me, and if it deals with not being a complete protein, then bread, peanut butter and plenty of others shouldn't have it on their label either (end off topic rant).
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You're right splenda has calories since it uses maltodextrin as a base. Sucralose has minimal calories. If you heat it in a cup of water, its caloric content isn't zero. But obviously the caloric content of food label is not specific heat capacity.

I agree with what you're saying, it's a dumb rule. I guess without any peptide bonds, it lacks even a primary protein structure, so it can't be classified as protein.
 
I can see where someone might initially scratch their head on the subject but Im in agreement with Mr. Cooper here. All things have and are made of energy. We must first use energy to break things down into usable smaller pieces to rebuild into energy storing molecules we can utilize. In the case of BCAA's compared to a standard whey, BCAA's are already in their most basic form and do not need to be broken down therefore no energy is first used to get something back.

Glycolysis is the same concept. Use 2 ATP to break down a glucose molecule and get 4 ATP back. But if it enters the body already as a 3-carbon pyruvate it can skip an energy spending step and go straight to CoEnzymeA and into the mitochondria for processing.
 
So what's the final conclusion. Does taking leucine inhibit benefits
 
mr.cooper69 said:
And you do realize that the kcals found on labeled foods are for calories that the human body can utilize, correct? Otherwise splenda would have calories.

A peptide bond can release up to 4 kcals per mole if my memory serves me right (lol it better, i just took an exam on this stuff). Either way, breaking a bond requires energy. This is basic gen chem here. By removing this step, we are lowering the TEF.

I honestly see no argument for ffAAs having lower calories. It's completely nonsensical. They either have equal calories (I'm not talking about specific heat capacity, I'm talking about what the body utilizes), or have slightly higher net calories due to the hydrolysis step being bypassed, along with the release of the aforementioned enzymes and secondary active transport mechanisms.
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A calorie isn't always a calorie.

What I mean is yes TECHNICALLY BCAAs have calroies but not all calories are the same. 1000 calories from coconut oil isnt the same as 1000 calories from say broccoli. While they both TECHNICALLY have the value of 1000 calories according to a calorimeter they aren't equal in our body. We are not calorie measuring devices, we eat food not calories.

As for saying that they have 4 calories because they are what the body utilizes for energy, again this true to the extent of if all of those calories were being used for energy. The problem is BCAAs are metabolized within the muscles. Yes they hold an energy value but this energy is available directly to the processing muscle tissue, not the whole body. If you want to use this energy then you would have to go through the steps required to get it from the muscle, the BCCAs themseleves aren't necessarily being used for energy in your entire body.
 
JudoJosh said:
A calorie isn't always a calorie.

What I mean is yes TECHNICALLY BCAAs have calroies but not all calories are the same. 1000 calories from coconut oil isnt the same as 1000 calories from say broccoli. While they both TECHNICALLY have the value of 1000 calories according to a calorimeter they aren't equal in our body. We are not calorie measuring devices, we eat food not calories.

As for saying that they have 4 calories because they are what the body utilizes for energy, again this true to the extent of if all of those calories were being used for energy. The problem is BCAAs are metabolized within the muscles. Yes they hold an energy value but this energy is available directly to the processing muscle tissue, not the whole body. If you want to use this energy then you would have to go through the steps required to get it from the muscle, the BCCAs themseleves aren't necessarily being used for energy in your entire body.
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Could you rephrase this? It doesn't really make any sense. What does being metabolized in the muscle have to do with reduced caloric value to a human? Non-ff BCAAs are also taken up by the muscle, so I don't really see where this is going. The step we are cutting out is digestion, not absorption and utilization thereafter.

Btw, I just made that calorimeter point like 2 posts above lol :)
 
Jasen said:
So what's the final conclusion. Does taking leucine inhibit benefits
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lets just work with me on some math. Lets say your max fat loss rate is 2.2lbs a week of true lipolysis. thats 1000g of fat. Losing that much a day is losing 142g/day, averaged out to 6g an hour. If BCAAs blunt fat loss for an hour due to the insulin factor and you lose 6g of fat loss in that period does it really matter?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Could you rephrase this? It doesn't really make any sense. What does being metabolized in the muscle have to do with reduced caloric value to a human? Non-ff BCAAs are also taken up by the muscle, so I don't really see where this is going. The step we are cutting out is digestion, not absorption and utilization thereafter.
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I am not saying there is a reduced caloric value at all. I dont count them as calories when I supplement with BCAAs. In fact in my previous posting I said...

JudoJosh said:
So while BCAAs do hold an energy value (calories) which is similar to protein (4kcal/g)
Click to expand...

I dont fully understand Rodja reasoning for why it would have less calories then protein and am not getting involved in that discussion as I dont really have a side and it is kind of a moot issue to me anyway. What I posted was in reference to your statement that

mr.cooper69 said:
And you do realize that the kcals found on labeled foods are for calories that the human body can utilize, correct?
..... I'm not talking about specific heat capacity, I'm talking about what the body utilizes.....
Click to expand...

Which gave me the impression that for you calories are measured by what the human body can utilize and I was just pointing out the BCCAs aren't utilized the same way when taken in free form.

As for

mr.cooper69 said:
Non-ff BCAAs are also taken up by the muscle,
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Yes BUT AAs are oxidized in the liver and then steps are required to get them to working / repairing muscle tissue. This isnt the case with BCAAs.

Again I am not debating over the caloric value of BCAAs, and I honestly dont care of their technically value (I also see no reason why they aren't 4kcal/g) I am just adding to the discussion that a calorie isn't always just a calorie. Well, that is a little disingenuous of me. Yes a calorie is a calorie when one is speaking in terms of units of energy, however,you cna't just strip all forms of food down to their theoretical caloric value and compare calories or count them all the same way.

I guess I may have misinterpreted your comment about a calorie about heat capacity but about what the body utilizes and took it to me the whole body will utilize 10g BCCAs the same as it would 10g of WMS and I dont believe this to be true. To me 35g BCAAS is not equal to 25g WMS or 25g whey and will not provide you with the same amount of energy.
 
Effects of branched-chain amino acid supplementation on plasma concentrations of free amino acids, insulin, and energy substrates in young men.

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Source

Laboratory of Nutritional Biochemistry, Department of Applied Molecular Biosciences, Graduate School of Bioagricultural Sciences, Nagoya University, Nagoya, Japan.

Abstract

The present study was conducted to examine alterations in the concentrations of plasma free amino acids, glucose, insulin, free fatty acids (FFAs), and urea nitrogen induced by branched-chain amino acid (BCAA) supplementation in young men. Overnight-fasted subjects ingested drinks containing 1 or 5 g of a BCAA mixture (weight ratio of 1 : 2.3 : 1.2 for isoleucine : leucine : valine), and blood was intermittently collected for 3 h after ingestion. Ingestion of the BCAA mixture resulted in significant increases in the plasma concentrations of individual BCAAs, corresponding to the amounts of amino acids ingested. On the other hand, plasma concentrations of methionine and aromatic amino acids tended to decrease in the trial with 5 g BCAAs, suggesting that BCAA ingestion affects the metabolism of these amino acids. The ingestion of BCAAs temporarily increased plasma insulin levels and affected plasma concentrations of FFAs, but had almost no effect on glucose or urea nitrogen.

PMID:
21512300 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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mr.cooper69 said:
Could you rephrase this? It doesn't really make any sense. What does being metabolized in the muscle have to do with reduced caloric value to a human? Non-ff BCAAs are also taken up by the muscle, so I don't really see where this is going. The step we are cutting out is digestion, not absorption and utilization thereafter.

Btw, I just made that calorimeter point like 2 posts above lol :)
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agreed.
also, bcaa's aren't directly absorbed by the muscles, they can be broken down and used by your liver for energy, depends on quite a few factors.
 
JudoJosh said:
I guess I may have misinterpreted your comment about a calorie about heat capacity but about what the body utilizes and took it to me the whole body will utilize 10g BCCAs the same as it would 10g of WMS and I dont believe this to be true. To me 35g BCAAS is not equal to 25g WMS or 25g whey and will not provide you with the same amount of energy.
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who assumes 10g of bcaa's and 10g of wms are utilized in the same fashion?
your body COULD utilize them in the same fashion, but it depends on what is going on in your body (low blood glucose could trigger a similar utilization of these if they were ingested at the time of the low bg levels).
 
Spot on\

Only thing to add is it's been proven that certain amino's have a lipolytic or anti-catabolic effect. Leucine is one and not overly discussed is L-Alanine (not beta-alanine) which preserves Leucine/BCAA breakdownin muscles.

For me - BCAA's + L-Alanine pre/peri/post-morning cardio are a no brainer.

JudoJosh said:
I really doubt a small amount of aminos will break a fasted state, one of the goals for fasting is to activate cAMP and I dont believe BCAAs will inhibit this.

So while BCAAs do hold an energy value (calories) which is similar to protein (4kcal/g) they are metabolized within muscles. This is different then if aminos are being produced by the liver which would make the energy available to the whole body. When you are taking BCAAs they go straight to your muscles and then if your body needs energy it will go through the steps of either getting it from your muscle or from you stored body fat.

Again by fasting you are activating cAMP which will in turn activate enzymes that are responsible for protein synthesis and energy production, this results in the break down of glycogen reserves in the liver and induces lipolysis in fat cells

So BCAAs will go straight to your muscles when consumed and then your body will have a choice of muscle or fat for energy but through fasting you activated cAMP which activated lipolysis for its energy production so most likely the BCAAs will stay in your muscle and your energy will come from the fat stores IMO

So yes it is fine to take in a small amount of BCAAs prior to your cardio.
Click to expand...
 
So after everything Ive read I changed my routine:
Wake up
1/2hr fasted cardio (i have a treadmill in my apt)
2sc whey+2sc RecoverPro in water/crushed ice (takes like raspberry sherbet) and Beverly Int Liver 40
Lift heavy
2sc Recover Pro post + Beverly Int Liver 40
Solid food meal
 
OrganicShadow said:
So after everything Ive read I changed my routine:
Wake up
1/2hr fasted cardio (i have a treadmill in my apt)
2sc whey+2sc RecoverPro in water/crushed ice (takes like raspberry sherbet) and Beverly Int Liver 40
Lift heavy
2sc Recover Pro post + Beverly Int Liver 40
Solid food meal
Click to expand...

Again, don't use the recoverpro with food or protein shakes.
 
Sigh. Clearly part of me doesnt quite get the concept. So is something like XTend or RecoverPro designed to be taken in at one shot or over the duration of the workout?

F*ck this... Im going back to caps lol
 
Many of us do "all of the above" ;)

Pre-w/o: To ensure it is in your system in advance of your training
Peri-w/o: BCAA's are readily available for uptake so peri-w/o seems logical?? (lol)
Post-w/o: Similar to pre-w/o: I like to ensure they are there immediately pwo for obvious reasons

Is this practice overkill? Probably, but instead of fostering one school of thought verses another, I use this shot gun approach to ensure all the bases are covered. I just don't see how this approach can be "bad".

I will add that nothing outside of hormones, has helped me retain muscle mass better than to increase my BCAAs around workout time as deccribed above (when dieting/hypocaloric).

OrganicShadow said:
Sigh. Clearly part of me doesnt quite get the concept. So is something like XTend or RecoverPro designed to be taken in at one shot or over the duration of the workout?

F*ck this... Im going back to caps lol
Click to expand...
 
OrganicShadow said:
Sigh. Clearly part of me doesnt quite get the concept. So is something like XTend or RecoverPro designed to be taken in at one shot or over the duration of the workout?

F*ck this... Im going back to caps lol
Click to expand...

Really you have 2 separate goals there. Drinking it through workout is nice for a steady flow. Outside of the workout window, taking a serving all at once is more beneficial for boosting muscle synthesis. So between meals taking in a serving quick (10 min or less) is more optimal for growth.
 
OrganicShadow said:
Sigh. Clearly part of me doesnt quite get the concept. So is something like XTend or RecoverPro designed to be taken in at one shot or over the duration of the workout?

F*ck this... Im going back to caps lol
Click to expand...

It is designed to be taken in one shot, 2 or more hours postprandially. If you take it with another high protein source, you prevent the refractory response, but it's basically not worth it since MPS will already be maximized shortly thereafter by the shake alone. If you want to take it with food, just add 4g leucine to every shake you consume. If you want to use Layne's protocol, get some 2:1:1 BCAAs and take it 2 or more hours after a meal.
 
EasyEJL said:
Really you have 2 separate goals there. Drinking it through workout is nice for a steady flow. Outside of the workout window, taking a serving all at once is more beneficial for boosting muscle synthesis. So between meals taking in a serving quick (10 min or less) is more optimal for growth.
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Great point.
 
Whacked said:
Many of us do "all of the above" ;)

Pre-w/o: To ensure it is in your system in advance of your training
Peri-w/o: BCAA's are readily available for uptake so peri-w/o seems logical?? (lol)
Post-w/o: Similar to pre-w/o: I like to ensure they are there immediately pwo for obvious reasons

Is this practice overkill? Probably, but instead of fostering one school of thought verses another, I use this shot gun approach to ensure all the bases are covered. I just don't see how this approach can be "bad".

I will add that nothing outside of hormones, has helped me retain muscle mass better than to increase my BCAAs around workout time as deccribed above (when dieting/hypocaloric).
Click to expand...

^^ another great post Whacked! nice! for the 3 times mentioned above are you using just 1 serving of a BCAA supp? so like 7-10g BCAA each time?
 
Well thank you. :)

Typical Day
20 Grams of BCAA (consume pre/peri/post) + 5grams Alanine PRE + 5 grams Leucine POST
Running like mad day
Toss ALL of the above and drink Pre+Peri+Pwo :p
 
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