Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?

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well I find GLYCOCARN-GPLC from PP to do what l-arg is supossed to.
GLYCOCARN-GPLC and some creapure or andralic state gos well together preWO.
nice pumps and helps workouts.
 
RAHHH said:
well I find GLYCOCARN-GPLC from PP to do what l-arg is supossed to.
GLYCOCARN-GPLC and some creapure or andralic state gos well together preWO.
nice pumps and helps workouts.
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gplc can augment endothelial nitrix oxide synthase enzyme, which is a limiting step in NO production however, usually people take L-aginine in base or some modified salt or ester thinking they are increasing their bodies stores of Arginine, but that is not the case.

I think its best to explain it this way:

Citrulline is to Arginine, as Beta Alanine is to Carnosine....

CM = MORE ARGININE STORES BA = MORE CARNOSINE STORES

but trying to take arginine or carnosine doesnt do sh*t on its own.
 
iForce said:
Greater pumps, vascularity, strength, and endurance benefits can be found from ingredients that actally raise NO though...


Agmatine sulfate
creatine nitrate
GPLC


^^^^ those actually have merit
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That being said, come out with a cost effective product that contains all or at least 2 of those and then you will have something. GPLC and Agmatine are expensive, arginine is dirt cheap; I think that explains why it is used.

Oh, and that Anadraulic Pump I take from LG that so happens to give me the best pump out of EVERYTHING I have ever taken, hands down, has arginine in it, so I should chalk that up to placebo effect? I have taken products with GPLC and Agmatine in them for extended periods, and at high doses, neither gave me crazy pumps.

My argument is this, if you are going to bring this up, present a solution to the problem as opposed to a blanket statement that we are a bunch of bandwagon riders. I am happy we have iForce here, I think you have some interesting products to bring to AM, don't tarnish that image by starting threads like this. I don't have to time to read through three pages and 90 posts, if this has already been covered, disregard above statements, if not, come up with a solution or a product that addresses the concern.
 
IFORCE hasnt bashed any company or product one time, they were just asking why so many products still contain it..
 
jherman08 said:
IFORCE hasnt bashed any company or product one time, they were just asking why so many products still contain it..
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It's a pointless question to ask to consumers; that is one to be directed at the producers. The WHOLE point of my statement above is to encourage iForce to present their product that addresses the obvious void that is there since Arginine is supposedly ineffective; otherwise why even bring it up. No one is being educated here, there are just a bunch of statements being made and no studies being posted that prove these points unless I missed them.
 
oufinny said:
No one is being educated here, there are just a bunch of statements being made and no studies being posted that prove these points unless I missed them.
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Actually, evidence has been presented AGAINST iForces statement. ;)
 
poison said:
Actually, evidence has been presented AGAINST iForces statement. ;)
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Please read both David and my posts, I disagree. I am on a business trip in FL until Friday, but will try to dig up some studies asap :)

really wasn't intending to anger/upset anyone, just asking an honest question.

I didn't make this thread to pimp hemavol(which does "solve" the situation), although it wouldve been easy to. I simply intended to bring about discussion on the subject so I can learn more about the psyche of the avg AM poster. I am trying to become involved in this board for more than just promotions...I'm a bodybuilder/consumer myself, so please look past "he's trying to sell something". Just wanted to have a cool discussion :)


Again, I apolgize if I angered/upset anyone here with any of my posts.
 
iForce Dave said:
gplc can augment endothelial nitrix oxide synthase enzyme, which is a limiting step in NO production however, usually people take L-aginine in base or some modified salt or ester thinking they are increasing their bodies stores of Arginine, but that is not the case.

I think its best to explain it this way:

Citrulline is to Arginine, as Beta Alanine is to Carnosine....

CM = MORE ARGININE STORES BA = MORE CARNOSINE STORES

but trying to take arginine or carnosine doesnt do sh*t on its own.
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Just put a kilo of Citrulline and Beta Alanine in my cart :)
 
iForce said:
Please read both David and my posts, I disagree. I am on a business trip in FL until Friday, but will try to dig up some studies asap :)

really wasn't intending to anger/upset anyone, just asking an honest question.

I didn't make this thread to pimp hemavol(which does "solve" the situation), although it wouldve been easy to. I simply intended to bring about discussion on the subject so I can learn more about the psyche of the avg AM poster. I am trying to become involved in this board for more than just promotions...I'm a bodybuilder/consumer myself, so please look past "he's trying to sell something". Just wanted to have a cool discussion :)


Again, I apolgize if I angered/upset anyone here with any of my posts.
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Not at all! Anyway, you're allowed to pimp, so just up and do it!

Don't expect me to agree, though, because my experience says otherwise. :D We've all read the arginine doesn't work studies. Guess what? There's another mechanism of action, because it definitively DOES increase pumps, however useless or cosmetic they may be.
 
iForce said:
Please read both David and my posts, I disagree. I am on a business trip in FL until Friday, but will try to dig up some studies asap :)

really wasn't intending to anger/upset anyone, just asking an honest question.

I didn't make this thread to pimp hemavol(which does "solve" the situation), although it wouldve been easy to. I simply intended to bring about discussion on the subject so I can learn more about the psyche of the avg AM poster. I am trying to become involved in this board for more than just promotions...I'm a bodybuilder/consumer myself, so please look past "he's trying to sell something". Just wanted to have a cool discussion :)


Again, I apolgize if I angered/upset anyone here with any of my posts.
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That is what I was looking for; I had no idea Hemavol had what you were talking about. I was expecting you to pimp something, go for it! I like the profile after reading and am going to try it sometime soon.
 
Too bad Hemovol would be 327% more effective if they switched out arginine for the agmantine.
 
poison said:
Too bad Hemovol would be 327% more effective if they switched out arginine for the agmantine.
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The test would to be to run Hemavol for 2 weeks then Anadraulic Pump for 2 weeks, report back. AP is quite possibly the sickest pure pump product I have ever tried, better than Hemodraulix and I never thought I would say that. The good news is we have lots of choices.
 
oufinny said:
The test would to be to run Hemavol for 2 weeks then Anadraulic Pump for 2 weeks, report back. AP is quite possibly the sickest pure pump product I have ever tried, better than Hemodraulix and I never thought I would say that. The good news is we have lots of choices.
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Nice, I'll try the Pink Magic then Hemavol and after end with ASGT and provide feedback :AR15firing: FAT
 
oufinny said:
The test would to be to run Hemavol for 2 weeks then Anadraulic Pump for 2 weeks, report back. AP is quite possibly the sickest pure pump product I have ever tried, better than Hemodraulix and I never thought I would say that. The good news is we have lots of choices.
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Them's strong words. Hemodraulix's reputation is top notch. I'm a big fan of AP, definitely, but haven't tried Hemodraulix.

Pump products are a fun extra, IMO. Considering the majority of my progress has been made by neither seeking nor achieving a pump, they're the kind of thing that I use if/when I feel like it.

That's a big part of why I don't care whether the product I use actually activates NOS - I've had no trouble gaining in both size and strength without it, so why be concerned?
 
poison said:
Too bad Hemovol would be 327% more effective if they switched out arginine for the agmantine.
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LMFAO



Resolve said:
Them's strong words. Hemodraulix's reputation is top notch. I'm a big fan of AP, definitely, but haven't tried Hemodraulix.

Pump products are a fun extra, IMO. Considering the majority of my progress has been made by neither seeking nor achieving a pump, they're the kind of thing that I use if/when I feel like it.

That's a big part of why I don't care whether the product I use actually activates NOS - I've had no trouble gaining in both size and strength without it, so why be concerned?
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Just for :censored: and giggles my friend
 
Listen, people like the pump because it makes them look bigger, period. That's the only reason. Powerlifters are the strongest mofo's on the planet, and usually the biggest, and much of what they do produces minimal pumps. But your average joe is impatient, think powerlifting sucks, wants instant results, and doesn't have to balls to lift real heavy ****. So he takes a pump product looking for a free ride, instead of buckling down and lifting heavy, eating large.
 
iForce said:
You're feeling a "pump" from the arginine due to it actually constricting blood vessels.

The pump you feel is only a feeling that in no way is facilitating growth. Only true NO products provide both huge pumps + growth
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hardknock said:
Or, are you saying that it is not really giving you a "pump" by definition because it only "constricts blood vessels", so by definition, it is not a "pump" per se but just a feeling of the pump.
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Still looking for clarification on this.
 
oufinny said:
The test would to be to run Hemavol for 2 weeks then Anadraulic Pump for 2 weeks, report back. AP is quite possibly the sickest pure pump product I have ever tried, better than Hemodraulix and I never thought I would say that. The good news is we have lots of choices.
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glad you like hemodraulix, but it is more than just a pump product.
 
hardknock said:
Still looking for clarification on this.
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He said that's the feeling he got from personal use. I'd bet money there isn't a single study backing that idea up. There are lots of studies showing vasodialation, just not with oral use.
 
I enjoy an informative thread and will search out some of the studies listed. My concern is not so much the pump but the cheap viagra effect. Prohormones take a toll sometimes and I dont want to miss out. I think arginine does the trick but will be dosing high tonight to see if I can definately see a difference.
 
wastedwhiteboy2 said:
I enjoy an informative thread and will search out some of the studies listed. My concern is not so much the pump but the cheap viagra effect. Prohormones take a toll sometimes and I dont want to miss out. I think arginine does the trick but will be dosing high tonight to see if I can definately see a difference.
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icarriin + yohimbe HCL = cheap viagra
 
thebigt said:
glad you like hemodraulix, but it is more than just a pump product.
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I know that bigt, I got to try some samples from Celc and liked it but did not really respond all that well to it compared to Anadraulic Pump. That being said, I was on a lower carb diet at the time so muscle glycogen stores were low and just getting any pump at the time was a great feeling. I noticed that with AP it didn't matter what my diet was, I still was swollen up like a balloon. I will also add I was never more sore or had worse doms then when I took AP so I felt based on that I was getting the growth I was looking for. Whether or not that is true or not, I can't say, not a scientist here.
 
poison said:
Listen, people like the pump because it makes them look bigger, period. That's the only reason. Powerlifters are the strongest mofo's on the planet, and usually the biggest, and much of what they do produces minimal pumps. But your average joe is impatient, think powerlifting sucks, wants instant results, and doesn't have to balls to lift real heavy ****. So he takes a pump product looking for a free ride, instead of buckling down and lifting heavy, eating large.
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i used to do powerlifting, it wasnt worth the injuries.

pump products with DC training and i know why arnold said the pump was like cumming.

arginine, creatine, and some glycerol monosterate makes me blow up twice my size
 
tnubs said:
i used to do powerlifting, it wasnt worth the injuries.

pump products with DC training and i know why arnold said the pump was like cumming.

arginine, creatine, and some glycerol monosterate makes me blow up twice my size
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have you tried without the arginine? Maybe try it with citrulline and see if that works better. Theoretically it should
 
oufinny said:
I know that bigt, I got to try some samples from Celc and liked it but did not really respond all that well to it compared to Anadraulic Pump. That being said, I was on a lower carb diet at the time so muscle glycogen stores were low and just getting any pump at the time was a great feeling. I noticed that with AP it didn't matter what my diet was, I still was swollen up like a balloon. I will also add I was never more sore or had worse doms then when I took AP so I felt based on that I was getting the growth I was looking for. Whether or not that is true or not, I can't say, not a scientist here.
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MOD EDIT: Please review the rep rules pertaining to posting and signatures. Thank you.
 
iForce said:
I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
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I thought arginine was a precursor to NO?:pokey:
 
iForce Dave said:
icarriin + yohimbe HCL = cheap viagra
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You mean cheap as in barely effective?

Have you taken prescription Viagra? If you have then you cannot possibly say that icarriin and yohimbe hcl equals the results.
 
iForce said:
:sigh:


yes it is. arginine stores in ur body are precurosors to NO...oral consumption of arginine does not increase arginine stores in the body however. this means no additional no
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Well, a vast majority of people enjoy much increased pumps from arginine. Conversely, a vast majority don't get much from agmantine (products like Blueprint didn't do well at all).

Obviously the studies don't necessarily pan out in reality, or they're looking at the wrong mechanism of action.
 
a combination of gaba/arginine is a cheap stack that will boost hgh levels pre workout.



science has shown trib to be worthless, but i still like it.

also as far as science goes, the info paper that comes with my test cyp says 'this drug has not been shown to be effective for the enhancement of athletic performance', so much for science, lol. if i remember right, around 10-15 years ago science said that creatine had no effect on muscles-they have since changed their tune. it seems the more science learns, the more they find they don't know.
 
i-force get seem some damn hemavol so i can compare it to arginine as im currently loving hemodraulix. I dont need a bottle shoot me enough for a workout or two
 
I love the pump and I have tried nearly every pump product on the market. I beleive there are those who respond better to one product as opposed to another. For instance arginine does little for me (even invery high doses) in the way of a pump but my two lifting buddies love it. Conversly, I respond best to GPLC while it does very little for them. I currently mix one scoop of PreMax with one scoop of RagNOrok or NO Shotgun and I get great pumps even without carb loading.
 
poison said:
Well, a vast majority of people enjoy much increased pumps from arginine. Conversely, a vast majority don't get much from agmantine (products like Blueprint didn't do well at all).

Obviously the studies don't necessarily pan out in reality, or they're looking at the wrong mechanism of action.
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Humans suck as a scientific model. By far the most difficult creature to get to cooperate or react predictably in any experiment.
 
BBB said:
I love the pump and I have tried nearly every pump product on the market. I beleive there are those who respond better to one product as opposed to another. For instance arginine does little for me (even invery high doses) in the way of a pump but my two lifting buddies love it. Conversly, I respond best to GPLC while it does very little for them. I currently mix one scoop of PreMax with one scoop of RagNOrok or NO Shotgun and I get great pumps even without carb loading.
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It's unfortunate, but as with everything there are "responders" and "non-responders" to supps.

I have seen research on GPLC and while very promising and shown to be better than the typical arginine, still even discloses that some individuals may be non-responders.

Companies can research and research and utilize ingredients that are "proven" to be better, but it comes down to the individual and how their body responds best to....
 
Oral arginine reduces systemic blood pressure in type 2 diabetes: its potential role in nitric oxide generation.

Huynh NT, Tayek JA.

Department of Internal Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, UCLA School of Medicine, Torrance, California 90509, USA.
Abstract

OBJECTIVES: Arginine is converted in the endothelial cells to nitric oxide (NO) and citrulline. NO is a potent vasodilator in humans, but diabetics may have a reduced generation of NO which results in endothelial dysfunction. The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of oral arginine on nitric oxide production, counter-regulatory hormones and blood pressure in mildly hypertensive type 2 diabetic patients. METHODS: A prospective, crossover clinical trial was performed over a three-day stay in the General Clinical Research Center. Six patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus and mild hypertension consented and were given orally three grams of arginine per hour for 10 hours on either day 2 or day 3. On both days 2 and 3, blood pressure was monitored between 5 AM and 4 PM and mean pressure determined. RESULTS: Oral arginine increased plasma citrulline from 31.3 +/- 6.0 to 41.5 +/- 6.0 micro mol/L (mean +/- SEM; p < 0.05) which may reflect an increased conversion of arginine into NO and citrulline. Arginine reduced systolic BP from 135 +/- 7 to 123 +/- 8 mmHg; p < 0.05. Diastolic BP fell from 86.9 +/- 1.7 to 80.7 +/- 2.4 mmHg; p < 0.05). The reduction in BP was noted to occur two hours after starting oral arginine, and BP returned to normal within one hour of stopping the arginine. The oral arginine had no effect on C-peptide, insulin or other hormone concentrations. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that oral arginine may increase endothelial nitric oxide synthase (NOS) to increase vascular NO and temporally reduce blood pressure in mildly hypertensive type 2 diabetic patients.
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Oral L-arginine Supplement and Nitric Oxide Generation:

Implication in Vascular Health (1/28/05)

L-arginine is an essential amino acid required by the constitutive enzyme, endothelial NO oxide synthase (eNOS), to produce NO. In healthy humans, L-arginine induces peripheral vasodilatation and inhibits platelet aggregation due to an increased NO production. Clinical trials to date support potential clinical applications of L-arginine in the treatment of coronary artery disease and peripheral arterial disease, as well as in the prevention of in-stent restenosis. We, the Cholesterol Center of the Jewish Hospital in Cincinnati, propose that L-arginine supplementation may be novel therapy for Buerger’s disease. A pilot study is underway to investigate the effectiveness of L-arginine in treating Buerger’s Disease.
L-arginine and Vascular Pathophysiology top of page

L-arginine and NO release

Studies have shown that oral L-arginine supplements improve vascular health through NO generation. In healthy volunteers, systemic L-arginine administration (30 g/300 ml/30 min) significantly increased the release of nitrite/nitrate in urine. Plasma concentrations of c-GMP and L-citrulline, the by-product of NO from L-arginine, were also significantly increased [1]. One intravenous infusion of L-arginine (30 g, 60 minutes) in patients with critical limb ischemia (peripheral arterial occlusive disease stages Fontaine III or IV) showed significantly increased urinary NO3- and cGMP excretion, indicating an enhanced systemic NO production. Increased urinary NO3- excretion may be a sum effect of NO synthase substrate provision (L-arginine) [2]. A prospective, crossover clinical trial was performed in patients with type II diabetes and mild hypertension. After giving orally three grams of arginine per hour for 10 hours, the plasma citrulline level significantly increased, which may reflect an increased conversion of arginine into NO and citrulline [3]. In a prospective randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled study on men with organic erectile dysfunction, 6 weeks of orally administered L-arginine (5 g/day) significantly increased plasma and urine nitrite and nitrate, both of which are stable metabolites of NO [4]. However, conflicting reports regarding the effect of L-arginine supplements on NO release do exist. For example, oral L-arginine (9 g) daily for 1 month in a group of patients with coronary artery disease failed to show improvement of NO bioavailability [5]. Another study showed that L-arginine stimulates NO production and induces vasorelaxation in CAD patients, but not in patients with primary pulmonary hypertension [6]. We believe that the doses, routes (oral vs. intravenous), duration of treatment, and disease states in these studies may be contributing factors to this discrepancy.
L-arginine and Endothelial Function

The effect of L-arginine therapy on endothelial function has been studied in health and disease states. A study in healthy volunteers showed that postprandial endothelial impairment is partly abolished by L-arginine administration (6g/day, for 10days) [7]. Aging is associated with progressive endothelial dysfunction in normal humans. Endothelial cell function was improved by oral L-arginine supplementation (16g/day for 2 weeks) in a group of healthy elderly subjects [8]. L-arginine also improves endothelial function in hypercholesterolemic subjects [9]. In a prospective, double-blind, randomized crossover trial, oral L-arginine (7g/day for 3days) improve endothelium-dependent dilatation and reduce monocyte/endothelial cell adhesion in young men with coronary artery disease [10].

Improvement of endothelial function by L-arginine will lead to improved vasodilatation and therefore increased blood flow. For example, one single 6-g dose of L-arginine improved flow-mediated vasodilatation of the brachial artery in a small randomized double-blind trial of 35 patients with essential hypertension [11]. A single 30-g intravenous infusion of L-arginine improved basal femoral artery blood flow in patients with peripheral arterial disease and critical limb ischemia [2]. Twice daily administration of intravenous L-arginine (16 g total) for 3 wk improved flow-mediated vasodilatation of the superficial femoral artery in patients with intermittent claudication [12].
L-arginine and Platelet Aggregation

In healthy human subjects, L-arginine infusion (1 g/min for 30 min) significantly reduces platelet aggregation (20+/-4%), and blood viscosity [13]. In a prospective, double-blind, randomized crossover trial in young healthy subjects, oral L-arginine (21g/day for 3 days) inhibited platelet aggregation by way of the nitric oxide pathway. However, it had no effect on systemic hemodynamic variables, plasma nitrosylated protein levels, or endothelium-dependent dilation. Therefore, at certain doses, oral L-arginine may result in a relatively platelet-specific increase in nitric oxide production [14].
A double-blinded, placebo-controlled study demonstrated that dietary supplementation with L-arginine (8.4g/day for 2 weeks) can modestly attenuate the increased platelet reactivity seen in hypercholesterolemic patients. This effect persisted for 2 weeks after discontinuation of arginine [15].
L-arginine and homocysteine metabolism

Mild to moderate elevations of plasma homocysteine levels in healthy subjects activates coagulation, and modifies the adhesive properties of endothelium [16]. Mechanisms responsible for endothelial dysfunction in hyperhomocyst(e)inemia may involve impaired bioavailability of NO, possibly secondary to accumulation of the endogenous NO synthase inhibitor asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA) and increased oxidative stress [17-18]. In a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover study, oral L-arginine (12 g/d for 3 wk) substantially reduced plasma levels of homocysteine. Relative to placebo, L-arginine changed plasma homocysteine (-2.0 umol/L) (P < 0.03). The change in plasma L-arginine was inversely correlated with the change in plasma homocysteine (r = -0.57, P = 0.03) [19]. In patients with peripheral arterial occlusive disease (PAOD) and hyperhomocyst(e)inemia, L-arginine (24 g/day for 8 wks) significantly improved endothelial function and flow-dependent vasodilation [17].

Pharmacokinetics of L-arginine top of page

The vascular effects of L-arginine are closely correlated with its plasma concentrations [20]. Knowledge of the pharmacokinetics of L-arginine may be useful in the design of clinical trials involving this agent, as well as in the interpretation of the pharmacodynamics of this important precursor of nitric oxide. A study examined the disposition of L-arginine in hypercholesterolaemic subjects during long-term administration. Pharmacokinetic studies were performed at regular intervals (4 weeks) during a 12-week period of oral L-arginine administration (14-21 g/day). The average plasma L-arginine concentrations before (baseline) and during administration were 16.1+/-1.2 and 22.5+/-1.3 mcg/ml respectively (P<0.05). Plasma concentrations of L-arginine remained above baseline throughout weeks 2-12. The mean non-renal clearance of L-arginine during the four visits remained constant [21].
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The following quotes are from the first page of this thread alone:

I think arginine has merit in that it can help provide a psychological edge due to vascularity, pump etc
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arginine helps me get a pump, my workout buddy too. its not in our heads.
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I notice an increase in pump when I take it pre-workout.
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i used nanox9 by mussle tech and it was a blend of 4 Different forms of arginine and got such a pump my skin was bright red and arms felt like they were gonna pop and that was before i even started working out what else does this but NO. im not trying to boost the product either i hate muscle tech
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There are 5 more pages of that to peruse, let alone the whole site. So your thread kind of backfired on you, iForce.

So far you haven't posted anything but bull**** (arginine CONSTRICTS blood vessels, which makes it feel like a pump? Que?) and your opinion. How about posting solid evidence or studies to prove your point, and your products?



So, iForce, where's your evidence
 
Neither of these is specific to a resistance training situation. Granted, there is an obvious correlation but if a study was done with resistance training that will prove your points in a way that cannot be argued with.
 
I don't need to prove anything, I'm not the one who posted this thread. iForce asked why 'we' are still using arginine, and we've given ample explanation. iForce continues to question the responses, but without backing up their stance with anything.
 
poison said:
I don't need to prove anything, I'm not the one who posted this thread. iForce asked why 'we' are still using arginine, and we've given ample explanation. iForce continues to question the responses, but without backing up their stance with anything.
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I am not trying to disagree with you Poison, far from it. All I am saying is you are trying to make a point that they are wrong with their assumption, your right to do that; but if you present studies that are RELEVANT to the training we do you will have won the argument hands down. There is no way for them to dispute that kind of evidence.
 
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