Stuff is really heating up in the mideast...

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sigh... The Israelis don't need 'encouragement' to protect themselves. They are not kids.

I am surprised that people have not started speculating that it was Bush who kidnapped the Israeli soldiers....:rolleyes:

What WWIII? Not even the Arabs are coming to the support of Hizballah, let alone world power.

Then again, if you live there, it might as well be WWIII for all practical purpose......
 
Actually people have. I have to find it again but there are reports that bush is working with Iran to stir up the area so the world wont watch Iran build nukes... the nuts and bolts of it is.. US wants Iran to get nukes...the even tie it in with Clinton giving Iran information and equipment to control this energy
 
So as recently as 2001, CNN was telling us what a dangerous bunch of thugs Hezbollah is, and now they do a puff piece on Nose-hair Nasrallah, or whatever his name is. 'He's a charismatic leader! Builds roads! Creates sewers! Probably even runs abortion clinics for all we know! He just does everything right!

It's eerily similar to what people said about Adolf Hitler when you look at what they're saying about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: 'It's no big deal. He's just huffing and puffing. He's insane. He doesn't really mean this! We can make deals with him. We can fix this.' Eerily, eerily the same

We declared war on terror. You can't negotiate with these people. You have to defeat them. That's what war is -- and you defeat them by killing them. 'But they're human beings!!! Just like you and me!' No, they are not human beings just like us. You and I don't go chopping off heads of news reporters, or mailing their body parts back to their home land.

We have to give all support we can to Israel. Their objective is in the best interest of the free world. Even Saudi's and other Arab states are not behind this terrorist group.... they are not "for" israel but it says alot when you wont back a group that is bent on killing a entire country.

But I know what the media would say. "we can't spend one more american life in the middle east" In World War II, the United States suffered around 92,000 battle deaths in the Pacific theater alone. Ninety-two thousand in the Pacific theater! Can you imagine how it would have gone if the Media were there back then, counting up the deaths.

You know Maynard, normally in these political threads you and I generally have opposing viewpoints. This time, however, I have to agree with you.

I dont care if US foreign policy with Israel is a factor that led to the state of things today. I also dont care that Hezbollah 'are people too'. Whatever.

I'm an American, and if I were caught over there by any of these bastards, they'd saw my head off with a pocket knife. And that's what people with love and kindness in their heart have to realize...those emotions are all well and good, and in an ideal world that's what everyone should consider.

Of course, this isnt an ideal world. Its a world where a certain group of people would like to see all American's die horrible, painful deaths and are obviously doing whatever they can to make that happen. In this world and with these muslim extreemist, attemps at diplomacy and kindness are viewed as a weakness. These maniacs really need to be detroyed, all of them do.

The problem I see though, is that they're so entrenched in society over there, is that a lot of innocent people end up getting their lives detroyed in the process. Look at all those poor ****s in south Lebanon. A lot of them have nothing to do with Hezbollah and yet their familes are dying, homes and buisnesses are destroyed by the Israeli attacks. Something that will go a long way to creating future terrorists out of innocent people, no doubt.

Honestly, I cant see an end to this conflict, or a peaceful resolution to anything in the mideast. Other than all out war and total conquest and/or destruction of countries that harbor terroists and extreemist viewpoints, that is. That does seem to be where things are being pushed, doesnt it?

BV
 
Yes it does... and it has to be...its in our nature to do so. Sadly the Muslim cause has been perverted. They are against Zionists, Jews worshiping the free market, just as many Jews are against them, but they have put the face of Zion on every Jews, the same thing that is going on with the face of a terrorist being on the body of all Islam. It has been far too long of a conflict to sit two people down and have it be the end. Israel has done every last bit, and given everything away to these nations and it mattered not. They continue to bomb innocent Jews, killing them and Zionists. They follow the understanding that the Innocent will be dealt with accordingly in the after life as a sort of Martyr. This allows them to kill with out worry. However, I worry, though I am not Jewish, I worry about this mindset and how it will be extended to the rest of the world. Islamic law states that it will rule the world, and it must rule the world, you must join the Jihad with your "words, your heart and your hands." This has been taken to mean kill, kill, kill. The only way to stop the death, is to kill in return. To reduce those numbers that are willing to take the life of the ignorant and innocent men, women and children who are doing nothing more than living life the best way they can.

I think Zionists are bad, all "ists" are bad. But we have to now pick a side in this world war. Life is all about the lesser of two evils, and I have not seen any worse evil then in the Peaceful loving religon of the Islamist mindset. It will not end unless the free world, Christians, Muslims, Jews, alike, stand up and wipe them out.
 
BigVrunga said:
....
Honestly, I cant see an end to this conflict, or a peaceful resolution to anything in the mideast. Other than all out war and total conquest and/or destruction of countries that harbor terroists and extreemist viewpoints, that is. That does seem to be where things are being pushed, doesnt it?

BV
UNLESS we get some support by our supposed "allies" France, Germany, Russia, China, etc...and I'm talkign major support. I think the leaders of many of these middle easter countries would change their tune really quick if they honestly believed that all out war was a possibility.

They're watching us laughing about our rubber spine ATM.
 
I heard a very good analogy recently.

Take away Hizballah's and Hamas' guns, there will be peace.

Take away the Israelis' guns, there will be a massacre and enslavement of the Jews.
 
What an irony. The Israelis sold missle and drone technology to China, inviolation of their treaty with the US. The Chinese sold missiles and drones to the Iranians who gave them to the Hizballah. Hizballah almost sank an Israeli warship (if the warhead hadn't failed) with the missile they received. And the Israelis are worried that explosive laden drones are heading toward Tel Aviv. May be the Israelis would think twice about whom they diverge our military secrets to.....
 
UNLESS we get some support by our supposed "allies" France, Germany, Russia, China, etc...and I'm talkign major support. I think the leaders of many of these middle easter countries would change their tune really quick if they honestly believed that all out war was a possibility.

They're watching us laughing about our rubber spine ATM.

True. If we had the *full* support of our more powerful allies in Europe and in the East, it would definitely be WW3 but it wouldnt be much of a war.

You obviously can't give these people 'the right to choose' with their current mindset though. Look what happened in Gaza after Israel pulled out and they had a democratic election. The people elected Hamas, a known terrorist group. These places need to be completely destroyed, and the people completely re-educated to join modern society and give up this insane faith warrior jihad bull****.

Then we can move on to ending the atrocities in Africa...oh wait those countries dont have any money or oil...:)
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
...They're watching us laughing about our rubber spine ATM....

Right on. In that part of the world, they understand only one thing: Power. Everything else is taken as weakness. And weakness, perceived or real, invites aggression.

If Sharon is not in a coma, the kidnapping would not have happened. They are scared of Sharon. They know for a fact that Sharon would not pussyfoot with them. Sharon has a solid record of ramming it hard up their rear end. They wouldn't dream of cross border attack and kidnapping.

The terrorists were openly mocking Olmert, Peretz and Livniz. They are considered light weight with no military experience. Sure the terrorists miscalculated. So, we have this freaking mess at hand.

As for the USA, of course the terrorists laugh at America. Because we have all these domestic terrorist sympathizers constantly undermining the USA. The terrorists know we would never be able to muster nor sustain the ruthlessness required to wipe them into extinction.

Come to think of, we should have just given the contract to the Russians. Pay them the billions we are blowing every year. Let their operatives hunt down the terrorists. With our world class logistic support, and their blatant brutality and ruthlessness, it would have been a Wonderful World indeed.
 
BioHazzard said:
What an irony. The Israelis sold missle and drone technology to China, inviolation of their treaty with the US. The Chinese sold missiles and drones to the Iranians who gave them to the Hizballah. Hizballah almost sank an Israeli warship (if the warhead hadn't failed) with the missile they received. And the Israelis are worried that explosive laden drones are heading toward Tel Aviv. May be the Israelis would think twice about whom they diverge our military secrets to.....

That was terribly short sighted of the Israelis to deal with the ChiComs.
 
and the ChiCom has a high level operative located inside Hamas inner circle, serving as Hamas direct link with Beijing......
 
BigVrunga said:
True. If we had the *full* support of our more powerful allies in Europe and in the East, it would definitely be WW3 but it wouldnt be much of a war.

You obviously can't give these people 'the right to choose' with their current mindset though. Look what happened in Gaza after Israel pulled out and they had a democratic election. The people elected Hamas, a known terrorist group. These places need to be completely destroyed, and the people completely re-educated to join modern society and give up this insane faith warrior jihad bull****.

Then we can move on to ending the atrocities in Africa...oh wait those countries dont have any money or oil...:)


100% agreed but as we all know, the world has gotten too politically correct. i honestly do not see that happening. we have molded our society to be so pussy that if we were to offend anyone no matter how much they deserved that scolding, we would spank ourselves......

i believe that democracies do work....with restrictions, just as the founding fathers had planned it to work..... power should remain in the hands of the intelligent citizens, not everyone...... i forget which president specifically had an excellent quote on that.....
 
i believe that democracies do work....with restrictions, just as the founding fathers had planned it to work..... power should remain in the hands of the intelligent citizens, not everyone...... i forget which president specifically had an excellent quote on that.....

Problem is that now, power isnt necessarily in the hands of the very intelligent. Just in the hands of those with enough money and influence to fund the media circus that makes them get elected.
 
Mrs. Gimpy! said:
.... we have molded our society to be so pussy that if we were to offend anyone no matter how much they deserved that scolding, we would spank ourselves........
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
BigVrunga said:
Problem is that now, power isnt necessarily in the hands of the very intelligent. Just in the hands of those with enough money and influence to fund the media circus that makes them get elected.

i should have used a different word than intelligent....... maybe.... informed, the "sane" .... i dont know. i see your point though

man....i've misssed being in this area of the boards. good to see you again bv
 
I have to chime in here. I've been following this thread for a few days and its interesting to see people's opinions. I agree with some of you, but I have disagree with Israel's actions right now. What Israel is doing now is unacceptable. They can protect themselves and secure their borders... But killing innocent lebonese children and civilians is unacceptable. An attack like this had to be planned weeks, if not months in advance to the capture of Israeli soldiers. This wasn't something that happened overnight.

Since we are in bed with Israel we can expect this to impact us greatly. "We will attack Israeli and American interests worldwide" was a recent statement by Hezbollah. It baffles me why we support Israel in the first place. And do not say its because "they preserve our interests in the middleeast" because that is bull****, and we all know it. Our support of Israel is what has gotten us in alot of these ****ty situations with these radical muslim extremists. It is almost certain the u.s. will suffer more as a result of Israel's actions and war crimes

As an American it infuriates me we send billions of dollars there every year to support their military conquests. OUR tax money goes to support them. My uncle's friend was in the USS Liberty when it was attacked by Israeli fighter jets in 1967. 34 people died in that tragedy. How soon we forget this tragedy.When was the last time lebanon attacked a U.S. naval jet? It is very hard for me to support this country and what they are doing at the moment. Hezbollah is not in the Lebonese government. Hezbollah does not control Lebanon... Period. At this moment Hezbollah is spread out and more than likely escaped to Syria's borders.

Nothing good will come of this war, and it is going to lead to the death of hundreds of innocent people including some Americans. So think about this issue from both sides for a moment, not just what some of the American media is suggesting. And I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, I am just giving my honest opinion on the subject. And I am open to discussion and debate.
 
Here's the problem fbxdan. Israel has been ATTEMPTING to stop these attacks in the fashion you mention above for DECADES! The result, their people keep dying. And, of course, they are more concerned with their people than the Lebonese people. This is the same with all countries and while probably not "theoretically morally right", right and wrong matter much less than survival to people in danger. Its easy for us to tell them to not try to ELIMINATE the problem from a third person point of view. If mexico was sending missiles into US cities and strapping bombs to babies just to kill a few civilians I'd be willing to be you'd be up in arms.

In addition, Hezzbollah IS PART OF the lebonese government. They hold something like 1/4 of the seats of the lebonese government because they were voted in! So, yes, a large portion of their government is in fact a terrorist organization. Israel doesn't want Lebanon to permanently hate them. They understand its very important that the Lebanese democracy survive so they can stop this madness one day. But, the Lebanese army and the rest of the Lebanese government (not Hezzbollah) are scared to death of hezbollah and are impotent as a result.

As wonderful as the notion of problem solving via diplomacy sounds, of the 6 BILLION people on this earth, only a few hundred million are willing to do so and unless everyone is playing by the same rules, you're just looking to get your ass taken advantage of.
 
fbxdan said:
I have to chime in here. I've been following this thread for a few days and its interesting to see people's opinions. I agree with some of you, but I have disagree with Israel's actions right now. What Israel is doing now is unacceptable. They can protect themselves and secure their borders... But killing innocent lebonese children and civilians is unacceptable. An attack like this had to be planned weeks, if not months in advance to the capture of Israeli soldiers. This wasn't something that happened overnight.

Since we are in bed with Israel we can expect this to impact us greatly. "We will attack Israeli and American interests worldwide" was a recent statement by Hezbollah. It baffles me why we support Israel in the first place. And do not say its because "they preserve our interests in the middleeast" because that is bull****, and we all know it. Our support of Israel is what has gotten us in alot of these ****ty situations with these radical muslim extremists. It is almost certain the u.s. will suffer more as a result of Israel's actions and war crimes

As an American it infuriates me we send billions of dollars there every year to support their military conquests. OUR tax money goes to support them. My uncle's friend was in the USS Liberty when it was attacked by Israeli fighter jets in 1967. 34 people died in that tragedy. How soon we forget this tragedy.When was the last time lebanon attacked a U.S. naval jet? It is very hard for me to support this country and what they are doing at the moment. Hezbollah is not in the Lebonese government. Hezbollah does not control Lebanon... Period. At this moment Hezbollah is spread out and more than likely escaped to Syria's borders.

Nothing good will come of this war, and it is going to lead to the death of hundreds of innocent people including some Americans. So think about this issue from both sides for a moment, not just what some of the American media is suggesting. And I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, I am just giving my honest opinion on the subject. And I am open to discussion and debate.
1. There is no war of conquest on the part of Israel. If anything, Israel pulled out of Lebanon, gave back the Gaza Strip and is planning on pulling out of the West Bank.

2. The Lebanese casualties has a lot to do with the terrorists using civilians as human shield. They built their rocket sites inside civilian homes. Using civilian for cover is their strategy. They fire from civilian positions with the full expectation that returning fire will kill civilians. And they expect condemnation to heap upon Israel, the victim of their aggression. You have proven that they are correct.

3. The Israelis do not target civilians purposefully. While Hizballah aims anti personnel rockets at civilian centers. Where is the outrage on that?

4.The Liberty inciddent is a friendly fire mistake and Israel has not only apologized but also made full compensation to the families. To bring that into the issue is pointless.

5. Hizbballah is a terrorist state within a state. It is irrelevant what their role is in the Lebanese government. Israel has no quarrel with the Lebanese government nor the Lebanese people. The notion that Israel is attacking Lebanon and killing Lebanese civilians, is missing the point. It is damn unfortunate that they are held hostage by a bloody ruthless terrorist group. They are the innocent bystanders. Some of them are truly innocents. The rest are bloody terrorists who are now presented as innocent civilians after they got killed.

If the Hizballah is really champion of its people, it would not use them as shields. It would not purposedly put them in the path of returning fire. They may BS about the most glorious death being death at the hands of Allah's enemies. Do you see them brave the enemies' fire? Do, they hide their tails and let other people die in their place.

Blaming Israel is simply wrong. Israel would be rotten glad to live in peace with all its neighbors.
 
Good post BH. I can't believe I didn't think to mention Israel attempting to bring peace by withdrawing from certain areas, kicking out tens of thousands of their own citizens from their life-long homes.
 
BioHazzard said:
1. There is no war of conquest on the part of Israel. If anything, Israel pulled out of Lebanon, gave back the Gaza Strip and is planning on pulling out of the West Bank.

4.The Liberty inciddent is a friendly fire mistake and Israel has not only apologized but also made full compensation to the families. To bring that into the issue is pointless.

Blaming Israel is simply wrong. Israel would be rotten glad to live in peace with all its neighbors.

An American flag flew high over the ship for everyone to see when it was attacked. How is that friendly fire? Former Secretary of state Dean Rusk, and almost every senior member in American intelligence agree it was not an accident. Israel stated they attacked us because they mistook us for the egyptian "el quseir ship". However, the ship was in internationl waters away from fighting and flew a huge, bright new American flag. How can that be an accident?

I respect that both you kwyckemynd00 have done your research. But, my question to you (which i ask in all earnesty). Is why should America support Israel?
 
It would have to be really big and fly really high to be easily discernable from another flag.

And, regarding your questions, well thats actually a simple question to answer.

Their way of life agrees with our way of life. They are not (as of now anyway) hostile to us or dangerous to us. All lifes most basic primal urge is survival. For humans, we desire the survival of our loved ones and our strong core values. By the nature of the way their societies function with respect to most of the middle eastern countires Israel earns our support by being similar to us.

Is that "right"? Well, nobody knows what right and wrong even are and if they even exist. Is it smart for us to support the party which reflects our values? Yes, it is very smart to do so.

Oh, that and there is also a large sect of the religious population who believes the Israeli's are "God's chosen people".
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
It would have to be really big and fly really high to be easily discernable from another flag.

And, regarding your questions, well thats actually a simple question to answer.

Their way of life agrees with our way of life. They are not (as of now anyway) hostile to us or dangerous to us. All lifes most basic primal urge is survival. For humans, we desire the survival of our loved ones and our strong core values. By the nature of the way their societies function with respect to most of the middle eastern countires Israel earns our support by being similar to us.

Is that "right"? Well, nobody knows what right and wrong even are and if they even exist. Is it smart for us to support the party which reflects our values? Yes, it is very smart to do so.

Oh, that and there is also a large sect of the religious population who believes the Israeli's are "God's chosen people".

I can see where you are coming from. In my opinion the majority of people in the u.s. that support Israel are evangelical christians. I am not a christian however. Our country shouldn't support other nations on the basis of religion.

I agree with you that right and wrong don't exist. In my opinion there are no such things as "rights" period. You only have the right to struggle and do what enables you to survive. And yes, it is true "might makes right". So in this respect Israel can do what they please. Palestinians will do what they deem is right also. They know that their land was taken from them decades ago, so they have went to extremes to try to take it back. Is that right? It is right to them. And if someone took away my families homes I would die to get them back. So I can sincerely see this issue from both sides.

The part I disagree with you is that supporting Israel supports our interests. Their way of life is completely different than my way of life. In America two people can marry each other no matter what religion they are. In Israel, a jewish person and non jew cannot get married.

I hate islamic extremists just as much as you. This is why I have disdain for Israel's current actions. Before Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 it wasnt a country filled with radical extremists. Now islamic radicalism has spread like a disease throughout that entire region. Israel has polarized an entire people into hating them. And they can bomb, fire, and shoot all they want, but unfortunately it will just cause more hatred in that region towards the west. I guess what bothers me about the situation right now, is it will encourage moderate muslims to be extreme lunatics. And if that continues to happen, we can expect bloodshed on an unparalleled level.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Their way of life agrees with our way of life. They are not (as of now anyway) hostile to us or dangerous to us.
This was my complete statement. It is not "identical" to our way of life. Both have pros and cons IMO. For example, you identified a horrible con of Israel. A great couple of pros are their sense of nationalism and pride in education. You get the point.

Either way, we can live reasonably with them without the fear of them believing they must wipe us infidels of our ignorance.

I'm not a christian either. I was actually much more sympathetic to the middle eastern muslims a few years back when I was just beginnign to get involved in politics. Over time, I changed that opinion.

Israel did not attack anybody and make them hate them. au contraire the day after they were recognized as a nation by the UN they were attacked by 5 countries (1948) including "Lebanon". There was much Lebanese antagonizing going on prior to their invasion of Lebanon: Invalid Link Removed

For most of Israel existance they have been almost entirely reactionary.

I believe the moderate muslims are few and far between in the middle east. Israel withdrew from Lebanon years ago and it kicked its own people out of Gaza in an attempt to create peace. Not a day passed where they weren't attacked. Hezbollah, who supposedly exist to fight off the Israeli occupation, never ceased to exist after the voluntary withdrawal and in addition have been causing chaos ever since the withdrawal took place. One thing that makes me think that the Muslim moderates are few and far between in the middle east is that, for example, Lebanon was considered to be one of the most moderate Middle Eastern states. This is well known. However, they have an ~ 45% christian population and a similar populatin size of shiite muslims. With a mere 40% shiite populatin, Hezbollah, a radical terrorist group, was given 1/4 of the seats in the lenanese government. This is just one example, but this can be seen in many of thse countires which are so critical of israel's existance.

I believe I can see the issue from both sides as well. i can see that its horribly unfair what is happening to the many good people in these areas, but israel no longer occupies any land that belonged to anyone alive in this day and age. They have never aggressively taken land. All land was taken during conflicts which were antagonized/started by these muslim countries. i see that entire populations are being told by their government that the holocaust never existed and are literally taught to hate the jews and western (non-muslim) civilizations. This is dangerous and despite ignorance and "unfairness", its still dangerous and we can't just get on TV and tell hundrds of millions of people "guess what? you were lied to." and expect them to change their beliefs. Chances are it will take centuries for any reformation to take place IF one ever does. Its going to come to war and we ned to suport those of us, despite some minor differences, who are most like us and who we can live peacefully with. It doesn't help that they're strong nations either :D

Anyway, I'm tired and my brain isnt thinking straight anymore....I'llc heck back tomorrow :D

But, I do see where you're coming from. I've been EXACTLY there before. Your heart is in the right place AND you're using your brain, so that's a good sign. I just get the feeling that you'll be less sympathetic over time, especially since you seem interested enough to do yoru own research.
 
The reason we support Israel is because our society has a Judeo-Christian heritage, and are combatible with their way of life. Of course alot of the damn pinkos would like to change this in our country. Our main religions have their problems too, but I would argue that ours is much more humanitarian. Why do you think most of the Middle East is in the stone age? I'll tell you but you might not like the answer.

Because we are better than them (oh hear the liberals scream at this). I'm not ashamed to say it. By "us" and "them" I don't mean race, but religious heritage and culture. I think even alot of atheists could agree that our Judeo Christian culture has worked out pretty good for us.

Look at their way of life vs ours. Don't try to start the argument that we are oppressing them. They are sitting on massive amounts of energy. They had just as much chance to have a great society as we did-except for getting stuck with an inferior religion.

I expect to hear screaming and wringing of hands, that Muslims are "peaceful". Peaceful compared to what? Certainly not to Christianity. Oh, now and then a wacko Christian will shoot an abortion doctor, but there is not exactly an epidemic of Christians blowing themselves up. You might point to the Crusades, which indeed cast a bad light on the religion, but this only serves to further prove my point-Christianity has evolved. The Muslim religion has not. The Crusades aren't happening today-terrorists are still strapping on bombs.

Now give me a good reason NOT to support Israel, which is an extension of our clearly superior religious and cultural heritage.
 
fbxdan said:
I can see where you are coming from. In my opinion the majority of people in the u.s. that support Israel are evangelical christians. I am not a christian however. Our country shouldn't support other nations on the basis of religion.
Most evangelical Christians support Israel. But that is not the reason we support Israel.

I agree with you that right and wrong don't exist. In my opinion there are no such things as "rights" period. You only have the right to struggle and do what enables you to survive. And yes, it is true "might makes right".
You don't really believe that. Because if you do, that means it is ok for me to go over and rob you and rape the girls in your household. Afterall, there is no right or wrong, no?

What makes us civilized people is our sense of what is right vs wrong. If you don't know nor distinguish what is right vs wrong, then you are just a primitive animal driven by a survival instinct. That mean we should cage you or shoot you. Your choice. :D

So in this respect Israel can do what they please. Palestinians will do what they deem is right also. They know that their land was taken from them decades ago, so they have went to extremes to try to take it back. Is that right? It is right to them. And if someone took away my families homes I would die to get them back. So I can sincerely see this issue from both sides.
Again, their land was not stolen from them. They abandoned it and left. The reason they abandoned it and left, because their Arab brethens promised them that they didn't have to put up with it and that they could return after the Arab armies have 'pushed the Jews into the sea'.

Israel gave up Gaza. What did they do with it? Have they built it into their prosperous homeland? Israel offered to leave behind all the settlement structure intact. They wanted it burnt to the ground. American donors spent $15 millions to buyout an Israeli green house and gave it over to the Palestinian people. They ransaked it.

Barak offered to give back over 90% of WestBank while only retaining a few major settlements, plus part of East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. The Palestinians had only one word to say, NO. Even Clinton was so fed up that he screamed at Arafat that "You can't just say NO to everything. You have to come up with something." Oh well... Yeah, they came up with Intifada II and suicide bombers against civilians....

The Palestinians would have a case, if the Israelis did not want to compromise. But the Israelis were and are willing to give up land for peace... Abbu Abbas is willing to go the compromising route but Hamas's hardliners HQ'ed in Damascus are hellbent on confrontation. They hang on the example of Israel's withdrawal from South Lebanon. The lesson they derived from that is, if you keep killing the Israelis, eventually they will leave.

The part I disagree with you is that supporting Israel supports our interests. Their way of life is completely different than my way of life. In America two people can marry each other no matter what religion they are. In Israel, a jewish person and non jew cannot get married.
The Japanese way of life and Korean way of life are also different from ours. But they are our allies and we support them too. We support Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, and a boat load of countries the culture and lifestyle of which, are completely different from those of ours.

I hate islamic extremists just as much as you. This is why I have disdain for Israel's current actions. Before Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 it wasnt a country filled with radical extremists. Now islamic radicalism has spread like a disease throughout that entire region. Israel has polarized an entire people into hating them. And they can bomb, fire, and shoot all they want, but unfortunately it will just cause more hatred in that region towards the west. I guess what bothers me about the situation right now, is it will encourage moderate muslims to be extreme lunatics. And if that continues to happen, we can expect bloodshed on an unparalleled level.
You get the facts all mixed up. You need to do some research on the origin on Islamic radicalism.
 
To help you with your research.....

Invalid Link Removed


"....July 21, 2006
Hezbollah Nourished by Iran, Syria Roots
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 4:22 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Hezbollah military machine that has been attacking Israel draws much of its strength from two shadowy sources that are proving difficult to cut off: Syria and Iran.

The two countries, which President Bush blames for fomenting terrorism and destabilizing the Middle East, provide Hezbollah with training, weapons and financing, according to Western intelligence officials who are working to stem the flow of aid.

Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., a House Intelligence Committee member who was briefed on the Middle East situation during a recent trip to Iraq, said Syria has more than 1,000 agents in southern Lebanon, working either directly for Syrian intelligence or compensated by Syria for information. He says they are there ''to cause trouble'' and help prop up Hezbollah militarily.

Lebanon is two-thirds the size of Connecticut. In a country that small, Rogers said, ''a thousand intelligence agents is unbelievable. It's huge.''

Along with Syria's agents, Iran's well-trained Revolutionary Guard is believed to be providing military advisers to Hezbollah, with some level of coordination with Syria, according to U.S. officials and Anthony Cordesman, a Middle East expert with the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity.

Cordesman said the Iranian role has evolved over time. Earlier, significant numbers of Iranians could be seen operating at terrorist training camps in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley. Syria provided them safe haven in the region. ''Now, what you have is people who are less visible,'' he said.

While intelligence agencies may try to pin down such details with spies, eavesdropping equipment and overhead surveillance, the details are among any government's most classified secrets. And some of what is public may be misinformation.

''I'll be perfectly blunt: Israeli intelligence is political, and you can't trust it,'' Cordesman said.

The United States lists Hezbollah as a terror organization. Yet the complicated 24-year-old Shiite Muslim organization has stepped in to fill vacuums left by the country's anemic government and controls much of the southern part of Lebanon, operating schools, health care and other social services.

It was created to counter Israeli occupying forces after Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon and still provides much of the security along the border with the Jewish state. Tensions have mounted between Israel and Hezbollah's base in southern Lebanon since Hezbollah's brazen July 12 raid into northern Israel during which it kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and killed eight others.

Experts have disputed claims from Hezbollah's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, who has said repeatedly that his group has more than 12,000 rockets.

Other estimates suggest that the supply of rockets rose to 10,000 this year. That includes some Iranian-made rockets with a range of perhaps as much as 45 miles, but the vast majority -- the Katyusha-type rockets -- have a range of less than 20 miles.

Israel says Hezbollah has missiles and rockets that can go much farther. Israeli officials said the naval warship struck Friday was hit with an Iranian-made, radar-guided C-802 cruise missile, which has a range of up to 74 miles. Iran denies the claim, and U.S. officials have no information to confirm the missile was the C-802.

Numerous security and intelligence experts caution that estimates on Hezbollah's rocket arsenal aren't firm because they're based on calculations about the potential volume of known weapons shipments, rather than any actual count. Israel has been trying to cut off any resupply by destroying land routes from Syria into Lebanon.

Hezbollah can do limited reconnaissance. The group launched at least two unmanned aerial vehicles in 2004 and in 2005. Both Hezbollah and Israel have said the light, low-flying crafts were made by the group itself, while American analysts believe the drones were Iranian-made.

So far, U.S. officials and other experts have seen no sign that the group's drones have been armed with weapons.

How Hezbollah makes and spends its money is difficult for Western officials to determine. Hezbollah gets significant support from Iran and from Lebanese people living abroad, and more limited financing from Syria, a relatively poor country.

One senior U.S. intelligence official said the group has access to several hundred million dollars a year, much of it going to the social service network in southern Lebanon rather than arms and terrorism. But that money could be diverted to terror or military operations.

The organization also has been linked to almost every type of organized crime, including drug trafficking, drug counterfeiting and selling stolen baby formula...."
 
"...Hizbollahs Clever Plan for Victory


July 21, 2006: Hizbollah appears to have a lot of confidence in their ability to use Information War techniques to foil any Israeli attempt to defeat them. While the Israelis have overwhelming military superiority, Hizbollah has some serious assets of its own. For example;

Hizbollah has the support of the Shia Arab population in Lebanon. Shia comprise about 35 percent of Lebanese. While there are other Shia factions, Hizbollah has the most street cred. That's because Hizbollah got declared the victor (in Arab minds) when Israel withdrew from their south Lebanon security zone (to prevent Hizbollah rockets from threatening northern Israel) in 2000. Israel left because the constant skirmishing with Hizbollah was getting a few Israeli soldiers killed each year, and this was becoming politically unacceptable within Israel. So the UN brokered a deal for the Israeli withdrawal. But Hizbollah declared the withdrawal a military victory over Israel. This made Hizbollah heroes in the eyes of Lebanese Shia, and other Arabs in general.

While part of that 2000 deal for Israel to withdraw from southern Lebanon included the Lebanese army taking control of the border, Hizbollah kept control of southern Lebanon for itself. Hizbollah is safe in the knowledge that the rest of the world will forget that part of the deal. The other Lebanese were not happy with Hizbollah retaining control of southern Lebanon, but did not want to start another civil war by trying to disarm Hizbollah (another part of the UN withdrawal deal that was ignored and forgotten, by everyone except Israel.)

Therefore, Hizbollah can always hide among the Lebanese Shia population, which is willing to protect, or at least hide, their heroes. That might not work, because there are only 3.8 million Lebanese, and only 1.3 million Shia. But Hizbollah has other allies outside the country.

In addition to it's major sponsor, Iran, Hizbollah can also rely on Syria (run by a Shia minority, and propped up by Iran). But Hizbollah's biggest ally is world media, European public opinion, and Hizbollah's ability to portray itself as the victim. While Hizbollah has made no secret of its goal of destroying Israel (as has Iran), Hizbollah has cleverly set up its defenses in southern Lebanon so as to maximize civilian casualties if Israel ever attacked. For example, when thousands of rockets were brought in from Iran (via Syria) over the last six years, they were stored in special rooms or basements in schools, Mosques and homes. Civilians were given no choice in this matter, and many Shia in the south were proud to help house weapons to be used against Israel. Fewer of these civilians were willing to get killed when Israeli bombs or artillery shells came to destroy these rockets. Israel knew what Hizbollah was doing, and that's why Israel did not go after the rockets until now. To bomb the rocket supplies would have killed civilians, and without a Hizbollah attack on Israel, the PR and diplomatic backlash would have made such attacks too costly.

But Hizbollah is calculating that enough dead Lebanese civilians will cause European nations, and even the UN, to lean on Israel (perhaps even an embargo) and force a halt to the bombings. Hizbollah could even halt its rocket attacks, for a while anyway, and declare another victory. The two captured Israeli soldiers would never be surrendered except for hundreds of imprisoned terrorists. If Hizbollah gets enough world public opinion on their side, even this proposed trade will be seen as "reasonable", and Israel will be condemned for refusing to go along.

Hizbollah does have some risk exposure. For example, Israel could get lucky, (or Hizbollah gets sloppy), find where the two captured soldiers are, and rescue them. Israel could also reestablish their security zone, and convince the Lebanese government that they could only get that back if the Lebanese army came in and replaced Hizbollah. The Lebanese could pull that off, by promising (secretly) Hizbollah that they could return and continue to operate against Israel.

The Lebanese are also villains in all of this, as it was their unwillingness to disarm Hizbollah, and take charge of the border, in violation of the UN agreement, that made it possible for Hizbollah to attack Israel. The UN is also at fault, for not doing anything in six years to see that the 2000 agreement was carried out. Hizbollah knows they are not going to destroy Israel this time around, but are pretty much assured of another propaganda victory.

The UN is talking about sending in peacekeepers, but they have had several thousand peacekeepers along the border for decades. The problem is that the peacekeepers have no authority to do anything about Hizbollah, or any other terrorists. It's unlikely that any nation would be willing to supply peacekeepers for a force that could go after Hizbollah. That would be a nasty fight, with all manner of bad publicity. Everyone knows Hizbollah is good at spinning the media, and doesn't want to be on the wrong end of such spin.

So, despite the moral, military and intelligence advantages of Israel, Hizbollah is confident that growing European anti-Semitism (and anti-Israeli attitudes), media willingness to portray Hizbollah as a victim, and Lebanese unwillingness to do anything that would risk another civil war (the last went from 1975 to 1990), they can survive anything the Israelis throw at them, and come out a winner (in the minds of Arabs, at the very least).

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Arab World Deeply Split Over Fighting
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By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 21, 2006
Filed at 12:30 p.m. ET

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- The fighting between Israel and Hezbollah exposed divisions across the Arab world, not only between Shiites and Sunnis but also between Arab governments and their citizens.

Key Arab allies of the United States, predominantly Sunni countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt, fear the rising power of Shiites in the region: Hezbollah militants who virtually control southern Lebanon, Iraq's majority Shiite government, and -- most worrisome -- the Shiite theocracy that has run Iran for decades.

Yet many ordinary people, Sunnis as well as Shiites, are cheering the Lebanese guerrillas because of their willingness to stand up to Israel.

Sitting in the shade as he sold figs in downtown Cairo, Hasan Salem Hasan, a 25-year-old Sunni, summed up a prevailing attitude of the so-called Arab street: ''Although Hezbollah is a Shiite party, we are all Muslims, and all Arabs will defiantly support them and fight the Jews.''

On the one hand, predominantly Sunni Arab states are tacitly encouraging the destruction of Hezbollah, concerned it could stage attacks and create militant cells outside of Lebanon. There is also fear that militant Sunnis could join with Hezbollah -- as the Palestinian militant group Hamas has done -- to build a super terrorist network.

''Whenever there is a paramount cause which can bring them together, such as a jihad against the Zionists, they will be united,'' Gamal Sultan, editor of the Cairo-based Islamic monthly Al Mannar Al Jadid, said of the Sunni and Shiite militants.

Yet on the other hand, Arab governments also fear their own populations will turn on them if they look weak and unable to challenge Israeli aggression against a fellow Arab state.

Saudi Arabia -- the bulwark of the Sunni Arab world -- has tried to balance both concerns, criticizing Iran and Hezbollah for provoking Israel but also condemning the Jewish state. Israel started bombing south Lebanon, Hezbollah's base, after the guerrillas kidnapped two Israeli soldiers July 12.

The Saudi foreign minister, Saudi Al Faisal, on Tuesday blasted what he called ''non-Arab intervention in the Arab world'' -- a clear reference to Iran, Hezbollah's main backer along with Syria.

Saudi media were even more outspoken.

''We are facing a fierce Iranian offensive against the region. We see that clearly in Iraq where Iran is becoming the major player and in Lebanon through its agent, Hezbollah,'' columnist Mishari Al Thaydi wrote in the Saudi-owned London-based Asharq Al Awsat newspaper.

Yet on Thursday, Saudi Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud lashed out at Israel for its punishing airstrikes.

''We cannot tolerate Israel's playing with the lives of citizens, civilians, women, the elderly and children,'' he said after meeting with French President Jacques Chirac in Paris.

Other Sunni Arab leaders fear that growing Shiite power in Lebanon and Iraq will awaken Shiite minorities at home.

In April, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak angered Shiite leaders by saying Shiites across the Middle East were more loyal to Iran than to their own countries.

Former Jordanian information minister Saleh al-Qalab has described Hezbollah as an Iranian ''land mine'' in the Arab world. And Jordan's King Abdullah II warned of a Shiite crescent forming in the region.

Some blame Washington's Middle East policies for upsetting the region's sectarian balance.

''The whole problem started with the American invasion of Iraq with the cooperation of Shiites,'' said Mamdouh Ismail, an Islamic activist and lawyer who defends Muslim militants in Egyptian courts. ''This will certainly resonate throughout the whole region, in the Gulf ... in Saudi Arabia,'' he added.

Yet events in Lebanon have further mobilized the Shiites across the Muslim world and, if Hezbollah survives the current Israeli onslaught, the sect stands to become even stronger.

In Iraq, the Hezbollah-Israel conflict has proved a rallying point for Sunnis and Shiites otherwise riven by sectarian violence.

On Thursday, Iraqis staged an anti-Israel protest with banners reading ''Shiites and Sunnis unite'' in the city of Samarra, where the bombing of a Shiite shrine in February brought the country to the brink of civil war.

Earlier this week, about 4,000 Iraqis answered the call of Shiite clerics to rally in the holy city of Karbala in protest of Israeli attacks, raising Iraqi and Lebanese flags.

In Iraq on Friday, radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr urged Sunnis and Shiites to unite so Muslims could defeat Israel -- even without weapons. He predicted the Jewish state would collapse just as the World Trade Center did in the Sept. 11 attacks.

''We promise you all that we will not forget our people in Lebanon despite our suffering from the American occupation. I will continue defending my Shiite and Sunni brothers and I tell them that if we unite, we will defeat Israel without the use of weapons,'' he said.

''I want to remind you of a very important thing. The collapse of the World Trade Center towers in America'' was almost five years ago, al-Sadr said. ''The same way America's idol collapsed, another idol will fall, and it is called Israel.''

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki -- a Shiite -- also condemned the Israeli destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure.

''I call on the Arab League foreign ministers meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression,'' he said.

On Tuesday, thousands of Shiites demonstrated in the Gulf kingdom of Bahrain in support of Hezbollah, two days after some 300 prominent Saudi Shiites wrote to the Bahraini government urging support to the Lebanese Shiite group.

Both moves were seen as an assertion of increasing Shiite solidarity across the Arab world.

Adding to the Shiite power base, the sect's faithful share a coherent religious view. Since splitting from their Sunni brethren in the 7th century over who should replace the Prophet Muhammad as Muslim ruler, they have developed distinct concepts of Islamic law and practices.

They also dominate by sheer number: Shiites account for some 160 million of the Islamic world's population of 1.3 billion people. Shiites account about 90 percent of Iran's population, more than 60 percent of Iraq's, and some 50 percent of the people living in the arc of territory from Lebanon to India.

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Bush Wants the Hizballah-Israel War to Give Iran a Bloody Nose

DEBKAfile Special Analysis

July 17, 2006, 8:07 PM (GMT+02:00)


Since the onset of the Israel-Hizballah war on July 12, US president George W. Bush never tires of repeating that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorists and that it is up to Syria to press Hizballah to stop shooting rockets at Israel.

His secretary of state Condoleezza Rice says she doesn’t see how an immediate ceasefire can solve the Middle East crisis.

UN secretary general Kofi Annan, playing along, is in no hurry to take a hand. “It will be a while before fighting ends,” he says calmly. And Germany’s Angela Merkel thinks the kidnapped Israeli soldiers should be returned before any talk begins.

Britain’s Tony Blair would like to put an international force into southern Lebanon, but Bush put him off none too gently according to an open mike at the G-8 summit. Anyway, south Lebanon already has an international force. It is called UNIFIL, and it has never stopped Hizballah firing a single cross-border shot.

All the world powers assembled in St. Petersburg for the G-8 summit agreed that Hizballah started the war as Tehran’s proxy terrorist arm. They picked up on the attitude of the US president, who is telling Israel: Let it run; but keep civilian casualties down and don’t kick too much Lebanese infrastructure.

Even Arab governments, which automatically fought any Israeli military action in the past, have formed a solid Sunni Muslim front, led by Saudi Arabia, which is content to watch the ****e Hizballah take a beating and the burgeoning Shiite assertiveness in the region squashed.

The Olmert government is eagerly exploiting this leisurely international climate to smash as much of Hizballah’s terror machine as he can before Washington holds up a stop sign. Monday, July 17, a clutch of would-be ceasefire brokers descended on Beirut and Jerusalem. None came with Bush’s nod, so they will not get very far.

In Tehran, the hardline supreme ruler, Ayatollah Khamenei, picked up on the prospect of the only export arm of Iran’s Shiite revolution facing a hammering in a drawn-out conflict. Sunday, July 16, four days into the hostilities, he spoke his first words in support for Hizballah. Typically, he struck out at UN Security Council resolution 1559 when he declared: No one will ever disarm the Hizballah.

On the same day, when black clouds of rockets and warplanes filled the skies of Lebanon and northern Israel, both Tehran and Damascus made a point of supporting Syria – not Hizballah – against a possible Israel attack.

This was seen by DEBKAfile’s Iranian sources as a jab at Bush and Rice first, Israel second.

This poker game between Tehran and Washington is going back and forth over the heads of Israel and Lebanon. It is the cause of the muddled statements coming from Israeli leaders with regard to the targets of the Lebanon campaign. They range from recovering the kidnapped soldiers, to smashing the Hizballah, breaking up its terrorist infrastructure (what about its personnel?), moving their positions back from the Israeli border to one kilometer or more (depending on the estimated range of their rockets), and forcing the Lebanese government to displace the Hizballah in the south and disarming the Shiite terrorists as ordered by the Security Council.

Meanwhile, no more than 25% of Hizballah’s arsenal has been destroyed in Israel’s six-day air blitz and cannonade, and no one is quite sure what surprises are in store in the form of long-range, heavy rockets or missiles, what hardware is being smuggled from Iran via Syria past the Israeli blockade, and whether either or both will intervene at some point – and how.

The green light flashing in Washington may give Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert a latitude never before granted any Israeli premier. But it also tells the Islamic Republic that its rulers’ meddling in Iraq carries a high price tag. By pulverizing Iran’s surrogate, Israel is articulating America’s determination to smash Iran’s strength and positions of influence around the Middle East and the Persian Gulf.

This determination was sparked by an unnoticed incident in Iraq on July 4, 2006.

On that day, for the first time in the Iraq War, Nasrallah activated the three-year old sleeper terror and sabotage networks Iranian and Hizballah intelligence had established across Iraq shortly after the US invasion. He was obeying orders from Iranian supreme ruler Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

America’s Day of Independence 2006 was selected for this group to make its first low-key attacks against US forces in Baghdad and British units in Basra and break surface under the name of The Abu al Fadal al Abas Brigades. No one had heard of it because Tehran had kept this Iraqi arm of Hizballah dark as the ultimate weapon to spring on the Americans in Iraq at the appropriate moment.

President Bush saw that if he looked away and let Iran’s challenge burst into full-blown action without responding, America’s standing in Iraq and the rest of the region would be forfeit. He was further stirred into a response by Tehran’s developing appetite for quick gains. On July 12, believing they had got away with it in Iraq, Iran and Hizballah followed it up by opening a second front against Israel, America’s ally: the Shiite terrorists kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.

That was the last straw, but George W. Bush turned it around as a boomerang to hit Tehran. The Israeli Defense Forces, there to hand, were more than ready to punish Hizballah and had been raring to go after five years of forced restraint against the Lebanese group and Palestinian terrorists. For Bush, this course offered America the chance of a bold, efficient blow against a Shiite extremist terrorist group without a single American soldier having to step onto the battlefield.

Therefore, Israel’s Operation Just Reward, which started out as a rescue operation for its two abducted soldiers, then a campaign to push Hizballah back from its border, within six days opened Lebanon up as a major arena for the showdown building up between the United States and Tehran over a whole bagful of issues - not least Iran’s nuclear defiance. However, the unacknowledged object of Israel’s campaign is none of the highly rational goals outlined by officials. It is to satisfy Washington that Tehran has been given a bloody nose and is ready to pull back from its deepening political, military and intelligence interference in Iraq.

To this end, Bush decided to let the armed forces of the Jewish state strike out against a fundamentalist Islamic force. For Israel, this is a first, a chance awaited since the first Gulf War of 1991 to get its own back on the radical Arab assailants besetting the country. This chance was denied even when it came under attack from Saddam Hussein’s missiles in 1991. Israel was then consistently held back from ridding itself of the vicious Palestinian suicide terror launched in 2000, leaving the conflict unresolved to this day. Israel was kept on the sidelines of the US global war on terror, even though it targeted the Jewish state no less than the West.

Now, Ehud Olmert has picked up the gauntlet handed by Washington and decided to settle a long score with a Shiite terror group plaguing Israel from its northern border. He has plunged the country into a conflict that may well draw Iran and Syria in on the side of the enemy.

No one can tell how it will come out.

Israeli generals and officials asked about the objectives of this war are cagey; they can’t tell what will eventuate in the next 24 hours – and not only because of the uncertain fortunes of war. The tricky test is to correlate Israeli and American interests from one day to the next. Hizballah keeps on threatening “new surprises,” because its leaders are also playing their tactics by ear, dependent on the support and weapons Tehran judges it politic to release.

The conflict may only just be at the beginning. None of the main players show any eagerness to cut it short before they attain their purpose.

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Why are we in Iraq in the first place?

Bottom line is the only people Saddam was a threat to was his own people. He knew that any action against the U.S. would result in a swift destruction. And don't use 9-11 as an excuse either.
How many Iraqis were part of the hijack team?
Zero, they were mainly Saudis. If that is your arguement why are we not rolling over Saudi Arabia like a steamroller?
Our troops should have stayed in Afghanistan and rooted out Osama. But no, our genius president decided to go to Iraq.
Here's another ugly truth right wingers refuse to mention.
WE SOLD SADDAM ANTHRAX SPORES AND OTHER CHEMICAL WEAPONS!!!!!!
It was during the Iraq-Iran war, they were fighting our enemy, so Reagan and his administration basically said "the enemy of our enemy is our friend".
Without even considering the implications of their actions. Another point that's never mentioned is we trained Osama and several freaks like him, during the Russian-Afghani war in the eighties.
We cannot be the world's police, I still can't believe 51% of this great nation reelected this guy.
Beside Bush is not the "president" he's simply Cheney's puppet.
Cheney knew he could never get elected, even though he is freaking brilliant(I will concede that), he has the charisma of dirty gym sock.
Am I the only person seeing this?

I'm sure this going to attract some flames, but you know what? I don't care, it needs to be said.
So.....FLAME ON *****ES!!!!:D

I welcome debate, although I don't respond to belligerant ignorance.
 
Please start another thread. We're here to discuss the Israel-Hezbollah-Hamas war, not your half baked ramblings about the war in Iraq and our president.
 
fbxdan said:
An American flag flew high over the ship for everyone to see when it was attacked. How is that friendly fire? Former Secretary of state Dean Rusk, and almost every senior member in American intelligence agree it was not an accident. Israel stated they attacked us because they mistook us for the egyptian "el quseir ship". However, the ship was in internationl waters away from fighting and flew a huge, bright new American flag. How can that be an accident?

I respect that both you kwyckemynd00 have done your research. But, my question to you (which i ask in all earnesty). Is why should America support Israel?

I don't know what your point is in bringing up the Liberty incident. Admittedly, I am not that well informed on the details of the incident. But that is history. We have a lot of past grievance against our present allies and friends. A country is not a living organism in itself. The British today are not responsible for what their ancestors did to us during our war of independence. What the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese did to us, cannot be held against the people of Germany and Japan. The people who were responsible for the Liberty incident, were not the same Israelis today. If a group of individuals did something wrong, that is not inaccordance to their national policy, you don't make a mountain out of mole hills.

As to why we should support Israel, I can give a summary of the reasons.

1. It is one of us. A true democracy. A westernized country besieged by terrorism. If you don't support western democracy, then what do you support?

2. Israel has been a valuable ally during the Cold War. You may not remember the time when the world was under the siege of communism.

3. Israel is in the fore front of our global war against Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda has a plan to world conquest by any mean... and Israel is in the middle of it. Invalid Link Removed
 
They're not "half-baked" ramblings, they are simply my view of how our government has mismanaged our resources and standing in the world community.

Our presence and involvement with these freak's squabbles puts our horse in a race it has no place in. We should back out and observe very closely and let them kill each other off, and the second they infringe upon us. We simply wipe them off of the face of the earth.
We can't change thousands of years of their "culture"(i'm using that term very loosely).
We are dealing with a society that is just barely above the level of animals.

I'm an Army and Navy veteran, between duty stations and naval cruises. I'm willing to bet I'm a lot more exposed to world politics than most other people on this board or otherwise.
Does that make my view more educated and valid?
Yes it does, I was in the miltary during Clinton's tenure I was never accosted or hassled by anyone in a foreign land, including the middle east(Egypt, Turkey, and Bahrain.

I keep contact with a few of my old shipmates and Army buddies who are still in, and they have been treated like red-headed stepchildren in most places they go to now. Some of the old hands said they were never treated this way during Bush1 or Reagan's tenure.
Something is wrong with this whole picture.
Like it or not the world's view of us is very important.
 
It is.

But it's not the most important thing, especially when other world leaders are so hypocritical.

I find it particularly amusing that the Russians are criticizing the Israelis and their lack of restraint. Since when have the Russians ever exercised any restraint in anything? Look at how they treat the Chechens. Look at the way they treated the Afghans, the Hungarians, the Czechs, etc.

The French exercise so much restraint that they didn't fire a single shot in defense of Paris when the Nazis marched in.

It is easy for the French, the Russians, and most of the world to criticize us for our aggressiveness when they are not the ones who have been attacked. Notice how the Japanese are considering preemptive strikes against North Korea? Everything changes when you are threatened. Was Iraq a threat? Looking back, no. But hindsight is always 20/20. In the end, the world and the Middle East will be a better place without Saddam in power.

And for the record, the overwhelming support of military personnel and their families for the president is very telling.
 
All in all, I think that whole part of the world is fvcked. Its a combination of various western government foreign policies, the world's dependency on petroleum, and the overal twisted viewpoint of fundamentalist Islam that have let us to the brink of world war 3.

I dont like President Bush, I dont like violence, and I hate seeing innocent people suffer. But whatever led up to a portion of Islamic society wanting to see Americans butchered on video is proof enough to me that they need to be stopped, and stopped now. I know that there's issues consider on both sides, and neither side is totally right or wrong...but when it comes down to it our side is the side I'm on by default. Trying to pussyfoot around and try to be politically correct, even compassionate, will only get you killed.

At the root of it, its a battle of conflicting religious ideals, as it has been for 1000's of years. Layered over top of that is money, power, and greed in the guise of righteousness and compassion.

And just think, after we've spent all our resources uprooting and destroying the extreemists from the mideast, and have built a desert into a democracy, China will be waiting with open arms to sell them all the inexpensive material crap they need to feel like a productive part of modern society.

:)
BV
 
You have a good point BV. They've been fighting for thousands of years. I don't think its going to stop soon. Even if we come to reach a cease-fire to make both groups happy, they still hate eachother. It's in their blood. I'm just afraid we're opening a can of worms that won't be closed easy. Look at Iraq. There's still violence there everyday and theres no sign of it getting better.

Hizbollah was called "the most organized group in the Middle East." by the Wall St Journal, adding, "They're very professional." They rose from being a small offshoot group in Lebanon to virtually calling the shots in that country. And we have Iran and their common radical beliefs to thank for that.

I also read that Nasrallahs son died fighting Israel, and, when regarding his son's body, paused no longer than he did over the other bodies of the slain terrorists.

This 'party of God' we're dealing with is a bunch of fanatical, blood-thirsty people. Anyone who denies the right of another race of people to exist MUST be stopped. That sort of radical thinking in our globalized world can only lead to terrible things.
 
Bigdaddyandy said:
They're not "half-baked" ramblings, they are simply my view of how our government has mismanaged our resources and standing in the world community.

Our presence and involvement with these freak's squabbles puts our horse in a race it has no place in. We should back out and observe very closely and let them kill each other off, and the second they infringe upon us. We simply wipe them off of the face of the earth.
We can't change thousands of years of their "culture"(i'm using that term very loosely).
We are dealing with a society that is just barely above the level of animals.

I'm an Army and Navy veteran, between duty stations and naval cruises. I'm willing to bet I'm a lot more exposed to world politics than most other people on this board or otherwise.
Does that make my view more educated and valid?
Yes it does, I was in the miltary during Clinton's tenure I was never accosted or hassled by anyone in a foreign land, including the middle east(Egypt, Turkey, and Bahrain.

I keep contact with a few of my old shipmates and Army buddies who are still in, and they have been treated like red-headed stepchildren in most places they go to now. Some of the old hands said they were never treated this way during Bush1 or Reagan's tenure.
Something is wrong with this whole picture.
Like it or not the world's view of us is very important.

No offense, but I doubt your world view is that accurate or detailed. You should have known that we have never trained Osama. In fact, Osama was going about in Afghanistan, threatening to kill our operatives all the time. We never supplied him, nor trained him nor dealed with him. We have dealed with groups that were friendly to him. But that doesn't mean anything.

We have never sold Iraq Anthrax spores nor chemical weapons. That is pure garbage. The Iraqis bought dual use agriculture equipments and chemicals that were converted for weapon use. (What's next? The US supplied Timothy McVeigh with explosives? Afterall, the US sold him a ton of Ammonia Nitrate. :rolleyes: ) The biggest Saddam suppliers were the French, the German, the Russian and the Chinese. Any doubt why they are still dead set against the overthrown of Saddam?

Besides, if you think the military was better off under Clinton, then you really don't much clue about what went on.....

No offence to our friends in uniform. Just b/c someone is military, does not mean he knows what is going on. I know a lot of military guys whose military career evolves bouncing between intoxication and intercourse. lol The military is huge and diverse. Not everyone is in the know.
 
You have a good point BV. They've been fighting for thousands of years. I don't think its going to stop soon. Even if we come to reach a cease-fire to make both groups happy, they still hate eachother. It's in their blood. I'm just afraid we're opening a can of worms that won't be closed easy. Look at Iraq. There's still violence there everyday and theres no sign of it getting better.

Hizbollah was called "the most organized group in the Middle East." by the Wall St Journal, adding, "They're very professional." They rose from being a small offshoot group in Lebanon to virtually calling the shots in that country. And we have Iran and their common radical beliefs to thank for that.

I also read that Nasrallahs son died fighting Israel, and, when regarding his son's body, paused no longer than he did over the other bodies of the slain terrorists.

This 'party of God' we're dealing with is a bunch of fanatical, blood-thirsty people. Anyone who denies the right of another race of people to exist MUST be stopped. That sort of radical thinking in our globalized world can only lead to terrible things.

You're right, and I dont see the situation over there getting any better any time soon. If fact, Ill wager it gets a LOT worse. The US attempts to go out if its way to target military targets and prevent civilian casualties. The terrorists, on the other hand, go out of their way to target civilians. They dont care if their children or loved ones die, because according to their method of though they'll become 'martyrs' and lead a better life in heaven. They're a truly deranged bunch of maniacs. Very similar to the mentality the Japanese had in WW2. And think of what happened to end that mentality.

I think it will take a similar amount of misery and destruction to change the mentality in the middle east. There's no way they'll win, the US and its allies have far too much destructive power in their arsenals to allow for that, but thinking of the amount of bloodshed on both sides that's going to spill in the process really sickens me.

You know what the world needs? A full scale alien invasion. Seriously, Im not saying that to be silly...only something of that magnitude would be big enough for people to drop their bull**** cultural differences and unite together for the preservation of the species.

Otherwise, genetically, I think humans are bound to pull this **** until we evolve out of it, or destroy ourselves.


BV
 
jrkarp, i'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind.

But, you validated my arguement with this statement.....

"It is easy for the French, the Russians, and most of the world to criticize us for our aggressiveness when they are not the ones who have been attacked. Notice how the Japanese are considering preemptive strikes against North Korea? Everything changes when you are threatened. Was Iraq a threat? Looking back, no. But hindsight is always 20/20. In the end, the world and the Middle East will be a better place without Saddam in power."

We had many bigger fish to fry than Saddam, he was an easy target and we thought it be like Desert Storm.
Let's face it, I've had parties that lasted longer than Desert Storm.
I'm not defending Saddam he is a rotten person down to the core. We should have located and taken out Osama and his upper henchmen before we even considered invading Iraq.

Kim Jong Ill, is a bigger threat than Saddam, he should have been a higher priority than him.

We need to keep our noses out of other people's fights.
We have nothing to gain by getting involved with this mess.

We have to keep very close tabs on them and even closer tabs on what's going on in our own borders. And if anyone or any group becomes a threat to us, eliminate them.
 
LOL @ The alien invasion. But like I said to my co-worker, a marine from WW2 ... "At least we could see the Japanese" These f*ckers disappear before the smoke clears. The only way we're going to get them is door-to-door, house-to-house CQC in my opinion.
 
BioHazzard said:
No offense, but I doubt your world view is that accurate or detailed. You should have known that we have never trained Osama. In fact, Osama was going about in Afghanistan, threatening to kill our operatives all the time. We never supplied him, nor trained him nor dealed with him. We have dealed with groups that were friendly to him. But that doesn't mean anything.

We have never sold Iraq Anthrax spores nor chemical weapons. That is pure garbage. The Iraqis bought dual use agriculture equipments and chemicals that were converted for weapon use. (What's next? The US supplied Timothy McVeigh with explosives? Afterall, the US sold him a ton of Ammonia Nitrate. :rolleyes: ) The biggest Saddam suppliers were the French, the German, the Russian and the Chinese. Any doubt why they are still dead set against the overthrown of Saddam?

Besides, if you think the military was better off under Clinton, then you really don't much clue about what went on.....


This was on the history channel last year, are they just making **** up?

It's also a fact that we supplied the Afghanis
with money and arms to fight the Russians invading them.

Don't bash me just because you don't like what I'm trying to tell you.
And for the record military personnel got more pay raises under Clinton's tenure.
 
Bigdaddyandy said:
This was on the history channel last year, are they just making **** up?

It's also a fact that we supplied the Afghanis
with money and arms to fight the Russians invading them.

Don't bash me just because you don't like what I'm trying to tell you.
And for the record military personnel got more pay raises under Clinton's tenure.
Do you believe everything you saw on TV? If they said those things as you claimed, then they are dead wrong. Just because you saw on History Channel that the moon is made of cheese, doesn't make it so. BTW, I thought you based everything on your military career that exposed you to worldview. Didn't know it is from History Channel instead.

We supplied the Afghans. Osama is not an Afghan. I am sure History Channel didn't confuse that part.

For record, morale hit rock bottom and personnels were bailing out of the military. Hardcore war fighting training went down the toilet. Political correct pussyfooting garbage went way up. Under Clinton.

Under Bush, re-up is up. And this is during wartime.

It appears that your military 'exposure' reflects 2 things: You feel that you didn't get beat up as often at foreign bars and you got a pay raise, back then. :D

I don't care for what you are trying to tell me, because they contradict the facts. Sorry to be blunt.
 
RenegadeRows said:
LOL @ The alien invasion. But like I said to my co-worker, a marine from WW2 ... "At least we could see the Japanese" These f*ckers disappear before the smoke clears. The only way we're going to get them is door-to-door, house-to-house CQC in my opinion.
I prefer to nuk'em from orbit. :D
 
BioHazzard said:
Most evangelical Christians support Israel. But that is not the reason we support Israel.


You don't really believe that. Because if you do, that means it is ok for me to go over and rob you and rape the girls in your household. Afterall, there is no right or wrong, no?

What makes us civilized people is our sense of what is right vs wrong. If you don't know nor distinguish what is right vs wrong, then you are just a primitive animal driven by a survival instinct. That mean we should cage you or shoot you. Your choice. :D

This is straying off topic, but YES I do believe that. If you tried to go over and rob me and rape the girls it would result in your death. There's about 20 guns in this house, and I'm a pretty good shot :). There is no universal right and wrong, it is all individual is what I am saying.
 
fbxdan said:
This is straying off topic, but YES I do believe that. If you tried to go over and rob me and rape the girls it would result in your death. There's about 20 guns in this house, and I'm a pretty good shot :). There is no universal right and wrong, it is all individual is what I am saying.
So what you are saying is, you would go to rob and murder and rape, if you can get away with it? :think:

Are you saying if I can get away with it, and if I believe it is right for me to go and rob and kill and rape, then that is ok, because it is really up to me, the individue to decide what is right and wrong? That means, the law cannot and should not touch me, because it is my individual right to decide what is right and wrong. :whiner:
 
BioHazzard said:
I don't know what your point is in bringing up the Liberty incident. Admittedly, I am not that well informed on the details of the incident. But that is history. We have a lot of past grievance against our present allies and friends. A country is not a living organism in itself. The British today are not responsible for what their ancestors did to us during our war of independence. What the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese did to us, cannot be held against the people of Germany and Japan. The people who were responsible for the Liberty incident, were not the same Israelis today. If a group of individuals did something wrong, that is not inaccordance to their national policy, you don't make a mountain out of mole hills.

As to why we should support Israel, I can give a summary of the reasons.

1. It is one of us. A true democracy. A westernized country besieged by terrorism. If you don't support western democracy, then what do you support?

2. Israel has been a valuable ally during the Cold War. You may not remember the time when the world was under the siege of communism.

3. Israel is in the fore front of our global war against Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda has a plan to world conquest by any mean... and Israel is in the middle of it. Invalid Link Removed

Israel it not a democracy. I think now you have to do your research. What democracies make it illegal for people of two different religions to marry? As for the statement Al Qaeda has a plan to world conquest at any means... This is true, and if given the chance they'd behead me for being an American. I have no sympathy for the islamic religion either. So if you have me pegged as a liberal you are completely and utterly wrong. I can continue arguing with you but it will accomplish nothing. Your and my views are completely different on this subject. I can see the faults of both sides, and you can only see the Israeli side.
 
I think that anyone who is viewing this thread should view one of the latest articles by Patrick Buchanan Invalid Link Removed It conveys alot of my opnions on the current situation.
 
fbxdan said:
Israel it not a democracy. I think now you have to do your research. What democracies make it illegal for people of two different religions to marry?

Democracy is a system of government. The concept of democracy has nothing to do with religious or social restrictions or norms.
 
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