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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

bakerwil said:
1) Should I take any BCAA before/after? Yes (running / jogging is pretty intense. No, if walking, light bike riding etc..
2) HIIT or non-HIIT? Preferably HIIT, but with running you may notice that much of a difference in the beginning. When the results slow, bring on the HIIT for sure.
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You don't need bcaas for LISS cardio whatsoever. As long as the duration is <40 minutes you don't need it if your doing LISS.
If your doing HIIT treat it as a training session (ie. Bcaas before and every hour before you break your fast)

If people would just read 10 pages of this thread these questions have been answered multiple, multiple times.
 
jswain34 said:
You don't need bcaas for LISS cardio whatsoever. As long as the duration is <40 minutes you don't need it if your doing LISS.
If your doing HIIT treat it as a training session (ie. Bcaas before and every hour before you break your fast)

If people would just read 10 pages of this thread these questions have been answered multiple, multiple times.
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I answered his question with the same basic response as yours, but thanks for chiming in...
 
bakerwil said:
I answered his question with the same basic response as yours, but thanks for chiming in...
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I wasn't coming at you man. I should've highlighted his post instead to avoid the confusion.. But you did say that you needed bcaas for jogging which I don't really agree with. Its unneedingly tampering the fast for a limited time.
 
Depends on your fitness level too...

Jogging for me is absolutely draining. I can't handle 40 minutes of jogging. Some friends of mine do jogging like its their job. I can bike my legs off though on the other hand.

It's going to differ based on the person.
 
So just because you feel drained means there is a need for BCAAs? I mean I'm the same way as far as bike/jog and I'm not saying that u have to run 40 minutes. I've rarely jogged 40 minutes straight and the times I have is cuz I got in trouble in sports practices, etc. I just thought the intensity of the exercise determined the energy system mainly tapped into and that was the need for BCAAs.
 
jswain34 said:
So just because you feel drained means there is a need for BCAAs? I mean I'm the same way as far as bike/jog and I'm not saying that u have to run 40 minutes. I've rarely jogged 40 minutes straight and the times I have is cuz I got in trouble in sports practices, etc. I just thought the intensity of the exercise determined the energy system mainly tapped into and that was the need for BCAAs.
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Jogging for some people may not raise their heart rate beyond say 120bpm; however, for others it's at 150 -160bpm. Their are allot of factors. I believe a taxing workout should include BCAA's (HITT or not). From years of training, I know I retain more muscle while dieting (IF or not) when I include BCA's under high intensity effort training situations. Whatever works for the individual in the long run.
 
jswain34 said:
So just because you feel drained means there is a need for BCAAs? I mean I'm the same way as far as bike/jog and I'm not saying that u have to run 40 minutes. I've rarely jogged 40 minutes straight and the times I have is cuz I got in trouble in sports practices, etc. I just thought the intensity of the exercise determined the energy system mainly tapped into and that was the need for BCAAs.
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I'm saying that what can be an anaerobic exercise for you can be an aerobic exercise for others so the protocol may change.
 
bla55 said:
I'm saying that what can be an anaerobic exercise for you can be an aerobic exercise for others so the protocol may change.
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Got it. I know you know what your talking about so I just wanted to make sure everything was squared away. I guess just use bcaas whenever you want. But if someone doesn't follow Martins protocol and they are not getting the results they expected, they can't go blaming the protocol since they were deviating it.

I personally would rather try what the originator did for a while and see what results I can achieve in that manner and then start switching things up to how I see fit.
 
I guess it's a little bit of a toss up too, because for leangains they would recommend some bcaas, while carb backloading for instance says no to BCAAs as they might trigger an insulin response.

I usually go for aerobic only, light work, low heart rate when I'm working out fasting, and continue without eating until later, no BCAAs. But it's just what I've learned from observing myself really too.
 
A little cream isn't going to hurt. Just make sure its less than 50 calories worth. leangains.com clearly addresses this multiple times. Your fine with creamer, your fine with any liquid under 50 calories.
 
Great. What about using Alphamine while fasted? I wake up 5:30-5:45 every morning and just started working out around 11am instead of after work at 7 or 8, then eating my first meal of the day after workout, starting between 12 and 12:15. If I wanted to incorporate Alphamine with a little BCAAs, when would you guys take it with my schedule?

My goal is to gain lean mass at the moment, but more emphasis on leaning out the midsection than gaining all over muscle. I have a fairly decent strength base for my build.

First day of IF and fasted mid-morning lifting by the way, and I think this is the right routine for me! Had a huge meal after (~800 - 900 calories - hard to do when it's not crap food) and it feels great to know that it's not a bad thing!
 
machwon04 said:
Great. What about using Alphamine while fasted? I wake up 5:30-5:45 every morning and just started working out around 11am instead of after work at 7 or 8, then eating my first meal of the day after workout, starting between 12 and 12:15. If I wanted to incorporate Alphamine with a little BCAAs, when would you guys take it with my schedule?
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-if you wake up at 530 have 1 scoop alphamine upon waking then another scoop as your pre workout with your bcaas. Eat at 12, have another scoop of alphamine 2 hours after you stop eating, wait 2 hours and resume your eating. That's how I dosed my alphamine when I ran it.

"First day of IF and fasted mid-morning lifting by the way, and I think this is the right routine for me! Had a huge meal after (~800 - 900 calories - hard to do when it's not crap food) and it feels great to know that it's not a bad thing!"

-your post workout meal should contain 40%-50% of your daily intake which would only put you at roughly 2000 cals. Make sure your diet is in line with your goals of gaining LBM. Eat +300ish cals on w/o days and -300 to 500 on rest days.
 
Only the first part of that dosing schedule will work for me. I am going to fast from 10 pm til noon the next day, so I'm actually giving myself a 9-10 hr eating window. I try to be in bed by 10:30-11.
 
Seems like I read somewhere that if your first meal of the day is post workout, you can be a little more lax on the carb source. Is whole wheat bread ok? Whole grain chips? (sunchips)
 
Yah man your good to go. One of martins clients ate 3 bowls of captain crunch and milk with 3 protein shakes as his post workout meal.

And unless you are in contest prep, there's really no reason to avoid some of those foods like the plague anyway (obviously try and be somewhat health conscious but don't be super ridiculous). Live life a little, you can get pretty far throug IF, hitting your macros, hitting your kcals on a daily basis, and proper/intense training.
 
Awesome thanks! What about waxy maize/bcaa/pepto pro mix immediately after workout, followed by the first (largest) meal about 20 min later? Does this diminish anything? Make the body do anything we don't want it doing right before a large meal?

jswain34 said:
Yah man your good to go. One of martins clients ate 3 bowls of captain crunch and milk with 3 protein shakes as his post workout meal.

And unless you are in contest prep, there's really no reason to avoid some of those foods like the plague anyway (obviously try and be somewhat health conscious but don't be super ridiculous). Live life a little, you can get pretty far throug IF, hitting your macros, hitting your kcals on a daily basis, and proper/intense training.
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machwon04 said:
Awesome thanks! What about waxy maize/bcaa/pepto pro mix immediately after workout, followed by the first (largest) meal about 20 min later? Does this diminish anything? Make the body do anything we don't want it doing right before a large meal?
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I mean you'll be breaking your fast with that combination. But if you wanna do it go ahead. its kind of a waste of $ IMO id rather just use those kcal in my post workout meal.
 
That's fine. I grab lunch on my way back to the office from the gym anyway. I have 13-14 hours of fasting done by the time I would drink this. That's enough for gradual fat loss huh?

Normally I would agree with you on the waste of $$ as I would definitely rather just eat, but I made a custom mix on TrueNutrition last week and just got it in the mail yesterday, so I might as well use it.
 
I think most of the benefits of the high gi carb and whey PO are realized when you train twice a day... It might make you feel a bit more peppy after the gym ( i do this on weekend when i need to get stuff done afterwards).
 
Yah I mean I prefer longer fasts closer to 18-19 hours but its up to you I guess. Id personally try to get at least to the 16/8 window but its really up to you. If you don't see any results more than what you would with regular eating then push from 13-14 hour fasts to the 16 hour and then actually be able to assess your feelings on Martins protocol.

The closer to the 24 hour mark you get the better (higher rate of fatty acid oxidation, lower insulin levels, increased GH spikes, higher glucagon levels, more liver glycogen depletion, among other things) based on the data I've seen presented by Pilon in Eat Stop Eat.
 
I'm going to spend some time browsing through this thread ...

However here is my early AM fasted protocol:

4am

2tbsp MCT oil
1tbsp CN oil
50g grass fed butter
Blended with upgraded coffee
Organic cinnamon 1/4 tsp

4.45am

Train sipping 20g of 8:1:1 BCAAs pre-intra-post WO

7am and 9am

10g bcaas

11am Meal 1 fats and protein

3pm Meal 2 fats and protein

7pm Meal 3 carbs and protein
 
Captn_the said:
I'm going to spend some time browsing through this thread ...

However here is my early AM fasted protocol:

4am

2tbsp MCT oil
1tbsp CN oil
50g grass fed butter
Blended with upgraded coffee
Organic cinnamon 1/4 tsp

4.45am

Train sipping 20g of 8:1:1 BCAAs pre-intra-post WO

7am and 9am

10g bcaas

11am Meal 1 fats and protein

3pm Meal 2 fats and protein

7pm Meal 3 carbs and protein
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Why do you have so much oil and butter in the morning? How is that considered fasted when we aren't supposed to go over around 50 calories or so in the morning? A little cream with coffee, etc.
 
houstontexas said:
Why do you have so much oil and butter in the morning? How is that considered fasted when we aren't supposed to go over around 50 calories or so in the morning? A little cream with coffee, etc.
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It's Invalid Link Removed. It clearly breaks the fast by Martin's rules, but it's an important part of Dave Asprey's Invalid Link Removed. Dave Asprey and Kiefer (the Carb Backloading guy) both make the argument that all of the benefits of fasting are gained by merely staying in ketosis for most of the day by restricting carbohydrates until dinner time.

Whether Dave and Keifer are right about that point or not, I don't know. But personally I'm doing BP IF at this point, partly because I got hooked on BP Coffee right from the first time I tried it, and partly because I think there may be some health value to regularly spending some time in ketosis. Also, having a large percentage of my calories and carbs in that first meal generally left me overly drowsy in the early afternoon.

Where I agree more with Martin, though, is counting calories. Regardless of the rest of my diet strategy, I've always lost weight consistently when counting calories/macros, and always hit plateaus when I tried not counting.
 
I've been bulletproof for 3 weeks now ... I'm hitting a whopping 100g of grass-fed butter in my coffee plus mct - were talking around 1,000 cals at 4am, breaking fast at 12pm.

Results thus far is my BF has dropped and I've added ~ 3lbs of lbm

My dexa scan was 10.2% 3 weeks ago, so it's a safe assumption I'm sub-10%

Invalid Link Removed
 
Captn_the said:
I could learn a thing or two from you then :)
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just what works for me, i dont cycle my fats or carbs much i just drop carbs 20-30g on off days and keep protein/fat pretty stable. The net calories at the end of the week is what mattrs not how you swing them from day to day which could impair recovery.

Its all about trail and error when i swing kcals or go high fat i feel awful, so i dont do it.
 
That makes sense, I've always struggled with carbs and finding higher fats appear to agree with me, but there's definitely been an adjustment period.
 
From starting Leangains, those of you who've done it from scratch, how long did it take for you to see results? I'm about 5-6 weeks in myself now (body recomp). So far, so good, although progress seems to be slow. I know this is a marathon, not a sprint, so I'm telling myself slow and steady wins the race, as I know you can't expect these things to work overnight, but curious in what time-frame others have seen results?
 
Johnston said:
From starting Leangains, those of you who've done it from scratch, how long did it take for you to see results? I'm about 5-6 weeks in myself now (body recomp). So far, so good, although progress seems to be slow. I know this is a marathon, not a sprint, so I'm telling myself slow and steady wins the race, as I know you can't expect these things to work overnight, but curious in what time-frame others have seen results?
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Varies from person to person
Experience in training
Remember IF is not magical, its just like a normal diet of spaced out meals. Progress will be similar with given a consistent intake to suit your goal.
 
Yeah I'm aware of that. I've been in the fitness game long enough to not expect a magical result from anything. LG suits my lifestyle for now though, it's a good fit for me, and I like the structure of it, so I'm not bending over backwards or suffering in the hope that this will provide amazing instant results. There's lots of evidence out there that the 16/8 fast thing works though. I was mostly just curious as to others results/experiences with it, always interesting to hear that. :)
 
Johnston said:
Yeah I'm aware of that. I've been in the fitness game long enough to not expect a magical result from anything. LG suits my lifestyle for now though, it's a good fit for me, and I like the structure of it, so I'm not bending over backwards or suffering in the hope that this will provide amazing instant results. There's lots of evidence out there that the 16/8 fast thing works though. I was mostly just curious as to others results/experiences with it, always interesting to hear that. :)
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16/8 is what i use, works wonders. Usually fast until lunch, have lunch (pre-workout), go home from school (i am a teacher) grab a pre-workout drink/intra workout drink and hit the gym
Big post-workout meal
Big Pre-bed meal

pre-workout is like 400-500kcals just something to fuel me through training.
 
sina said:
How much BCAAS do you guys use on IF
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Depends
How do you set up your day?

If i train fasted upon waking 10g then meal 1 following
Some people train fasted (10g) and dose 10g every 2 hours until the first meal is taken

Outlined here:

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Fasted training

Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase. Technically, training is not completely fasted - that would be detrimental. The pre-workout protein intake, with its stimulatory effect on protein synthesis and metabolism, is a crucial compromise to optimize results. The 8-hour feeding phase starts with the post-workout meal.

Sample setup

11.30-12 AM or 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA
12-1 PM: Training
1 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal of the day).
4 PM: Second meal.
9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

Calories and carbs are tapered down throughout the day in the example above.


Early morning fasted training

Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later. Read this for details regarding this protocol.

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.
6-7 AM: Training.
8 AM: 10 g BCAA.
10 AM: 10 g BCAA
12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.
8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

For the sake of conveniency, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand recommendations.
 
Johnston said:
From starting Leangains, those of you who've done it from scratch, how long did it take for you to see results? I'm about 5-6 weeks in myself now (body recomp). So far, so good, although progress seems to be slow. I know this is a marathon, not a sprint, so I'm telling myself slow and steady wins the race, as I know you can't expect these things to work overnight, but curious in what time-frame others have seen results?
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2-3 weeks, but I was rebounding from a hard cut.
 
Johnston said:
Yeah I'm aware of that. I've been in the fitness game long enough to not expect a magical result from anything. LG suits my lifestyle for now though, it's a good fit for me, and I like the structure of it, so I'm not bending over backwards or suffering in the hope that this will provide amazing instant results. There's lots of evidence out there that the 16/8 fast thing works though. I was mostly just curious as to others results/experiences with it, always interesting to hear that. :)
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Just depends on your goals, and how far away from your goal you are. Plus just like with any other dietary strategy there are varying degrees of aggressiveness towards the goals. Someone on an aggressive cut would see changes more quickly than someone eating for recomp, and so on. I noticed it working with in the first few weeks but I was cutting when I first started IF. When I did recomp levels it was more gradual of a change. I have not used IF to get below about 7.5% so I can't really speak to how quickly that works for getting ultra shredded.

If you feel you are not progressing as quickly as you wanted perhaps you should play with your macros or change your caloric levels on either a burn, or build day depending on the goals, or if doing like The Solution across the board.
 
The Solution said:
Depends How do you set up your day? If i train fasted upon waking 10g then meal 1 following Some people train fasted (10g) and dose 10g every 2 hours until the first meal is taken Outlined here: [Fasted training Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase. Technically, training is not completely fasted - that would be detrimental. The pre-workout protein intake, with its stimulatory effect on protein synthesis and metabolism, is a crucial compromise to optimize results. The 8-hour feeding phase starts with the post-workout meal. Sample setup 11.30-12 AM or 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA 12-1 PM: Training 1 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). 4 PM: Second meal. 9 PM: Last meal before the fast. Calories and carbs are tapered down throughout the day in the example above. Early morning fasted training Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later. Read this for details regarding this protocol. 6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA. 6-7 AM: Training. 8 AM: 10 g BCAA. 10 AM: 10 g BCAA 12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window. 8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast. For the sake of conveniency, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand
recommendations.
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Great information! Thank you! I'm new to IF as well been fasting just over a month & have lost roughly 4kg of fat mostly I believe!

Few questions from your post!

Do you taper carbs? Most post WO then last meal hardly any?

And do you believe low carbs a good option with IF? If so how low?
 
floyd88jaus said:
Do you taper carbs? Most post WO then last meal hardly any?

And do you believe low carbs a good option with IF? If so how low?
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Just to throw my two cents in here... carbs are one of the most variable macros in terms of an individuals tolerance. It's something you need to experiment with to find your sweet spot. Some people do better on lower, some on higher. I'm on about 400g on workout days, about 80g on rest days, and that works well for me. I've seen some people with very different figures to that and do just as well, so it's a very individual thing. It also does depend on your goals, and if you're going for a recomp, cut or bulk, although I find the beauty of the LG approach is that it's kind of all three-in-one if you get it right. Definitely does require a bit of experimentation though.

If you read the LG website there are guidelines and several options there as to timing, and how to structure the meals around your workout.
 
floyd88jaus said:
Great information! Thank you! I'm new to IF as well been fasting just over a month & have lost roughly 4kg of fat mostly I believe!

Few questions from your post!

Do you taper carbs? Most post WO then last meal hardly any?

And do you believe low carbs a good option with IF? If so how low?
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Tapering carbs does nothing. Meeting total calories does
I increase my carbs as the day goes
Post-workout and pre-bed (largest meal)

Low carbs is not a great option unless you are carb sensative people really drop kcals on off days which is not a smart thing, these are VITAL for recovery. many people find that once they take their overall calories and average them they see better success than cycling them so much.
Once you meet protein/fat minimums use the carbs to fuel your training.

again i keep my carbs very high on off days as well i just lower them 20-30g if i am not training that day.
 
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