SonicSWOLE
Member
I'd like a sample.....so I can stack it with Arginine.
Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?
- Thread starter iForce
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WhatsaRoid?
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poison
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Of course superdrol is a bad analogy, but you get my point. You're taking something known to require a certain dosing protocol, using it under completely different protocol, then saying it doesn't work.
It's funny, but most here probably weren't lifting when MRI NO2 came out. Simple timed release Aakg, 3gr twice a day. It's known to provide pumps. Nearly every pre-workout states to use it on off days for maximum results. If people weren't getting results, MRI wouldn't be a ginormous, successful company. But it did catch on, because everyone walked around jacked 24/7, it spread to nearly every other pre-workout. It's cheap and provides a solid, potent result (how worthwhile that result is is another story). It simply wouldn't be around 8-10 years later if it didn't elicit the intended effect. There are good studies on healthy trained individuals backing up the use of arginine for NO as well as insulin and GH. Add in the safety factor and it's a no brainer (go ahead, ingest 10gr).
Conversely, agmantine has been out for a number of years, and has not caught on at all. It simply doesn't have a noticable effect on most people. Add in the interesting effects on the brain, and it's something that needs to be carefully weighed (much like melatonin use, it may not be 100% negative side effect free, I'm not sold either way).
That's why people and companies use arginine. ^
Again, I'm not bashing iForce. I encouraged someone in this thread to try it. IForce feel agmantine is a better choice, and I hope a good subset of this board will at least give it a try, because I can guarantee its effectiveness DESPITE the addition of agmantine :lol: . Potent looking stuff. But I also think i{orce should reasses their opinions on arginine.
hardknock
Well-known member
You're right, i'll agree 100%; however, we design for human consumption, so that is where the burden is. It doesn't do us any good if clomid has no effect on a cat's vision, when in humans we know it can have altering effects. That's a very loose example, but you understand where i'm going with it.
I look at it as almost imperative that things are judged based on human reaction due to the fact that we CANNOT control what a human does during testing. I think that's the whole point, honestly.
I need to know if a substance will work and how it will react when it is introduced in varying environments (i.e. human bodies with alcohol, poor dieting, poor sex drive, great diet, narcotics, non exerciser, exerciser, power lifter, heavy stress, stress free, etc)
But yeah, to your point, I can still agree on that.
thebigt
Legend
Of course superdrol is a bad analogy, but you get my point. You're taking something known to require a certain dosing protocol, using it under completely different protocol, then saying it doesn't work.
It's funny, but most here probably weren't lifting when MRI NO2 came out. Simple timed release Aakg, 3gr twice a day. It's known to provide pumps. Nearly every pre-workout states to use it on off days for maximum results. If people weren't getting results, MRI wouldn't be a ginormous, successful company. But it did catch on, because everyone walked around jacked 24/7, it spread to nearly every other pre-workout. It's cheap and provides a solid, potent result (how worthwhile that result is is another story). It simply wouldn't be around 8-10 years later if it didn't elicit the intended effect. There are good studies on healthy trained individuals backing up the use of arginine for NO as well as insulin and GH. Add in the safety factor and it's a no brainer (go ahead, ingest 10gr).
Conversely, agmantine has been out for a number of years, and has not caught on at all. It simply doesn't have a noticable effect on most people. Add in the interesting effects on the brain, and it's something that needs to be carefully weighed (much like melatonin use, it may not be 100% negative side effect free, I'm not sold either way).
That's why people and companies use arginine. ^
Again, I'm not bashing iForce. I encouraged someone in this thread to try it. IForce feel agmantine is a better choice, and I hope a good subset of this board will at least give it a try, because I can guarantee its effectiveness DESPITE the addition of agmantine :lol: . Potent looking stuff. But I also think i{orce should reasses their opinions on arginine.
trib is another one that falls into the picked on category. for years all these 'smart' science guys have been saying it is useless-to hell with the know it all's, i keep on buying it. the same way i will keep on buying and using arginine products.
marco wolf
Member
I don't think "science" is saying that trib is useless, it's just not anabolic. It has been shown to raise libido but not to increase test or build muscle.
Except for alatus, supposedly.
thebigt
Legend
there was a thread like this one awhile back about trib and many science guys bashed it as useless mainly because they showed studies showing it didn't raise test. much the same as this thread was designed to bash arginine with studies of it not increasing NO. but in the trib thread just as in this thread everyday joe's chimed in about how much benefit they got from it-eventually enough people chimed in about liking the benefits of trib that 'study worshipers' were finally silenced.
mattikus
Well-known member
I skipped a few pages in this thread, but I wanted to throw in my opinion on agmatine. I have taken the bulk powder form and noticed excellent pumps. 1.5 grams before a workout will do wonders.
On the other hand, I do agree that arginine has some merit as well. I have tried it standalone, in base form, at doses from 2-7 grams preworkout. Try 7 grams preworkout and tell me you are not pumped to hell after two sets of curls. People would see me after that and say "holy crap! what are you taking?"
Like Resolve said, the enhanced 'pump' from arginine may not be understood...
And also, I believe trib probably enhances libido and may even raise test through dhea conversion, but lets not get too sidetracked..
On the other hand, I do agree that arginine has some merit as well. I have tried it standalone, in base form, at doses from 2-7 grams preworkout. Try 7 grams preworkout and tell me you are not pumped to hell after two sets of curls. People would see me after that and say "holy crap! what are you taking?"
Like Resolve said, the enhanced 'pump' from arginine may not be understood...
And also, I believe trib probably enhances libido and may even raise test through dhea conversion, but lets not get too sidetracked..
marco wolf
Member
Then those "science guys" are wrong because having a healthy libido is anything but useless. lol
jherman08
Well-known member
figures "science guys" would say that..
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Royd The Noyd
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Dadams posted this abstract earlier but since people are so visual I grabbed a couple things from it...
In the discussion they do state the results may be due to increased NO. But it's not definitive obviously.
GNC funded...
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In the discussion they do state the results may be due to increased NO. But it's not definitive obviously.
GNC funded...
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Guest
Guest
I paid my taxes with arginine this year...Nice exchange rate, would you like that in Euros nah brah arginine.
thebigt
Legend
in 5 years you can pay in amero's.
SonicSWOLE
Member
Research Article
L-Arginine, nitric oxide, and intestinal secretion: studies in rat jejunum in vivo.
F H Mourad, L J O'Donnell, E A Andre, C P Bearcroft, R A Owen, M L Clark, M J Farthing
+ Author Affiliations
Digestive Diseases Research Centre, Medical College of St Bartholomew's Hospital, London.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: L-Arginine has been shown to induce fluid secretion in human jejunum. Nitric oxide, a derivative of L-arginine is thought to have an important role as an intestinal secretagogue. AIM: To determine the effect of L-arginine and the nitric oxide synthase inhibitor, nitro L-arginine methyl ester (L-NAME), on fluid and electrolyte movement in rat jejunum. METHODS: A 25 cm segment of rat jejunum was perfused in situ with iso-osmotic solutions containing either (1) saline, (2) D-arginine 20, (3) L-arginine 20, (4) L-NAME 0.1, 1, or 20 mmol/l, or (5) a combination of L-arginine 20 and L-NAME 0.1, 1, or 20 mmol/l. In further groups the effect of a subcutaneous injection of L-NAME 100 mg/kg was examined in rats pretreated with either D-or L-arginine 500 mg/kg. RESULTS: L-Arginine, unlike D-arginine, induced fluid secretion despite being better absorbed (mean -7.3 v 17.0 microliters/min/g; p < 0.01). L-NAME at 0.1 mmol/l had no effect on basal fluid movement but reversed L-arginine induced secretion (7.8; p < 0.05). L-NAME at 1 and 20 mmol/l induced fluid secretion (-15.4 and -28.4, respectively), which was enhanced by the addition of L-arginine (-30.0 and -41.0, respectively; both p < 0.05). A subcutaneous injection of L-NAME resulted in marked fluid secretion (-39.9) and histological evidence of intestinal ischaemia. These changes were attenuated or reversed by pretreatment with subcutaneous L- but not D-arginine. CONCLUSIONS: L-arginine induces intestinal fluid secretion through production of nitric oxide. There is a delicate balance between the effect of nitric oxide as a secretagogue and its effect on maintaining blood flow and thus preventing intestinal ischaemia.
L-Arginine, nitric oxide, and intestinal secretion: studies in rat jejunum in vivo.
F H Mourad, L J O'Donnell, E A Andre, C P Bearcroft, R A Owen, M L Clark, M J Farthing
+ Author Affiliations
Digestive Diseases Research Centre, Medical College of St Bartholomew's Hospital, London.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: L-Arginine has been shown to induce fluid secretion in human jejunum. Nitric oxide, a derivative of L-arginine is thought to have an important role as an intestinal secretagogue. AIM: To determine the effect of L-arginine and the nitric oxide synthase inhibitor, nitro L-arginine methyl ester (L-NAME), on fluid and electrolyte movement in rat jejunum. METHODS: A 25 cm segment of rat jejunum was perfused in situ with iso-osmotic solutions containing either (1) saline, (2) D-arginine 20, (3) L-arginine 20, (4) L-NAME 0.1, 1, or 20 mmol/l, or (5) a combination of L-arginine 20 and L-NAME 0.1, 1, or 20 mmol/l. In further groups the effect of a subcutaneous injection of L-NAME 100 mg/kg was examined in rats pretreated with either D-or L-arginine 500 mg/kg. RESULTS: L-Arginine, unlike D-arginine, induced fluid secretion despite being better absorbed (mean -7.3 v 17.0 microliters/min/g; p < 0.01). L-NAME at 0.1 mmol/l had no effect on basal fluid movement but reversed L-arginine induced secretion (7.8; p < 0.05). L-NAME at 1 and 20 mmol/l induced fluid secretion (-15.4 and -28.4, respectively), which was enhanced by the addition of L-arginine (-30.0 and -41.0, respectively; both p < 0.05). A subcutaneous injection of L-NAME resulted in marked fluid secretion (-39.9) and histological evidence of intestinal ischaemia. These changes were attenuated or reversed by pretreatment with subcutaneous L- but not D-arginine. CONCLUSIONS: L-arginine induces intestinal fluid secretion through production of nitric oxide. There is a delicate balance between the effect of nitric oxide as a secretagogue and its effect on maintaining blood flow and thus preventing intestinal ischaemia.
SonicSWOLE
Member
There are a whole lot more like this.......
There are so many studies out there on Arginine as a precursor to NO, it is rediculous to sthink otherwise. It is like saying that Oxygen isn't a waste of plants photosynthesis. There are other benefits to Arginine aside from it's well documented (and understood by the medical community) NO relationship, such as being a valuable anabolic via the mTOR pathway.
So again, and not joking........ I would stack with L-Arginine.
There are so many studies out there on Arginine as a precursor to NO, it is rediculous to sthink otherwise. It is like saying that Oxygen isn't a waste of plants photosynthesis. There are other benefits to Arginine aside from it's well documented (and understood by the medical community) NO relationship, such as being a valuable anabolic via the mTOR pathway.
So again, and not joking........ I would stack with L-Arginine.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
Arg doesn't directly regulate or activate NOS, but is the primary substrate of NOS.
SonicSWOLE
Member
Read this....all of this. You will understand why Arginine should be the FOUNDATION of anything to do with NO.
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thebigt
Legend
plus the fact that arginine is very cheap. dollar for dollar arginine is still very worthwhile.
Jurassic
Member
So what would an increased muscle relaxation rate do exactly? Faster atp recovery?
Irish Cannon
Legend
I haven't read this entire thread, but to answer the OP question...
It's because this isn't BB.com, and we don't take a single scientific study to be completely conclusive, not to mention arginine is not arginine. There are all different forms. There only studies I've seen regarding arginine's ineffectiveness at raising NO is l-arginine. What about arginine nitrate?
Unlike the BB.com forums, the people here aren't complete and utter fck-tards.
It's because this isn't BB.com, and we don't take a single scientific study to be completely conclusive, not to mention arginine is not arginine. There are all different forms. There only studies I've seen regarding arginine's ineffectiveness at raising NO is l-arginine. What about arginine nitrate?
Unlike the BB.com forums, the people here aren't complete and utter fck-tards.
MAxximal
Well-known member
or Maybe L-Arginine Taurinate.
thebigt
Legend
:goodpost:
poison
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It allows for faster and harder contraction, ie more power.
iForce Dave
Member
What evidence is there that a mineral carrier (AKG, Malate, etc) would change the effects?
Arginine nitrates effects would come from the nitrate most likely...
Jurassic
Member
I've read that taking arginine pre-workout actually suppresses growth hormone release. I've also read that free-form L-arginine doesn't pass the blood-brain barrier, but other forms such as arginine-pyroglutamate do. I haven't heard of nitrates helping with NO levels, I think i'm going to try a supplement with nitrates now. I took 4.5grams of GPLC a day (and 4.5g pre-workout) for 15 days and noticed an increased pump (although short lived) and no significant gains in strength or recovery.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
iForce Dave
Member
Um, neither AKG nor Malate are minerals. They're both organic moieties.
i shouldve said salts, pardon me
iForce Dave
Member
pyroglutamate is one that I have seen good results from, i dont remember where i found the studies, nor do i have the time to dig them up right now lol. But the effects had nothing to do with nitric oxide.
thebigt
Legend
there must be one hell of a placebo effect with arginine-there are tons of great reviews on pre-workout supps containing arginine. so now those reviews mean nothing based on studies that someone like resolve [who works in a lab]admits are very difficult to get accurate results from with too many variables to count. real world results wins every time for me.
go to the review section and look at some logs[reviews] of products containing arginine and tell me it doesn't work-there is all the STUDY i need.
go to the review section and look at some logs[reviews] of products containing arginine and tell me it doesn't work-there is all the STUDY i need.
iForce Dave
Member
you are 100% correct, but those reviews on pump/energy have likely ZERO to do with arginine. Its the stimulants/carbs/creatine/BA that are giving the effects. Even without any supporting amino acids, a surge of adrenaline from high stimulants can increase NO synthase expression. Thats a fact. So the results are from the product, not the arginine therein
poison
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I thought adrenaline constricts, pushing blood away from extremities towards the vitals. This would be the opposite of increasing NO.
I've taken products with creatine solo, with creatine and beta alanine, independent and in tandem with stims, and adding arginine makes all the difference in the world.
I'm not sure how posting short term (3 days of supplementation of arginine) studies, and saying it isn't the arginine, negates the long term studies and feedback of thousands of consumers who say the opposite.
I've taken products with creatine solo, with creatine and beta alanine, independent and in tandem with stims, and adding arginine makes all the difference in the world.
I'm not sure how posting short term (3 days of supplementation of arginine) studies, and saying it isn't the arginine, negates the long term studies and feedback of thousands of consumers who say the opposite.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I would disagree. I have taken straight AAKG for years alone and experienced the effects I would expect.
thebigt
Legend
it is impossible to say that arginine does not play a role in their effectiveness. too many people in this thread have reported good results from arginine for you to dismiss it's effects.
poison
Board Sponsor
Epinephrine, widely called adrenaline, is a hormone and[ 1] neurotransmitter.[ 1] When produced in the body it increases heart rate, contracts blood vessels and dilates air passages and participates in the fight- or-flight response of the sympathetic nervous[ 2] system.[ 2]
I'm not sure where you come up with your info, but i'd love to see where adrenaline dump causes an increase in NO.
I'm not sure where you come up with your info, but i'd love to see where adrenaline dump causes an increase in NO.
iForce
Member
How many people reported amazing results from vanadyl sulfate before everyone finally realized it was toxic/innefective?
How many did the same with Chrysin?
Creatine ethyl ester?
Tribulus terrestris?
thebigt
Legend
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
VS has not been shown to be ineffective, in fact recent research only solidifies the previous findings.
Where are you getting your stuff?
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Okay... maybe I should just exit this thread. Reading some of this is giving me a headache because the information and back tracking is out of hand.
Irish Cannon
Legend
I fckin' love VS.
Trib is awesome for a boost in libido.
CEE doesn't do NOTHING, just not as good as it was once thought.
Chrysin is pretty junky, but still helps a little.
...You'll find it a tough battle here, my man. We actually do our research properly.
Trib is awesome for a boost in libido.
CEE doesn't do NOTHING, just not as good as it was once thought.
Chrysin is pretty junky, but still helps a little.
...You'll find it a tough battle here, my man. We actually do our research properly.
SonicSWOLE
Member
WhatsaRoid?
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Lmfao
iForce
Member
ill leave this one up to you guys...
please post a peer reviewed study that shows tribulus can increase testosterone levels in a healthy adult male.
thebigt
Legend
geez, you have got to be kidding. f'- a bunch of studies-I AM THE DAMNED STUDY.
LIFE IS MORE THAN STUDIES!!!
SonicSWOLE
Member
Oh wait....you were proved wrong about Arginine and now it's time to go after something else. I just decided to NEVER purchase ANYTHING iForce again, this is just my personal choice. If you are a rep..... you sure represented iForce well. If you are more than a rep.......you should probably hire a rep. Cheers.
iForce
Member
Interesting this coming from a company representative.
Where was I proven wrong about Arginine? I showed multiple studies showing it CANNOT raise NO in a healthy male, especially when taken infrequently like most pre-wo's are.
Again, I am not sure I understand the animosity. I never came in here promoting i-Force or any of our products, I was merely looking for a discussion on the ingredient Arginine. I dont get why this has to be a personal battle when in reality, I am more than open to saying " i was wrong" but I must be presented with sufficient evidence to do so.
The other ingredients I just spoke about, if you can find me studies proving me wrong, please do so...I will again admit that I wasn't correct.
why so angry?
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