Why Such High Doses Of Test With TRT?

SelfMedic

Member
I'm sorry if this makes some of the long-time members want to pull out their hair with frustration.

But why are standard TRT doses so high?

Healthy, young males make less than 80 mg of test per week. And that's on the high end. Middle range seems to be under 50 mg / week.

I guess 100 mg of cyp or e per week yield 70 mg and that's about right to be on the high end of normal. Is this becoming more common? In another thread I mentioned that a clinic I was considering wanted to put me on 200 mg test c + hCG + AI right away. But I'm reading that this is a holdover from earlier thinking that was heavily influenced by AAS cycles. Dr Gordon and Dr Crisler talk of having patients on as little as 40 - 60 mg of test per week without any need for AI. Crisler recommends some hCG while Gordon doesn't. These doses really do make this REPLACEMENT therapy as opposed to performance/muscular enhancement.

Lastly, I'm guessing these protocols count the actual weight of the test and not the ester being used. Or does that not matter. So 80 mg per week of test c at a 200 mg/ml concentration would actually yield around 56 mg of actual test that week...right?

I'm sorry in advance if this is some annoying stuff. Maybe you all think these doctors are quacks or something.

Thanks for your reading, guys.
 
Not on trt nor considering it either but I think like u and I read a lot about the topic
 
SelfMedic said:
I'm sorry if this makes some of the long-time members want to pull out their hair with frustration.

But why are standard TRT doses so high?

Healthy, young males make less than 80 mg of test per week. And that's on the high end. Middle range seems to be under 50 mg / week.

I guess 100 mg of cyp or e per week yield 70 mg and that's about right to be on the high end of normal. Is this becoming more common? In another thread I mentioned that a clinic I was considering wanted to put me on 200 mg test c + hCG + AI right away. But I'm reading that this is a holdover from earlier thinking that was heavily influenced by AAS cycles. Dr Gordon and Dr Crisler talk of having patients on as little as 40 - 60 mg of test per week without any need for AI. Crisler recommends some hCG while Gordon doesn't. These doses really do make this REPLACEMENT therapy as opposed to performance/muscular enhancement.

Lastly, I'm guessing these protocols count the actual weight of the test and not the ester being used. Or does that not matter. So 80 mg per week of test c at a 200 mg/ml concentration would actually yield around 56 mg of actual test that week...right?

I'm sorry in advance if this is some annoying stuff. Maybe you all think these doctors are quacks or something.

Thanks for your reading, guys.
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many people fall into the more is more is more is more is better camp, for some this is true others require less.
everyone react differently to test and i myself have a protocol from Dr. Crysler, part of which is 95mg 2x a weeks, this keeps me feeling healthy and promotes optimal cbc/endo levels.
 
I haven't seen anyone on 40-60mg per week, that is pretty low. If you feel good and your numbers reflect good amounts of TT and FT then that will work for you. I think for most guys, that dose will be negligible for a therapeutic response. I would start guys out on 100mg per week in divided doses. Starting guys out at 200mg isn't ideal either IMO, that dose would take most men above supraphysiological levels of Test. I am personally running 125mg per week in divided doses and I am hanging out in the 800-1100 TT range and my FT is upper range.
 
Dr.C said:
I haven't seen anyone on 40-60mg per week, that is pretty low. If you feel good and your numbers reflect good amounts of TT and FT then that will work for you. I think for most guys, that dose will be negligible for a therapeutic response. I would start guys out on 100mg per week in divided doses. Starting guys out at 200mg isn't ideal either IMO, that dose would take most men above supraphysiological levels of Test. I am personally running 125mg per week in divided doses and I am hanging out in the 800-1100 TT range and my FT is upper range.
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Thanks, Dr.C.

FYI 125 Test Cyp yields 85 mg of actual test. On a weekly basis you are giving your body a bit more than the healthiest male in his hormonal prime makes (which is around 70 mg per week). I know it's not as simple as that, however, because age and other hormones are going to determine what a given amount of test will do to an individual.

My point is that a lot of people are using test-c and that means only 68% of the amount they inject is actually test. This niggle matters little at bodybuilding doses, but it's something TRT guys should probably keep in mind as we seek the top end of our youthful levels as opposed to chasing supraphysiology.

A man at the 'standard' starting TRT dose of 100 mg per week of test c is actually supplementing 68 mg of test per week. That is in line with the high end for young men. It's a good start, but it's also a good bet that some significant portion of men are designed to do plenty with even less test.

I also understand that even if I was producing 70 mg of test per week at my height (I will never know, but I sincerely doubt I was ever a 10 mg/day kind of guy), I may still be better off with 80-90 mg of test now at age 40 because my total hormonal profile is simply so different now than it was 20-25 years ago when I was 15-20.

All the same, I like this direction in TRT toward lower dosing. I'm not a bodybuilder who is willing to take a cocktail of drugs to go become a muscle cartoon. I just want to get my libido back to where it was when I was younger and continue to lift the weights I did at my best (300 bench, 400+ squat, 500+ deadlift, all raw at a tall-ish, "skinny" 198 :) ).
 
<---60 every 3.5 puts my peak at 900, trough is ~600. That's my sweet spot, took me over a year to figure that out. Early in the learning process my peaks were ~1100 and I felt like a.ss. Why guys want to be supraphysiological is beyond me...
 
halfahardon said:
Because you feel like Superman!
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Hahahahaha!

I wouldn't know firsthand, but I get the impression that there is a 'valley' between high normal and superman when it comes to dosing. There is a point after high normal where people feel like garbage because of the sides. But then when you do even higher doses and have your support protocols in place, you feel like a god.
 
SelfMedic said:
But then when you do even higher doses and have your support protocols in place, you feel like a god.
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I respectfully disagree. The "supports" bring their own, IMNHO, sides that are unnecessary. If you have your shyt dialed in, you don't need AI's or any of the other crap...

EDIT: I have a problem w guys that want to cycle, but call it trt. If you wanna do a cycle, do a f'ing cycle. But don't call it trt. It's the guys that are going to an "anti-aging" clinic that are on 300/week , AI's and hcg that give me the red a.ss.
 
napalm said:
I respectfully disagree. The "supports" bring their own, IMNHO, sides that are unnecessary. If you have your shyt dialed in, you don't need AI's or any of the other crap...

EDIT: I have a problem w guys that want to cycle, but call it trt. If you wanna do a cycle, do a f'ing cycle. But don't call it trt. It's the guys that are going to an "anti-aging" clinic that are on 300/week , AI's and hcg that give me the red a.ss.
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agreed 300/week pharma is a hefty cruise dose not trt
 
napalm said:
I respectfully disagree. The "supports" bring their own, IMNHO, sides that are unnecessary. If you have your shyt dialed in, you don't need AI's or any of the other crap...

EDIT: I have a problem w guys that want to cycle, but call it trt. If you wanna do a cycle, do a f'ing cycle. But don't call it trt. It's the guys that are going to an "anti-aging" clinic that are on 300/week , AI's and hcg that give me the red a.ss.
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I am really, really sorry if something in any of my posts suggests that I don't already think this. A cocktail of other drugs is something that I would want to avoid. I am, again, just looking to have the hormonal profile closer to my 20-year-old self than my 40-year-old self. You are talking to a guy who is looking for every reason to dose under 80 mg per week (not including the esters) and take hCG only if absolutely necessary.
 
napalm said:
I respectfully disagree. The "supports" bring their own, IMNHO, sides that are unnecessary. If you have your shyt dialed in, you don't need AI's or any of the other crap...

EDIT: I have a problem w guys that want to cycle, but call it trt. If you wanna do a cycle, do a f'ing cycle. But don't call it trt. It's the guys that are going to an "anti-aging" clinic that are on 300/week , AI's and hcg that give me the red a.ss.
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I agree with you in this except for one thing....I inject 100 mgs a week, split in two doses. My levels are mid-range and I still need an AI. I've tried everything to keep from taking one but it's just my body. Some guys are like that.
 
fwiw, my typical TRT dose is 125mg per week in divided doses.
I use 12.5mg of exemestane once or twice per week on this dose.
 
Gutterpump said:
I feel like superman on 700-1000mg test per week. I feel the same whether I'm on 125mg or 500mg of test.
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are you a automatizing god?

:EDIT: LOL, Aromatizing god?

my e2 stays at 19-23 when im in the 840 trough range
 
That_TRT_Guy said:
are you a automatizing god?

:EDIT: LOL, Aromatizing god?

my e2 stays at 19-23 when im in the 840 trough range
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I'm not godlike atm lol... currently just running 125mg.

I aromatize, but not as bad as I used to. I've leaned up somewhat though as well and am keeping my BF down year round. I'm guessing once I reach 10-11% BF, I'll barely need an AI.
 
SelfMedic said:
Thanks, Dr.C.

FYI 125 Test Cyp yields 85 mg of actual test. On a weekly basis you are giving your body a bit more than the healthiest male in his hormonal prime makes (which is around 70 mg per week). I know it's not as simple as that, however, because age and other hormones are going to determine what a given amount of test will do to an individual.

My point is that a lot of people are using test-c and that means only 68% of the amount they inject is actually test. This niggle matters little at bodybuilding doses, but it's something TRT guys should probably keep in mind as we seek the top end of our youthful levels as opposed to chasing supraphysiology.

A man at the 'standard' starting TRT dose of 100 mg per week of test c is actually supplementing 68 mg of test per week. That is in line with the high end for young men. It's a good start, but it's also a good bet that some significant portion of men are designed to do plenty with even less test.

I also understand that even if I was producing 70 mg of test per week at my height (I will never know, but I sincerely doubt I was ever a 10 mg/day kind of guy), I may still be better off with 80-90 mg of test now at age 40 because my total hormonal profile is simply so different now than it was 20-25 years ago when I was 15-20.

All the same, I like this direction in TRT toward lower dosing. I'm not a bodybuilder who is willing to take a cocktail of drugs to go become a muscle cartoon. I just want to get my libido back to where it was when I was younger and continue to lift the weights I did at my best (300 bench, 400+ squat, 500+ deadlift, all raw at a tall-ish, "skinny" 198 :) ).
Click to expand...

I'd say most guys feel the effects of higher testosterone starting at 700 TT with adequate free test and estrogen in a good range. Some guys don't feel it until 900 ish, but everyone is different. If you feel great at 1100 and your other numbers look good, I don't see a problem hanging "up there." If you start to go higher, most likely other numbers are going to start to go south such as estrogens, H&H etc which are going to be harder to manage as your TT numbers creep up. Its all about finding that sweet spot and that can take a half of year or even up to a year to get dialed in.
 
I agree with Dr. C. It's a timely process trying to dial in the dose that works for you, but in my experience, as others said it's different. I feel great at 200mg but I arom high it's just how my body reacts to it. Below 200 I just felt like I was dragging ass. I am on real trt my cyp comes in the mail from express scripts Pfizer brand, I also have to anastrozole. It's been great though for me, with Low T my cholesterol was horrid and I was losing bone density. It's been a few years on it now and my hdl and ldl are in good positions and without using any other meds or gear my bone density is normal again. I never had a libido issue what calling card to low t was low drive and extreme fatigue.
I will say the side I have with my trt dose is my rbc/hemocrit raises extremely fast I have to donate blood to United every 2 months. Outside of that no other issues.
 
SonnyAz said:
I agree with Dr. C. It's a timely process trying to dial in the dose that works for you, but in my experience, as others said it's different. I feel great at 200mg but I arom high it's just how my body reacts to it. Below 200 I just felt like I was dragging ass. I am on real trt my cyp comes in the mail from express scripts Pfizer brand, I also have to anastrozole. It's been great though for me, with Low T my cholesterol was horrid and I was losing bone density. It's been a few years on it now and my hdl and ldl are in good positions and without using any other meds or gear my bone density is normal again. I never had a libido issue what calling card to low t was low drive and extreme fatigue.
I will say the side I have with my trt dose is my rbc/hemocrit raises extremely fast I have to donate blood to United every 2 months. Outside of that no other issues.
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Just curious....how old are you and what are your free T, TT and E2 levels with 200mgs? I'm assuming that's 200mgs a week?
 
SelfMedic said:
I also understand that even if I was producing 70 mg of test per week at my height (I will never know, but I sincerely doubt I was ever a 10 mg/day kind of guy), I may still be better off with 80-90 mg of test now at age 40 because my total hormonal profile is simply so different now than it was 20-25 years ago when I was 15-20.
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The bolded is the important part. Your body produced 8-10mg a day, at night while you slept. With injecting test once a week, you start at a higher level, but day before injection you're at a lower level than that, significantly. So if you shoot to end the week close to 9mg a day, you'd have to inject over 0.6ml of 200mg/ml (yielding lets say 80) to have the day before injection still have you over the equivalent of 6mg for the day
 
sammpedd88 said:
Just curious....how old are you and what are your free T, TT and E2 levels with 200mgs? I'm assuming that's 200mgs a week?
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33 will be 34 soon. I inject e3.5d my high is 1167 tt prior to a shot I'm at 850-920
Free last check up was 21.3. My E2 prior to the anastrozole was 51.2 just high enough to make my left nipple hurt. With anastrozole I sit between 18-21.
I was diagnosed with Delayed onset hypogonadism. Prior to getting on trt I was at 174tt as natural production and 4.15 free.
 
SonnyAz said:
33 will be 34 soon. I inject e3.5d my high is 1167 tt prior to a shot I'm at 850-920
Free last check up was 21.3. My E2 prior to the anastrozole was 51.2 just high enough to make my left nipple hurt. With anastrozole I sit between 18-21.
I was diagnosed with Delayed onset hypogonadism. Prior to getting on trt I was at 174tt as natural production and 4.15 free.
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Have you thought about lowering your dose a little to control your E2? No matter my dose I have to have an AI. Wish I didn't need one. Tried everything under the sun to lower it without one.
 
Yea I've bounced between 100 to 200 on my dose my over all well being is more noticeable at 200mg. I need anastrozole on anything above 140 a week.
 
SonnyAz said:
Yea I've bounced between 100 to 200 on my dose my over all well being is more noticeable at 200mg. I need anastrozole on anything above 140 a week.
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I'm 43 and there's no way I could pin that much. It's crazy how different each individual is as far as protocols are concerned.
 
EasyEJL said:
The bolded is the important part. Your body produced 8-10mg a day, at night while you slept. With injecting test once a week, you start at a higher level, but day before injection you're at a lower level than that, significantly. So if you shoot to end the week close to 9mg a day, you'd have to inject over 0.6ml of 200mg/ml (yielding lets say 80) to have the day before injection still have you over the equivalent of 6mg for the day
Click to expand...

I know a lot of men on this site may not see any benefit to more frequent pinning, but it makes a lot sense to me to pin EOD as a compromise between ED and E3.5D or E3D. This is because even ED at 10 is still a bit of a spike and EOD is twice that spike. Once a week obviously works just fine for some people, but I've just noticed the sentiment going toward more frequency. The science says the getting away from spikes and closer to lower, more frequent dosing ( up to 10 mg spread out over 24 hours being the most optimal) is better than a 70mg-spike (of actual test minus cypionate ester mass) that then dwindles over seven days.

The estradiol problems, the aromitization problems all seem to diminish when the spikes are smoothed out to resemble natural production. 70 mg (of actual test, minus the cyp ester weight) divided into EOD seem to do a lot more with lower sides than 70 mg EW.

So when I see guys saying they need 200 mg of test-c per week, I wonder if they would get better results if they just did 15 mg of test-c per day (10 mg of actual test). More with less. Yes, that's a hard pinning schedule. But it's worth thinking about.
 
SelfMedic said:
I know a lot of men on this site may not see any benefit to more frequent pinning, but it makes a lot sense to me to pin EOD as a compromise between ED and E3.5D or E3D. This is because even ED at 10 is still a bit of a spike and EOD is twice that spike. Once a week obviously works just fine for some people, but I've just noticed the sentiment going toward more frequency. The science says the getting away from spikes and closer to lower, more frequent dosing ( up to 10 mg spread out over 24 hours being the most optimal) is better than a 70mg-spike (of actual test minus cypionate ester mass) that then dwindles over seven days.

The estradiol problems, the aromitization problems all seem to diminish when the spikes are smoothed out to resemble natural production. 70 mg (of actual test, minus the cyp ester weight) divided into EOD seem to do a lot more with lower sides than 70 mg EW.

So when I see guys saying they need 200 mg of test-c per week, I wonder if they would get better results if they just did 15 mg of test-c per day (10 mg of actual test). More with less. Yes, that's a hard pinning schedule. But it's worth thinking about.
Click to expand...

How long have you been on TRT?
 
SelfMedic said:
I know a lot of men on this site may not see any benefit to more frequent pinning, but it makes a lot sense to me to pin EOD as a compromise between ED and E3.5D or E3D. This is because even ED at 10 is still a bit of a spike and EOD is twice that spike. Once a week obviously works just fine for some people, but I've just noticed the sentiment going toward more frequency. The science says the getting away from spikes and closer to lower, more frequent dosing ( up to 10 mg spread out over 24 hours being the most optimal) is better than a 70mg-spike (of actual test minus cypionate ester mass) that then dwindles over seven days.

The estradiol problems, the aromitization problems all seem to diminish when the spikes are smoothed out to resemble natural production. 70 mg (of actual test, minus the cyp ester weight) divided into EOD seem to do a lot more with lower sides than 70 mg EW.

So when I see guys saying they need 200 mg of test-c per week, I wonder if they would get better results if they just did 15 mg of test-c per day (10 mg of actual test). More with less. Yes, that's a hard pinning schedule. But it's worth thinking about.
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The problems you run into are loss in the needle (it may just be 0.5ml but adds up), localized scarring, and inconvenience
 
EasyEJL said:
The problems you run into are loss in the needle (it may just be 0.5ml but adds up), localized scarring, and inconvenience
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I so agree with that. Maybe sub-q injections wouldn't be as bad as far as scaring but sub-q doesn't work for everyone from what I've read.
 
EasyEJL said:
And subq is difficult. Any oil only test (not etyl oleate) is a pain to get through even a 27ga
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Sub-q with slin pins is difficult if running a cycle, but for the tiny amounts needed for TRT? It's very easy.

I run 125mg/test weekly. This means 0.25 CC twice a week. It takes me 30 seconds or less to draw up 0.25cc in a slin pin. It takes me ten seconds to inject.
 
I dunno man, only takes me 20-30 seconds to pull 0.25cc lol.. literally 10 seconds to inject.

If you need to pull more oil, don't use slin pins. I use 25g pins when pushing 1-3CC, but that's not TRT.
 
Gutterpump said:
I dunno man, only takes me 20-30 seconds to pull 0.25cc lol.. literally 10 seconds to inject.

If you need to pull more oil, don't use slin pins. I use 25g pins when pushing 1-3CC, but that's not TRT.
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just messing with you mate, takes me about the same time with a 25g, but its cold outside
 
That_TRT_Guy said:
just messing with you mate, takes me about the same time with a 25g, but its cold outside
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That still doesn't seem right though. It takes you 20-30s to pull 0.25 cc with a 25g pin? I can pull 1 full CC in about 5-10s if using 25g pins to draw. I usually draw with 18g pins though and switch to 25g when using over a CC.
 
Gutterpump said:
That still doesn't seem right though. It takes you 20-30s to pull 0.25 cc with a 25g pin? I can pull 1 full CC in about 5-10s if using 25g pins to draw. I usually draw with 18g pins though and switch to 25g when using over a CC.
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20+ seconds to pull .45cc with a 25g

its cold where i am, and my depot test is quite thick
 
Gutterpump said:
20g is like a harpoon thooo
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my first shot at my OG provider was going to be with a 1.5" 18g in the quad!!! i saw that sucker and told the doc i would never use that...so he said okay, you can do you shots at home (that was easy)
 
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