Silver is taking P-Plex to the XTreme (Xtreme Tren that is).

[Silver3CSRT8]

Quick update from my mobile. Weight dropped to 203.5 down from my max of 208.5. I think I need to ensure I am eating more and keeping my water intake higher. Due to Tim's frequent recommendation I bought some CoQ-10 to supplement with the additional hawthorn berry. I will give 50mg per day a shot.

I am kinda disappointed about the weight loss, but it is probably my fault. I will ensure I eat BIG the last 2 weeks.

 

[DLM5]

Quick update from my mobile. Weight dropped to 203.5 down from my max of 208.5. I think I need to ensure I am eating more and keeping my water intake higher. Due to Tim's frequent recommendation I bought some CoQ-10 to supplement with the additional hawthorn berry. I will give 50mg per day a shot.

I am kinda disappointed about the weight loss, but it is probably my fault. I will ensure I eat BIG the last 2 weeks.

Well looking at your pre cycle pics you have so much room to grow with your frame, I'd have thought you'd have gained more. Bummer that your not gaining the weight you wanted, but a few positives..
1. your gonna get a better idea how much you need to eat to gain the LBM you want to on cycle.
2. you are feeling as lean as you have been, and your wife has noticed. So maybe your not gaining the mass you wanted.. but a recomp with some LBM gain is awesome too..

 

[TimberLakers]

I bet two years ago you'd never think you'd be tellin yourself you're not eatin enough... Eat big the next few weeks to the finish line.

 

[thundergod]

Hey Silver. The doctor that you go to now.....is it the same doctor you had when you were so much heavier? What does he have to say about all of your weightloss? I bet he's very happy with your transformation. Your cholesterol levels and bodyfat% must be greatly improved. Thereby improving your over-all health.
You have not only transformed your visual appearance but also your physical well-being in the process.
Way to go my brother!! :fing02:

 

[AZMIDLYF]

Nothing but a winning situation happening here for sure!! You are on the right road now Silver.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

I feel better today. I think 2 factors were contributing to my weight drop.
1. I wasn't eating like I should have.
2. I wasn't drinking enough and think I was dehydrated.

I have been feeling a tad under the weather and when I feel blah eating and drinking water are not high on my priorities. After taking a leak and noticing the darker color (sorry for the urine talk again) I said enough is enough. I think I drank 5-6 liters of water after that and I also ate well.

Today weight was back up to the 207 mark which is where I feel it should be by now.

As for the Dr., he didn't really say much on the weight changes, but he has seen me at my worst of 265lbs of pure fat. Regardless I feel like a completely different person with much more confidence, stamina, strength and an improved outlook on life. I have to thank you guys for the constant motivation and support.

 

[GMG760]

Silver... Buddy...

Weight DOES NOT EQUAL Lean mass.

From the looks of things you are shedding bodyfat like a madman. You can't expect consistent WEIGHT gains when you are losing bodyfat like you are. I bet your LBM has kept going up even though your Bodyweight has gone down. Until you are around 12% BF, you aren't gonna have consistent bodyweight, and even on roids, you can't build muscle as fast as you can burn fat.

Your pics are the proof in itself. You are a different freakin person than when I first started talking with you. Your change has been nothing short of remarkable. Let the fat come off, then concentrate on gaining the weight back in muscle. Id rather be a lean and mean 185 than a tubby 205 any day.

 

[carib102]

I've gotta agree with that. I put little faith in what the scale tells me, especially on a day to day basis as there are so many factors that can influence your weight on a daily basis. If the mirror is telling you that all is going well then that's much more important than what your weight is. You're making some awesome changes over the past year and a couple lost lbs because you're under the weather are no big deal.

GMG is right, you're losing fat like you're on crystal meth and that's a GOOD thing! Keep shredding that fat away until you're happy with your definition and then worry about putting on LEAN mass. I know it's hard, because I'm in the same boat as you...want to get rid of all the fat, but afraid to get too small. I've finally decided that if getting my abs back means going down to a bodyweight of 175 then so be it.

Keep working toward your goal Silver and I know you'll make it. We all want to see your 6 pack (no homo), so stay focused.

 

[Dragon13]

Meh... I both agree and disagree with the 2 above posters. I agree that weight will fluctuate (of course), and also that weighing in every day is probably counter-productive. Try weighing in every week; that will eliminate the "noise" and should be more than enough to measure progress. You want to "smooth the curve", so to speak.

That being said, I strongly disagree with any "lose the fat first" mindsets. If that was a goal, it needed to have been incorporated from the onset. This is about goals and priorities. Your stated goal was getting big and strong and to do that you have to eat. Have to eat. I made a post about this earlier in this thread, but in my opinion, if you are going to run PH/DS, either bulk or hard cut. These compounds are stressful on the body and I believe you should tailor your cycle to maximize their effects. The middle ground, the "lean bulking", doesn't do it. If you nail your nutrition (which is damn hard in and of itself), you end up sorta bigger and sorta leaner, and usually sorta happy with your progress. If that's your bag, fine. But I'd rather add several quality lbs of LBM and some fat in a bulk, then cut later, then try and do both. AAS makes the concept of "lean bulking" easier, but it's still difficult, and PH/DS orals, which necessitate short cycles, are far from ideal if one was trying to accomplish this.

Cliffs - eat up, weigh in once a week, and attack the weights. If you add lbs and are noticeably stronger at cycle's end then you done good.

 

[Dragon13]

Silver... Buddy...

Weight DOES NOT EQUAL Lean mass.

From the looks of things you are shedding bodyfat like a madman. You can't expect consistent WEIGHT gains when you are losing bodyfat like you are. I bet your LBM has kept going up even though your Bodyweight has gone down. Until you are around 12% BF, you aren't gonna have consistent bodyweight, and even on roids, you can't build muscle as fast as you can burn fat.

Your pics are the proof in itself. You are a different freakin person than when I first started talking with you. Your change has been nothing short of remarkable. Let the fat come off, then concentrate on gaining the weight back in muscle. Id rather be a lean and mean 185 than a tubby 205 any day.

The first part is exactly why the 2nd part is bad advice, IMO. But this is about Silver's goals and priorities.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

Day 21

90mg of XTreme Tren (30mg at 6:30AM, 30mg around 11:30AM and 30mg this evening)

30MG of P-Plex Day 1 (10mg at 6:30AM, 10mg around 11:30AM and 10mg this evening)

SUPPlEMENTS:
Supplements consisted of cycle support, fish oil, vitamin C, vitamin B complex, chasteberry and taurine.

MEASUREMENTS & WEIGHT:

Last reading: 207.0lbs (+8.lbs) After a couple days of lowered weight due to my failure to eat like I should and consume enough water I am back to 207. I will make sure I grow from here to finish this thing at 10+lbs gain.

STRENGTH/ENDURANCE:

Still a little under the weather, but a good warrior perseveres. I will not be stopped nor will I miss a workout. That being said today was an off day, but I hit the cardio digging trenches for my sprinkler system.

SIDES:


1) LIBIDO - Not craving sex like a lunitic, but no problems performing.
2) BP - 149/88 Will try to go by and get an automated reading at CVS today or tomorrow. Been dosing CoQ-10 at 50mg for 2 days along with the additional HB.
3) AGGRESSION - Agression is still heightened and the wife says I have been bitchy. I will try to get a handle on that. I think some is due to feeling under the weather.
4) HAIR LOSS - Holy crap all my hair fell out (oh wait that was years ago).
5) GYNO SYMPTOMS - None
6) TESTICULAR ATROPHY - Maybe minor atrophy, but they are still hanging pretty low.
7) MISC. - The only sides I have had with this combo have been back pumps and pretty constant lower back soreness. Besides that and hightened aggression this has been an awesome cycle.

MOOD/ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE:

Down to the last 2 weeks of the cycle. I think I will be bumping the Xtreme Tren to 120mg for the last 6 days of the Tren portion and stick with P-Plex at 30mg. The last 6 days of the last P-Plex week I will bump up to 40mg to finish this cycle strong.

The Workout
Off day today. Definately had a little manual labor cardio while digging a few trenches to repair my sprinkler system. That is fun with a sore back.

THOUGHTS:

I feel better today after seeing the scale. Yesterday I was like WTF is going on. I corrected the issues that I feel were responsible and I am staying hydrated now.

 

[GMG760]

The first part is exactly why the 2nd part is bad advice, IMO. But this is about Silver's goals and priorities.

Damn, one post wasn't enough bagging on what I said?

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I never once told Silver that he shouldn't eat, or he should concentrate on "cutting" for that matter.

I was talking about the difference between LBM and actual body weight being a big difference in the "gains" he is making. Not that he should forgo trying to build muscle, but that he should concentrate on reality, not the scale.

The fact of the matter is for him to achieve his goals, he is probably going to lose a bit of weight. But his LBM will be much higher than before, which is all that really matters... since last time I checked fat doesn't move the weights for you.

But in your case, you are trying to tell me that Silver should stop working on all that he has gone through, stop his goal of seeing his abs, lose all his momentum, maybe reverse it by gaining some fat along the way... just to see an extra 10lbs on THE SCALE?! Re-god-damn-dic-u-lous.

My point being, Silver, it doesn't matter if you are 220 or 280 if you are out of shape... Once you figure out what it takes to get to the BF% that you want to be, then figure out what you are gonna do to get to the weight that you want. If it is to put on a bit of weight and even some fat, then so be it, but learn what it takes to get that fat back off. Don't go losing what you have worked for just to prove a point to the scale. You aren't doing this for anyone but yourself.

The fact that you can be changing your LBM so fast that you are actually gaining weight, is incredible. Don't take your eyes off the prize, which in the end is an entirely new you in the mirror.

 

[TimberLakers]

The first part is exactly why the 2nd part is bad advice, IMO. But this is about Silver's goals and priorities.

That doesn't make it bad advice. In a highly anabolic environment - he can actually do both quite well.

A cycle isn't pinned to either losing weight OR building muscle.

 

[GMG760]

BTW Dragon, you are 260lbs. That's pretty freakin' massive. I assume that you are sub 20% bodyfat, correct?

 

[TimberLakers]

Eh, Silver... I don't think you should be upping the dosage - particularly with PPlex for the last few days with your BP being elevated like it is. Chances are it will have zero effect on your gains.

 

[TimberLakers]

BTW Dragon, you are 260lbs. That's pretty freakin' massive. I assume that you are sub 20% bodyfat, correct?

:lol: I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Dragon13]

Damn, one post wasn't enough bagging on what I said?

LOL, come on bro, bagging? Easy there, just a disagreement.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I never once told Silver that he shouldn't eat, or he should concentrate on "cutting" for that matter.

I was talking about the difference between LBM and actual body weight being a big difference in the "gains" he is making. Not that he should forgo trying to build muscle, but that he should concentrate on reality, not the scale.

The fact of the matter is for him to achieve his goals, he is probably going to lose a bit of weight. But his LBM will be much higher than before, which is all that really matters... since last time I checked fat doesn't move the weights for you.

But in your case, you are trying to tell me that Silver should stop working on all that he has gone through, stop his goal of seeing his abs, lose all his momentum, maybe reverse it by gaining some fat along the way... just to see an extra 10lbs on THE SCALE?! Re-god-damn-dic-u-lous.

You missed the point here GMG. I did not say the # on the scale is all-important, nor that Silver should be a slave to the scale but... yes he does need to see the scale going up over time. This is a bulk! Unless I'm mistaken, Silver said his goal here is to get big and strong. The goal of seeing his abs needs to be addressed at a different time. The whole point of my post was, while running these compounds, do one or the other - not both. Suggesting that he doesn't need to worry about the scale going down means 1 of 2 things: 1) he isn't eating enough to fuel growth; 2) the Tren is burning off fat while allowing LBM to be added. IMO you are giving the Tren product waaaay too much credit as a fatburner. This isn't tren ace, it's a tren PH. Anyways, perhaps it might help if I shared this:

During a bulk, there is 1 way and ONLY 1 way to know you are growing muscle at the maximum possible rate - by getting a little fatter. Sound counter-intuitive? Think about this: adding muscle is the body's last priority metabolically. As in, dead last. Once every other function is taken care of calorically, then and only then will the body synthesize new proteins. It is impossible to know how fast your body will grow, or IOW how many excess calories will be needed to build muscle given the proper stimulus (read: lifting weights). So the only way to know is to eat enough so that you do add a bit of fat. At that point, you know you are in a true caloric excess, i.e. you are taking in more than you can use, and your body is building muscle at the maximum possible rate. You can then dial back the calories a bit at that point if you so choose, but you have to get there first.

Silver said he is bulking. I am working under the assumption that he is then trying to grow muscle at the maximum possible rate. Therefore, he should be seeing general upwards movement in the scale (based on observations over weeks, not days), coupled with increased strength/endurance in the gym. Assuming the compounds he is using work as advertised, the absence of either of the above will ususally mean the kcals are too low.

My point being, Silver, it doesn't matter if you are 220 or 280 if you are out of shape... Once you figure out what it takes to get to the BF% that you want to be, then figure out what you are gonna do to get to the weight that you want. If it is to put on a bit of weight and even some fat, then so be it, but learn what it takes to get that fat back off. Don't go losing what you have worked for just to prove a point to the scale. You aren't doing this for anyone but yourself.

The fact that you can be changing your LBM so fast that you are actually gaining weight, is incredible. Don't take your eyes off the prize, which in the end is an entirely new you in the mirror.

I see you point re: the scale and I agree with it. However, in the context of this cycle, I still maintain he needs to see the scale moving up coupled with increases in strength over the course of this run. There is no other way to know he is growing as fast as his body and the AAS' will allow.

 

[Dragon13]

That doesn't make it bad advice. In a highly anabolic environment - he can actually do both quite well.

A cycle isn't pinned to either losing weight OR building muscle.

True, but IMO a cycle is best served doing one or the other, especially when we're talking OTC compunds and not pinned AAS. (Pun intended, BTW?)

 

[TimberLakers]

True, but IMO a cycle is best served doing one or the other, especially when we're talking OTC compunds and not pinned AAS. (Pun intended, BTW?)

Unintentional pun... but nice catch.

 

[Dragon13]

BTW Dragon, you are 260lbs. That's pretty freakin' massive. I assume that you are sub 20% bodyfat, correct?

Unknown, but at this point in the bulk cycle, if I am, I'm probably pretty damn close. :bigeyes2:

I have had 1 BF% test in my life, which coincided with what was the best shape I was ever in. I measured in at 12.7% at 244 lbs in 2002. So knowing what I looked like at 13%, my conditioning is nowhere near that right now, and in fact it has reached a point where I have a cut planned for after the 1-T run (which ends this week).

 

[TimberLakers]

I think there is definitely a happy medium to be had. This cycle isn't get retarded huge or see a six pack... Once cycle won't do either of those for Silver. However, I would, and have leaned towards a heavy bulk for this cycle with excess calories. Main reason being that I don't think that AAS should be used for cutting cycles.

 

[GMG760]

I dunno dude, the first post was disagreeing with me, the second was saying that I am giving out bad advice, which to me seems like bagging on what I say. No feelings hurt here, just you turned it from your opinion on the matter into discrediting me, which is where the difference lies.

 

[Dragon13]

I think there is definitely a happy medium to be had. This cycle isn't get retarded huge or see a six pack... Once cycle won't do either of those for Silver. However, I would, and have leaned towards a heavy bulk for this cycle with excess calories. Main reason being that I don't think that AAS should be used for cutting cycles.

I tend to agree (with the 2nd part).

 

[GMG760]

I think there is definitely a happy medium to be had. This cycle isn't get retarded huge or see a six pack... Once cycle won't do either of those for Silver. However, I would, and have leaned towards a heavy bulk for this cycle with excess calories. Main reason being that I don't think that AAS should be used for cutting cycles.

So which is a more successful cycle?

10lbs LBM, 10LBS Fat for a 20lbs gain,

Or a 10lbs LBM, 5 LBS Fat for a 15lbs gain?

I'd take the second ANY day of the week. Once again, I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about excess bodyweight.

 

[DLM5]

I think Silver should just bulk the fcuk up and get huge :sgrin:
Traps, shoulders, and lats so big he has to buy new shirts to fit him.

 

[Dragon13]

I dunno dude, the first post was disagreeing with me, the second was saying that I am giving out bad advice, which to me seems like bagging on what I say. No feelings hurt here, just you turned it from your opinion on the matter into discrediting me, which is where the difference lies.

I'm not trying to discredit you at all. I apologize if it came off that way. But, I do think the line "Let the fat come off, then concentrate on gaining the weight back in muscle" is bad advice in the context of this cycle. Actually, let me re-phrase that. I think it's bad advice the way it was written. I understand what you are trying to say, I think. You are saying Silver should not worry about the scale and allow the compounds to "recomp", correct?

The issue is, it sounds like you would have no problem if, say, Silver ended this cycle at exactly the same weight he started at, as long as he was a tad leaner. I disagree. He should be looking to build as much muscle as humanly possible while on. He's, what, 3 weeks in? These short oral cycles are not suited to a cut-then-bulk approach. So if he is indeed bulking, he does need to pay attention to the scale to ensure that he is getting as much as he can out of the cycle.

"Lean bulking" can be done naturally; my opinion is, if you are going to stress your body with anabolics, you may as well wring every ounce of new muscle you can out of it. Otherwise, the risk-to-benefit ratio starts to favor not using, at least when we're talking about DS/PH.

 

[Dragon13]

So which is a more successful cycle?

10lbs LBM, 10LBS Fat for a 20lbs gain,

Or a 10lbs LBM, 5 LBS Fat for a 15lbs gain?

I'd take the second ANY day of the week. Once again, I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about excess bodyweight.

Well of course. The problem is, in reality, the cycles would tend to look a lot more like:

10lbs LBM, 10LBS Fat for a 20lbs gain,

5lbs LBM, 5 LBS Fat for a 10lbs gain.

Then the question becomes a bit more complicated.

 

[GMG760]

I'm not trying to discredit you at all. I apologize if it came off that way. But, I do think the line "Let the fat come off, then concentrate on gaining the weight back in muscle" is bad advice in the context of this cycle. Actually, let me re-phrase that. I think it's bad advice the way it was written. I understand what you are trying to say, I think. You are saying Silver should not worry about the scale and allow the compounds to "recomp", correct?

The issue is, it sounds like you would have no problem if, say, Silver ended this cycle at exactly the same weight he started at, as long as he was a tad leaner. I disagree. He should be looking to build as much muscle as humanly possible while on. He's, what, 3 weeks in? These short oral cycles are not suited to a cut-then-bulk approach. So if he is indeed bulking, he does need to pay attention to the scale to ensure that he is getting as much as he can out of the cycle.

"Lean bulking" can be done naturally; my opinion is, if you are going to stress your body with anabolics, you may as well wring every ounce of new muscle you can out of it. Otherwise, the risk-to-benefit ratio starts to favor not using, at least when we're talking about DS/PH.

Well, now we are getting into steroid ethics, and my opinions of who should and shouldn't be using steroids I will keep to myself.

As far as the argument goes, I completely grasp where you are coming from... I just see a lot of overweight people on these boards using steroids with the plans of cutting later. It's all good as long as you don't get lazy.

Ultimately Silver is the only one who knows what he has to do. Sorry for clogging your log up with this bullsh*t homie, you have my support regardless.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

Guys I appreciate the dialog.

I know in my head that I had way more to accomplish naturally and should wait, get lean and reach my max genetic potential first. I also know I should have waited until marriage to have sex and wait until I was 21 to drink. Needless to say I don't do things by the book which is why I have used these designers to aid with my blood, sweat and tears.

I agree with you both and they are all valid points and counter points. My goals for this cycle was a 15lb gain. I am hoping for 10lbs of lean muscle gain optimistaclly. Now where I am at now I think I have probably gained 7lbs of muscle and I swear I have lost 2-3lbs of fat. I really don't feel like I have put on any fat during this cycle. When I ran Epi, my pants started fitting tigher when I hit the 207lb mark. This time they feel looser which makes me real happy.

As for upping the dose I will stick with my initial plan and just run 2 more days at 90mg rather than bumping up to 120mg for 6 days. Thanks for changing my mind and keeping me safe!

 

[TimberLakers]

So which is a more successful cycle?

10lbs LBM, 10LBS Fat for a 20lbs gain,

Or a 10lbs LBM, 5 LBS Fat for a 15lbs gain?

I'd take the second ANY day of the week. Once again, I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about excess bodyweight.

How on earth is that question directed at me? :think:

 

[TimberLakers]

Guys I appreciate the dialog.

I know in my head that I had way more to accomplish naturally and should wait, get lean and reach my max genetic potential first. I also know I should have waited until marriage to have sex and wait until I was 21 to drink. Needless to say I don't do things by the book which is why I have used these designers to aid with my blood, sweat and tears.

I agree with you both and they are all valid points and counter points. My goals for this cycle was a 15lb gain. I am hoping for 10lbs of lean muscle gain optimistaclly. Now where I am at now I think I have probably gained 7lbs of muscle and I swear I have lost 2-3lbs of fat. I really don't feel like I have put on any fat during this cycle. When I ran Epi, my pants started fitting tigher when I hit the 207lb mark. This time they feel looser which makes me real happy.

As for upping the dose I will stick with my initial plan and just run 2 more days at 90mg rather than bumping up to 120mg for 6 days. Thanks for changing my mind and keeping me safe!

Good call.

 

[GMG760]

How on earth is that question directed at me? :think:

You were talking about bulking vs cutting on steroids. I wanted to clear the air that I wasn't talking about cutting either, but that I would consider a bulk in which the ratio of muscle to fat was higher than one that gained more muscle but also put on more fat to re-arrange the ratio.

I know you and I think alike, I was just trying to keep my point coherent. Whatever, I'm over the subject, Silver can do whatever he wants and I'll back him up 100% in his decision.

 

[TimberLakers]

You were talking about bulking vs cutting on steroids. I wanted to clear the air that I wasn't talking about cutting either, but that I would consider a bulk in which the ratio of muscle to fat was higher than one that gained more muscle but also put on more fat to re-arrange the ratio.

I know you and I think alike, I was just trying to keep my point coherent. Whatever, I'm over the subject, Silver can do whatever he wants and I'll back him up 100% in his decision.

Dude, if I put on 10 pounds of fat and 10 pounds of muscle, I'd sh*t myself and turn bulemic... :lol:

I think bulking hard is possible whilst a minimal amount of fat is put on - perhaps 10 to 20% of LBM gain... I believe that is optimal. 50/50 is straight retarded. I could do that with food alone.

 

[tim1985]

Silver, you should probably be taking Coq10 2x a day. But if your BP is fine then don't bother.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

Silver, you should probably be taking Coq10 2x a day. But if your BP is fine then don't bother.

CoQ-10 is one of the most confusing supplements I have seen. It goes from 10mg to 300mg and I have no clue how much I need. I also didn't want to spend $50 for the last 2 weeks of the cycle because my blood pressure is a tad high. Therefore I opted for the 10mg version and I am dosing 30mg at lunch time, 20mg at 5:30PM both times with the extra cap of 650mg of hawthorn berry. I figured my evening/morning is covered with cycle assist since I take 4 caps at 10pm and 4 caps between 4am -6:30am.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

You were talking about bulking vs cutting on steroids. I wanted to clear the air that I wasn't talking about cutting either, but that I would consider a bulk in which the ratio of muscle to fat was higher than one that gained more muscle but also put on more fat to re-arrange the ratio.

I know you and I think alike, I was just trying to keep my point coherent. Whatever, I'm over the subject, Silver can do whatever he wants and I'll back him up 100% in his decision.

I appreciate you having my back since day 1 at AM. You and Timber among others help keep my head on straight and keep my focus on the prize.

Just got a call from one of my homies and might be taking a guys trip to Cabo early March. Now I gotta get swole, then get cut. That should be perfect timing as I will have just finished up my 4 week PCT. Now I really have something to work for!

 

[tim1985]

CoQ-10 is one of the most confusing supplements I have seen. It goes from 10mg to 300mg and I have no clue how much I need. I also didn't want to spend $50 for the last 2 weeks of the cycle because my blood pressure is a tad high. Therefore I opted for the 10mg version and I am dosing 30mg at lunch time, 20mg at 5:30PM both times with the extra cap of 650mg of hawthorn berry. I figured my evening/morning is covered with cycle assist since I take 4 caps at 10pm and 4 caps between 4am -6:30am.

LMAO! Yeah I noticed the mg's vary big time with that stuff and its kinda pricey. I didn't realize you were braking up the doses, so I think you should be ok(especially with the HB). The studies I read on it showed the test subjects were given 60mg 2x per day so that why I mentioned it. Keep up the good work buddy and I hope BP doesn't hinder you in any way.

 

[thundergod]

Unknown, but at this point in the bulk cycle, if I am, I'm probably pretty damn close. :bigeyes2:

I have had 1 BF% test in my life, which coincided with what was the best shape I was ever in. I measured in at 12.7% at 244 lbs in 2002. So knowing what I looked like at 13%, my conditioning is nowhere near that right now, and in fact it has reached a point where I have a cut planned for after the 1-T run (which ends this week).

So, in answer to GMG's question of are you below 20% bodyfat right now, it looks like you aren't? :thinking:
What kind of bulk-cycle are you on right now? I hope it's not AAS or even PH/PS for that matter. I don't even see why you're running a T-1 cycle knowing your bodyfat is this high. Do you think you need to bulk at your size? I personally don't think people who are 20% bodyfat or higher should be using these compounds. They work much better when you are at least 15% or below. The lower the better actually.
I'd really hate to be 20% or higher and be arm-chair advising others on what they should be doing. Really.

 

[TimberLakers]

I also think its mildly irresponsible to say how much "safer" inject cycles are... Yes, the side effects may be less, and the compounds more natural and safe - but any time an untrained medical professional is shoving needles into their muscle, you lose a few safety ranks in my book.

More power to people that want to inject, but I'm tired of hearing that its the ONLY way to go.

 

[AZMIDLYF]

^^^Agree TL. Not that orals are not to be taken seriously....but injecting needs a whole other level of dedication to details!!

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

I want to apologize to any that are offended by the title of my thread or the fact that I have repeadedly said Xtreme Tren or Tren when giving updates. I understand that Xtreme Tren is a 19-nor compound and not the real injectable Tren. Please don't be mislead by my use of Tren. Going forward I will use Tren (19-Nor) to detail my experiences.

 

[GMG760]

I want to apologize to any that are offended by the title of my thread or the fact that I have repeadedly said Xtreme Tren or Tren when giving updates. I understand that Xtreme Tren is a 19-nor compound and not the real injectable Tren. Please don't be mislead by my use of Tren. Going forward I will use Tren (19-Nor) to detail my experiences.

Nobody thinks you are using tren ace homie. You'd have to run testosterone with that one to do it right.

The whole Tren vs "Tren" hormones is stupid. If you are on injectable tren, you are on tren ace. If you are taking a bottle that says tren on it, you are taking what is in the bottle. The companies call it tren, it isn't your fault that is what it is called. The bottle says Xtreme Tren, that's what you said. No foul there.

BTW, it's not the 19-nor compound, it is the Estra compound in Xtreme Tren.

Are they the same thing btw? I am actually not sure if it is just different nomenclature or a different compound.

 

[GMG760]

I also think its mildly irresponsible to say how much "safer" inject cycles are... Yes, the side effects may be less, and the compounds more natural and safe - but any time an untrained medical professional is shoving needles into their muscle, you lose a few safety ranks in my book.

More power to people that want to inject, but I'm tired of hearing that its the ONLY way to go.

Steroids are steroids. It would be nice to inject, but at the same time you are leaving a lot up to yourself to make it safe... and I imagine a lot of people making their own homebrews and such aren't in the same league of safety as if your doctor was injecting you. I mean, REAL sterility is pretty hard to achieve in one's kitchen. It can be done, but is it a chemistry lab? Mine isn't.

A lot of why I don't inject has to do with the people that are in my life. Most of them don't think twice about me popping a few pills, but if I was injecting myself with testosterone even once a week, in their eyes I might as well be slamming speedballs twice a day.

With injection it goes from "supplement" to "drug" in most peoples mind. I know I would lose friends and loved ones if I was to be CAUGHT injecting steroids. Most of my friends and my girlfriend know I use "pro-hormones", yea it's a bit of a lie, but if it makes them sleep better at night... so be it.

 

[Dragon13]

So, in answer to GMG's question of are you below 20% bodyfat right now, it looks like you aren't? :thinking:
What kind of bulk-cycle are you on right now? I hope it's not AAS or even PH/PS for that matter. I don't even see why you're running a T-1 cycle knowing your bodyfat is this high. Do you think you need to bulk at your size? I personally don't think people who are 20% bodyfat or higher should be using these compounds. They work much better when you are at least 15% or below. The lower the better actually.
I'd really hate to be 20% or higher and be arm-chair advising others on what they should be doing. Really.

Dude, unknown means unknown. As I said, I have had 1 BF% test in my entire life. I know what I looked like at between 12-13%. I am not that lean now, partly b/c I have been bulking for several months, but I am far from obese, if that is what you are implying. This is all I have to go on.

I also find it ironic that in the same post you chastise me for "arm-chair advising", you do the same. Didn't I see a thread recently where you were running one of the most toxic anabolic substances on the planet? And you're handing out unsolicited cycling advice to me? And yes, I do think I have to bulk. When one's goals involve achieving a lean weight higher than that which one is currently at, adding muscle via a bulk is the only way that I know of to get there.

But that is all irrelevant. Do you agree or disagree that on this cycle, Silver should be looking to add as much muscle as humanly possible? That is the only question that matters.

To clarify once and for all: all my posts in this thread on this topic were geared towards one piece of advice - it is my opinion that when stressing the body with AAS/PH/DS on a bulk, it is very important to make sure you have a caloric surplus to maximize growth potential from the cycle. So-called "lean bulking" can be done naturally. Adding 10+ lbs of LBM in a few weeks is also going to be far easier to keep if your body reaches a higher "set point" in weight. I am also working under the assumption that "bulking" means the same thing to others as it does to me: gearing training and eating towards adding as much muscle as one's genetics will allow over a given time frame. Again, this is my opinion - feel free to disagree, preferably cordially.

Touchy group here. :surprised:

 

[TimberLakers]

I want to apologize to any that are offended by the title of my thread or the fact that I have repeadedly said Xtreme Tren or Tren when giving updates. I understand that Xtreme Tren is a 19-nor compound and not the real injectable Tren. Please don't be mislead by my use of Tren. Going forward I will use Tren (19-Nor) to detail my experiences.

:gives:

It's your log. Call it ogre piss if you want. You're not incorrect in the least. Like Money said, you didn't print the label - we all know what you're taking.

 

[Silver3CSRT8]

Nobody thinks you are using tren ace homie. You'd have to run testosterone with that one to do it right.

The whole Tren vs "Tren" hormones is stupid. If you are on injectable tren, you are on tren ace. If you are taking a bottle that says tren on it, you are taking what is in the bottle. The companies call it tren, it isn't your fault that is what it is called. The bottle says Xtreme Tren, that's what you said. No foul there.

BTW, it's not the 19-nor compound, it is the Estra compound in Xtreme Tren.

Are they the same thing btw? I am actually not sure if it is just different nomenclature or a different compound.

According to my bottle Xtreme Tren is 19-Norandrosta 4,9 diene- 3,17 dione. Is that the same thing as Estra that you are referring to.

 

[TimberLakers]

Dude, unknown means unknown. As I said, I have had 1 BF% test in my entire life. I know what I looked like at between 12-13%. I am not that lean now, partly b/c I have been bulking for several months, but I am far from obese, if that is what you are implying. This is all I have to go on.

I also find it ironic that in the same post you chastise me for "arm-chair advising", you do the same. Didn't I see a thread recently where you were running one of the most toxic anabolic substances on the planet? And you're handing out unsolicited cycling advice to me? And yes, I do think I have to bulk. When one's goals involve achieving a lean weight higher than that which one is currently at, adding muscle via a bulk is the only way that I know of to get there.

But that is all irrelevant. Do you agree or disagree that on this cycle, Silver should be looking to add as much muscle as humanly possible? That is the only question that matters.

To clarify once and for all: all my posts in this thread on this topic were geared towards one piece of advice - it is my opinion that when stressing the body with AAS/PH/DS on a bulk, it is very important to make sure you have a caloric surplus to maximize growth potential from the cycle. So-called "lean bulking" can be done naturally. Adding 10+ lbs of LBM in a few weeks is also going to be far easier to keep if your body reaches a higher "set point" in weight. I am also working under the assumption that "bulking" means the same thing to others as it does to me: gearing training and eating towards adding as much muscle as one's genetics will allow over a given time frame. Again, this is my opinion - feel free to disagree, preferably cordially.

Touchy group here. :surprised:

Lean bulking is possible without AAS... However, its easier and faster while on.

He's trying to lose weight too, I'm still unsure how you are advising someone on seeing a six pack someday when the leanest you've ever been is 12%

Silver is doin his thing. If you read his intro, he specifically said he wanted to gain LBM and lean out. You injecting your own theories really is the outlier here. He never said he wanted to go on a full-on bulk.

So yeah, don't shoot the messenger, but not everyone wants to be 260 @ 20%... You realize you're carrying ABOUT 15 pounds more LBM than GMG...

 

[GMG760]

According to my bottle Xtreme Tren is 19-Norandrosta 4,9 diene- 3,17 dione. Is that the same thing as Estra that you are referring to.

Wierd. My bottle is Estra-4,9-diene-3, 17-dione

You are using the Xtreme Tren by Tri-City Chemicals?

Weird, it must be the same thing with different nomenclature.

 

[AZMIDLYF]

Estra=19norandrost...same compound.

 

[carib102]

Oh man I want me some of that ogre piss...I hear that shizz is the most anabolic stuff going!