The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log
- Thread starter MrKleen73
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MrKleen73
Legend
Yes these are fine. As far as nutrient timing, the most important thing to know is for better GH production keep fats and carbs at least 60-90 minutes from when you plan to fall asleep. You can get away with faster digesting carbs a little closer but fats and carbs are best kept far enough away from going to sleep that they do not blunt your natural GH response. Typically and hour is plenty unless you have a really high fat content.
That is really about the only macro based recommendation I can think of other than meeting your macros for the day. Otherwise biggest meal post workout if possible.
I also like incorporating a little bit of CBL sometimes which is nice, I will save up carbs all day then have a bunch with my last meal. I typically will do a metabolic workout or push ups and body weight squats before hand to get the exercise induced Glut4 translocation going that you need with CBL then rock it out.
Also keep in mind guys anyone trying CBL should NOT be using a GDA. It completely defeats the purpose of CBL. The idea is to get the exercise induced Glut4 translocation kicked up so that the muscle is highly sensitive to the blood sugar but the fats cells are not. When you use a GDA yes the muscle soaks up more glycogen but the increases sensitivity in the fat cell also leads to more chance of fat storage. You should be relying on the exercise induced Glut4 translocation for nutrient shuttling into the muscle instead of a GDA shuttling into both fat and muscle. There is one GDA that works on the same lines as exercise induced Glut4 translocation and that is Berberine, it ONLY effects the GLUT4 translocation in the muscle and not the fat cell so it would be about the only option.
The Solution
Legend
Yup!
Jack3d before your workout
alphamine between your meals during the fasting window
i would not combine both due to both having stimulants which may overpower the individual.
machwon04
Member
Thanks! 2 questions:
What is GDA?
Do I need to be mindful of fat consumption in my first meal after workout? I had always read that fats should be kept to little to none in your pwo meal. I like to have a little bit of natty pb with a banana as my "dessert" in my first meal. I love me some PB!
What is GDA?
Do I need to be mindful of fat consumption in my first meal after workout? I had always read that fats should be kept to little to none in your pwo meal. I like to have a little bit of natty pb with a banana as my "dessert" in my first meal. I love me some PB!
machwon04
Member
Got it, thanks! I've only been mixing about 1/3 scoop of alphamine and 3/4 scoop of Jack3d. Stims tend not to affect me all that much. I can fall asleep halfway through a Monster haha. I only drink coffee in the morning b/c I've grown to like the taste and because it's hot. The heat wakes me up more than anything.
The Solution
Legend
When is the last time you cycled your stims? im going to guess never....
and your drinking coffee or energy drinks on top of stims? Dude that is a BIG no no...
Captn_the
Banned
...and a CBL???
The Solution
Legend
Carb Back Load.. Google it.
Captn_the
Banned
Yes understood didn't recognise the acronym. Thanks.
machwon04
Member
Is that something like Pslin?
machwon04
Member
Well I don't drink Monsters regularly or anything. Maybe once/twice a month now. Mostly during road trips. I also only have about a cup and a half of coffee/day.
When you say cycle, do you mean forgo ALL caffeine: tea, coffee etc as well?
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes PSlin is a GDA. GDA's are awesome but just don't apply well to Carb Back Loading since it negates the reason why no fat is stored even from fatty sugary sources. That reason being that you are less insulin sensitive in the evening. Working out makes the muscles hungry without increasing insulin sensitivity in the fat cells.
machwon04
Member
MrKleen - After reading a little bit on the CBL, I have a few questions regarding lean gains, timing and off days. So, I'm limited to working out around 11am (worst time according to CBL). Would it be best to consume a bunch of high GI or low GI carbs in my first meal around 12:30? Should I have high or low GI carbs in my last meal of the evening? It sounds like CBL is based around high GI because you want them gone out of your system before bed. I would think the same would apply even in lean gains.
On non-workout days, with lean gains, would it be beneficial to avoid carbs all together? Direct sources anyway. I've been on LG for a good 5-6 weeks now, and haven't noticed a whole lot as far as body composition goes. My fast window is between 9 and 12:30 consistently, and often closer to from 8 or 830 to 1230. My usual post workout meal is 8 oz baked chicken from Treebeards, along with their red beans and rice and green beans. Then I'll have a few crackers and maybe a slice of french bread, followed by a shake with about 50g protein and 15g of a high and low gi carb mix. I follow this up with a banana and natty pb. My midsection doesn't seem to be getting any leaner.
On non-workout days, with lean gains, would it be beneficial to avoid carbs all together? Direct sources anyway. I've been on LG for a good 5-6 weeks now, and haven't noticed a whole lot as far as body composition goes. My fast window is between 9 and 12:30 consistently, and often closer to from 8 or 830 to 1230. My usual post workout meal is 8 oz baked chicken from Treebeards, along with their red beans and rice and green beans. Then I'll have a few crackers and maybe a slice of french bread, followed by a shake with about 50g protein and 15g of a high and low gi carb mix. I follow this up with a banana and natty pb. My midsection doesn't seem to be getting any leaner.
machwon04
Member
Is something like Pslin recommended for Lean Gains?
The Solution
Legend
yes. meaning taking time off of stimulants. there is a law of diminishing returns to taking stims, you need to take time off you cant just keep taking them ove rand over and over
thats like saying you will run a test booster for 3 years straight ... it wont work
MrKleen73
Legend
Well with CBL if you workout in the mornings he recommends Isolate protein and fast burning fats like MCT oils or EVCO post workout to achieve an insulin reaction without introducing any carbs. This keeps you muscles starved for carbs but gives them substrate to begin repairing the tissue. Similar to the aminos post workout with fasted training on LG, it does not negatively effect the process for the carb refeed meal in the evening. Keep in mind although your muscle will be starving without a workout near the carb back load it is not going to be as effective. So best bet is to do a quick 5-10 minute body weight circuit or something prior to starting your feeding. Also another way he describes using it is on your off days, you save your carbs up until the end of the day and have a meal. So on off days I would save up my 100-150g of carbs until the evening and have them with dinner so I would still have some of the glycogen for the next days lift.
MrKleen73
Legend
It doesn't hurt at all. Basically though your insulin levels are pretty controlled from the fasting so that first meal you are already pretty insulin sensitive. I have used them on and off and I think they help some but if money is an issue I really think it could be spent elsewhere since you are already priming insulin response with the fasting.
machwon04
Member
I guess I'm confused on this part. Are you referring only to off days here? Because at the moment, I am eating carbs in my first meal after my 11am workout - so 30 minutes after I'm done working out. I've been eating both high and low GI carbs in this meal.
With the "high GI in the evening" principle of CBL in mind, would this also apply to Lean Gains, or is this too far beyond my workout at this point? Maybe do some sprints in the backyard, jumping jacks/bodyweight squat supersets, jump rope before my last meal of the day if I include carbs, or just not worry about it? There has to be something I'm doing wrong to not notice the leaning out that everyone else has, especially when I'm eating right at maintenance on most days, even a lot of my workout days.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes you can do CBL in your situation with the modifications I put in the post. You would train, then your post workout meal would be whey isolate and some MCT Oil or Coconut Oil. To get the most out of your load if not lifting directly before it then you would want to do some sort of body weight stuff to get the muscles primed for the carbs even more. That would apply to a lift day or an off day since you do not lift in the afternoon you will do better to do say 100 push ups and 100 body weight squats, or 100 burpees then have your carb meal. One of the higher echelon of nutrition guys actually recommends 50-100 push ups before every carb meal. I can't remember his name right off the top of my head right now but it is just good practice to increase muscular insulin sensitivity.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes you can do CBL in your situation with the modifications I put in the post. You would train, then your post workout meal would be whey isolate and some MCT Oil or Coconut Oil. To get the most out of your load if not lifting directly before it then you would want to do some sort of body weight stuff to get the muscles primed for the carbs even more. That would apply to a lift day or an off day since you do not lift in the afternoon you will do better to do say 100 push ups and 100 body weight squats, or 100 burpees then have your carb meal. One of the higher echelon of nutrition guys actually recommends 50-100 push ups before every carb meal. I can't remember his name right off the top of my head right now but it is just good practice to increase muscular insulin sensitivity.
machwon04
Member
So last night (my off day) I did 4 sets each of 60 jump ropes/15 rep bodyweight squats/sets of 15 db curls with 35's - done back to back with a short rest between each set (60 seconds or so). Would this be enough to justify the CBL meal? My first meal of the day was 2 hamburger patties w/ swiss cheese and a spinach salad with grilled chicken and a protein shake. My second (and last) meal was the meal following this short exercise session.
machwon04
Member
Also, if I'm doing lean gains, and fasting for 15-16 hours, is there a reason I should avoid a high number of high-gi carbs in my first meal, beginning 30 min after my workout? I feel like the same principle of CBL would apply, in that you're replenishing glycogen, the glut4 response, etc. Just consume ALL of direct carb sources for the day in this meal, and then have a mostly pro/fat meal in the evening for the remainder of my calories, 3-4 hours before bed time. Is there a reason (scientific or otherwise) that this wouldn't have similar benefits?
The Solution
Legend
You don't need high GI carbs period
Your bit an endurance athlete nor training to be one and you are not 24+ hours fasted as all studies show
You can have a small amount in your first meal but a protein and fat meal is fine
Your over thinking something so simple .
Do what suits you it is meant to be a lifestyle diet
machwon04
Member
I definitely know I'm overthinking it, as I do with a lot of things. I'm just trying to figure out where I'm going wrong if so many people are seeing such drastic results so quickly, and I've yet to see a noticeable difference in fatloss, when I know for sure I'm not eating too much. I follow Wendler's 5/3/1 and generally work up to a a single heavy set (like his joker sets) on upper body days and then do sets of higher reps on leg days following my last required set of the workout. I don't think my training is lacking, to say the least.
MrKleen73
Legend
Definitely overthinking it. First off decide what your plan is. If you feel like you are not making IF work for you then my suggestion would be to make it work for you first before worrying too much about extra modifications. If you are not leaning up as much as you would like then I suggest you either lower cals a little bit or increase activity. If you are following the 20 under / 20 over for recomp then perhaps try 20 under / 10 over maintenance instead. This way you gear it a little more toward leaning out. For you it simply sounds like you estimated the calories you needed to meet your goals a little on the high side so adjust it there. That or simply drop 300 from what you are considering maintenance then do the 20 under / 20 over from there. Keep it simple, doesn't have to be a crazy detailed modification.
Sure there are some hormonal things that can benefit fat burning with IF but in all honestly it is not magic, the same rules still apply of calories out versus calories in. Typically this is looked at as an average throughout the week with LG. So if you are a little high on calories simply lower your starting point a little and go from there. As far as your workouts if you wan't them to play well into the goal of leaning up add more volume and shorten rest periods at least on your accessories.
The Solution
Legend
Cycling 20
Over and under won't matter total kcals does you don't need to cycle carbs and fats it's just an outline some people keep kcals the same
What matters is total kcals over the 7 week period I only drop 20g if carbs on non workout days and keep protein and fat the same
Works just fine when I cut I keep pro and fat the same just slowly lower my carbs and I lose weight calories in vs out
It's jot your training it's your diet and cardio why you are not losing OP
Captn_the
Banned
CBL - do you put a ceiling on the amount of carbs in this meal?
100g of CHO from either sweet potato or rice is a significant amount of food to eat.
If say you're CHO for the day was 150-175g you'd be struggling to eat it, and I can't see it being healthy to do so.
Am I missing something here?
100g of CHO from either sweet potato or rice is a significant amount of food to eat.
If say you're CHO for the day was 150-175g you'd be struggling to eat it, and I can't see it being healthy to do so.
Am I missing something here?
The Solution
Legend
100g of carbs from SP a struggle to eat? Top with cinnamon and splenda and its a breeze or top with some honey,
The Solution
Legend
100g of carbs from SP a struggle to eat? Top with cinnamon and splenda and its a breeze or top with some honey,
carpee
Well-known member
was gonna say, 100g from sweet potato sounds delicious!
MrKleen73
Legend
Well most of CBL practitioners use carbohydrate dense foods during the carb meals and they are actually quite a bit larger than 100g on a day you train. There is a formula they use where you cut out all carbs for a week or two and weigh yourself before and after depleting then they multiply the weight you lost by some number and it tells you a place to start with your carb meals. Typically these are over 350-400 grams of carbs, however it is not 1 meal so much as the period after you train and before you go to bed.
CBL uses things like Pop Tarts, Ice Cream, pastries, breads, cereals, not just clean sources to achieve these high numbers of carb intake. Certainly "dirty" carbs are not required for CBL but eating it all clean would make for being uncomfortable. Plus remember at that point you have low insulin sensitivity in the fat and high sensitivity in the muscle so fat storage is going to be minimal if at all even with the dirty choices. I think a good mix is probably best though.
CBL and IF do not go hand in hand but you can use them together so don't get hung up on the CBL stuff unless it is something you want to try. The CBL and the LG use a lot of similar insulin control mechanisms, and can be used together quite effectively and easily. I prefer on my off days when I keep my carbs lower to have them all in the evening. So I will kind of follow the CBL format on those days. I don't IF every day anymore, mostly on what I call my burn days which are lower carb and calories so I can still have bigger meals on that day.
The Solution, Yeah I know the 20 over and under is not for everyone and some people have the same amount of calories a day. I like to toggle it myself. The idea of working and eating toward a specific goal each day seems more efficient to me. Could be completely in my head but it works well with my mindset so it is all groovy. I actually like to lengthen my fasts on days I label as Burn days and have more of a 3-4 hour feeding window kind of like with the Warrior but not eating up until the feeding window. There are so many ways to live this lifestyle it is ridiculous. I have done extremely well off of several different methods of IF and kind of manipulate them now depending on my goal or situation. I actually found I do really well with almost an ADF type of fasting, getting in about 900-1200 in an evening meal on an off day then having oh say 3000-3200 calories in 4-5 regular meals the next day starting after my morning workout. I lean up without cardio, & still gain muscle doing that. Again we end up looking at average calories over a week or so being the factor moreso than the daily counts.
CBL uses things like Pop Tarts, Ice Cream, pastries, breads, cereals, not just clean sources to achieve these high numbers of carb intake. Certainly "dirty" carbs are not required for CBL but eating it all clean would make for being uncomfortable. Plus remember at that point you have low insulin sensitivity in the fat and high sensitivity in the muscle so fat storage is going to be minimal if at all even with the dirty choices. I think a good mix is probably best though.
CBL and IF do not go hand in hand but you can use them together so don't get hung up on the CBL stuff unless it is something you want to try. The CBL and the LG use a lot of similar insulin control mechanisms, and can be used together quite effectively and easily. I prefer on my off days when I keep my carbs lower to have them all in the evening. So I will kind of follow the CBL format on those days. I don't IF every day anymore, mostly on what I call my burn days which are lower carb and calories so I can still have bigger meals on that day.
The Solution, Yeah I know the 20 over and under is not for everyone and some people have the same amount of calories a day. I like to toggle it myself. The idea of working and eating toward a specific goal each day seems more efficient to me. Could be completely in my head but it works well with my mindset so it is all groovy. I actually like to lengthen my fasts on days I label as Burn days and have more of a 3-4 hour feeding window kind of like with the Warrior but not eating up until the feeding window. There are so many ways to live this lifestyle it is ridiculous. I have done extremely well off of several different methods of IF and kind of manipulate them now depending on my goal or situation. I actually found I do really well with almost an ADF type of fasting, getting in about 900-1200 in an evening meal on an off day then having oh say 3000-3200 calories in 4-5 regular meals the next day starting after my morning workout. I lean up without cardio, & still gain muscle doing that. Again we end up looking at average calories over a week or so being the factor moreso than the daily counts.
The Solution
Legend
What?
yes it does
Pre-workout meal or first meal P+F Based, then load the carbs as you go on in your window (next 2-3 meals)
WOrks perfectly fine
been doing it well over a year......
Johnston
Active member
I think the confusion for many people comes with certain contradictions, such as the LG/IF approach of keeping calories under 50 for the 16 hour fast period, and the CBL approach of having a calorie dense coffee/MCT/cream/butter concoction in the AM (and it's OK with more than one of these), during your 'fasting period', when this drink will surely break the fast given its calorie load. I never quite got this aspect of it personally, despite Kiefer's justification for it. If you're doing this you're not doing Intermittent Fasting, so might as well just eat food if you ask me. Not that this approach won't work, I'm sure it will for some. As The Solution says neither CBL or LG is a magic bullet... just have to find what works for you.
MrKleen73
Legend
I know I have been talking about how I used them together for the past 2 pages. The second sentence of that quoted section says "The CBL and the LG use a lot of similar insulin control mechanisms, and can be used together quite effectively and easily."
I think you misunderstood me saying they don't go "Hand in Hand" as in saying they do not compliment each other. That is not the case. What I meant by Hand in Hand is that they are not married to one another. They are completely separate eating methodologies and were not designed to be done together. However I went on to say that they complimented each other well and was an easy modification to apply CBL within the 8 hour feeding window. I even explained what the best case scenario for doing it with fasted morning training was per his videos regarding the subject.
MrKleen73
Legend
I think the confusion for many people comes with certain contradictions, such as the LG/IF approach of keeping calories under 50 for the 16 hour fast period, and the CBL approach of having a calorie dense coffee/MCT/cream/butter concoction in the AM (and it's OK with more than one of these), during your 'fasting period', when this drink will surely break the fast given its calorie load. I never quite got this aspect of it personally, despite Kiefer's justification for it. If you're doing this you're not doing Intermittent Fasting, so might as well just eat food if you ask me. Not that this approach won't work, I'm sure it will for some. As The Solution says neither CBL or LG is a magic bullet... just have to find what works for you.
Exactly and that was why I was mentioning they did not go hand in hand, as in not written to be done together. CBL is NOT a fasting protocol at all. However CBL can be implemented easily within the 8 hour window. YOu simply continue fasting until time to break the fast then have a protein and fat meal. Then have carbs with your last meal or two preferably after a workout. If you do it fasted training in the AM then do the same thing you normally do on LG and take aminos pre, post and every 2 hours until you break your fast.
One of the guys was talking about working out around 11:00 being fasted so I reminded him he would want to use Isolate and MCT oil post workout for the best recovery then later before his big carb meal do some calisthenics to get his muscle hungry for the feeding. The isolate and MCT is supposedly going to give the best insulin response without actually introducing carbs. That way you get shuttling into the muscle but leave the glycogen stores empty and craving carbs. All of that talk could have also been confused for me saying eat in the morning.
HokiePride
Well-known member
Awesome info!
The Solution
Legend
Not a problem at all with early morning training, your glycogen reserves will be full from the day before and compliment that training very well, and works well if you train later at night refueling what you lost
Either way ANY Diet works.. IF is nto magical. its just a lifestyle.
The Solution
Legend
Anyone can. again IF is not magical. Just apply CKD to around your workout.. simple.
MrKleen73
Legend
Precisely what The Solution says, you can pretty much do any macros inside of the 8 hour feeding window. You can do the over / under with calories, or do the same cals every single day. As much information as you can find for ways to do it the only "thing" you have to be doing to be doing LG is fasting for 16 hours a day and feeding for 8. EVERYTHING ELSE, as in all the options you can put into a diet regarding macros, calories, or nutrient timing are quite modifiable without changing the fact you are doing the Lean Gains Protocol due to simply sticking with the 16 hr fasting & 8 hr feeding window.
That being said, Martin states he sees absolutely no reason for anyone to go totally low carb, or CKD. However he does recommend for those who feel they are carb intolerant to lower carbs on off or rest days. This ends up being a form of Carb cycling although not actually CKD.
bla55
Well-known member
Yep, I'm carb intolerant and cycle pretty much like this;
I up the carbs on workout days (about 150g of carbs right after my workout) and then keep it under 30g on the rest day. I also workout heavy and often enough where I feel like I have utilized a good portion of the glycogen storage when doing so, and try to regulate insulin spikes for just after exercise.
The Solution
Legend
You realize Insulin spikes when you eat a protein source alone right?
MrKleen73
Legend
Most people don't realize that at all. Basically a big steak and a cup of oats produce the same amount of insulin. The difference is that glucagon is also produced with the meat only meal. Glucagon is an insulin antagonists, and it kind of lowers the effects that the insulin has on GLUT4 translocation. So even though there is insulin with the meat only, it is mostly being counteracted by the glucagon, and not causing any insulin sensitivity issues for later in the day or the following day.
Paramount
New member
If i fast for 18 hours, would drinking an ACC (CBL sytle, 10g whey+10g MCT/coconut oil) after 16 hours be a good idea? To raise mtor again?
I train after 17 hours and do Cardio after 17 hours on off days. So would the ACC maybe help me to preserve muscle and burn more fat during fastet workout/cardio?
I train after 17 hours and do Cardio after 17 hours on off days. So would the ACC maybe help me to preserve muscle and burn more fat during fastet workout/cardio?
The Solution
Legend
Why not eat a whole food meal?
MrKleen73
Legend
If you are breaking your fast after the workout don't sweat the minutia of it. I mean you definitely could do that but then you are not working out fasted. 10g of MCT Oil is 90 calories by itself. If not officially breaking the fast then just go with the aminos pre-workout they will keep cortisol levels lower. Plus a little cortisol is fine, the body knows when it has been in a catabolic state and will super compensate for that when given the fuel to do so. The key is not doing more damage than you can repair by having cortisol run rampant. Also a method of cortisol control would be say a gram of Vit C before the workout.
The Solution
Legend
Exactly, just take some BCAA's prior to your workout
HokiePride
Well-known member
How long before seeing results?