Stuff is really heating up in the mideast...

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MaynardMeek

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i dont think we need the Mother of All Bombs JUST yet... They have done some nice things to our cutters and I think they would be a good gift to any Army, more so Israel. I am not wanting them to give away our best stuff.. just very effective stuff
 
glg

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Is it just me or does the media seem to be playing up the "civilians" vs "legitimate" Hizaballa targets (if there is such a thing) being killed in Lebanon while ignoring the fact that almost ALL of the Hizaballa rockets kill Israeli civilians not military targets?
 
BigVrunga

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Is it just me or does the media seem to be playing up the "civilians" vs "legitimate" Hizaballa targets (if there is such a thing) being killed in Lebanon while ignoring the fact that almost ALL of the Hizaballa rockets kill Israeli civilians not military targets?
Yeah, you can tell its an "Israel is Evil" portrayl by the media at the moment. That and the "Hezbollah More of an Advesary that Israeil Prepared For" headlines. Israel could wipe out that entire country if that's what they were trying to do...the only reason why its taking them so long is because they don't intentionally want to harm innocents. That's just it though...these crazy ****ers dont think twice about taking out 2 giant civilian buildings, hijacking planes, etc. Israel blows up the wrong building in a WAR and now they're the bad guy.

Politicians need to define what they want done here. Is hezbollah the enemy? Do we want to eradicate terrorism? Then do it, stop ****ing around and wasting lives on both sides.
That's the way its done. Its not done by being all politically correct, and negotiating with fascists. Europe thought they could negotiate with fascists in WW2 as well, and look what happened there.
I dont know if Israel's rather strong response was warranted, but I do know that people need to make up their ****ing mind and stop wasting human lives. Who is the enemy here? The terrorists and extreme muslin fascists, right? So kill them, kill them all, destroy that method of thinking - eradicate it from the gene pool. Look at Germany and Japan...you think those countries will ever entertain fantasies of world domination again?

Yes, the world needs to be rid of maniacal fascist religious extreemists of all varieties, but we could also do without politicians who have an ulterior motive for everything they do and say, and think nothing of fattening their bank accounts while 1000's die as a direct result of their decisions.

BV
 

MaynardMeek

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Apparently the only thing more valuable than dead Jewish kids to militant Islamisic terrorists is dead Muslim kids whose deaths they can blame on the Israelis. I have never seen a group of people more willing to sacrifice their own children to advance their ideology










EDIT!!! THIS JUST IN!!!!

Now CNN is showing pictures of wounded cats, barely alive, struggling to get to the food dish. The Israelis are killing cats! That does it for me. It may be time to endorse the Hezbos
 

BioHazzard

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With the exception of one single UN official, there is no one else issuing condemnation of Hizballah using civilians as human shields, and purposefully drawing fire to civilians, let alone condemnation of Hizballah firing anti personnel rockets at Israel civilian centers.

Everybody demands Israel to cease fire, but you don't hear anyone demanding Hizballah to cease firing rockets and release kidnapped soldiers.

I think it is funny that every one is talking about how to impose a cease fire while the main culprit, the Hizballah, has been insisting that they would not cease fire and would fight any international troops that set foot in South Lebanon. Yeah, I am sure all those international effort would work.....
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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The UN is ridiculous...but, it is headed by Koffie Anon :rolleyes:
 
BigVrunga

BigVrunga

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I think it is funny that every one is talking about how to impose a cease fire while the main culprit, the Hizballah, has been insisting that they would not cease fire and would fight any international troops that set foot in South Lebanon. Yeah, I am sure all those international effort would work.....
That's because Israel is kicking the crap out of them. If it were the other way around, Hezbollah would be the media's new bad guy. Never mind they're shooting missiles into Israel deliberately trying to kill civilians...
 

MaynardMeek

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I think it is also funny that this islamo's can never do anything wrong. Where are all the major protests. When the united states will not reduce troop size, one million people protest. When a cartoon is written about islam... one million peopl protest. But when when Iran willingly tells the UN to F off after they told them to stop seeking nuclear energy. Where is the protest. Where are the protesters that are against the hezbos who broke ( once again) the UN set rules.

War makes me sick, not really for my life, if i die i die.. but if when i have kids.. god.... i do not want them to have to fight this war with these people and their mindset. I think our goal is is alright. Get them together, get them to fill each others vaccums of power...weak nations inabilities to govern. And nuke the hell out of them all. I am not sorry for saying it. Though our body count will take years and years and years to even match the number of americans and free nations from WW2.. but there should be NO reason why we have to wait to match it.

We have the power. IF they are worried about environment problems.. fine.. we have things that can do the job just as well. But we need to do it.

John the baptist once said that if the tree is rotten you must chop it down inorder to help new roots to grow strong. This middle east is rotten.. these islamists, much like hitler, have been given too much faith, too much "lets wait and see". Its time, and there is no better time.

These people have spread through out the globe bringing their views and feelings about free nation to like minded people.. week minded people that cant cut it in the system. These people find compassion with media because the media loves the underdog. We have NOTHING to lose. We have and the day after the mushroom cloud leaves the area....and all nations who wish for liberty.. no matter what they feel comes after life... arabs, persians, jews, the umpapamowwow tribe of the lower starlictits. We can now then play in our free market game as it should. NO ONE should EVER frear for their lives when trying to make a living.
 

BioHazzard

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Much like the same way that the commies could do no wrong and everything was the free world's fault......

Yeah.. and islamo facist terrorism is a 'byproduct of democracy'...:fart:

On second thought, there is some truth to that in the sense that, under any system but a democracy, islamo facist terrorists would be systematically hunted down and killed off. Does any one remember/know how Bashir's old man did to the islamo facist called the Brotherhood, in the Syrian city of Hama? Sealed off the city and piped in poison gas. And they crowned him the Butcher of Hama...

But I digress....

The Hizbo loonies have no case what so ever. They are just tools to be used as a honeymoon hard-on by the Iranian facist terror mastermind. The Hizbo are not Palestinians. They are Lebanese. Israel has no transgression against the Lebanese. The Hizbo invaded Israel, killed its soldiers and kidnapped 2.

But the truth sucks. I love the conspiracy crap a lot better. It is a lot more entertaining to hallucinate about how the whole thing is actually orchestrated by some evil and greedy politicians in the west, so as to make a fortune in the mass killing of Lebanese babies, and Allah forbids, the lovely kitties!!
 

oswizzle

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The horrific US and UK supported war waged by Israel against Lebanon under the pretext of self defense for the capture of two soldiers by Hezbollah is setting the stage for a US/Israeli military assault on Iran that would lead to a major conflagration in the Middle East and beyond. Only the global antiwar movement and urgent action by a united Iranian community can stop such an aggression.

The reasons behind the current atrocities are misrepresented. The media pretends the Lebanon/Israel border area was calm and peaceful before the unexpected surprise "terrorist attack" by Hezbollah on July 12. In fact, since its withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 which followed a 22 year occupation of the country, Israel has routinely raided and violated southern Lebanon [1][2][3]. It also continues to occupy Shabaa Farms, which Lebanon claims is part of its territory, and continues to illegally hold thousands of Arabs including a number of Lebanese prisoners without charge.

Western media has condemned Hezbollah for starting this conflict and for shooting rockets into civilian areas. These public condemnations usually fail to mention that Hezbollah started shooting rockets only after Israel's aerial bombardment of Lebanon's civilians. Hezbollah leaders have, furthermore, defended their action to capture the two Israeli soldiers in order to facilitate an exchange of prisoners with Israel.

In an article in the Guardian with the title "We are defending our sovereignty", Ali Fayyad, a senior member of the executive committee of Hezbollah asserts: "In the context of the continued occupation, detention of prisoners and repeated Israeli attacks and incursions into Lebanese territory, the capture of the Israeli soldiers was entirely legitimate. The operation was fully in line with the Lebanese ministerial declaration, supported in parliament that stressed the right of the resistance to liberate occupied Lebanon against Israeli aggression. International law also allows peoples and states to protect their citizens and territory [4]."

Following the capture of the two soldiers, Israel launched a relentless bombing campaign targeting the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon to which Hezbollah responded by its own rocket attacks against Israel. The Lebanese population does not deserve to be killed and maimed just as innocent Israeli citizens do not deserve to be the target of Hezbollah rockets. An immediate cease fire is clearly warranted but stubbornly rejected by Israel, the US and the UK.

"Existential threat" to Israel

On the one hand Israel has been very blunt about its own strategic and barbaric goal. The army chief of staff, General Dan Halutz, said at the outset that his military would target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years" if the soldiers were not freed [5]. But, on the other hand, the military assault had been planned at least a whole year in advance and the capture of the two Israeli soldiers is only a pretext.

Backed by the US and the UK, Israel's real intension is far wider than the release of its captured soldiers which could have taken place with a cease fire and a simple exchange of prisoners as it did in 2004. Indeed, at first glance, it makes little sense for Israel to sacrifice 51 Israeli citizens including 33 Israel Defense Forces (IDF) casualties since July 12 [7], for the sake of two IDF soldiers.

Israeli leaders propagate their fear of what they call "an existential threat" to Israel by the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Iran-inspired Hamas and Hezbollah mass resistance movements. Indeed Israel suffered its first ever defeat by an Arab force at the hands of Hezbollah in its failed 22 year occupation of Lebanon. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have deep rooted social and political bases. These movements run schools, hospitals and an extensive welfare system, and enjoy the support of the great majority of Palestinians and Lebanese respectively and are democratically elected to defend the interests of their constituencies rather than any external force like Syria or Iran. They have now developed into formidable mass opposition movements to Israel.

But the emergence of Islamic resistance movements against Israel is the product of Israel's nearly four decades of illegal occupation of Palestine, its massive brutality against Palestinians, its wars of aggression against Arab neighbours and its 22 year occupation of Lebanon. According to Professor Stephen Zunes "Hezbollah's strength derives primarily from popular support within the Shiite Muslim minority in Lebanon which has suffered from heightened poverty and displacement as a result of the U.S.-backed Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon between 1978 and 2000" [8].

Israel has only its own leadership to blame for the emergence of armed resistance by Palestinians and Lebanese against its history of ruthless and violent conduct.

Israeli leaders have reacted hysterically to the disclosure of the Iranian nuclear plants at Natanz and Arak in 2002 despite the fact that the International Atomic Energy Agency has found no evidence of any diversion to any nuclear arms activities in Iran [9]. Israel. however, despite its own secret and massive nuclear arsenal and while continuing to refuse any visits by IAEA inspectors to its own nuclear plants, has joined the US in accusing Iran of developing a covert nuclear weaponization program, and has further vowed to stop it.

Israeli leaders have repeatedly called on the West to attack Iran, have threatened to do so themselves and have been making preparations for it. For example, on 5/11/2002, when the reformist Khatami was Iran's president and more than four months before the invasion and occupation of Iraq, Ariel Sharon, the then Israeli prime minister in an interview with the Times made the demand that the US should "attack Iran the day Iraq war ends" [10].

The election of Ahmadinejad, an ex-revolutionary guard leader, as Iran's new president in Summer 2005 signified a major turning point. His bold and radical positions against what he called "the Zionist regime" and his defiance against the US pressures have made him substantially popular both in the Arab street and in the Muslim world at large. This has profoundly increased Israeli leaders' rhetoric of "existential threat" and their resolve to attack Iran. Sunday Times on 11/12/2005 reported that Sharon had instructed the Israeli Defence Force to prepare itself for a massive air assault on Iran in 2006.

The victory of Hamas in January 2006 in the democratic elections in the occupied territories was the last straw. The two pro Iran resistance movements, Hamas and Hezbollah, who like Iran have taken radical positions against Israel, had to be dealt with as the first steps to a military strike on Iran.

Dismantling Hamas and Hezbollah before attack on Iran

It began with the starvation of the Palestinians in the occupied territories by Israel, the US and the EU for daring to vote for Hamas [11], followed by the military strikes at civilians in Gaza and the barbaric destruction of its only power plant, and the clampdown and the incarceration of Hamas parliamentarians and government in June.

Next it was the turn of Hezbollah, whose leaders had in fact predicted that Israel may attack Lebanon to pre-empt any action by Hezbollah if Iran is struck. Sheikh Naim Kassem, the deputy General Secretary of Hezbollah, envisaged the scenario that "Israel fired first to pre-empt any possible Hezbollah action if fellow Shi'ite Iran was attacked [12]."

The actual aim of Israel in its war on Lebanon is thus to annihilate or at least cripple the pro Iran Hezbollah resistance movement, to subjugate the country into a US and Israeli client state much like Egypt and Jordan and to prepare the ground for attacking Syria and Iran. A weakened Hezbollah and the assembly of Western "peacekeepers" in a buffer zone would prevent Hezbollah from taking any strong actions against Israel when Iran is attacked. These goals are to be achieved by inflicting a collective punishment and bombing a whole nation into submission with the complicity and support of the US and the UK governments.

The subsequent events have proven that Israel stands loyal to this aim. Hundreds of civilians, a third of whom are children, have so far been killed. Over 800,000 people have so far been displaced and the Lebanese civilian infrastructure is in ruins. Under the pretext of fighting the "terrorists," a whole nation has been subjected to massive punishment, continuously terrorized for nearly three weeks. Lebanese doctors have also reported the use of phosphorous incendiary bombs on civilians [13]. The military onslaught parallels and in some ways even exceeds the "shock and awe" campaign of Donald Rumsfeld in the assault on Iraq in March and Aril 2003.

Targeting civilians of any nationality, whether by states such as Israel, the US and the UK or by resistance movements such as Hezbollah and Hamas, is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law. The UN relief chief has condemned Israeli strikes as war crimes and illegal under humanitarian law for being indiscriminate and disproportionate [30], but the aggression and the war crimes have continued with the full complicity of the US and the UK. These include the bombing of a UN post on July 26th killing four unarmed UN observers, which the UN Secretary General Kofi Annan described as "apparently deliberate," and the horrific massacre in Qana on July 30th in which more than 50 people including 34 children were killed.

Truth as the first victim of war

Israel has right from the start accused Iran for being behind Hezbollah's raid to capture two soldiers and for providing it with missiles and military training. Iran has denied all the charges and as in the past has declared that it only gives spiritual, moral and political support to the resistance movement but no financial or military aid. Though there has been no evidence that Iran was in any way involved in the decision made by Hezbollah to capture the two Israeli soldiers, baseless speculations are commonplace [14].

Meanwhile the pro Israel and US media have followed their leaders, launching a campaign of lies about the origin of the conflict designed to put the ultimate blame on Syria and Iran. Their mainstream news coverage suffers from a deliberate and ruthless suppression of the truth in claiming that the conflict started with the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah.

Never mind that the real timeline for the recent conflict started with the refusal of Israel and its US and European allies to recognize the democratically elected Hamas government in an election proposed and endorsed by the US and the EU. Never mind the crucial events of June 9th when an Israeli missile attack in the Gaza beach massacred a Palestinian family of seven [15]. Never mind another IDF missile attack on June 13th which killed nine Palestinian civilians and two activists [16]. Never mind that on June 24 , precisely one day before the capture of the soldier, Israel kidnapped a Palestinian doctor and his brother from Gaza [17], an event unreported and conveniently suppressed even later in the pro Israel western media.

Never mind the abduction and imprisonment of dozens of democratically elected parliamentary representatives and cabinet members of Hamas government [16] and the destruction of Gaza's infrastructure by Israel in retaliation for the capture of a single Israeli soldier by Hamas fighters.

Never mind that in Lebanon itself the timeline for the present war began, not with the capture of the two Israeli soldiers in July, but rather, as reported in the Guardian on July 20, 2006 by Tariq Ali, [18] several weeks earlier in May when Israel raided Lebanon to assassinate two activists from a Palestinian splinter group and then bombed Hezbollah's strongholds in southern Lebanon. These events lead to more border clashes before July 12. As Fairness and Accuracy In Media (FAIR) noted: "This intense fighting was the prelude to the all-out warfare that began on July 12, portrayed in U.S. media as beginning with an attack out of the blue by Hezbollah [29]." Furthermore, Israel's massive air and land operations could not possibly have been in response to the abduction of the two soldiers. FAIR concluded that Israeli action "was not a spontaneous reaction to aggression but a well-planned operation that was years in the making [29]."

Roots of the conflict

Tony Blair has now sheepishly followed George Bush to declare that an arc of extremists consisting of Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran is the root cause of problems in the Middle East; a charge reminiscent of Bush's axis of evil speech in January 2002.

As Tony Blair was explaining his new thesis on the roots of the conflict, the Israeli elite led by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu were preparing to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, an act which drew anger in Britain [19]. Menachem Begin who in later years twice became Israel's prime minister, was one of the Irgun leaders in charge of that operation in 1946, in which 92 people died, mostly civilians including 28 British, 41 Arab, and 17 Jewish [19].

While the capture of an IDF soldier in Gaza was denounced so loudly by the pro Israel media, the kidnapping of two Palestinian brothers [17] the night before by IDF was not even mentioned in western newspapers or Radio and TV reports. This is a grim reminder that only Israeli lives are important. Whoever resists Israel is automatically labelled as terrorist, while Israel's own crimes are often forgiven and forgotten. In a July 4th Parliamentary debate, British MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, himself Jewish, while condemning the kidnapping of the Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit reminded his colleagues that such acts were not exclusive to Palestinians. He stated "before Israel gained independence, Jewish terrorists led by two future Prime Ministers of Israel, Begin and Shamir, one of whom was a murderer and an assassin, kidnapped two British sergeants, hanged them and booby-trapped their bodies [20]."

Professor Stephen R. Shalom explains how some 700,000 Palestinians became refugees after Israel was established [27]:

"There is no longer any serious doubt that many Palestinians were forcibly expelled. The exact numbers driven out versus those who panicked or simply sought safety is still contested, but what permits us to say that all were victims of ethnic cleansing is that Israeli officials refused to allow any of them to return."

He then answers the question: "Why did Israel expel the Palestinians?"

"In part to remove a potential fifth column. In part to obtain their property. In part to make room for more Jewish immigrants. But mostly because the notion of a Jewish state with a large non-Jewish minority was extremely awkward for Israeli leaders. Indeed, because Israel took over some territory intended for the Palestinian state, there had actually been an Arab majority living within the borders of Israel. Nor was the idea of expelling Palestinians something that just emerged in the 1948 war. In 1937, Ben-Gurion had written to his son, 'We will expel the Arabs and take their places ... with the force at our disposal.'"

The refugee problem, one of the major injustices against the Palestinian population affecting the present situation, was addressed back in December 1948 by Resolution 194 of the UN General Assembly, which declared that "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so" and that "compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." But this was never honored by Israel leading to a 58-year old Palestinian refugee problem. Subsequent resolutions 242, 338 and others have called on Israel to withdraw from Palestinian lands. These have yet to be implemented after 39 years.

Given that Israel is currently in breach of over 60 UN resolutions, some passed decades ago, it is grossly hypocritical that the US has demanded, as a precondition for a cease fire, the implementation of the UN resolution 1559 in 2004, which calls the disarming of Hezbollah,[24]. For example Israel is still in breach of international law for not compensating Lebanon after it bombed the Beirut airport back in 1968. (UN Resolution 262)

Numerous Israeli governments have done their own populations as well as those in the neighboring Arab states grave disservice by chronically ignoring the demands of the international community, incessantly pursuing hostile bully tactics and adopting might-makes-right diplomacy.

Israel has also served as the regional guard-dog of the western powers in the Middle East. This role was clearly proven when Israel joined Britain and France to attack Egypt in 1956 when Gamal Abdul Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. This is why the West equips Israel with the most sophisticated arms, supports its large nuclear arsenal and labels as terrorists all those who resist this hegemony, principally Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran.

Decades of US-backed militarism and expansionist policies have not reduced the ugly specter of terrorism on the Israeli populous. And facilitating another conflict with Iran or Syria will certainly not remedy this situation.

US-UK project for a new Middle East

The Bush administration has shown its full backing of the savage assault on Lebanon and the Israeli war crimes as it has rushed the delivery of at least 100 GBU 28 bunker buster bombs [21] containing depleted uranium warheads by the United States to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon transported, as it has now emerged, through an airport in Scotland [22].

The unconditional support by Bush, Blair and the pro Israel western media for this savage assault against Lebanon and their firm opposition to a cease fire in defiance of the rest of international community is however far more than just another instance of the West's historical acquiescence for Israel's aggressions against Palestinians and Arabs. It is not just more of the same pro Israel policies that the world has seen for some six decades since the formation of that state in 1948. Since 9/11, Israel has also become the US and UK's closest ally in the so-called "war on terror."

By blaming Syria and Iran for the conflict in Lebanon, the US and the UK governments are preparing the public opinion for outright military interventions against these countries, which will represent the next chapter in the unfolding neo-conservative Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

PNAC aims to use the overwhelming military power of the US under the pretext of "democratization" to replace all defiant regimes in the Middle East with pro US client states. Given the rise of China and India as the new economic super powers, the declining US imperial power would have to resort to its military superiority to dominate the whole of the Middle East and Central Asia in order to control vast energy resources.

The US and UK governments have organized a propaganda campaign to blame Syria and Iran for the failures of American policies throughout the Middle East: The latter countries now stand accused of bringing about the catastrophe which has befallen Iraq after the illegal and criminal invasion of that country and for the death of the so-called "Road Map" in Palestine.

The US Senate has unanimously passed a resolution, which supports Israel unconditionally in its criminal assault on Lebanon and demands further political and economic sanctions against Syria and Iran. The House of Representatives has with very little dissent passed a similar resolution.

What has shocked the western public is not just the horrifying war crimes but that such a calamity is committed by Israel with US complicity against a nation under a pro western government, a nation whose prime minister only a few weeks ago met George W. Bush in the While House. The question then is raised why is such a devastating blow to a pro-western government warranted at this time?

In her visit to Lebanon and Israel this week, Condoleezza Rice has opposed any immediate ceasefire on the grounds that one needs to create the conditions for a durable cessation of violence, namely the crippling of Hezbollah. She has proudly announced that the barbaric war waged by Israel to dismantle Hezbollah is the "birth pangs" of a new Middle East.

It is now crystal clear that the American promise for a new Middle East can only be brought about with a forceful regime change in Iran. Thus, the US-UK support for the Israeli attack on Lebanon and the free reign the Israeli military has for its war crimes against the people of Lebanon, are essential and worth the price to remove an important obstacle in the decisive strike against the ultimate enemy: Iran.


Nuking Iran to pre-empt its nukes

The anti-Iran propaganda over Lebanon is now combined with the existing three year US-led campaign to accuse Iran of developing nuclear weapons. This campaign has been carried out at the UN Security Council, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and just about every international forum where the US has influence.

However, the IAEA has failed to find any evidence of a nuclear weapons program in the country even after over three years of intensive and intrusive visits to Iranian nuclear plants [9]. Iran has publicly denounced nuclear weapons and calls on the West to respect its inalienable rights to a civilian nuclear program granted by the Non Proliferation Treaty.

These two irreconcilable positions will lead to a major international crisis. Given the Israel-US-UK entrenched positions, the possibility of military confrontation becomes more and more likely.

The double-edged campaign of accusation by Israel-US-UK against Iran over its nuclear program, and "state sponsor of terrorism" in Lebanon has succeeded in creating enough hysteric fear as to make war a serious option. The charges against Iran have the same substance and play the same function as those used in the run-up to the disastrous invasion of Iraq.

Given Bush's terrible performance in the current opinion polls and a serious prospect of a Republican loss in the US Congress in the November elections, the antiwar movement and the Iranian community must consider seriously the chance of a US attack on Iran in the coming months. Such an attack will serve to raise Bush's popularity for the coming elections albeit for a short time.

Israel and the US having already rolled back Lebanon for 20 years would have no qualms about carpet bombing and completely destroying Iran. Iran's Islamic regime has been demonized for decades and its president has called for the destruction of the "Zionist regime."

In fact, as reported by Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker [25], the US war on Iran has already entered into its operational phase. Hersh said the administration is fomenting ethnic conflict inside the country, calling for regime change and funding exiled pro-US opposition forces to destabilize Iran under the guise of "democracy."

If as a result of an Israel/US air assault on the country, Iran responds in any effective way, for example by striking American military forces in Iraq which are exposed to guerrilla attacks and missiles from Iran, the voices Cheney and Rumsfeld and other "nuclear hawks" will be strengthened.

As an ex-CIA officer stated in the American Conservative magazine "The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President **** Cheney's office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons. Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites [26]."

The possible use of nuclear weapons in an attack on Iran was also highlighted in Seymour Hersh last April [25]. Subsequently, George W. Bush refused to rule out the possibility of employing nuclear weapons against Iran.

The "rational justification" for such an extraordinary crime would be that it is the only method to destroy Iran's nuclear plants that are fortified deep underground.

The absurd logic of using nukes against Iran to prevent it from having nukes is beyond any sound mind. In fact, it only makes sense when put in the context of the profoundly criminal and inhuman philosophies employed by its perpetrators. As with Hiroshima and Nagasaki , the "moral justification" for the use of the nuclear bomb would be proclaimed on the grounds of self-defense and saving American lives.

Attack on Iran: a major global conflagration

It goes without saying that such prospects for the present conflict will certainly lead to a major humanitarian catastrophe for Iranian people as well as a major conflagration of violence in the Middle East and beyond. It will not be confined to a sharp increase in the price of oil and a subsequent economic downturn and misery for billions of people around the world.

An assault on Iran, which is considered by Muslims all around the world as leading the resistance against western hypocrisy and the US-UK support for Israeli tyranny, oppression and atrocities, will inflame the wrath of millions of people across the globe resulting in massive unrest and uprisings throughout the Islamic world.

Senator John McCain the Republican hopeful for US presidential elections supports the option of military action against Iran. Asked if the U.S. might find itself embroiled in two wars at once, McCain responded point blank: "I think we could have Armageddon." [28]

Bombings are rarely enough to foster regime change. In times of national emergency the people always flock to the government for protection and national solidarity. This principle was proven in America after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 where public support for George W. Bush was an all time high. Similarly for Iran, the question of internal democratic aspirations was put on hold during the terrible Iran-Iraq war, in which the US and the west were caught selling chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Thus the US will not be able to accomplish its goal of regime change in Iran in the short term. But it could very well succeed in ruining the entire country and turning it into another Afghanistan.

War opposition

Only a strong and broad antiwar movement in the US, UK and the rest of the western world can stop this regional and global disaster. The defiance by Russia and China in the UN Security Council can at most delay the imposition of sanctions and military attack on Iran but will not be able to prevent it as the run-up in the invasion of Iraq has proved.

The doctrine of pre-emptive strike has become an integral part of the Bush administration's warfare strategy and the leadership of the Republican and Democratic parties in the US are strongly united in characterizing Iran as US's number one enemy, the principal state sponsor of terrorism and a fundamental threat to global peace and security, which has to be dealt with sooner than later.

Similarly, the disastrous consequences of the Iraqi invasion by Iran will not deter the US in launching a war against the Iranian regime that American leaders accuse of destabilizing the democratic process in Iraq. An assault on Iran will be justified to the US public as the remedy to all ills in the region.

For all these reasons, it is only pressure by the Western public opinion that can change the balance of forces against the warmongers in the US.

Negotiations with Iran without preconditions

At the moment the US with full support from the UK is leading a diplomatic effort in the United Nations Security Council to isolate Iran and justify a military strike. The so-called "incentive" package proposed by the five permanent members of the Security Council plus Germany requires Iran to suspend its enrichment program before any negotiations begin. In this, the US insists that Iran concede the main objective of the negotiations before they even start. It is either an extremely arrogant plan or one designed to fail on purpose.

Iran has announced that the package is acceptable [23] as a basis for the negotiations but the demand for suspension of uranium enrichment as a precondition for the negotiations is unacceptable.

The US and the UK governments have no interest in negotiations and a resolution of the Iranian nuclear issue by diplomacy, which was shown by the leaked letter of John Sawers, Britain's Foreign Office political director, reported by Times-on-line on 22/3/2006. They have thus formulated the "incentive" package so as to be unacceptable to Iran They are determined to obtain in the UN Security Council a chapter VII based resolution, which concerns threats to global security, and demand that Iran halt its uranium enrichment program. Such a resolution can then be used for imposition of sanctions and military strikes against Iran as Russia and China are well aware of with their defiance to the US and UK pressure.

Iran has the support of the 114 member Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) that has defended Iran's peaceful nuclear program in their ministerial meeting in the end of May this year in Malaysia. NAM is second only to the UN in terms of the number of member states and aims to represent the political, economic and cultural interests of the developing world.

Iran has also obtained the support of the 57 nations of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) who in their Foreign Ministers Council meeting in Baku in June this year have demanded negotiations with Iran without any precondition.

Furthermore, there are a number of reports to the effect that Kofi Annan, Mohammad ElBaradei, China, Russia and even Germany support Iran to continue a research and development program for enrichment while suspending enrichment on an industrial scale, a position acceptable to Iran.

In this setting, pressure by the public in the West can actually defeat the disingenuous and vile US-UK led diplomacy in the UN Security Council against Iran. It is thus imperative that the anti-war movement around the world organizes an effective campaign, including lobbying parliamentarians and statesmen, demanding immediate and direct US negotiations with Iran without any preconditions. Without any mandate from the UN Security Council, the US and UK alliance will be in disarray as they will find it extremely difficult to take unilateral military action on Iran.

Iranian community should stand up with a united voice

A key role can and must be played by the several million strong Iranian communities in the western world who can exert a decisive impact on the public opinion and the governments of the countries they reside. The apparent complacency of the Iraqi expatriate community countries and the publicity given by the western media to figures such as Ahmad Chalabi greatly facilitated the illegal invasion of their county with its catastrophic consequences.

Although various groups of Iranians in the west have already raised their voice against any attack on Iran, the overwhelming majority while inherently antiwar have remained inactive and in denial that an assault on Iran can actually take place. It is vital that this complacency be strongly challenged.

Regardless of attitudes towards the Islamic Republic and human rights issues inside the country, Iranians should without any hesitation and reservation stand up and organize themselves in the anti war movement against the rapid escalation of threats against Iran and call for immediate and unconditional negotiations with Iran.

Defending Iran against an imminent illegal military attack by Israel-US-UK is not tantamount in any way to politically supporting the Islamic Republic. It is simply to defend the sovereignty of a nation and the right of self-determination of Iranian people to handle and resolve their own problems without any foreign state intervention.

The war waged by Israel against Lebanon and the charges against Iran have made the task of defending the people of Iran inseparable from defending the people of Lebanon and Syria as well as the people of Palestine. By joining these solidarity movements and calling for an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon and an exchange of prisoners, Iranians should find their allies in opposing an attack on Iran.

Today there is still time to prevent the total annihilation and disintegration of Iran, tomorrow it may be too late.
 

jrkarp

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Hey oz, post something original, credit your source, or stay out of this. You add absolutely nothing to the discussion by posting bull**** like that.

Are you capable of actually adding something to this discussion? You don't have to agree with any of us, but nothing you have posted in this thread so far has done anything to enhance the discussion. In fact, your behavior has shown you to be ignorant and immature.

I'll post the source for you: ZNet |Israel/Palestine | Wake Up Call to Iranian Communities Around the World
 

max silver

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There does seem to be some worthwhile information contained in that post. A good portion of it is obviously pro-Iranian propoganda, but it does nicely in giving an alternative reasoning behind the current Israeli offensive in Lebanon. I just wish there was a non-biased news source that one could trust though, the western media paints Israel as some sort of Angel of Democracy who is saving the world from terrorists, while the alternative viewpoints tend to demonize Israel and the US for every action that they take.
 

BioHazzard

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That article is a piece of garbage produced by a bunch of anti social left wing extremists that work for Z Communication.

It is a masterpiece of distorting the truth and twisting the facts.

All those rockets the Hizballah scumbags have been shooting off, were all from Syria and Iran. And they can still lie with a straight face. lol

The only usefulness of that piece of garbage is to show how twisted some people's mind really is.
 
swole210

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If i may say so without getting introuble, as I have never had anything negative to say to any one on this board EVER, ozwizzle....YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!!!!! Sorry mods:eek: ! Had to let that one go!
 

BioHazzard

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Hezbollah's War Crimes
Investor's Business Daily: Hezbollah's War Crimes

Posted 8/2/2006

Global War On Terrorism: Jimmy Carter says it's "inhumane and counterproductive" for Israel "to punish civilian populations" for Hezbollah's aggression. If you hadn't helped overthrow the Shah of Iran, Jimmy, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Our former president made this statement in a Washington Post op-ed in which the man who helped midwife the habitat for inhumanity that is Iran spouted the standard liberal dogma about cease-fires and something called "lasting peace."

He forgets that Hezbollah is the spawn of Iran, and Iran is the spawn of his failed foreign policy. Carter, upon taking office in 1977, declared that advancing "human rights" was among his highest priorities. America's ally, the Shah of Iran, was one of his first targets, with Carter chastising him for his human rights record and withdrawing America's support.

When Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the shah in February 1979, he established the first modern Islamofascist regime, a role model for the Taliban and the jihadists to follow, such as al-Qaida and Hezbollah.

While Carter claims it is "inhumane" for Israel to "punish" civilians, he forgets it is a war crime to use them as human shields. Hezbollah is guilty of war crimes, and Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's chief terrorist, is a war criminal for the indiscriminate killing of Israeli civilians and for using Lebanese civilians as human shields.

As Israeli Defense Force videos show, Hezbollah likes to park its Katyusha rocket launchers next to apartment buildings like the one destroyed in Qana. The IDF showed the world press footage of Hezbollah rocket launchers being driven into Qana, parked behind and alongside civilian buildings, from where they would launch their rockets against Israeli civilians in Kiryat Shemona, Afula and Ma'alot.
Over the last three weeks, at least 150 rockets have been fired into northern Israeli towns from Qana. The specific building hit had been a frequent shelter for Hezbollah terrorists, who would dart inside after firing their unguided rockets with warheads full of tiny ball bearings designed to indiscriminately kill and maim.
Hezbollah is violating Article 58 of Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions, which requires parties to a conflict to "avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas." Hezbollah uses civilian homes and neighborhoods to store and launch rockets.

Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." This means that the building in Qana where Hezbollah was hiding its launchers was a legitimate military target.

Article 37 of Protocol 1, ratified in 1979, says: "It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy." It lists three types of perfidy; the third is "the feigning of civilian, noncombatant status." That is what Hezbollah does when it disguises its fighters as civilians and hides and launches missiles in Qana and elsewhere.

In a story in the Sydney Sunday Herald Sun of July 30, photos of a Christian area of Beirut called Wadi Chahour that had been smuggled out of Lebanon were published. One showed the remnants of an Iranian-made Hezbollah rocket in the middle of a residential block hit in an Israeli retaliatory airstrike.

An Australian who witnessed the strike told the Herald Sun: "Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets." He said, "Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis."

Iran and its puppet Hezbollah have bigger plans with bigger rockets. Also on Tuesday, Iran's mad hatter, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, rejected a U.N. Security Council resolution that would give Iran until Aug. 31 to suspend its uranium enrichment program. Today, Katyushas. Tomorrow, a Shahab-3 with a nuke?

If tomorrow Hezbollah and Hamas laid down all their weapons, there would be instant peace. If tomorrow Israel laid down all its weapons, there would be another Holocaust. Thanks, Jimmy.
 

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How can anyone with half a brain in their head not realize that Hezbollah is part of an evil jihadist terror movement that killed more than 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and continues to blow up innocents thruout the world? Israel is doing the dirty work for the entire infidel world.
 
kwyckemynd00

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How can anyone with half a brain in their head not realize that Hezbollah is part of an evil jihadist terror movement that killed more than 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and continues to blow up innocents thruout the world? Israel is doing the dirty work for the entire infidel world.
People are really stupid. :)
 

judge-mental

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I'm not sure if your news showed it, but Israelly delta forces raided a hospital used by the Hizaballa as headquarters deep within the Baq'a in lebanon near the syrian border, flying in more than 200 fighters on helicopters. they stormed the buildings taking valueable prisoners and information, deep in enemy teritory and leaving without any casualties. now that's how we do business. also I'm super impressed by the Israelly field intelligence in this war. they are ON the mothercukers.


also, I saw an interview with nick robertson of CNN and he said that his footage was being directed and ordered by Hizballa communication officers. lol.
Max silver if you think the western media is pro Israel boy you have it wrong. you have NO idea of what is really happening, take it from a man who's there. if you have a question do ask and I'll try to answer.
 
BigVrunga

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Another comment on the media's 'pro Hezbollah' coverage...they make it sound like they can go toe to toe with the Israeli military and go on and on about their Katyusha rockets, blah blah blah.

No doubt their fragmentation equipped rockets are causing some disarray, but its amazing to think that a vigilante force whose primary weapon was built by the Russians WWII really has much, if any chance, against the 600,000+ strong, modern weapons technology equipped Israeli armed forces. Guerllia tactics or no.

Katyusha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's starting to piss me off, the UN's 'condemnation' of the Israeli strikes. These crazy bastards want to blow up the whole of western civilization with bombs strapped to young men and women (who have been brainwashed into beliving being a 'martyr' for there crazy-ass extreemist cause is more important than life).

Its ****ing 2006. Where's my cybernetic implants? Where's the mars base? Where's my goddamn affordable alternative energy? All being pushed to the wayside so the world can focus on straightening out a bunch of crazy bastards who are trying to convert the whole planet to a ass backwards archaic fundamentalist maniacal 'religion of peace'. Get the **** out of here with that ****!

Destroy them all, and let Allah sort them out.

BV
 
kwyckemynd00

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I just heard the media reporting:

"Hezbollah says it will not agree to any cease fire so long as Israel is still within Lebanese borders." - FOX Reporter

The idiots act as if Hezbollah wasn't sending 80-100 rockets per MONTH into Israel for, BEFORE the war!
 

BioHazzard

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LOL I love the part where all the foreign powers are talking about disarming the Hizballah, moving the Lebanese Army to take over the south, and bring in international peacekeepers.

But no one asks if Hizballah would go along with that pie in the sky dream... :D The Islamo facist terrorists are not only tools of their terror mastermind in Tehran, they themselves are psychopaths whose whole lives have been involved in bloodshed. Nasrallah is the talking head. The guy behind the scene is the master terrorist that has been the mastermind behind the Beirut carbombing of the American Embassy that killed over 200 marines. He is the mastermind behind the kidnapping and holding of western hostages in the 80's. This psychopath is hell bend on killing Westerns and Jews and any infidel. He has a life long track record.

It is just a pipedream that Hizballah will simply morph into a peaceful political force. That is along the same line of wishful thinking that Al Qaeda will become Amnesty International of Peaceful Islam. :rolleyes:
 
fbxdan

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Good ol' Pat does it again. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqhKkiB83JU"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia] Listen to what this man says, he actually has a grip on this situation. He speeks the truth
 
fbxdan

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Another good one: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jFZDbDyinw"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia] Pats got balls
 
BigVrunga

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NICE posting fbxdan. I agree with him 100%. Gotta love the Terminator soundtrack :)

BV
 
fbxdan

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Haha, the terminator soundtrack is a nice touch. Pat seems to be right on the money alot of time. I couldn't have explained it better myself.
 

BioHazzard

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Unfortunately, Pat is inconsequential these days. Pat is intelligent but he can't bring home the bacon, so to speak.

I don't know those who profess undying love for him, truly understand his hard core philosophy or just simply latching onto anything that rips into Bush.
 
BigVrunga

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I don't know those who profess undying love for him, truly understand his hard core philosophy or just simply latching onto anything that rips into Bush.
I dont have undying love for him, but what he said in those two videos was the truth. Moreso than anything else we've seen from the meida recently, anyway.

BV
 

BioHazzard

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I dont have undying love for him, but what he said in those two videos was the truth. Moreso than anything else we've seen from the meida recently, anyway.

BV
Not really. Pat is wrong on many things on that first interview. He claimed that Israel is destroying Lebanon's democracy. Now, that is pure crap. He is wrong on that. Nobody believes that Lebanese democracy is under assault. The majority of Lebanese hate the Hizballah and what they brought to Lebanon. They can't say that on TV b/c Hizballah thugs will kill them. The only one who can criticise Hizballah is Walib Jumblatt, the Druce chieftain/warlord. So, all the alleged Lebanese support for Hizballah is just crap. People who profess to be skeptical about everything, are too quickly to believe what they hear or see from Al Manar and Al jazeera. Selective objectivity. lol

Everybody is happy that Hizballah is getting neutered and are rotten glad that the Israelis are doing it for them. But they can't say that publicly. You have to appear to criticize Israel and sympathize with your Arab brethens. Nothing is worse than being seen as a Zionist sympathizer.

Pat also attributed to Zarqawi for initing Sunni-Sh1te civil war. That is a betrayal of his lack of understanding of the situation on the ground there. First of all, there is no civil war. You can't have a civil war when one side cannot field an army. The Sunnis are simply out gunned and out manned. They are down to 15% of the population and the country's military and police are under Sh1te and Kurds' control. The Sunnis Baathist deadenders are resorting to setting off carbombs to murder Sh1tes while Sh1tes just go in and settle old scores. This has been going on before Zarqawi. The Sh1te and Kurdish death squats have been systematically hunting down their Sunni oppressors. They have a long list they are working off. The settling of scores have been going on since Saddam's overthrown.

People who talk about civil war, do not understand what is actually going on over there.

In short, Pat is not adding anything to the table there. He is just as confused as most.
 

BioHazzard

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In that second interview, Pat is reading the same script that Jim Carter has been reading from. Unfortunately for both, they failed to check out the actual Hizballah targets embedded in those sites that Israel hits.

It is utter nonsense to claim that Israeli were inflicting punishment on the Lebanese paper. No, it isn't that Israel is so stupid as to attack Lebanese civilians. The stupidity is in Pat and Carter for not checking out the facts.

They read in the media that "Israel bombed Beirut" and actually ignorant enough to think Israel was just bombing Beirut indiscriminately. :rolleyes: Yeah, I am sure Israel just want to waste ammo blindly. Everything Israel hits has a purpose for destroying. Israeli has been hitting Hizballah targets embedded inside that particular sites that IDF attacked. DUH!!! Do you think the Israelis are really that stupid as to think that bombing Lebanese is going to neutralize Hizballah! C'mon!!!! Wake up! lol No, the Israelis are anything but stupid. The stupidity is most likely on your part. lol

When people are totally puzzled at how blatantly stupid Israel is, they should stop and think for a moment. Because in reality, the stupidity is more than likely on your part, for failing to find out what actually is going on. If you wonder how Israel can be this stupid, than you are right, Israel is not that stupid, and the stupidity is on your part indeed, b/c you are drawing conclusions without knowing the complete facts. LOL

P.S. I am using the 'YOU' in a generic sense, and it is obivously not directed toward anyone in particular.
 
fbxdan

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Unfortunately, Pat is inconsequential these days. Pat is intelligent but he can't bring home the bacon, so to speak.

I don't know those who profess undying love for him, truly understand his hard core philosophy or just simply latching onto anything that rips into Bush.
I don't have an undying love for Pat, but I do agree with him on many things politically. At least he's for securing our borders unlike bushy.
 
fbxdan

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Not really. Pat is wrong on many things on that first interview. He claimed that Israel is destroying Lebanon's democracy. Now, that is pure crap. He is wrong on that. Nobody believes that Lebanese democracy is under assault. The majority of Lebanese hate the Hizballah and what they brought to Lebanon. They can't say that on TV b/c Hizballah thugs will kill them. The only one who can criticise Hizballah is Walib Jumblatt, the Druce chieftain/warlord. So, all the alleged Lebanese support for Hizballah is just crap. People who profess to be skeptical about everything, are too quickly to believe what they hear or see from Al Manar and Al jazeera. Selective objectivity. lol

Everybody is happy that Hizballah is getting neutered and are rotten glad that the Israelis are doing it for them. But they can't say that publicly. You have to appear to criticize Israel and sympathize with your Arab brethens. Nothing is worse than being seen as a Zionist sympathizer.

Pat also attributed to Zarqawi for initing Sunni-Sh1te civil war. That is a betrayal of his lack of understanding of the situation on the ground there. First of all, there is no civil war. You can't have a civil war when one side cannot field an army. The Sunnis are simply out gunned and out manned. They are down to 15% of the population and the country's military and police are under Sh1te and Kurds' control. The Sunnis Baathist deadenders are resorting to setting off carbombs to murder Sh1tes while Sh1tes just go in and settle old scores. This has been going on before Zarqawi. The Sh1te and Kurdish death squats have been systematically hunting down their Sunni oppressors. They have a long list they are working off. The settling of scores have been going on since Saddam's overthrown.

People who talk about civil war, do not understand what is actually going on over there.

In short, Pat is not adding anything to the table there. He is just as confused as most.
Yes, obviously Israel can do know wrong... They are always right, 100% of the time.:rolleyes:
 
BigVrunga

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Yes, obviously Israel can do know wrong... They are always right, 100% of the time.
I would tend to side with Israel over this conflict, if only because they're on 'our' side, and because of the situation in the world today Americans are hated by the people Israel is fighting.

From a purely human perspective though, its all total bull****. Human civilization has been around for 15,000 years and we'll still fight like a bunch of jungle bound chimpanzees. Pathetic, really.

BV
 

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In that second interview, Pat is reading the same script that Jim Carter has been reading from. Unfortunately for both, they failed to check out the actual Hizballah targets embedded in those sites that Israel hits.

It is utter nonsense to claim that Israeli were inflicting punishment on the Lebanese paper. No, it isn't that Israel is so stupid as to attack Lebanese civilians. The stupidity is in Pat and Carter for not checking out the facts.

They read in the media that "Israel bombed Beirut" and actually ignorant enough to think Israel was just bombing Beirut indiscriminately. :rolleyes: Yeah, I am sure Israel just want to waste ammo blindly. Everything Israel hits has a purpose for destroying. Israeli has been hitting Hizballah targets embedded inside that particular sites that IDF attacked. DUH!!! Do you think the Israelis are really that stupid as to think that bombing Lebanese is going to neutralize Hizballah! C'mon!!!! Wake up! lol No, the Israelis are anything but stupid. The stupidity is most likely on your part. lol

When people are totally puzzled at how blatantly stupid Israel is, they should stop and think for a moment. Because in reality, the stupidity is more than likely on your part, for failing to find out what actually is going on. If you wonder how Israel can be this stupid, than you are right, Israel is not that stupid, and the stupidity is on your part indeed, b/c you are drawing conclusions without knowing the complete facts. LOL

P.S. I am using the 'YOU' in a generic sense, and it is obivously not directed toward anyone in particular.

I don't think people are calling Israel stupid here, rather questioning their means of going after Hizbollah. They seem to be rather ruthless in their bombing of Beirut, with a seeming lack of concern for civilian casualties, all under the guise of attacking Hizbollah holdings. I just don't see the justification of bombing a countries infrastructure into the stone age in order to weed out some terrorists. Where do you draw the line? The blatant lack of regard for human life is what I find most appalling about this whole situation. Are you going to tell me that the UN outpost that was bombed into oblivion was a Hizbollah target as well?

Call me liberal if you like, bleeding heart, whatever, but once we lost compassion how are we any better than the terrorists that we profess to be after? You can't honestly tell me you actually believe that somebody who just had their city demolished by air strikes is happy about it because Hizbollah may be weakened somewhat.

I wholeheartedly agree with Buchanan's assessment (whether Jimmy Carter said it before I really don't give a rat's ass about) that the reason the middle East hates the US so much is because of it's actions, not just for it's existence.
 

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I don't think people are calling Israel stupid here, rather questioning their means of going after Hizbollah. They seem to be rather ruthless in their bombing of Beirut, with a seeming lack of concern for civilian casualties, all under the guise of attacking Hizbollah holdings. I just don't see the justification of bombing a countries infrastructure into the stone age in order to weed out some terrorists. Where do you draw the line? The blatant lack of regard for human life is what I find most appalling about this whole situation. Are you going to tell me that the UN outpost that was bombed into oblivion was a Hizbollah target as well?

Call me liberal if you like, bleeding heart, whatever, but once we lost compassion how are we any better than the terrorists that we profess to be after? You can't honestly tell me you actually believe that somebody who just had their city demolished by air strikes is happy about it because Hizbollah may be weakened somewhat.

I wholeheartedly agree with Buchanan's assessment (whether Jimmy Carter said it before I really don't give a rat's ass about) that the reason the middle East hates the US so much is because of it's actions, not just for it's existence.

:goodpost:
 

BioHazzard

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I would tend to side with Israel over this conflict, if only because they're on 'our' side, and because of the situation in the world today Americans are hated by the people Israel is fighting.

From a purely human perspective though, its all total bull****. Human civilization has been around for 15,000 years and we'll still fight like a bunch of jungle bound chimpanzees. Pathetic, really.

BV
Of course, I would rather be planning my next vacation to Mars and beyond. When I was growing up, we were told that by 2000, we would be colonizing Mars, driving cars that fly, no longer suffering from illness and disease, enjoying abundant and free energy. There would be no more war nor hunger. Humanity would be devoting all its effort and energy to self enlightenment and art and culture... Blahblahblah... I have been LIED TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

BioHazzard

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I don't think people are calling Israel stupid here, rather questioning their means of going after Hizbollah. They seem to be rather ruthless in their bombing of Beirut, with a seeming lack of concern for civilian casualties, all under the guise of attacking Hizbollah holdings. I just don't see the justification of bombing a countries infrastructure into the stone age in order to weed out some terrorists. Where do you draw the line? The blatant lack of regard for human life is what I find most appalling about this whole situation. Are you going to tell me that the UN outpost that was bombed into oblivion was a Hizbollah target as well?

Call me liberal if you like, bleeding heart, whatever, but once we lost compassion how are we any better than the terrorists that we profess to be after? You can't honestly tell me you actually believe that somebody who just had their city demolished by air strikes is happy about it because Hizbollah may be weakened somewhat.

I wholeheartedly agree with Buchanan's assessment (whether Jimmy Carter said it before I really don't give a rat's ass about) that the reason the middle East hates the US so much is because of it's actions, not just for it's existence.
I will address the attack on the UN post later, as there is an article I want to refer to but can't locate it at the moment.

As for other part, sadly you got your culprit wrong. You should be complaining about Hizballah positioning rockets INSIDE civilian homes, forcing civilians to stay put at gun point, firing from civilian centers with the full intention of drawing returning fire onto civilians. You should be venting your virulent hatred toward the Hizballah, who is the main cause of these war crimes against the Lebanese civilians, let along the atrocities against Israeli civilians using antipersonnel rockets. If it wasn't for their direct action and continued action, those Lebanese would still be able to live in peace and be alive. Israel would never for a million years, attacks them. Israel would be rotten glad IF Hizballah could be eliminated with zero collateral damage. They got hurt simply because Hizballah use them as human shields. Don't take my words for it. Refer to the comment by UN Humanitarian Chief. UN humanitarian chief blasts Hizbullah | Jerusalem Post

If you are truly honest, then you should be protesting about Hizballah's blatant disregard for human life and blatant violation of Geneva Convention. You should be demanding that they stop using cilivian home to store rockets and ammo, to stop firing inside or near civilian centers, stop firing from behind women and children. You should be demanding that they stop firing anti personnel into civilian centers in Israel.

If you manage to get them to stop those war criminal violation of Geneva Convention, you would succeed in saving Lebanese, not to mention Israeli civilians.

Everybody sympathizes with the blight and suffering of the civilians on both side. The suffering of the cilivians on both sides, is the direct result of Hizballah's violation of Geneva Convention. Blaming Israel, instead of the true culprit who continue to commit war crimes against civilians on both sides, is both shortsighed and misguided, if not hypocritical.
 

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I think that both sides should be sharing the blame for what's going on in Lebanon. I simply find it cowardly to bomb civilian targets in order to hit military targets that may or may not be located nearby or inside.

If somebody takes a hostage in a bank robbery or some such other event, should police just say screw it and shoot the hostage and hostage takers? Israel is just all too willing to take the bait and blast away. I know it's a war going on, but I don't recall the Lebanese people declaring war with Israel, they are caught in an increasingly bloody crossfire.

I see this as being something akin to swatting at a fly with a hand grenade, with no regards to what else lay damaged in the explosion. I'm not displaying any sort of "virulent hatred" as you imply, merely questioning the tactics being employed. From what I gather, directly targeting civilian targets is every bit as much of a war crime as placing the civilians in harms way as Hizbollah is doing. Hizbollah is providing the civilian targets, but the Israeli's are the ones pulling the trigger.
 

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Do you think the Israelis do not realize that civilian collateral damage costs them heavily? Time and again, they have taken casualties because they chose NOT to shoot at gunmen firing from the midst of civilians. Do you think the Israelis who know more about the Lebanese than most of the world, would not know the consequence of Lebanese casualties creating hatred for themselves? Do you think they don't realize that every Lebanese civilian death might bring to their land another suicide bombers? Do you really think they would be that stupid as to go out of their way to create a bunch of suicide bombers for themselves? Does that make sense to you? The Israelis are not a bunch of fools.

I hate to say this, but it is insulting for you to insinuate that they just carelessly fire into civilian midst in the hope of hitting " military targets that may or may not be located nearby or inside. " IDF has continued to suffer casualties because of their decision to withhold fire.

You are assuming that Israelis have been firing indiscriminately at Lebanon, and stupidly creating enemies for themselves by the busload. That is what the Arab media wants you to think. It is part of their strategy. And you fall for it.
 

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I think that both sides should be sharing the blame for what's going on in Lebanon. I simply find it cowardly to bomb civilian targets in order to hit military targets that may or may not be located nearby or inside.
Well, that's the way that war goes. A legitimate military target is a legitimate military target. Not to mention that these people were warned that the Israelis were going to attack and were given a chance to leave. Don't give me crap about people not wanting to leave their homes; if I know an F-16 is coming with heavy ordinance, I'm out of there.


If somebody takes a hostage in a bank robbery or some such other event, should police just say screw it and shoot the hostage and hostage takers?
First, that's easy for you to say when it's not your city that has been attacked with hundreds of rockets a day for weeks on end - rockets loaded with ball bearings to maximize casualties.

Second, that's a convenient analogy, but one that is inapplicable to this situation, unless the hostage takers are also firing rockets into heavily populated areas, in which case, yes, the police might have to risk the hostages for the greater good. Besides, the police are not a military force - they are charged with the protection of citizens, including the hostages you mention. The military's job is to kill people from other countries in order to protect its own people. That's not an oversimplification - that's what it comes down to.
 

BioHazzard

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..... Are you going to tell me that the UN outpost that was bombed into oblivion was a Hizbollah target as well?.....

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282569,00.html

UN observer: Hizbullah using us as shields

"....Six days before he was killed in an Israel Air Force bombing of a United Nations post in southern Lebanon, Canadian observer Major Paeta Hess-von Kruendener sent an email to his former commander in the Canadian army, in which he said that Hizbullah fighters were "running around" near the UN post struck by the Israel Defense Forces and that they were using the post as a sort of "shield" against Israel' s strikes.
The former commander, Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, who served as a UN commander in Bosnia, spoke about the email in a Canadian radio show. He said that Hess-von Kruendener wrote that the IDF strikes near the post had "not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

"That would mean Hizbullah was purposely setting up near the UN post," he added. "It's a tactic."

Hess-von Kruendener even sent an email to the Canadian television network CTV a few days before his death, in which he spoke about the IDF's bombardments near his UN post and said that he feared for his life.


He sought to provide the public in his country with a "Canadian outlook" on the war in Lebanon from a post of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, at a distance of 10 kilometers (6.21 miles) from the country's border with Israel.

Another three UN observers were killed in the strike.

In an email sent six days before he was killed, Hess-von Kruendener wrote that he felt he was in great danger.

"What I can tell you is this. We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (6.562 feet) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (328.1 feet) from our patrol base," he said.

(NOTE : The million dollar questions is : Why didn't they pull out? What was their purpose there afterall, especially when bombs were landing next to them? )


The Canadian soldier tried to describe his experiences as an unarmed soldier who is nonetheless in the line of fire.

The UN post, he wrote, provided a view of the "Hizbullah static positions in and around our patrol Base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hizbullah has taken place in our area," he wrote, adding that it was too dangerous to venture out on patrols.


Hess-von Kruendener, whose last letters were quoted in many Canadian and global media outlets, was stationed at a UNIFIL post in southern Lebanon for nine months. He served as a Canadian Forces infantry officer for 20 years and was previously stationed in Cyprus, Congo and Kosovo. ........................................."
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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I simply find it cowardly to bomb civilian targets in order to hit military targets that may or may not be located nearby or inside.
The civilian areas are leafletted before attacks ensue.

In the case of the 56 civilians who died recently in the building, they WERE NOT the original inhabitants! The original inhabitants were long gone after the leaflets. These people supposedly parked their butt there for shelter. And, IDF planes never bombed that building. They bombed 20,100,and 400 meters away from it in that order. The building stood for 8 hrs after the bombings of neighboring sites and mysteriously fell. Fishy to me. Especially since they were supposedly sleeping in said building (after the bombings).
 

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282569,00.html

UN observer: Hizbullah using us as shields

"....Six days before he was killed in an Israel Air Force bombing of a United Nations post in southern Lebanon, Canadian observer Major Paeta Hess-von Kruendener sent an email to his former commander in the Canadian army, in which he said that Hizbullah fighters were "running around" near the UN post struck by the Israel Defense Forces and that they were using the post as a sort of "shield" against Israel' s strikes.
The former commander, Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, who served as a UN commander in Bosnia, spoke about the email in a Canadian radio show. He said that Hess-von Kruendener wrote that the IDF strikes near the post had "not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

"That would mean Hizbullah was purposely setting up near the UN post," he added. "It's a tactic."

Hess-von Kruendener even sent an email to the Canadian television network CTV a few days before his death, in which he spoke about the IDF's bombardments near his UN post and said that he feared for his life.


He sought to provide the public in his country with a "Canadian outlook" on the war in Lebanon from a post of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, at a distance of 10 kilometers (6.21 miles) from the country's border with Israel.

Another three UN observers were killed in the strike.

In an email sent six days before he was killed, Hess-von Kruendener wrote that he felt he was in great danger.

"What I can tell you is this. We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (6.562 feet) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (328.1 feet) from our patrol base," he said.

(NOTE : The million dollar questions is : Why didn't they pull out? What was their purpose there afterall, especially when bombs were landing next to them? )


The Canadian soldier tried to describe his experiences as an unarmed soldier who is nonetheless in the line of fire.

The UN post, he wrote, provided a view of the "Hizbullah static positions in and around our patrol Base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hizbullah has taken place in our area," he wrote, adding that it was too dangerous to venture out on patrols.


Hess-von Kruendener, whose last letters were quoted in many Canadian and global media outlets, was stationed at a UNIFIL post in southern Lebanon for nine months. He served as a Canadian Forces infantry officer for 20 years and was previously stationed in Cyprus, Congo and Kosovo. ........................................."
That does make you wonder for sure, why the UN observers hadn't left the post when there was shelling so close to their station. The Canadian member who died there has been portrayed as a "tough guy" by the media here, (as described by his friends), I wonder if it was bravado on his part and that of the other UN members that caused them not to abandon the post?
 
Grunt76

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That does make you wonder for sure, why the UN observers hadn't left the post when there was shelling so close to their station. The Canadian member who died there has been portrayed as a "tough guy" by the media here, (as described by his friends), I wonder if it was bravado on his part and that of the other UN members that caused them not to abandon the post?
The thing you have to remember is that being part of the UN forces stationed anywhere is SUPPOSED to be a shield, meaning that if there is a UN post somewhere, UN members know they should not bomb there, no matter what, and intervene in other ways... Such as ground assault or light weapons fire. No bombing.

When the UN unarmed personnel moves from their "safe" place, then they become much more of a possible target in the havoc of a combat situation. In all likelihood, these guys assumed that the Israeli were high-tech enough to bomb CLOSE but not AT their station. Which they are. That they would respect their duties as UN members and NOT kill "their own". Which they did. If I were president of the UN, I'd kick Israel out and bomb one of their military bases. Little lesson for any other smart-asses that are willing to undermine THE ONLY TRUE MULTINATIONAL ORDER FORCE.

And now that the credibility of the UN has been even more undermined by Israel, who will keep order? That's right, every time you undermine the force of order, chaos ensues. THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. That it does proves beyond a doubt that Israel does not care for anything else than vengeance. It is a very narcissistic state and order beyond its border is of little import to it. Otherwise they would not be behaving the way they are.
 

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The thing you have to remember is that being part of the UN forces stationed anywhere is SUPPOSED to be a shield, meaning that if there is a UN post somewhere, UN members know they should not bomb there, no matter what, and intervene in other ways... Such as ground assault or light weapons fire. No bombing.

When the UN unarmed personnel moves from their "safe" place, then they become much more of a possible target in the havoc of a combat situation. In all likelihood, these guys assumed that the Israeli were high-tech enough to bomb CLOSE but not AT their station. Which they are. That they would respect their duties as UN members and NOT kill "their own". Which they did. If I were president of the UN, I'd kick Israel out and bomb one of their military bases. Little lesson for any other smart-asses that are willing to undermine THE ONLY TRUE MULTINATIONAL ORDER FORCE.

And now that the credibility of the UN has been even more undermined by Israel, who will keep order? That's right, every time you undermine the force of order, chaos ensues. THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. That it does proves beyond a doubt that Israel does not care for anything else than vengeance. It is a very narcissistic state and order beyond its border is of little import to it. Otherwise they would not be behaving the way they are.
Protecting UN credibility? Sadly, you are a dime short and a day late. You need to check out what the Hizballah has been doing to the UN observers for the last decade. You speak of what you know not.

Your suggestion that the UN carry out revenge attack on Israel is insanity.
 

BioHazzard

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That does make you wonder for sure, why the UN observers hadn't left the post when there was shelling so close to their station. The Canadian member who died there has been portrayed as a "tough guy" by the media here, (as described by his friends), I wonder if it was bravado on his part and that of the other UN members that caused them not to abandon the post?
It does raise question. Unlike some people want to portray, the UNIFIL is very adapted at self preservation and have backed down repeatedly when been shoved by Hizballah. So, why they were not withdrawn from direct line of fire, makes no sense whatsoever.

One thing is certain. That is the Israelis are not stupid. They don't go shooting themselves at the foot, as some people would like to assume. IF they did target the post deliberately, they have calculated the costs and risks. They know damn well what the costs are. So then, assuming that is the case, you have to ask why they want to incur the wrath, if they don't have to.

OTOH, if it was simply the result of counter battery return fire in direct response to Hizballah's rocket firing next to the out post, then it would be simply a case of tragedy in the fog of war.
 

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People like to assume that Israel is so dumb, so careless, so shortsighted and so whatever, as to make enemies of the Lebanese civilian wholesale. You ignore the fact that unlike you, the Israelis are stuck there. They live there. They have to face the aftermath of the mess. They are not stupid. They know better than you do, about the consequences of what they do and don't do. They know better than the rest of the world, what can come back to bite them on the ass. They have been living through that since the founding of Israel. So they do what they need to do, picking the least fvcked up option from a collect of totally fvcked up choices.

Israel would be rotten glad if it can sign peace treaties with all Arab nations and open order with all of them.

I am symphathetic towards the Palestinians and the Arabs. Like everyone else, while not that it matters in the greater scheme of things, I too want to see the Palestinians live and prosper in their own country. But you can't be plotting to push the Jews back into the sea and take Jerusalem.
 

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People like to assume that Israel is so dumb, so careless, so shortsighted and so whatever, as to make enemies of the Lebanese civilian wholesale. You ignore the fact that unlike you, the Israelis are stuck there. They live there. They have to face the aftermath of the mess. They are not stupid. They know better than you do, about the consequences of what they do and don't do. They know better than the rest of the world, what can come back to bite them on the ass. They have been living through that since the founding of Israel. So they do what they need to do, picking the least fvcked up option from a collect of totally fvcked up choices.

Israel would be rotten glad if it can sign peace treaties with all Arab nations and open order with all of them.

I am symphathetic towards the Palestinians and the Arabs. Like everyone else, while not that it matters in the greater scheme of things, I too want to see the Palestinians live and prosper in their own country. But you can't be plotting to push the Jews back into the sea and take Jerusalem.
I think the bolded line best sums up the quandry that Israel finds themselves in. If they take a hardline stance (which they are prone to doing much of the time) they face the wrath of the outside world. If they don't take the hardline stance then they are seen as soft from factions within Israel.
 
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