The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[ScottyDoc]

Wow, how low can we go with this diet...? I dropped more weight on vacation, did a lot of cardio and extended fast then ate like a pig and got leaner... I am now leaner than I have ever been I think which puts me in the neighborhood of 6% and there is no sign I can't go lower as I have not even started to do any kind of prep...

Pictures Old-Fugger... Pictures!!! You show us Young-Bucks what Wisdom & Experience from age can do!

They had these two Bulls sitting up on a hill looking at a bunch of cows and the younger Bull looked to the older Bull and said, "Hey, let's run down there and F@ck a cow!" The older Bull shook his head and said, "No... Let's walk down and F@ck them all!" ~Words of Wisdom~

 

[DreamWeaver]

Pictures Old-Fugger... Pictures!!! You show us Young-Bucks what Wisdom & Experience from age can do!

They had these two Bulls sitting up on a hill looking at a bunch of cows and the younger Bull looked to the older Bull and said, "Hey, let's run down there and F@ck a cow!" The older Bull shook his head and said, "No... Let's walk down and F@ck them all!" ~Words of Wisdom~

Unfortunately I only started thinking like the old bull recently lol ... I should see if I can get the wife to do some pics.. they won't be pretty...

 

[MrKleen73]

Flawed looks like you got great responses so far so I will wait to see if you post any more questions.

Doug, that is fuggin awesome you animal. I agree wanna see pics!

Here is the link to my new log. Come on everyone let's see how much farther I can take this recomp using the Intermittent Fasting and FINAFLEX 1-ANDRO.

Invalid Link Removed

Also for those of you who are curious about IF and a PH/DS, this was a mild progestin run here over the past 4 weeks with these results. Pretty impressive if you ask me.
5/12/11 - 199 9.6% LBM 179.85, Fat 19.15
5/28/11 - 200 8.4% LBM 183.28, Fat 16.72
6/10/11 - 203 8% LBM 186.7, Fat 16.3

 

[mkretz]

Flawed looks like you got great responses so far so I will wait to see if you post any more questions.

Doug, that is fuggin awesome you animal. I agree wanna see pics!

Here is the link to my new log. Come on everyone let's see how much farther I can take this recomp using the Intermittent Fasting and FINAFLEX 1-ANDRO.

Invalid Link Removed

Also for those of you who are curious about IF and a PH/DS, this was a mild progestin run here over the past 4 weeks with these results. Pretty impressive if you ask me.
5/12/11 - 199 9.6% LBM 179.85, Fat 19.15
5/28/11 - 200 8.4% LBM 183.28, Fat 16.72
6/10/11 - 203 8% LBM 186.7, Fat 16.3

DAMN, good work bro!

 

[T50]

Well damn....finally finished reading every page of this thread. Took a while but was well worth it. Think I have my LG plan laid out correctly...let me know what you guys think.

Goal is to cut fat and retain muscle. My weight is about 190 at i'd say around 12%

Overview
 16 Hour Fast = 9pm - 1pm
 8 Hour Feed = 1pm - 9pm
 Workout 3x Week = Mon/Wed/Fri
 Cardio 6x Week = Mon-Sat
 Workout Day Calories = 2800 Calories
 Rest Day Calories = 1800 Calories

WO Days
 1pm - Pre-Workout Meal (20% Daily Calories = 570) = 10g Fat, 60g Carbs, 60g Protein
 3pm - Workout + Cardio
 5pm - Post-Workout Meal (60% Daily Calories = 1680) = 40g Fat, 200g Carbs, 130g Protein
 8pm - Final Meal = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 80g Protein
 Totals = 2830 Calories, 70g Fat, 280g Carbs, 270g Protein
 Notes
o Eat some fruit with Pre- and Post-Workout Meals
o Post-Workout Meal can include carb-dense treats such as low fat ice cream, cereal, etc..

Rest Days
 1pm - Pre-Cardio Meal (35% Daily Calories = 660) = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 100g Protein
 3pm - Cardio
 4pm - Post-Cardio Meal = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 75g Protein
 8pm - Final Meal = 30g Fat, 20g Carbs, 75g Protein
 Totals = 1870 Calories, 70g Fat, 60g Carbs, 250g Protein
 Notes
o Final Meal must contain slow digesting protein such as casein or meat with fiber and fat

 

[MrKleen73]

Well damn....finally finished reading every page of this thread. Took a while but was well worth it. Think I have my LG plan laid out correctly...let me know what you guys think.

Goal is to cut fat and retain muscle. My weight is about 190 at i'd say around 12%

Overview
 16 Hour Fast = 9pm - 1pm
 8 Hour Feed = 1pm - 9pm
 Workout 3x Week = Mon/Wed/Fri
 Cardio 6x Week = Mon-Sat
 Workout Day Calories = 2800 Calories
 Rest Day Calories = 1800 Calories

WO Days
 1pm - Pre-Workout Meal (20% Daily Calories = 570) = 10g Fat, 60g Carbs, 60g Protein
 3pm - Workout + Cardio
 5pm - Post-Workout Meal (60% Daily Calories = 1680) = 40g Fat, 200g Carbs, 130g Protein
 8pm - Final Meal = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 80g Protein
 Totals = 2830 Calories, 70g Fat, 280g Carbs, 270g Protein
 Notes
o Eat some fruit with Pre- and Post-Workout Meals
o Post-Workout Meal can include carb-dense treats such as low fat ice cream, cereal, etc..

Rest Days
 1pm - Pre-Cardio Meal (35% Daily Calories = 660) = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 100g Protein
 3pm - Cardio
 4pm - Post-Cardio Meal = 20g Fat, 20g Carbs, 75g Protein
 8pm - Final Meal = 30g Fat, 20g Carbs, 75g Protein
 Totals = 1870 Calories, 70g Fat, 60g Carbs, 250g Protein
 Notes
o Final Meal must contain slow digesting protein such as casein or meat with fiber and fat

Looks good to me man. Give it two weeks and decide if you want to add or remove calories depending on your specific metabolism but that is a great starting point.

 

[T50]

Looks good to me man. Give it two weeks and decide if you want to add or remove calories depending on your specific metabolism but that is a great starting point.

Thanks man, that's exactly what i'll do. What do you think for a workout routine? I need a new one and was thinking of maybeeeeee DC training? I've done it before with success but idk if it'll be over training on a cut/leangains. Any workout you recommend while on leangains?

 

[Milas]

I think full body type workouts or circuits/supersets would work best if you're going for a cut. I think Kleen and others recommend the Warrior Workout in this case. Kleen has the lowdown though, so I'll stop from stealing his thunder!

 

[mkretz]

anyone ever bulk on this? id have to put down round 3300 cals, jsut seems like most people use this to lean out but i wanna get bigger right now

 

[T50]

anyone ever bulk on this? id have to put down round 3300 cals, jsut seems like most people use this to lean out but i wanna get bigger right now

Would also like to know since I'd like to try this out on cycle during a lean bulk also.

 

[MidwestBeast]

anyone ever bulk on this? id have to put down round 3300 cals, jsut seems like most people use this to lean out but i wanna get bigger right now

Would also like to know since I'd like to try this out on cycle during a lean bulk also.

From what I read on the main site for this a while back, he does it all the time for everything. His reasoning is that he can bulk without putting on fat because he wasn't a fan of the standard bulking/cutting with such drastic changes and the negative sides that accompanied both (e.g. too much fat gain in a bulk, too much muscle lost in a cut).

I'm not sure if anyone on here has used it for this, but the creator uses it as a lifestyle change for all goals.

 

[Red Dog]

From what I read on the main site for this a while back, he does it all the time for everything. His reasoning is that he can bulk without putting on fat because he wasn't a fan of the standard bulking/cutting with such drastic changes and the negative sides that accompanied both (e.g. too much fat gain in a bulk, too much muscle lost in a cut).

I'm not sure if anyone on here has used it for this, but the creator uses it as a lifestyle change for all goals.

Yup, this is correct. LG/IF is an everyday protocol or dietary lifestyle that one can tweak based on specific goals (e.g. fat loss, lean mass gain). The process is always the same (typically the 16/8 fast/feed protocol) but the total calorie content varies.

 

[T50]

So are there any other preset values such as the -20%/+20% from maintenance guidelines? I just thought up these and think they would work.

Recomp: -20%/+20%
Estimated Cutting: -30%/+10% (What I will be trying initially for my cut)
Estimated Lean Bulking: -5%/+30%

 

[DreamWeaver]

So are there any other preset values such as the -20%/+20% from maintenance guidelines? I just thought up these and think they would work.

Recomp: -20%/+20%
Estimated Cutting: -30%/+10% (What I will be trying initially for my cut)
Estimated Lean Bulking: -5%/+30%

I would play with the numbers a bit then create the percentages when you know what works best for you. These percentages are individual and will vary slightly from person to person.

 

[Red Dog]

I would play with the numbers a bit then create the percentages when you know what works best for you. These percentages are individual and will vary slightly from person to person.

Definitely true!

 

[T50]

I would play with the numbers a bit then create the percentages when you know what works best for you. These percentages are individual and will vary slightly from person to person.

For sure, was just thinking about those as starting points.

 

[jontrainer]

I train very early in the morning fasted. I take in about 3 eggs and some fruit afterwards. My feed hours are from 1-9. I am truly not following LG because of my small feeding in the morning post workout. is this ok?

 

[RickRock13]

I would play with the numbers a bit then create the percentages when you know what works best for you. These percentages are individual and will vary slightly from person to person.

Agree 100%. I've had to do a lot of adjusting and will probably have to adjust more to find exactly what works best for me and my current goal

 

[Red Dog]

I train very early in the morning fasted. I take in about 3 eggs and some fruit afterwards. My feed hours are from 1-9. I am truly not following LG because of my small feeding in the morning post workout. is this ok?

I think you might be foregoing some of the physiological benefits of fasting for 16 hours by eating that small meal post-workout. If you could switch that out for some BCAAs and make 1PM your first true meal you would be good to go.

There's definitely nothing "wrong" with what you're doing, but as you said, it's not exactly LG. Everyone is different though -- you might want to give the switch a try and see if it's for you or not!

 

[Milas]

Better without breaking fast, I've tried both now. Just use bcaa/eaa until 1pm.

 

[jontrainer]

I think you might be foregoing some of the physiological benefits of fasting for 16 hours by eating that small meal post-workout. If you could switch that out for some BCAAs and make 1PM your first true meal you would be good to go.

There's definitely nothing "wrong" with what you're doing, but as you said, it's not exactly LG. Everyone is different though -- you might want to give the switch a try and see if it's for you or not!

Thank for responding guys. I will def do this as it would be my preference. Can't wait to do this thing right!!

 

[DreamWeaver]

For sure, was just thinking about those as starting points.

Yah sounds good to me, the finishing points will be more interesting though, let us know what you come up with.... I will be keeping track once I am in lean bulk as well...

 

[Milas]

Thank for responding guys. I will def do this as it would be my preference. Can't wait to do this thing right!!

There is a noticeable difference in results IMO.

I've taken to using HumaPro by ALRI and Gear by NTBM both pre and post workout (1 scoop HumaPro, 4 caps Gear both pre/post) to keep muscle protein synthesis active and stave off catabolism. While for acute anabolism only 24hr protein consumption REALLY matters, I like to think the BCAA/EAA gives me a little bit extra for growth while keeping lipolysis up.

 

[ScottyDoc]

Today's Trivia Question will be posted at 3:00pm Eastern Standard time... So be ready!

Invalid Link Removed

 

[FlawedGrunt]

I decided f it! Starting my first day today. Stopped eating at around 10 last night and will be fasting till approximately 1230 today. Already had roughly ten G's of xtend. Thanks for the answers guys!

Today is a workout day for me, my Cal's are maybe a little low at 2400 but my macros are at 227g protein, 223g Carb, and 55g fat

Not quite sure what I'm going to do yet for my cardio days. But ultimately my goal is cutting

Do I have a good start?

 

[FlawedGrunt]

Surprisingly I'm not dying of hunger. bcaa must be helping

 

[MrKleen73]

How much do you weigh? Body fat % can't really say anything without knowing those.

 

[FlawedGrunt]

205 and guessing 16-17%

 

[Milas]

I decided f it! Starting my first day today. Stopped eating at around 10 last night and will be fasting till approximately 1230 today. Already had roughly ten G's of xtend. Thanks for the answers guys!

Today is a workout day for me, my Cal's are maybe a little low at 2400 but my macros are at 227g protein, 223g Carb, and 55g fat

Not quite sure what I'm going to do yet for my cardio days. But ultimately my goal is cutting

Do I have a good start?

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

 

[ScottyDoc]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I am still way new at this, but based on what I have been reading and what I see others doing with excellent results, this looks spot on to me, Kleen seems to be our resident Lean Gains & Intermiten Fasting Guru, in for what he has to say!

 

[RickRock13]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.

 

[MrKleen73]

I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.

 

[kyoryoko]

When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
FYI, following the UD2.
He said he likes the UD2, but this is really just the first week to him so it could be the honey moon phase...

Client currently 190lbs 13%

 

[Red Dog]

When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
FYI, following the UD2. Client currently 190lbs 13%

PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.

 

[FlawedGrunt]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I am still way new at this, but based on what I have been reading and what I see others doing with excellent results, this looks spot on to me, Kleen seems to be our resident Lean Gains & Intermiten Fasting Guru, in for what he has to say!

I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.

I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.

Thanks for all the responses guys! Ok so I dropped my carbs a bit at the end of the day ending at 2424 calories, 209g carbs, 245g protein, and 57g fat. If im understand this correctly MrKleen you are saying I should take my weight (205 lbs) and multiple. So I will just assume I sway with weight easy enough so....

205 x 13 = 2665
205 x 14 = 2870

2665 (+/- 20%) = 2132 - 3198
2870 (+/- 20%) = 2296 - 3444

At this point my ultimate goal is more cutting than recomp. I would like to be as lean as possible while retaining muscle in four weeks when my gf and I go on a short camping trip with a bunch of friends. After that if I am lean as I am comfortable with I will switch to recomp or ever lean gain bulk.

Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?


Ps.... Ill layout what todays food was quick:

Fast Break:
Apple
Multigrain tortilla
4 oz chicken
1/2 cup brown rice
1/4 cup black beans
4 oz ***e 0% fat greek yogurt
1 Scoop Dymatize protein

2nd meal:
2 oz summer sausage
1 can (4 oz) Albacore tuna
1 Whole wheat sub roll
1 slick pepperjack cheese
1 Scoop Dymatize protein

Last meal: (Post workout)
4 oz chicken breast
1 cup vegetable stir fry
1/2 cup cottage cheese
1/2 cup oats
1 1/2 cup skim milk
24 whole almonds
2 Scoops Dymatize protein

Phew that seemed like a lot and I literally had to force that last bit of food down... actually I wasnt even hungry when my girlfriend told me she made dinner... poor her going out of her way to be nice for me and I wasnt even wanting to eat!

 

[Milas]

Natty PB and peanuts, they add plenty of calories...

 

[kyoryoko]

PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.

Sounds good, I'll try have him do that. 10g BCAAs from like Xtends (plus some extra)or Modern BCAA would be best I'd think. If he can make it through the next couple days and complete the week I will see if I should make some changes to the protein intake. He's using a lot of shakes though to cram it in the 8hrs. I usually don't like liquid food but to get 300-380g protein in 8hrs I may have to let it go for now. lol.

Thanks again!!

 

[FlawedGrunt]

Yeah I usually have a couple scoops of Natty PB in my shake (the one i had at the end of the day along with my chicken stir fry) but I was already stuffed and didnt know how much more I could take haha

So given the fact im purely trying to cut. Should I still try to be over maintenance on my lifting days?

 

[Milas]

You can probably just do maintenance on working days and be cool if you're just cutting. If you start losing strength consistently, increase calories.

 

[FlawedGrunt]

Thanks Milas! Ill keep pressing forward on this. I was pretty surprised on both counts that i made it easily to 1230 with no food in me and also that I felt pretty damn strong tonight when I lifting chest, bis, and legs... but I was sweatin like a biiiiiitttttccccchhhhh

If Kleen, Red Dog, Scotty, or RickRock have any other suggestions please chime in!

PS - I have had a really hard time sticking to a diet and this is probably the closest ive ever been to being around maintenance calories with for the most part wholesome food. So before I go changing shxt drastically I definitely want to see how this affects me and establish routine and discipline and then carry on from there. I definitely consider all criticism and suggestions and appreciate the help!

 

[Milas]

Add some gh, GHRP, and GHRH during your fast

 

[Red Dog]

Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?

Pretty solid plan man! If you're making progress with moderate CHO then go ahead and keep them in. You can definitely push the CHO in the post-workout window on weight training days -- on the cardio/rest days, you could still enjoy a significant amount especially if you position them after your cardio is completed.

And with protein as plentiful as you have it I think you would be fine in the 2100 calorie range on cardio days -- I know some of the guys on here occasionally drop the calories super low on those days and are seeing solid results!

 

[FlawedGrunt]

Pretty solid plan man! If you're making progress with moderate CHO then go ahead and keep them in. You can definitely push the CHO in the post-workout window on weight training days -- on the cardio/rest days, you could still enjoy a significant amount especially if you position them after your cardio is completed.

And with protein as plentiful as you have it I think you would be fine in the 2100 calorie range on cardio days -- I know some of the guys on here occasionally drop the calories super low on those days and are seeing solid results!

Awesome. Sounds like a plan. Today is a cardio day looking like 2171 Cals, 172g carbs, 231g protein, and 63g fat. So I guess I am gonna roll with this and see how it pans out! Ill be back for updates! May have to just start a damn log! haha

 

[soontobbeast]

has anyone thought about using IF with UD 2.0?

though, it won't be 'leangains', it might enhance UD 2.0, which by itself is already an awesome diet/workout routine.

 

[MrKleen73]

Thanks for all the responses guys! Ok so I dropped my carbs a bit at the end of the day ending at 2424 calories, 209g carbs, 245g protein, and 57g fat. If im understand this correctly MrKleen you are saying I should take my weight (205 lbs) and multiple. So I will just assume I sway with weight easy enough so....

205 x 13 = 2665
205 x 14 = 2870

2665 (+/- 20%) = 2132 - 3198
2870 (+/- 20%) = 2296 - 3444

At this point my ultimate goal is more cutting than recomp. I would like to be as lean as possible while retaining muscle in four weeks when my gf and I go on a short camping trip with a bunch of friends. After that if I am lean as I am comfortable with I will switch to recomp or ever lean gain bulk.

Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?

The 13 and fourteen were two seperate calculations not meant to be used as part of a total formula. Either figure out the -20%/+20% off of the 13, or the 14. However for a cut you could either try to figure out new percentages like maybe -30 to 40% on the Burn day, or simply multiply body weight by 12 and use those as your numbers instead. I tend to use about a 12 for my cutting in general, if I were to average my days out for the week I get in about 2400 cals per day. Which is pretty much on par with what I would be eating daily if doing a traditional cut.

Thanks Milas! Ill keep pressing forward on this. I was pretty surprised on both counts that i made it easily to 1230 with no food in me and also that I felt pretty damn strong tonight when I lifting chest, bis, and legs... but I was sweatin like a biiiiiitttttccccchhhhh

If Kleen, Red Dog, Scotty, or RickRock have any other suggestions please chime in!

PS - I have had a really hard time sticking to a diet and this is probably the closest ive ever been to being around maintenance calories with for the most part wholesome food. So before I go changing shxt drastically I definitely want to see how this affects me and establish routine and discipline and then carry on from there. I definitely consider all criticism and suggestions and appreciate the help!

This diet will make thing easier to stick to. However once you get used to eating big meals it becomes easy to go over your caloric intake so keep an eye on this if you are not counting every calorie you need to be aware that it will be easier and easier to consume more and more at one meal. Too keep cals where they need to be you have to keep your eye on it even with all the freedoms this diet can allow. If you are enjoying around 200 then keep having 200-250 on workout days and say around 100-150 on non workout days or something.

 

[Folkmetalhead]

I have heard people using IF methods during first 3 days of UD2 7 day cycle, dunno about +kcal/maintance days, but during -kcal days it sounds like good idea to me atleast..

So personally i have been bulking little more than 5 weeks with IF style most of time (like 5days IF/2days off) pretty clean most of time. So during this 5 week my weight jumped 3kg upwards, my deadlift RM1 jumped 20kg (170kg -> 190kg, been missing 200kg for 2 weeks now while i rep 180kg easily for 4), squat from 6x130 to 4x140 (And i am doing 2x6 130kg before that set atm when before 6x130kg was my "best set) and decline bench from 6x80kg to 6x90kg (easy, but due to my shoulder injury i dont dare to risk anything anymore, atleast benching..).

So anyways here is side before (No bloat): Invalid Link Removed

And side after little bloat going on.. Invalid Link Removed

So i guess im going to keep doing what i have been or.. ?

Ps. If you got any tips for stubborn arms i would gladly hear em, my arms have been about 38cm like for year now, even my curl and tri ext strenght have gone up a lot.. :yuck:

 

[MrKleen73]

Man you look great to me. Looks almost more like a recomp than a bulk. You are definitely leaner in the second pics. As far as arms some peoples arms need more recovery than others. If you have been pounding on them for a year and they haven't been growing too much take about 2 months where you don't train them too much and see if there is any difference. A lot of people will add size to their arms just from doing all the compound movements. Some poeple addingin extra arm work results in overtraining the arms. So they don't really grow. Try a few months of just pressing and pulling movements, and maybe just 1 hard work set for biceps and triceps. Like say do your back all the way through then hit one really hard set of Olympic Bar curls and be done then do the same for triceps, do shoulders and bench then just do one hard set of dips, close grip bench or an overhead variety of triceps extension.

 

[ScottyDoc]

Man you look great to me. Looks almost more like a recomp than a bulk. You are definitely leaner in the second pics. As far as arms some peoples arms need more recovery than others. If you have been pounding on them for a year and they haven't been growing too much take about 2 months where you don't train them too much and see if there is any difference. A lot of people will add size to their arms just from doing all the compound movements. Some poeple addingin extra arm work results in overtraining the arms. So they don't really grow. Try a few months of just pressing and pulling movements, and maybe just 1 hard work set for biceps and triceps. Like say do your back all the way through then hit one really hard set of Olympic Bar curls and be done then do the same for triceps, do shoulders and bench then just do one hard set of dips, close grip bench or an overhead variety of triceps extension.

Listen to the Man, that some Kleen advice there! I too have noticed that if I do too much on my arm days they don't grow as much as when I do just a few sets to kill them after training a different muscle in which they are highly used. Like triceps after chest and biceps after back! Another thing I will do to shake things up is do a push and a pull in one day... One day do Chest & Biceps the 2-3 days later do Back & Triceps. Whenever I change up my routine like that I try to stick with it for 6-8wks and then switch again. In addition to always trying to do different exercises for the muscles, it is another way to keep the body in constant shock!

 

[EasyEJL]

i've decided to give up on leangains for right now. What i've noticed is although bodycomp changes were coming along nicely, my mental function between workout time (7am) and fast break (1pm) sucked. My work has been extra heavy and I have some rough deadlines to meet and my brain just isn't working up to snuff during that extended morning fast. I'll go back to IF once this current rash of deadlines passes though, but for now I can't afford to only get 2-3 hours of real work accomplished during that first 5 hours of the work day before I eat.

Sucks really

 

[Milas]

i've decided to give up on leangains for right now. What i've noticed is although bodycomp changes were coming along nicely, my mental function between workout time (7am) and fast break (1pm) sucked. My work has been extra heavy and I have some rough deadlines to meet and my brain just isn't working up to snuff during that extended morning fast. I'll go back to IF once this current rash of deadlines passes though, but for now I can't afford to only get 2-3 hours of real work accomplished during that first 5 hours of the work day before I eat.

Sucks really

Then the Lord made Focus XT, and it was good...