Stuff is really heating up in the mideast...

[kwyckemynd00]

Ummm....no.

Nobody ever said "not supporting the war" was unpatriotic, however other actions such condemning the nation's military for its leaders actions are unpatriotic. Or, calling the US a terrorist nation could be considered unpatriotic by definition. What is unpatriotic about these people is that they are DIGGING for things to bash the US about. There is no other reason to dig for reasons to bash the US other than a person being a US hater.

I guess you could argue that theyd like to see "change", but, this change doesn't reflect what the US is/was (and IMO should be), so basically, they don't support the US.

 

[anabolicrhino]

kwyckemynd00]Ummm....no.

Nobody ever said "not supporting the war" was unpatriotic, {QUOTE][/B]

Ummm...do you mean other than Bush and Chaney?

 

[anabolicrhino]

.

I guess you could argue that theyd like to see "change", but, this change doesn't reflect what the US is/was (and IMO should be), so basically, they don't support the US.

This is an example of the political enviroment that creates the fear that is similar to the situation in Lebanon. People who oppose the actions of the US military abroad are fearful that they might be considered "dissidents". This fear prevents constructive critisism from being an effective tool to make the USA a better place to live.

 

[MaynardMeek]

kwyckemynd00]Ummm....no.

Nobody ever said "not supporting the war" was unpatriotic, {QUOTE][/B]

Ummm...do you mean other than Bush and Chaney?

show me a page, hell even CNN, that shows me that quote.. that bush ..and Chaney.

There are many things done by members of both republicans but mostly democrat/Liberals that are revoking our abilities in the war. This is treason, and should not be accepted. This is all done to not better the nation, but to better their political standings; however, these people will fail. The majority of americans understand that war is war. The majority of americans know that if we had these same liberal media covering world war 2, we would have never dropped the bombs and the war would have went on for a year or 2 or 3 spelling the ends of millions more lives, of men, women and children that would have not been innocent, but taken up arms and cherry blossom planes against us. Even hillary hair cut clinton knows to be against the war will not win you an election.

These islamists hold the same exact mentality as the Japanese. It is actually something to be admired. To love your god or your state so much that surrender is worse then death. It is an awesome trait, but it is also a trait that we cannot affored and exsist in a free world, if said trait wants to bring forth a society of one mind or we kill you. This is what they want. They train their children at ages as young as 5. The sect of islam that makes family members shame daughters and sisters if they look at a man with lust, to the point of suicide.

Now i am not a fan of Israel the state, though I do support them. I do hold the feeling that Jews should be jews and not a political party of Zion. God kicked the jews out of the promise land and they must not return until God wants them back. Though I am someone that feels Israel should not be, I also feel that while they are here and recognized, and until they disolve their own government and return jews to their proper roots, we must support their right to exsist.

 

[BioHazzard]

This is a similar situation to the one between the current administration of the United States and its(our) global military activity. The US ctizens (me) have been afraid to challenge the authority of its leaders to send soldiers to die for an unknown objective(oil?)(freedom?)
While the US citizen is not challenged with physical violence, they are threatened with the lable of being unpatriotic.The fear is that the lack of patriotism will lead to a weaker USA.

Unpatriotic? Only if you give aid and comfort to the enemy, endangering the lives of my troops, like the New York Times has been doing, for example.

There are people who criticize the war, because they are simply chronic complainers who would complain and criticize everything the USA did, irrespective of whether they are talking from both sides of the mouth or not. Whatever the US does or does not do, is wrong, according to them.

There are people who criticize the war, because it affects them personally. Either they have to get in harm's way or their loved ones are. I don't necessary blame them, except in cases where they want all the benefits of being in the military but chicken out when they have to live up to their obligations.

There are people who criticize the war, because they are influenced by what they read and what they hear. Their positions are forged by their exposure to their environment. Peer pressure.

There are people who criticize the war, based on, as Bobo said to one of our esteemed colleague here, 'what [they] think is going on over there, and not what is actually going on over there."


Is it unpatriotic to undermine our war effort and indirectly endangering the lives of our troops? I think if your action or inaction endangers the lives of our troops, then irrespective of your reason, it is simply treason and treachery.

 

[BioHazzard]

....These islamists hold the same exact mentality as the Japanese. It is actually something to be admired. To love your god or your state so much that surrender is worse then death. It is an awesome trait, but it is also a trait that we cannot affored and exsist in a free world, if said trait wants to bring forth a society of one mind or we kill you. This is what they want. They train their children at ages as young as 5. The sect of islam that makes family members shame daughters and sisters if they look at a man with lust, to the point of suicide. ....

There is this fatalistic mentality that enslaves them.

"...We do not want to live merely in order to eat, drink, and enjoy life's pleasures, and leave our homeland to Israel so it will slaughter it upon the altar of its aspirations, desires, hate, and historic vendettas. Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. The most honorable death is to be killed, as the Leader Imam Al-Khamenei said when 'Abbas [Musawi] was martyred. He said: "Congratulations to 'Abbas, congratulations to 'Abbas." The most honorable death is death by killing, and the most honorable killing and the most glorious martyrdom is when a man is killed for the sake of Allah, by the enemies of Allah, the murderers of the prophets [i.e. the Jews]...."


If this is the sh1t you are brainwashed with since you first learn to talk, then you don't think about coexisting in peace with Israel. What kind of traitor and coward would you be if you seek accomodation with the Jews?

I can sympathize, to a degree, with the Palestinian refugees living in slums that the refugee camps are. If you live in a hellhole, and you can see with your own eyes, the orchard and land that your grandfathers used to own and farm, but are now owned by the Israelis, well, you would be raging pissed too. AS Barak once said, if he was borned in the refugee camps, he would have become a terrorist too. IIRC, Golda Meir once commented that only the Jews would understand [the Palestinians'] humiliation.

On the Israeli side, you have people who can see things from the other side and are willing to compromise. They are not just loud talking politicians. Men like Rabin, Sharon and Barak, for example. They are men who have fought and bled, and died, for Israel. And they are willing to exchange land for peace. They understand and accept the reality that the Land of Israel is not the State of Israel. This is a concept that has totally escaped the Palestinians. To them, what they consider as the Land of Palestine ought to be the State of Palestine. In order to have peace, you need participants from both sides.

As for Hizballah and Nasralah, they can go fvck themselves. They are fvcking tools of the crazy Iranian ayatollahs. They are not even Palestinians.

 

[BigVrunga]

"...We do not want to live merely in order to eat, drink, and enjoy life's pleasures, and leave our homeland to Israel so it will slaughter it upon the altar of its aspirations, desires, hate, and historic vendettas. Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. The most honorable death is to be killed, as the Leader Imam Al-Khamenei said when 'Abbas [Musawi] was martyred. He said: "Congratulations to 'Abbas, congratulations to 'Abbas." The most honorable death is death by killing, and the most honorable killing and the most glorious martyrdom is when a man is killed for the sake of Allah, by the enemies of Allah, the murderers of the prophets [i.e. the Jews]...."

You can't win a war against that kind of mentality by trying to protect civlian lives. Like mentioned above, it bears many similarities to the Japanese during WW2. All the liberal and humanitarian BS in the world isnt going to change the minds of the brainwashed millions, they'll never peacefully coexist.

Its unfortunate, but IMO this whole thing is going to get real ugly. It will go on the way its going for a time, with guerilla fighting and whatnot, but going down that road this war will last for generations.

BV

 

[RenegadeRows]

A friend who is in the army told me once, as he pats his 1 year old son on the head, "...He'll be fighting this war someday." I beleive him.

 

[BioHazzard]

You can't win a war against that kind of mentality by trying to protect civlian lives. Like mentioned above, it bears many similarities to the Japanese during WW2. All the liberal and humanitarian BS in the world isnt going to change the minds of the brainwashed millions, they'll never peacefully coexist.

Its unfortunate, but IMO this whole thing is going to get real ugly. It will go on the way its going for a time, with guerilla fighting and whatnot, but going down that road this war will last for generations.

BV

You can always convert to Islam and submit to Allah's wishes (according to whatever the mullahs and ayatollahs say they are)

How does Mohammad Kasim Bin BigVrunga sound to you? :lol:

 

[max silver]

The real tragedy is that the media never reports the Palestinian issue in the context of the occupation and always portrays the Israeli's as being reactive.
The documentary Peace Propaganda and Israel gives a nice explanation.link

That documentary is well worth the watch. While I fullheartedly agree that terrorists are useless scum, there is more to the palestinian/israeli struggle than is commonly reported in the media. How the western world can allow the occupation of the West Bank to continue with a full recommendation of all Israeli policy is beyond me.

 

[anabolicrhino]

show me a page, hell even CNN, that shows me that quote.. that bush ..and Chaney.

The quote in my post was from the post of another AM board member.

I can't narrow it down too much but, somewhere between September 11th,2001 and today the Bush administration has promoted a war on terrorism with the catch phrase of "..your are either with us or against us." This doctrine was outlined rather clearly in Bush's address to the nation on Sept 20th,2001. You may also review many pro-Bush quotes from various members of his 2004 re-election campaign concerning what constitutes patriotism
Now, nobody is pro-terrorist, but a free society must be able to express alternative view points without fear of redemption or why else would we want to fight for it.

 

[BigVrunga]

I remember hearing that too, AnabolicRhino.

 

[MaynardMeek]

right.. you are either with us or against us in the terms of ridding the world of islamo-Nazi states.. no question in my mind that everyone on this board is for ending this sects....and that quote was meant for nations that have been known to support these groups.


"Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."


that quote has nothing to do with acts of aiding and abetting terrorists that are currently taking place by some media outlets and few American citizens.

 

[swole210]

right.. you are either with us or against us in the terms of ridding the world of islamo-Nazi states.. no question in my mind that everyone on this board is for ending this sects....and that quote was meant for nations that have been known to support these groups.


"Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."


that quote has nothing to do with acts of aiding and abetting terrorists that are currently taking place by some media outlets and few American citizens.

Applause absolutely!!:clap2: :clap2: :clap2:! Nothing hard about that concept, either you are with us in ridding terrorism, or you are against us in this cause!

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Ummm...do you mean other than Bush and Chaney?

Yeah..even Bush and Cheney. They may think that privately, but I've never heard them say it publically...EVER.

"You're either with us or against us" refers to fighting terrorism. You disagree with him on a portion of that fight that he believes is essential and you do not. Thats perfectly fine.

 

[anabolicrhino]

Yeah..even Bush and Cheney. They may think that privately, but I've never heard them say it publically...EVER.

"You're either with us or against us" refers to fighting terrorism. You disagree with him on a portion of that fight that he believes is essential and you do not. Thats perfectly fine.

Thanks for understanding my point, which is you don't have to agree with everybody(or state) on all acounts, you can still support them as individuals(or states) without following every comment that they put forth. This is what seperates the USA from most other countries. This free expression is why I continue to visit and post on this board because it is by far the most open minded in terms of allowing people to express their veiw point without being slammed unmerciously.

My concern is that there is a blurring of the the lines between fighting terrorism and discriminating against contrary view points on the subject.
One of the tactics of terrorism is to divide the people against eachother with the confusion that follows their terror attacks.
That's why the most effective terror tactic is when no one takes credit for the act, which leads to alot of finger pointing.
The rational minds must prevail.

Thanks for the props, BV!

 

[judge-mental]

That documentary is well worth the watch. While I fullheartedly agree that terrorists are useless scum, there is more to the palestinian/israeli struggle than is commonly reported in the media. How the western world can allow the occupation of the West Bank to continue with a full recommendation of all Israeli policy is beyond me.

its beyond you so much that you don't back it with logic?
oh, yes, right, sophism and rhetorics are where its at these days.

On topic: I'm a left wing "liberal" Israeli. that said, there is no one to give the west bank to. I would be happy to dump that useless pile of ****, but not right now, as those who will take over it will use it as a base to destroy me. they have proven it countless times in the last 30 years. heck they say it out loud again and again. so WTF should I do? I just continue my life and watch my home, while turning Israel into a ****ing paradise, no thanks to any arab. they only rip the benefits.

semi on topic: I find it hilarious(and scary) how most of the folks are uneducated on the conflict. luckilly the armed forces guys are a little better.

 

[judge-mental]

PS if you don't know Israel has called in 3 reserve batallions or whatever the word is and the syrians are on alert. because israel's government are afraid to go into lebanon they flex their muscles against the syrians who keep fueling this war... what a waste of time.

damn pathetic generals.

there was a plan, just for this scenario, sending in 30000 troups and erradicating Hizballa. instead they to it in drips while civilians get rockets daily where my parents live.

what a bunch of pussies.

 

[max silver]

its beyond you so much that you don't back it with logic?
oh, yes, right, sophism and rhetorics are where its at these days.

On topic: I'm a left wing "liberal" Israeli. that said, there is no one to give the west bank to. I would be happy to dump that useless pile of ****, but not right now, as those who will take over it will use it as a base to destroy me. they have proven it countless times in the last 30 years. heck they say it out loud again and again. so WTF should I do? I just continue my life and watch my home, while turning Israel into a ****ing paradise, no thanks to any arab. they only rip the benefits.

semi on topic: I find it hilarious(and scary) how most of the folks are uneducated on the conflict. luckilly the armed forces guys are a little better.

Have the palestinian people always harboured this type of hatred towards the Jewish people? I found myself outraged over much of what was presented in that documentary. Granted, it was skewed to the Palestinian side, but what I saw was a brutal occupation, which really appeared as a means to drive people from there homes. Am I missing something?

I don't see how people could honestly accomplish much when subjected to curfews that last days at a time, are subject to multiple checkpoints everytime they go somewhere, and when trying to do something like build themselves a home, it's demolished in front of their eyes so another country can annex it.

 

[swole210]

Thanks for understanding my point, which is you don't have to agree with everybody(or state) on all acounts, you can still support them as individuals(or states) without following every comment that they put forth. This is what seperates the USA from most other countries. This free expression is why I continue to visit and post on this board because it is by far the most open minded in terms of allowing people to express their veiw point without being slammed unmerciously.

My concern is that there is a blurring of the the lines between fighting terrorism and discriminating against contrary view points on the subject.
One of the tactics of terrorism is to divide the people against eachother with the confusion that follows their terror attacks.
That's why the most effective terror tactic is when no one takes credit for the act, which leads to alot of finger pointing.
The rational minds must prevail.



Thanks for the props, BV!

Good point!

 

[swole210]

Have the palestinian people always harboured this type of hatred towards the Jewish people? I found myself outraged over much of what was presented in that documentary. Granted, it was skewed to the Palestinian side, but what I saw was a brutal occupation, which really appeared as a means to drive people from there homes. Am I missing something?

I don't see how people could honestly accomplish much when subjected to curfews that last days at a time, are subject to multiple checkpoints everytime they go somewhere, and when trying to do something like build themselves a home, it's demolished in front of their eyes so another country can annex it.

It's like judge-mental said, they use the land given to them to inturn only use it as more and closer bases to launch terrorist attacks against Ireal. If one side is willing to work with the other, and try to come to some type of agreement or are at least willing to meet half way, and the other side is not willing to do the same, then you have nothing!!! YOU CANNOT WORK LIKE THAT! Now this is a poor examplel that I am about to use, but it is like if I were hungry and had no food what so ever and I beg you for some food, and finally you give me some food, and in return I take the food and throw it in your faceand give you a swift kick in the nuts:nutkick: along with it! Again, this is a poor example, but just trying to put it into context! So long as the Hizzbollah, has this born hatred of Isreal, there will be no way to work out an agreement! Both sides have to be willing to work, and come to a half way meeting point, and I do not see that happening:duel: ! It's sad though!

 

[BioHazzard]

PS if you don't know Israel has called in 3 reserve batallions or whatever the word is and the syrians are on alert. because israel's government are afraid to go into lebanon they flex their muscles against the syrians who keep fueling this war... what a waste of time.

damn pathetic generals.

there was a plan, just for this scenario, sending in 30000 troups and erradicating Hizballa. instead they to it in drips while civilians get rockets daily where my parents live.

what a bunch of pussies.

Actually the generals want to expand the operation, but the cabinet aka politicians refused, and only authorized 3 divisions to be called up.

For all we know, it may be just to confuse Hizballah. Afterall, why announce to them what you are actually going to do? If anything, let them think that they are safe....

 

[Rogue Drone]

PS if you don't know Israel has called in 3 reserve batallions or whatever the word is and the syrians are on alert. because israel's government are afraid to go into lebanon they flex their muscles against the syrians who keep fueling this war... what a waste of time.

damn pathetic generals.

there was a plan, just for this scenario, sending in 30000 troups and erradicating Hizballa. instead they to it in drips while civilians get rockets daily where my parents live.

what a bunch of pussies.

Are you in the position to armchair quarterback the tactical decision of the Isrealis to use a measured response to the north in Lebanon and still retain sufficent reserve in the northeast to possibly counter or pursue the Syrians, and continue to contain the direct east,versus the Palestinines?

Isreal has concerns on many fronts, this is a chess game of finite resources to cover many potentials, the gradual advancement of forces into Lebanon to secure a rocket free launching zone is necessary to retain homeland defense without becoming overcommitted in one area.

The Isrealis as pussies, right, a small nation under seige and judiciously applying limited resources in a complex multifront equation as a warrior band of brothers in arms would be my characterization.

My plan would be to appropriate the normal five year commitment of arms shipments within the next six months to Isreal, ever single dollar spent and arm sent there to is 2 to 5X force multiplier in saving future direct costs to the U.S.

Sooner or later, one of these radical regimes or groups will go beyond the acceptable degree of threat to us, the United States, and the entire might of the U.S. in killing mode versus police action will be applied, these meidevals judges us as being weakly uncommittted until they seriously threaten our homeland or vital interests, once they force our gloves off, it becomes a whole different measure of judicious homicide.

Thank Allah, Iranians,that less sociopathic men than I are making the strike decisions, I would nuke you repeatedly from afar, and then go claim the treasure, the oil, the longterm practicalities would far outweight my temporary pangs of conscience.

Scratch the surface of the United States, you get the fat consumer MTV types, dig deeper to pain, we will go Rome on your ass.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

You're right RD, but what I think he was getting at is the fact that although they're still not sitting pretty with koffie (the ass) anon and the UN / rest of the castrated world, they are still reserving actions that they probably would be better off taking. So, technically, I agree with both of ya on this one

 

[BioHazzard]

You all warmongering INFIDELS!!!!

 

[anabolicrhino]

There are some theorist that think that certain parts of the world and certain people are not ready for US type democracy.
This would help explain why the democratic template that the US has tried to set up in Afghanistan and Iraq has not held together very well. Deomocracy takes time and effort. The Middle East has been in conflict for over 2000 years. It is very optimistic to think they would "just all get along".
I believe that The Israeli government uses these failures as a "green light" to try their own type of expansion into the Arab territories. The Lebonese just made the mistake of giving them an excuse by kidnapping their soldiers.

 

[BigVrunga]

Sooner or later, one of these radical regimes or groups will go beyond the acceptable degree of threat to us, the United States, and the entire might of the U.S. in killing mode versus police action will be applied, these meidevals judges us as being weakly uncommittted until they seriously threaten our homeland or vital interests, once they force our gloves off, it becomes a whole different measure of judicious homicide.

Thank Allah, Iranians,that less sociopathic men than I are making the strike decisions, I would nuke you repeatedly from afar, and then go claim the treasure, the oil, the longterm practicalities would far outweight my temporary pangs of conscience.

Scratch the surface of the United States, you get the fat consumer MTV types, dig deeper to pain, we will go Rome on your ass.

I couldnt agree more. The way the US is acting now, we look to be in disarray, making weak tactical decisions when the reality of fighting a war is considered. I hate to say it, but you dont win a war by trying to be all politically correct and humanitarian. This crap will go on for a time, and then something else akin to the 9/11 attacks (or worse) will happen, and the real **** will hit the fan.

BV

 

[BigVrunga]

This is mentality that western nations are dealing with:

Iran president bans usage of foreign words - Mideast/N. Africa - MSNBC.com

craziness...

 

[swole210]

I couldnt agree more. The way the US is acting now, we look to be in disarray, making weak tactical decisions when the reality of fighting a war is considered. I hate to say it, but you dont win a war by trying to be all politically correct and humanitarian. This crap will go on for a time, and then something else akin to the 9/11 attacks (or worse) will happen, and the real **** will hit the fan.

BV

You are absolutely right BV!! We are busy.......I guess trying to look like good guys and not go savage on there ass, but that tactic is not working for us in any aspect! People don't look at us as nice guys , and we are just taking a ****ing long ass time over there!!

 

[kwyckemynd00]

There are some theorist that think that certain parts of the world and certain people are not ready for US type democracy.
This would help explain why the democratic template that the US has tried to set up in Afghanistan and Iraq has not held together very well. Deomocracy takes time and effort. The Middle East has been in conflict for over 2000 years. It is very optimistic to think they would "just all get along".
I believe that The Israeli government uses these failures as a "green light" to try their own type of expansion into the Arab territories. The Lebonese just made the mistake of giving them an excuse by kidnapping their soldiers.

You're right..it is an optimistic idea (and unrealistic) to expect it to happen fast.

Now, onto the other point. If the Israelis were after expansion, why did they just give give back Gaza and kick out hundreds of thousands of their own residents, by force via the military?

 

[anabolicrhino]

You're right..it is an optimistic idea (and unrealistic) to expect it to happen fast.

Now, onto the other point. If the Israelis were after expansion, why did they just give give back Gaza and kick out hundreds of thousands of their own residents, by force via the military?

I can only speculate about Israel's policy decisions, but,... maybe they felt guilty? Many of the settlements in the Gaza were disputed
as to what was a legal agreement and what was just a bums rush.

 

[BioHazzard]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

No kidding.. My money is on a burning bush somewhere in Gaza talking, telling them they should go back to Tel Aviv.... :lol:

 

[judge-mental]

RD actually I am in a position to "armchair quarterabck".

I served 22 months in southern lebanon itself, before the pullout in 2000(I served there in 94-96)

Further more this sunday like many of my friends I was mobilized from my hibernation and called to the army (I'm in the front unit for an artillery batallion). and I'm on leave now.

BioHazard - the generals also made errors, more in the level of managing the combat. some really basic stuff if you want I can detail it, and it hurting me to see kids die for nothing because generals are dumb fvcks.

And, Yeah the Israel governement was too PC, too pussified and missed its window of oppurtunity.

 

[judge-mental]

Have the palestinian people always harboured this type of hatred towards the Jewish people? I found myself outraged over much of what was presented in that documentary. Granted, it was skewed to the Palestinian side, but what I saw was a brutal occupation, which really appeared as a means to drive people from there homes. Am I missing something?

I don't see how people could honestly accomplish much when subjected to curfews that last days at a time, are subject to multiple checkpoints everytime they go somewhere, and when trying to do something like build themselves a home, it's demolished in front of their eyes so another country can annex it.

Why do they hate us? yeah, I guess the occupation has something to do with that, but very little. their life under teh occupation was much better than most arabs in teh middel east until the Intifada(again, not that I supported the occupation). But then and now alot of it is mass propaganda and fundementalism. I mean, you don't see native americans blow up whites in the states. they realize that stuff happened and these are not the same people. and they are willing to find a solution.

 

[Number 5]

The Lebonese just made the mistake of giving them an excuse by kidnapping their soldiers.

Are you sure they were kidnapped rather than captured?

I know that's the official story out there, but when this first broke, July 12, AP/Forbes reported that "Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon."

When soldiers are on foreign territory against international agreements, and get taken then they are captured rather than kidnapped imo.

Now I don't know what the truth is, but I wouldn't put it past Israel and US media and government to try to put an anti-Hesbollah spin on the events. Also, I consider Forbes to be a respectable source with no pro-Arab or anti-Semite bias.

source: Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers - Forbes.com

 

[anabolicrhino]

Are you sure they were kidnapped rather than captured?

I know that's the official story out there, but when this first broke, July 12, AP/Forbes reported that "Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon."

When soldiers are on foreign territory against international agreements, and get taken then they are captured rather than kidnapped imo.

Now I don't know what the truth is, but I wouldn't put it past Israel and US media and government to try to put an anti-Hesbollah spin on the events. Also, I consider Forbes to be a respectable source with no pro-Arab or anti-Semite bias.

source: Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers - Forbes.com

I am not sure of the real story, just the various media and state department spins. My guess is that it is not unusual for a few soldiers to be captured from time to time, mostly this does not make the headlines. However, when there is an agenda(?) a simple spin of the story, changing the word "captured" to "kidnapped" helps gather support for any military action. The Israeli military is "responding to the Lebanese aggression" as opposed to the launching of a "seek and destroy" mission.

 

[BioHazzard]

.....BioHazard - the generals also made errors, more in the level of managing the combat. some really basic stuff if you want I can detail it, and it hurting me to see kids die for nothing because generals are dumb fvcks.

And, Yeah the Israel governement was too PC, too pussified and missed its window of oppurtunity....

Well, I know that. Everyone knows that there are deadwood in every military hierarchy of every country. Then again, in Israel, there is this saying that the reservists tend to act and think they know better about winning war than the regulars do. I was just commenting on your "damn pathetic generals" remark in your previous post. I took it to mean that you were blaming the generals for not expanding the operation beyond the current tempo, while it is actually the cabinet that vetoed the generals' plan to expand operation. If you were just commenting on poor military leadership, then I agree with you. Halutz is being pressed to name an experienced general to oversea the whole campaign.

Surely, it should be no surprised to the leadership, and even the civilian population recognize that, anything short of a crushing defeat of Hizballah, is equivalent to a defeat for the IDF and will just embolden the enemies to attempt further aggression down the road.

 

[anabolicrhino]

Surely, it should be no surprised to the leadership, and even the civilian population recognize that, anything short of a crushing defeat of Hizballah, is equivalent to a defeat for the IDF and will just embolden the enemies to attempt further aggression down the road.

That polarization is the conflict, that fuels the terror. One side must destroy the other, but is tempered by world(USA) opinion. The Arab states are protected by the aprehension of the Israeli government to risk USA support.The more rational of Arab leaders understand this balance and take their lead from the USA.
So, we have a war of containment and atrition. The more the USA "supports" Israel the more it "protects" the Arab states.

Terrorist are are an abberation of this balance, they are a by product of democracy. The people who control the media use the terrorists to scare people, then sell them back their security. I think most people could understand the workings of a political conflict, Most don't care enough to make the effort.

 

[BioHazzard]

That polarization is the conflict, that fuels the terror. One side must destroy the other, but is tempered by world(USA) opinion. The Arab states are protected by the aprehension of the Israeli government to risk USA support.The more rational of Arab leaders understand this balance and take their lead from the USA.
So, we have a war of containment and atrition. The more the USA "supports" Israel the more it "protects" the Arab states.

Terrorist are are an abberation of this balance, they are a by product of democracy. The people who control the media use the terrorists to scare people, then sell them back their security. I think most people could understand the workings of a political conflict, Most don't care enough to make the effort.

huh? What are you trying to say?

 

[anabolicrhino]

huh? What are you trying to say?

Just that it is important to understand what is actually at stake.
It doesn't really matter to the" world at large" who lives in the the land that is called Israel. Unless you live there, why would you care who makes the rules?

The USA is in a position to deal with all leaders. The leaders of any country need the USA as a financial ally

The USA alone decides who they want to recognize as a leader versus who is a fringe or terrorist group. Some of the recognized leaders have a financial interest in the USA economy(israel,Saudi Arabia)
So, there must always be some skeptisism when money is involved.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I am not sure of the real story, just the various media and state department spins. My guess is that it is not unusual for a few soldiers to be captured from time to time, mostly this does not make the headlines. However, when there is an agenda(?) a simple spin of the story, changing the word "captured" to "kidnapped" helps gather support for any military action. The Israeli military is "responding to the Lebanese aggression" as opposed to the launching of a "seek and destroy" mission.

The Hezbollah terrorists crossed the Israeli border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2. Capturing happens on your territory or in a war zone. Not on foreign ground

 

[BioHazzard]

Just that it is important to understand what is actually at stake.
It doesn't really matter to the" world at large" who lives in the the land that is called Israel. Unless you live there, why would you care who makes the rules?

The USA is in a position to deal with all leaders. The leaders of any country need the USA as a financial ally

The USA alone decides who they want to recognize as a leader versus who is a fringe or terrorist group. Some of the recognized leaders have a financial interest in the USA economy(israel,Saudi Arabia)
So, there must always be some skeptisism when money is involved.

I don't have a clue what you are getting at.

 

[anabolicrhino]

The Hezbollah terrorists crossed the Israeli border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped 2. Capturing happens on your territory or in a war zone. Not on foreign ground

I agree with your definitions.

When one side does not recognize the same borders or political affliliations that are generally accepted by the world, then they are strictly terrorist, who by definition don't have to follow any rules of engagement. This is the Middle East!

 

[judge-mental]

Are you sure they were kidnapped rather than captured?

I know that's the official story out there, but when this first broke, July 12, AP/Forbes reported that "Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon."

When soldiers are on foreign territory against international agreements, and get taken then they are captured rather than kidnapped imo.

Now I don't know what the truth is, but I wouldn't put it past Israel and US media and government to try to put an anti-Hesbollah spin on the events. Also, I consider Forbes to be a respectable source with no pro-Arab or anti-Semite bias.

source: Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers - Forbes.com

ofcourse, its illogical to think that a terror organization known to kill many civilians, vowing specifically to kidnap soldiers and to help destroy Israel will start up a fight. lets look elsewhere!

why don't you get your facts right. If you can - I noticed that people are in love with their biases and theories.

now for the facts:

since the pullout from lebanon in 2000, Hizaballa has killed several soldiers and wounded many others in attacks across the borders, including one time posing as UN soldiers to get to the border and kill and KIDNAP the bodies of an Israelly patrol. not even once did an Israelly soldier set foot inside Lebanon.

 

[MaynardMeek]

dont think it was said but Hezbollah cannot capture anyone. they are not a recognized body of the Lebanon army. They are a terrorist group who has filled in a vaccume when israel left the south. They, lebanon, is weak and had no way to take their country back. The Hezbo's have no legal right to hold and take any person, civilian and or military.

 

[Grunt76]

That polarization is the conflict, that fuels the terror. One side must destroy the other, but is tempered by world(USA) opinion. The Arab states are protected by the aprehension of the Israeli government to risk USA support.The more rational of Arab leaders understand this balance and take their lead from the USA.
So, we have a war of containment and atrition. The more the USA "supports" Israel the more it "protects" the Arab states.

Terrorist are are an abberation of this balance, they are a by product of democracy. The people who control the media use the terrorists to scare people, then sell them back their security. I think most people could understand the workings of a political conflict, Most don't care enough to make the effort.

I agree 100%

dont think it was said but Hezbollah cannot capture anyone. they are not a recognized body of the Lebanon army. They are a terrorist group who has filled in a vaccume when israel left the south. They, lebanon, is weak and had no way to take their country back. The Hezbo's have no legal right to hold and take any person, civilian and or military.

Well they are firstly "Residents of Lebanon" who captured foreign soldiers on their own territory. Civilian heroes.

At least, if members of a US private militia captured some North Korean soldiers on their territory, this would be what they are called.

Two situations, two measures, two definitions. Logic? Who cares, right?

 

[MaynardMeek]

My logic's name is Daisy Cutter

 

[BioHazzard]

Mine is called FAE.

Got another one called Hardened Bunker Penetrator.

 

[BioHazzard]

ofcourse, its illogical to think that a terror organization known to kill many civilians, vowing specifically to kidnap soldiers and to help destroy Israel will start up a fight. lets look elsewhere!

why don't you get your facts right. If you can - I noticed that people are in love with their biases and theories.

now for the facts:

since the pullout from lebanon in 2000, Hizaballa has killed several soldiers and wounded many others in attacks across the borders, including one time posing as UN soldiers to get to the border and kill and KIDNAP the bodies of an Israelly patrol. not even once did an Israelly soldier set foot inside Lebanon.

Now now... Don't you know? If you simply claim that Israel has no right to exist and Jews are invaders of Arab land, then anything you do to them cannot be wrong... And everything the Israelis do is criminal. Simple logic, isn't it?

 

[BioHazzard]

My logic's name is Daisy Cutter

That is so yesterday, MM.

Try this...

and this...