Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?

[poison]

arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite.

You're feeling a "pump" from the arginine due to it actually constricting blood vessels.

I mean seriously? That's absolute hogwash. I'm still waiting for clarification on this, something to justify those statements.

You want to sell Hemovol? Do it, kick ass. You want to question arginine? Be my guest, I might agree with you, as I too, believe that though arginine DOES provide killer pumps, those pumps aren't beneficial to performance. But stating that arginine doesn't increase NO = BS; arginine vasoconstricts = BS.

Don't fabricate bull**** to pump your product.

 

[poison]

I am not trying to disagree with you Poison, far from it. All I am saying is you are trying to make a point that they are wrong with their assumption, your right to do that; but if you present studies that are RELEVANT to the training we do you will have won the argument hands down. There is no way for them to dispute that kind of evidence.

**** training. They said:

I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!

To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.

A close second is the CEE scam

I posted two studies refuting that stance. And I can post a ton more. So WTF, I'm waiting for something besides bull**** from these guys.

I got nothing against iForce, but they need to realize this isn't BB.com , where we'll swallow nonsense hook, line, and sinker.

 

[thebigt]

Humans suck as a scientific model. By far the most difficult creature to get to cooperate or react predictably in any experiment.

the best post in the entire thread. :beerchug:

 

[BBB]

Arginine Alpha-Keto Glutarate (A-AKG) is actually two supplements combined in a ratio of 1:1, or 2:1 in most nitric oxide products.

Arginine is the raw material used in the human body to produce all forms of Nitric Oxide by way of a process called Nitric Oxide Synthase (NOS). Nitric Oxide products do not contain Nitric Oxide; they contain some form of Arginine with most using A-AKG. Arginine base (free form) or Arginine HCL have both been found to have low bioavailability meaning it is poorly absorbed and poorly stored in the human body. The AKG molecule was added because AKG has been proven in clinical trials to increase Arginine storage in the body and some think it may improve bioavailability of arginine up to 10 fold! 1,000mg of A-AKG is usually 500mg of Arginine bonded with 500mg of Alpha Keto Glutarate. Also good NO products should be enteric coated. An enteric coating is sprayed on tablets to prevent them from breaking down in the stomach thus absorption takes place in the intestinal track where absorption is optimal for arginine. Some consumers have tried to make their own home made version of Nitric Oxide products to save money, but if they cannot press tablets and enteric coat them at home, 30g of Arginine or 3g of A-AKG mixed in water will not provide the same effect. The product must be enteric coated and time-released. If you want to test the enteric coating of a Nitric Oxide product, leave it in a glass of milk for 24 hours, if it is not somewhat of a tablet after 24 hours, it is either not enteric coated at all, or enteric coated at a low pH (1-3). A good NO product will pretty much remain the same after sitting in a glass of milk for one day. Most nitric oxide products contain about 1,000mg of A-AKG per enteric coated tablet at a ration of 1:1 or 2:1, the recommended dosage is 6,000mg of A-AKG per day (3,000mg AM, 3,000mg mid-day), but please be advised if you are over 200lbs, you may need 7,000mg to 10,000mg (seven to ten capsule) per day to see the same results as some one who weighs around 150-180lbs.

How does NO increase pumps?

The favorable process of Nitric Oxide production (eNOS) takes place in the endothelial cells that line the walls of blood vessels. If produced in the brain, it is called nNOS. iNOS is an unfavorable process that produces Nitric Oxide during inflammation. Nitric Oxide when produced during iNOS, is very harmful and is an extremely potent oxidative free radical (destroys cells). An increase in eNOS activity is responsible for lowering blood pressure and "opening up the blood vessels" effectively lowering bad cholesterol and increasing the nutrient carrying capacity of the cells. The pump you normally feel when exercising as a result of eNOS activity is also stimulated in a controlled time-released manner from time-released, enteric coated A-AKG supplements. This increase in diameter of blood vessels also lead to what is being called a "sustained-pump" (Invalid Link Removed). I believe NO products increase iNOS production when they do not contain iNOS limiting antioxidants such as the herb gynostemma, alpha lipoic acid, or a form of Rosemary extract called Rose-ox.

Why use with antioxidants?

As mentioned before, antioxidants improve eNOS production and some limit the production of iNOS. If you are using a NO product that contains A-AKG, you will get great results when combining these products with antioxidants that included those mentioned previously as well as vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and or selenium. A good antioxidant to stack with a NO product is Beverly’s Advanced Antioxidant, or Beverly’s Ultra C. For those who do not respond to six tablets of a NO product or those who eat a diet low in antioxidants, adding an antioxidant formula may prevent you from having to increase the dosage to seven to ten tablets per day.

 

[poison]

I am not trying to disagree with you Poison, far from it. All I am saying is you are trying to make a point that they are wrong with their assumption, your right to do that; but if you present studies that are RELEVANT to the training we do you will have won the argument hands down. There is no way for them to dispute that kind of evidence.

OK, fine.

Abstract

OBJECTIVES

The aim of this study was to analyze whether L-arginine (L-arg.) has comparable or additive effects to physical exercise regarding endothelium-dependent vasodilation in patients with chronic heart failure (CHF).

BACKGROUND

Endothelial dysfunction in patients with CHF can be corrected by both dietary supplementation with L-arg. and regular physical exercise.

METHODS

Forty patients with severe CHF (left ventricular ejection fraction 19 ± 9%) were randomized to an L-arg. group (8 g/day), a training group (T) with daily handgrip training, L-arg. and T (L-arg. + T) or an inactive control group (C). The mean internal radial artery diameter was determined at the beginning and after four weeks in response to brachial arterial administration of acetylcholine (ACh) (7.5, 15, 30 μg/min) and nitroglycerin (0.2 mg/min) with a transcutaneous high-resolution 10 MHz A-mode echo tracking system coupled with a Doppler device. The power of the study to detect clinically significant differences in endothelium-dependent vasodilation was 96.6%.

RESULTS

At the beginning, the mean endothelium-dependent vasodilation in response to ACh, 30 μg/min was 2.54 ± 0.09% (p = NS between groups). After four weeks, internal radial artery diameter increased by 8.8 ± 0.9% after ACh 30 μg/min in L-arg. (p < 0.001 vs. C), by 8.6 ± 0.9% in T (p < 0.001 vs. C) and by 12.0 ± 0.3% in L-arg. + T (p < 0.005 vs. C, L-arg. and T). Endothelium-independent vasodilation as assessed by infusion of nitroglycerin was similar in all groups at the beginning and at the end of the study.

CONCLUSIONS

Dietary supplementation of L-arg. as well as regular physical exercise improved agonist-mediated, endothelium-dependent vasodilation to a similar extent. Both interventions together seem to produce additive effects with respect to endothelium-dependent vasodilation.

Beneficial effects of a long-term oral L-arginine treatment added to a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program in obese, insulin-resistant type 2 diabetic patients
Pietro Lucotti,1 Emanuela Setola,1 Lucilla D. Monti,1 Elena Galluccio,2 Sabrina Costa,2 Emilia P. Sandoli,2 Isabella Fermo,3 Giovanni Rabaiotti,4 Roberto Gatti,4 and PierMarco Piatti1

1Diabetology, Endocrinology and Metabolic Disease Unit, 2Core Laboratory, Diabetology, Endocrinology and Metabolic Disease Unit, 3Separative Technics Laboratory, and 4Rehabilitation and Functional Reeducation Division, Fondazione Centro San Raffaele del Monte Tabor, Milan, Italy

Submitted 3 January 2006 ; accepted in final form 4 June 2006

Because chronic L-arginine supplementation improves insulin sensitivity and endothelial function in nonobese type 2 diabetic patients, the aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of a long-term oral L-arginine therapy on adipose fat mass (FM) and muscle free-fat mass (FFM) distribution, daily glucose levels, insulin sensitivity, endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance who were treated with a combined period of hypocaloric diet and exercise training. Thirty-three type 2 diabetic patients participated in a hypocaloric diet plus an exercise training program for 21 days. Furthermore, they were divided into two groups in randomized order: the first group was also treated with L-arginine (8.3 g/day), and the second group was treated with placebo. Although in the placebo group body weight, waist circumference, daily glucose profiles, fructosamine, insulin, and homeostasis model assessment index significantly decreased, L-arginine supplementation further decreased FM (P < 0.05) and waist circumference (P < 0.0001), preserving FFM (P < 0.03), and improved mean daily glucose profiles (P < 0.0001) and fructosamine (P < 0.03). Moreover, change in area under the curve of cGMP (second messenger of nitric oxide; P < 0.001), superoxide dismutase (index of antioxidant capacity; P < 0.01), and adiponectin levels (P < 0.02) increased, whereas basal endothelin-1 levels (P < 0.01) and leptin-to-adiponectin ratio (P < 0.05) decreased in the L-arginine group. Long-term oral L-arginine treatment resulted in an additive effect compared with a diet and exercise training program alone on glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity. Furthermore, it improved endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance.

Short-term oral administration of L-arginine improves hemodynamics and exercise capacity in patients with precapillary pulmonary hypertension.

Nagaya N, Uematsu M, Oya H, Sato N, Sakamaki F, Kyotani S, Ueno K, Nakanishi N, Yamagishi M, Miyatake K.

Department of Internal Medicine and Department of Pharmacy, National Cardiovascular Center, and Osaka Seamen's Insurance Hospital, Osaka, Japan.
Abstract

We sought to assess the effects of oral supplementation of L-arginine, the precursor of nitric oxide (NO), on hemodynamics and exercise capacity in patients with pulmonary hypertension. Acute hemodynamic responses to oral L-arginine (0.5 g/10 kg body weight) or placebo were examined in 19 patients with primary or precapillary secondary pulmonary hypertension. Cardiopulmonary exercise tests were performed to measure peak oxygen consumption (peak V O(2)) and the ventilatory response to carbon dioxide production (V E-V CO(2) slope) before and 1 wk after treatment with L-arginine (1.5 g/10 kg body weight/d) or placebo. Oral supplementation of L-arginine significantly increased plasma L-citrulline, which indicated enhancement of NO production. Supplemental L-arginine produced a 9% decrease in mean pulmonary arterial pressure (53 +/- 4 to 48 +/- 4 mm Hg, p < 0.05) and a 16% decrease in pulmonary vascular resistance (14.8 +/- 1.5 to 12.4 +/- 1.4 Wood units, p < 0.05). L-arginine modestly decreased mean systemic arterial pressure (92 +/- 4 to 87 +/- 3 mm Hg, p < 0.05). A 1-wk supplementation of L-arginine resulted in a slight increase in peak V O(2) (831 +/- 88 to 896 +/- 92 ml/min, p < 0.05) and a significant decrease in the V E- V CO(2) slope (43 +/- 4 to 37 +/- 3, p < 0.05) without significant systemic hypotension. Hemodynamics and exercise capacity remained unchanged during placebo administration. These results suggest that oral supplementation of L-arginine may have beneficial effects on hemodynamics and exercise capacity in patients with precapillary pulmonary hypertension.

Holy ****, there's more:

Abstract
Objective

We evaluated the pharmacokinetics, safety, and efficacy of l-arginine α-ketoglutarate (AAKG) in trained adult men.
Methods

Subjects participated in two studies that employed a randomized, double-blind, controlled design. In study 1, 10 healthy men (30–50 y old) fasted for 8 h and then ingested 4 g of time-released or non–timed-released AAKG. Blood samples were taken for 8 h after AAKG ingestion to assess the pharmacokinetic profile of l-arginine. After 1 wk the alternative supplement was ingested. In study 2, which was placebo controlled, 35 resistance-trained adult men (30–50 y old) were randomly assigned to ingest 4 g of AAKG (three times a day, i.e., 12 g daily, n = 20) or placebo (n = 15). Participants performed 4 d of periodized resistance training per week for 8 wk. At 0, 4, and 8 wk of supplementation the following tests were performed: clinical blood markers, one repetition maximum bench press, isokinetic quadriceps muscle endurance, anaerobic power, aerobic capacity, total body water, body composition, and psychometric parameters tests. Data were analyzed by repeated measures analysis of variance.
Results

In study 1, significant differences were observed in plasma arginine levels in subjects taking non–timed-release and timed-release AAKG. In study 2, significant differences were observed in the AAKG group (P < 0.05) for 1RM bench press, Wingate peak power, blood glucose, and plasma arginine. No significant differences were observed between groups in body composition, total body water, isokinetic quadriceps muscle endurance, or aerobic capacity.
Conclusion

AAKG supplementation appeared to be safe and well tolerated, and positively influenced 1RM bench press and Wingate peak power performance. AAKG did not influence body composition or aerobic capacity.

Make my point yet?

 

[iForce]

Poison...please explain to me how oral consumption of arginine can raise NO. Have you heard if the arginase enzyme?

Citrulline can raise arginine stores...arginine cannot. Plain and simple.

 

[iForce]

Those studies are not on healthy males...they all have no deficiencies.

I will post studies proving my point asap

 

[jherman08]

I too have read it does not increase Nitric Oxide, but no doubt it gives a hell of a pump.

I dont want to defend my statement, just stating what i read lol, go at it Poison and IForce :duel:

 

[DAdams91982]

Effects of Arginine-Based Supplements on the Physical Working Capacity at the Fatigue Threshold.

Camic CL, Housh TJ, Zuniga JM, Hendrix RC, Mielke M, Johnson GO, Schmidt RJ.

1Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Nutrition and Health Sciences, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, Lincoln, Nebraska; and 2Department of Sport Sciences, University of the Pacific, Stockton, California.
Abstract

Camic, CL, Housh, TJ, Zuniga, JM, Hendrix, CR, Mielke, M, Johnson, GO, and Schmidt, RJ. Effects of arginine-based supplements on the physical working capacity at the fatigue threshold. J Strength Cond Res 24(X): 000-000, 2010-The purpose of the present study was to examine the effects of daily oral administration of arginine-based supplements for 4 weeks on the physical working capacity at the fatigue threshold (PWCFT). The PWCFT test is an electromyographic (EMG) procedure for estimating the highest power output that can be maintained without neuromuscular evidence of fatigue. The study used a double-blind, placebo-controlled design. Fifty college-aged men (mean age +/- SD = 23.9 +/- 3.0) were randomized into 1 of 3 groups: (a) placebo (n = 19); (b) 1.5 g arginine (n = 14); or (c) 3.0 g arginine (n = 17). The placebo was microcrystalline cellulose. The 1.5-g arginine group ingested 1.5 g of arginine and 300 mg of grape seed extract, whereas the 3.0 g arginine group ingested 3.0 g of arginine and 300 mg of grape seed extract. All subjects performed an incremental test to exhaustion on a cycle ergometer to determine their PWCFT before supplementation (PRE) and after 4 weeks of supplementation (POST). Surface EMG signals were recorded from the vastus lateralis using a bipolar electrode arrangement during the incremental tests for the determination of the PRE and POST supplementation PWCFT values. There were significant mean increases (PRE to POST) in PWCFT for the 1.5 g (22.4%) and 3.0 g (18.8%) supplement groups, but no change for the placebo group (-1.6%). These findings supported the use of arginine-based supplements, at the dosages examined in the present investigation, as an ergogenic aid for untrained individuals.

 

[poison]

First off, you said 'arginine does not raise NO'. That's patently false. If you meant to specify oral, then you should do so.

Then you said it constricts blood vessels. That's false. I'd like to see evidence otherwise.

Now you specify oral aginine does not raise NO. I just posted two studies showing otherwise. If you meant to say 'oral arginine doesn't raise NO...in healthy males', you should specify.

Then you overlook the last study I posted...in healthy males.

Then you say you'll post studies.


How about this: go home, formulate an effective sales pitch with a coherent message and studies to back it up (since you say you have the studies, but haven't posted them), then come back and start over, without the BS.

 

[iForce]

First off, you said 'arginine does not raise NO'. That's patently false. If you meant to specify oral, then you should do so.

Then you said it constricts blood vessels. That's false. I'd like to see evidence otherwise.

Now you specify oral aginine does not raise NO. I just posted two studies showing otherwise. If you meant to say 'oral arginine doesn't raise NO...in healthy males', you should specify.

Then you overlook the last study I posted...in healthy males.

Then you say you'll post studies.


How about this: go home, formulate an effective sales pitch with a coherent message and studies to back it up (since you say you have the studies, but haven't posted them), then come back and start over, without the BS.

First off, I would just like to say I really have no idea why you feel the need to be rude to me, and talk to me in such a demeaning fashion. I have done nothing but be cordial and polite, and stated numerous times I started this thread simply to discuss things with people like you.


I've already stated in this thread at least 5 times that arginine in the human body is the precursor to NO, however oral consumption of arginine will not increase arginine stores within the human body. The way to do this is through supplementation of Citrulline Malate.

David pointed out it works almost identically to Beta Alanine/Carnosine. BA increases carnosine stores in the body, however Carnosine cannot...get it?


As I said, I will post some studies up asap. In the mean time, I'd love to discuss and debate with you, however I refuse to do so if it means I will be treated in such a way. I am here to learn just as much I am here to promote, so please take your drama to bodybuilding . com where it belongs.

 

[poison]

Poison...please explain to me how oral consumption of arginine can raise NO. Have you heard if the arginase enzyme?

Citrulline can raise arginine stores...arginine cannot. Plain and simple.

Then how 'bout dem studies I posted??

Or this:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[poison]

First off, I would just like to say I really have no idea why you feel the need to be rude to me, and talk to me in such a demeaning fashion. I have done nothing but be cordial and polite, and stated numerous times I started this thread simply to discuss things with people like you.


I've already stated in this thread at least 5 times that arginine in the human body is the precursor to NO, however oral consumption of arginine will not increase arginine stores within the human body. The way to do this is through supplementation of Citrulline Malate.

David pointed out it works almost identically to Beta Alanine/Carnosine. BA increases carnosine stores in the body, however Carnosine cannot...get it?


As I said, I will post some studies up asap. In the mean time, I'd love to discuss and debate with you, however I refuse to do so if it means I will be treated in such a way. I am here to learn just as much I am here to promote, so please take your drama to bodybuilding . com where it belongs.

Calling you on false statements is being rude? I'm still being cordial, but I'm very skeptical of your avoidance of my questions, and inability to post evidence.

 

[iForce]

Calling you on false statements is being rude?

Questioning me and what I say is not rude, the was you have been addressing me is. I have absolutely no issues debating with you till the cows come home, but I refuse to do so in the manner I am currently being spoken to(typed to?) in?


I never stated that arginine itself is not the precursor to NO in the human body. Please find a post where I said this, and I will happily edit it to the truth.

I have simply stated this from the start:

1. Oral consumption of arginine cannot increase arginine stores in normal humans.
2. Citrulline Malate can raise these stores in a similar fashion to how BA/Carnosine work
3. L-Arginine does provide most users with a "pump" however due to the information/studies I have seen, this pump is not consistant with an increase of NO, however most likely due to an insulin response.


As I have also previously stated, I am not home yet. I will post studies as soon as I am able to...but until then, you trying to put me down and tell me to "come back with a better sales pitch" does not help ANYONE decide what they believe to be the truth. If i wanetd to turn this into a sales pitch, i would have from post #1

 

[WhatsaRoid?]

First off, you said 'arginine does not raise NO'. That's patently false. If you meant to specify oral, then you should do so.

Then you said it constricts blood vessels. That's false. I'd like to see evidence otherwise.

Now you specify oral aginine does not raise NO. I just posted two studies showing otherwise. If you meant to say 'oral arginine doesn't raise NO...in healthy males', you should specify.

Then you overlook the last study I posted...in healthy males.

Then you say you'll post studies.


How about this: go home, formulate an effective sales pitch with a coherent message and studies to back it up (since you say you have the studies, but haven't posted them), then come back and start over, without the BS.

God Damn :shocked:

At a consumer’s standpoint where we are tired of all the dam claims and mixed information I can honestly see what’s fueling poison in his posts. At the same time IForce has a point and he is entitled to what he believes in and sharing that with us even as a rep so his posts have merit.

I myself purchased AAKG and use it when I'm at low body fat, consuming 8,000mg divided into two dosages throughout my day and if I'm feeling frisky I'll go 12,000mg divided by three to four dosages then up my water intake. My point is as a consumer and at my age I prefer to research the claims and science behind products before making the jump to purchase them (as we all should) so with that said no need to get hostile on either side guys.

Poison is one of the boards diverse and very intelligent members so pulling anything past this guy will be hard so no point in trying without backing up your claims

IForce I rather like your type of marketing and your demeanor on the board will determine how we all view you and the company you represent. That said so far you have proven yourself these few days with far superior customer service then a few other board sponsors and we thank you for that and look forward to further clarification and studies you have on the subject of this thread.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Stop acting like drama queens. I don't need "i'm callin you out brah" or its hogwash or its BS types of posts. Its ****in arginine...not world peace and if you can't discuss it without getting angry then the problem lies with you, not anyone else.

 

[jherman08]

Stop acting like drama queens. I don't need "i'm callin you out brah" or its hogwash or its BS types of posts. Its ****in arginine...not world peace and if you can't discuss it without getting angry then the problem lies with you, not anyone else.

:You_Rock_Emoticon::head:

 

[poison]

I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans.

It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.

You're feeling a "pump" from the arginine due to it actually constricting blood vessels.

Lol


Arginine in the body DOES convert to NO

:sigh:


yes it is. arginine stores in ur body are precurosors to NO...oral consumption of arginine does not increase arginine stores in the body however. this means no additional no

It does, it doesn't, it does. Really? Why not answer hardknock when you get home:

Im not really sure I am following you thus far. You have stated in this thread, on a few occasions, that it does not give you any type of effect and not even a cosmetic "pump", yet you are saying that the "pump" he feels is only cosmetic and no growth (i agree there 100%) at all.

How can it be neither or both? Which is it?

3. L-Arginine does provide most users with a "pump" however due to the information/studies I have seen, this pump is not consistant with an increase of NO, however most likely due to an insulin response.

That's all you, iForce. Listen, you post a thread questioning nearly every other pre-workout product we use, and our personal experiences with them, but waffle between your opinion, and, uh, your other opinion.

Go back and read the thread. I'm not being a ****, I'm annoyed with your misinformation being used to boost your product and put others down. Hemovol very well may be better. But prove it.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'm annoyed

Obviously. So go relax a bit...

 

[iForce]

It does, it doesn't, it does. Really? Why not answer hardknock when you get home:






That's all you, iForce. Listen, you post a thread questioning nearly every other pre-workout product we use, and our personal experiences with them, but waffle between your opinion, and, uh, your other opinion.

Go back and read the thread. I'm not being a ****, I'm annoyed with your misinformation being used to boost your product and put others down. Hemovol very well may be better. But prove it.

You seem to be taking some large liberties with my words.


When I said "its been proven arginine does not raise NO" i "obviously" meant oral consumption.

 

[iForce]

here is one...more to come

Invalid Link Removed

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.

please see bold.

 

[poison]

Obviously. So go relax a bit...

:lol: Will do.

 

[poison]

here is one...more to come

Invalid Link Removed





please see bold.

Interesting. They supplemented for only three days prior. The studies I posted were 2-4 weeks, and dadams was also for 4 weeks, and both had different results.

 

[iForce]

Interesting. They supplemented for only three days prior. The studies I posted were 2-4 weeks, and dadams was also for 4 weeks, and both had different results.

Agreed, there are obvious differences. This study shows "short term" supplementation, or...as many people here take arginine, simply on workout days.

I am doing my best to pull up info, and will post it all here asap.

 

[iForce]

an interesting study on insulin response

Invalid Link Removed

 

[iForce]

another...

Invalid Link Removed

 

[iForce]

more...


Invalid Link Removed

 

[poison]

Agreed, there are obvious differences. This study shows "short term" supplementation, or...as many people here take arginine, simply on workout days.

I am doing my best to pull up info, and will post it all here asap.

Thank you!

 

[Resolve]

an interesting study on insulin response

Invalid Link Removed

I must say, that is some pretty compelling data. Don't just read the abstract here folks, dive into the full text.

The dose administered of arginine seems a bit high, but that is the only drawback I see in this study upon first glance.

I will have to go back and compare to the other studies I've read on this subject.

 

[jherman08]

resolve this resolve

 

[oufinny]

Wow this got out of hand fast! iForce, how about we get Poison to try a few days worth of Hemavol and see what he thinks. It may be the only way to stop this freight train from spiraling out of control. Let's see what iForce has to post, besides what he already did, and go from there. Wyatt is right, let's keep this civil and informative for the benefit of everyone. I, like many others, simply am trying to learn and its easier without the drama.

 

[iForce]

I'd gladly get him some samples

 

[Harry Manback]

I also would like to try Hemavol?

 

[jherman08]

I also would like to try Hemavol?

x3

 

[poison]

:lol: No need, though I never turn away samples. I'm just interested in any info you guys can post.

How about posting your reasoning behind using agmantine, iForce?

 

[Resolve]

It seemed to me everybody has done a pretty good job at being civil. Not perfect, but not bad.

Elsevier is being a bitch with their publications, so I'm having difficulty accessing the references of the literature I-Force posted.

Still, from what I'm seeing currently:

- It is only in Diabetics that Arg is capable of eliciting an insulin response, regardless of the presence or absence of glucose.

- Some glucagon was released with oral administration of Arg, though not enough IMO to elicit vasoconstriction, though that really will depend on the person.

- Arg IS the primary substrate of NOS. However, being a substrate does not necessitate that it is an activator or regulator as well. I.E. something else in most "pump" products is probably acting synergistically to increase either NOS activity or NOS expression, which in turns could lead to higher Arg utilization and, hence, vasodilation. This, however, is my speculation.

- All-in-all, this would indicate that the mode of action for Arg, if any, is still unknown. That does not mean it doesn't exist; merely that there may be more than meets the eye.

 

[thebigt]

finally some sense, for a minute i thought i had mistakenly gone to BaBy.com. geez, who the hell cares-if it works it works. i don't need a degree in aerospace engineering to know that a airplane will fly.

 

[kingdong]

The people who put out GPLC would have us think that it is the only thing that increases NO, but even they admit that glycine and carnitine are involved with NO, so they beat their own argument.

 

[hardknock]

Humans suck as a scientific model. By far the most difficult creature to get to cooperate or react predictably in any experiment.

LOL, but that is the great thing about science. Very little reacts the way it is predicted to react.

This is also why I keep all scientific studies at arms length (except those that have decades of studies behind them).

 

[capnsavem]

FANTASTIC THREAD.

iForce and poison have posted alot of interesting and useful info, and that, my friends, is why i read the whole damn thread.

poison is feisty!

 

[Resolve]

LOL, but that is the great thing about science. Very little reacts the way it is predicted to react.

This is also why I keep all scientific studies at arms length (except those that have decades of studies behind them).

Exactly - with people you can never be sure that the results you're getting actually reflect an underlying biologic program, or that your subjects are all screwing you over by eating improperly, or smoking, or taking undisclosed meds, or have an undiagnosed health problem, or any number of other things...

That's why I work with rodents and cell-lines. Far more controllable.

 

[MAxximal]

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[poison]

FANTASTIC THREAD.

iForce and poison have posted alot of interesting and useful info, and that, my friends, is why i read the whole damn thread.

poison is feisty!

I'm on Formestane LV.

/plausible deniability

 

[thebigt]

LOL, but that is the great thing about science. Very little reacts the way it is predicted to react.

This is also why I keep all scientific studies at arms length (except those that have decades of studies behind them).

if jose conseco had listened to science he would have known that anabolic steroids do not enhance athletic performance.





if you don't like a study you read keep looking, you will find one you like. it seems scientists agree about as much as politicians. :shocked:

 

[iForce]

1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.


Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009 Aug;19(4):355-65.
Bescós R, Gonzalez-Haro C, Pujol P, Drobnic F, Alonso E, Santolaria ML, Ruiz O, Esteve M, Galilea P.
Effects of dietary L-arginine intake on cardiorespiratory and metabolic adaptation in athletes.

To assess the effect of diet enrichment with L-arginine or supplementation at high doses on physiological adaptation during exercise, 9 athletes followed 3 different diets, each over 3 consecutive days, with a wash-out period of 4 d between training sessions: control diet (CD), 5.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine; Diet 1 (rich in L-arginine food), 9.0 +/- 1.1 g/d of L-arginine; and Diet 2 (the same as CD but including an oral supplement of 15 g/d), 20.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine. Plasma nitrate levels of each participant were determined on the day after each treatment. Participants performed a submaximal treadmill test (initial speed 10-11 km/hr, work increments 1 km/hr every 4 min until 85-90% VO2max, and passive recovery periods of 2 min). Oxygen uptake and heart rate were monitored throughout the test. Blood lactate concentration ([La-]b) was determined at the end of each stage. Repeated-measures ANOVA and paired Student's t tests were used to compare the various physiological parameters between diets. The level of significance was set at p < .05. [La-]b showed a significant effect at the 5-min time point between CD and Diet 2 (CD 3.0 +/- 0.5 mM, Diet 2 2.5 +/- 0.5 mM, p = .03), but this tendency was not found at higher exercise intensities. No significant differences were observed in any of the cardiorespiratory or plasma nitrate levels. In conclusion, dietary L-arginine intake on the days preceding the test does not improve physiological parameters during exercise.

 

[iForce]

Atherosclerosis. 1995 Dec;118(2):223-31.
Wennmalm A, Edlund A, Granström EF, Wiklund O.
Acute supplementation with the nitric oxide precursor L-arginine does not improve cardiovascular performance in patients with hypercholesterolemia.

Endothelial dysfunction based on lack of nitric oxide (NO) may contribute to several settings of cardiovascular disorder. Chronic oral supplementation with the NO precursor L-arginine counteracts the development of aortic atherosclerosis in cholesterol-fed rabbits, and i.v. infusion of L-arginine may acutely improve endothelium-dependent coronary epicardial vasodilation in patients with hypercholesterolemia (HC). To clarify whether excess NO precursor may also improve general cardiovascular performance in HC, we measured working capacity indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive forearm and skin blood flow in nine patients with elevated plasma cholesterol (9.1 +/- 0.2 mumol/l) following random double-blinded administration of L-arginine (16 g i.v.) or placebo. Infusion of L-arginine raised the plasma concentration of this amino acid from 85 +/- 12 to 2460 +/- 230 mumol/l but did not change the plasma level of the major NO metabolite nitrate. Maximal working capacity, indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive blood flow in the skin or forearm did not differ between the treatments. The lack of positive effect of L-arginine compared to placebo indicates that excess NO precursor did not improve microvascular endothelial function in the patients, or alternatively, that the indices measured in the present study were not dependent on endothelial microvessel function. Thus, in patients with HC, deficiency of precursor for NO formation does not seem to impair either maximal exercise capacity myocardial perfusion during maximal exercise, or maximal vasodilator capacity in skeletal muscle or skin.


Circulation. 2007 Jul 10;116(2):188-95. Epub 2007 Jun 25.
Wilson AM, Harada R, Nair N, Balasubramanian N, Cooke JP.
L-arginine supplementation in peripheral arterial disease: no benefit and possible harm.

BACKGROUND: L-arginine is the precursor of endothelium-derived nitric oxide, an endogenous vasodilator. L-arginine supplementation improves vascular reactivity and functional capacity in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) in small, short-term studies. We aimed to determine the effects of long-term administration of L-arginine on vascular reactivity and functional capacity in patients with PAD. METHODS AND RESULTS: The Nitric Oxide in Peripheral Arterial Insufficiency (NO-PAIN) study was a randomized clinical trial of oral L-arginine (3 g/d) versus placebo for 6 months in 133 subjects with intermittent claudication due to PAD in a single-center setting. The primary end point was the change at 6 months in the absolute claudication distance as assessed by the Skinner-Gardner treadmill protocol. L-arginine supplementation significantly increased plasma L-arginine levels. However, measures of nitric oxide availability (including flow-mediated vasodilation, vascular compliance, plasma and urinary nitrogen oxides, and plasma citrulline formation) were reduced or not improved compared with placebo. Although absolute claudication distance improved in both L-arginine- and placebo-treated patients, the improvement in the L-arginine-treated group was significantly less than that in the placebo group (28.3% versus 11.5%; P=0.024). CONCLUSIONS: In patients with PAD, long-term administration of L-arginine does not increase nitric oxide synthesis or improve vascular reactivity. Furthermore, the expected placebo effect observed in studies of functional capacity was attenuated in the L-arginine-treated group. As opposed to its short-term administration, long-term administration of L-arginine is not useful in patients with intermittent claudication and PAD.

 

[stopstalking]

I'd gladly get him some samples

shoot me some. change my mind about arginine ...please ?>

 

[poison]

Once again, iforce, all but one of those studies involve 3 days of supplementation. Everyone knows arginine needs around 3gr twice per day for at least a week to kick in, with full effects around the 2nd week. Even once daily for 2 consecutive weeks is far better than 3 days. Those studies are the equivalent of taking superdrol for 3 days and saying it doesn't work.

Look, I (and someone else here)posted studies in healthy, trained individuals that took supplementation.well past 3 days, and showed increased NO.

 

[capnsavem]

Once again, iforce, all but one of those studies involve 3 days of supplementation. Everyone knows arginine needs around 3gr twice per day for at least a week to kick in, with full effects around the 2nd week. Even once daily for 2 consecutive weeks is far better than 3 days. Those studies are the equivalent of taking superdrol for 3 days and saying it doesn't work.

Look, I (and someone else here)posted studies in healthy, trained individuals that took supplementation.well past 3 days, and showed increased NO.

i think one of the points being made by iForce (correct me if i'm stupid) is that arginine is in preWO formulas for most people, meaning most dont supp arginine stand alone... so the average joe wont take arg day after day, and 2 times a day.

and a preWO really can't be compared to superdrol for obvious differences in the way you would dose the two.. just borrowing from your example.

 

[capnsavem]

OMG... did i just respond to poison?....

oh crap. :buttkick::17::scared: