R.I.P. USP Labs

[Aleksandar37]

What product was "tainted" with something illegal?

When did I say it was something illegal? They pleaded guilty to lying to their customers, particularly when it came to safety and they were arrogant as hell about it. Don't take my word for it; anybody can read the indictment and what they pleaded guilty to. Prosecutors have shown the emails, so go and read their internal conversations if you haven't already. One of many shows them asking their Chinese supplier to use a fake COA, which enters dangerous territory.

I was responding to somebody giving the argument that customers shouldn't be upset that they were repeatedly lied to because look over here *shakes free sample bag*. That **** works on my dog, but customers deserve better.

 

[VaughnTrue]

When did I say it was something illegal? They pleaded guilty to lying to their customers, particularly when it came to safety and they were arrogant as hell about it. Don't take my word for it; anybody can read the indictment and what they pleaded guilty to. Prosecutors have shown the emails, so go and read their internal conversations if you haven't already. One of many shows them asking their Chinese supplier to use a fake COA, which enters dangerous territory.

I was responding to somebody giving the argument that customers shouldn't be upset that they were repeatedly lied to because look over here *shakes free sample bag*. That **** works on my dog, but customers deserve better.

I'm fairly confident you're responding to the owner (or at least one)...so he's read the emails

 

[Aleksandar37]

^ Got screwed by them, and you still bought their stuff at a discount or free (Morals galore bro)... and I'm naive. Sounds like a love hate situation to me. And there's nothing like the feeling of stepping all over a dead man's company's grave, eh?!

You boys want to keep on quoting my post and talking? I'm game. Never mind. You win.
I promise to never buy their stuff again. lol.

Damn. I wish I had some Max Reps. I imagine it was like... crack.

The crack remark was an analogy...

 

[justhere4comm]

The crack remark was an analogy...

I get it. It sucked, so I made fun of it using an allegorical.

 

[ValiantThor08]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3682735/

 

[ValiantThor08]

So I read charges against USP Labs, and all charges had to do with DMAA, being labeled as a plant extract, like geranium oil, etc, so in this case it isn't misleading to those who buy the supp, as we know that that refers to DMAA. Now the court doc says that it was synthetic DMAA, and not a plant extract of DMAA, and that COA and shipping info was falsified to decieve the FDA. What is the truth? I'm not sure. The FDA is not innocent, and I cannot say whether USP Labs is innocent either, as deciet, especially toward the FDA is a big issue.

 

[HIT4ME]

Jesus.. They're now candy dealin' pushing crack to children, and now wife beating grandma helpers...

lol.

^ Got screwed by them, and you still bought their stuff at a discount or free (Morals galore bro)... and I'm naive. Sounds like a love hate situation to me. And there's nothing like the feeling of stepping all over a dead man's company's grave, eh?!

You boys want to keep on quoting my post and talking? I'm game. Never mind. You win.
I promise to never buy their stuff again. lol.

Damn. I wish I had some Max Reps. I imagine it was like... crack.

First off - you are the one bringing up weak analogies to begin with - comparing acetominophen to DMAA? Come on. The analogy is like saying, "Heroin and Benedryl both get metabolized by your liver. How is Benedryl still on the market?"

And then you are the one who calls people haters - and then when they lay out their reasoning, it's not good enough and you attack them (a second time) for responding and quoting your post?

I don't think I'd try to build my moral soap box on this one brother. We can concede that they aren't ALL bad...but you cannot seem to concede that they did a bad thing.

You're typically more intellectual than that. Your emotions are clearly leading you here.

Just for the record - the FDA got ephedrine pulled in the same way in the early 2000's and there WAS actual data indicating ephedrine's safety. I may be wrong, because I'm not as big a fan of stimulants as some people on these boards and haven't taken the time to research - but can you provide me with any studies indicating the safety of DMAA? Even a clinical case study?

 

[MrKleen73]

So I read charges against USP Labs, and all charges had to do with DMAA, being labeled as a plant extract, like geranium oil, etc, so in this case it isn't misleading to those who buy the supp, as we know that that refers to DMAA. Now the court doc says that it was synthetic DMAA, and not a plant extract of DMAA, and that COA and shipping info was falsified to decieve the FDA. What is the truth? I'm not sure. The FDA is not innocent, and I cannot say whether USP Labs is innocent either, as deciet, especially toward the FDA is a big issue.

They plead guilty, it became pretty cut and dry at that point... They had plenty of money for the defense and still couldn't get their defense strategy to hold up and knew they were going to lose. So they plead guilty to avoid a stiffer sentence. Pretty simple really... Thinking anything else is the case is really just trying to hold on to an affinity for the company. Which is completely understandable but is based in emotion and not logic.

 

[ValiantThor08]

To be neutral, I believe there is more research on tylenols negative effect on the liver than DMAA. In fact, there is probably more of a negative effect on the liver from legal alcohol than dmaa. That said, if there are no long term safety studies on DMAA, it is good to be leery of it's safety, short term or long term; and that should rest on the individual, not the states decision on whether it can or cannot be comsumed.

 

[ValiantThor08]

They plead guilty, it became pretty cut and dry at that point... They had plenty of money for the defense and still couldn't get their defense strategy to hold up and knew they were going to lose. So they plead guilty to avoid a stiffer sentence. Pretty simple really... Thinking anything else is the case is really just trying to hold on to an affinity for the company. Which is completely understandable but is based in emotion and not logic.

I get it. I'm trying to see this from a neutral standpoint, even if they plead guilty. I don't approve of manipulation and deciet, so if they were purposely delightful, their end is their fruit. Would of been better to just say: synthetic dmaa on label.

 

[carguy123]

I thought that was the incarnation after dmaa. Could be wrong though

Ageline?

I can’t remember exactly, I just remember when I worked in supps having to pull all their products during the second version. It may have been

Ding ding ding that was it thanks boyos

IIRC PES also got caught up in that Ageline debacle....hummm

 

[HIT4ME]

Jesus.. They're now candy dealin' pushing crack to children, and now wife beating grandma helpers...

lol.

To be neutral, I believe there is more research on tylenols negative effect on the liver than DMAA. In fact, there is probably more of a negative effect on the liver from legal alcohol than dmaa. That said, if there are no long term safety studies on DMAA, it is good to be leery of it's safety, short term or long term; and that should rest on the individual, not the states decision on whether it can or cannot be comsumed.

You are probably correct - but we have the data on acetominophen to make a risk/reward call. Millions of people use acetominophen, many abuse it, and we know how many end up in the hospital because of it. It is a known quantity. I'm not saying it is acceptable, unacceptable, etc. Just that we have the data. We also have data showing that it does something beneficial in many cases.

I am also of the mindset that people should be allowed to make their own decisions, make their own stupid mistakes, etc. as long as they live with them.

But USP labs broke laws, tried to do dishonest things, and has plead guilty. Google USP Labs and look at all the times they've been in the crosshairs. It isn't just DMAA. It is a number of times where they had excuses for substances that didn't belong. Usually it was "counterfeit product" - (speculation from this point forward) which brings on new meaning in light of the BSL's news from last week. Maybe "counterfeit" meant "only sold through certain channels". And that may seem like a stretch, but what I've seen in life is that when people do something they know is wrong that they may not get away with - they usually have someone else they can point to and say, "They're doing it, they're getting away with it, it's ok."

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Well they have always treated me good. I still have unopened max reps and aminos, will definitely either sell or use. I don’t really feel any kind of way towards them. If you do the crime, you do the time. It is what it is. I have a ton of their shirts and hats and their vanilla protein was possibly the best vanilla protein I’ve ever had.

 

[MrKleen73]

I get it. I'm trying to see this from a neutral standpoint, even if they plead guilty. I don't approve of manipulation and deciet, so if they were purposely delightful, their end is their fruit. Would of been better to just say: synthetic dmaa on label.

No doubt, but I think it would have then made it considered a medication, or it could have been construed as one. I do agree for the most part we should have the right to choose what we put in our bodies. However people are no longer okay with the Darwin theory of letting the weak or stupid die off. Instead the government, and society decided to protect them and we end up in this overpopulated state with more morons than we have ever had before mucking up the system.

I mean just look at some of the cycles people choose to run on here with no previous experience, and no supports or even a planned PCT on many occasions. Unfortunately we have to take care of those people instead of letting them run off a cliff like the now extinct dodo's. So the FDA will always meddle, and tell us what we can r can't do because it has to protect those who simply do not know better. That and they have to respond to their lobbiest interest if they want to keep getting those big donations coming...

 

[HIT4ME]

I get it. I'm trying to see this from a neutral standpoint, even if they plead guilty. I don't approve of manipulation and deciet, so if they were purposely delightful, their end is their fruit. Would of been better to just say: synthetic dmaa on label.

Also correct - and honestly I would say that requiring something to be from a natural source vs. synthetic is foolish on the FDA's part. I would much rather have these things made in a facility with quality control and know what I'm getting is what I expect (if they are good at it) vs. some random plant material. But that is a different argument and not the issue at hand.

 

[Old Witch]

As if we don’t ALL know that every (insert name) extract 98% (insert chemical name) is NEVER REALLY AN EXTRACT AND IS ALWAYS SYNTHETIC. Everything from anacyclus to yohimbine.

This whole issue is a joke. One company is somehow dishonest for doing what literally EVERY company does.

 

[Old Witch]

Personally, I prefer if companies skirt the law and put real active chemicals in their products. I just like knowing what they are and how much is all.

 

[MrKleen73]

Also correct - and honestly I would say that requiring something to be from a natural source vs. synthetic is foolish on the FDA's part. I would much rather have these things made in a facility with quality control and know what I'm getting is what I expect (if they are good at it) vs. some random plant material. But that is a different argument and not the issue at hand.

See the problem there is that I beleive the FDA calls that a drug, it must be from a plant / natural source to be considered a dietary supplement. Once synthetic "I think" that is when it is classified as a drug.

 

[ValiantThor08]

No doubt, but I think it would have then made it considered a medication, or it could have been construed as one. I do agree for the most part we should have the right to choose what we put in our bodies. However people are no longer okay with the Darwin theory of letting the weak or stupid die off. Instead the government, and society decided to protect them and we end up in this overpopulated state with more morons than we have ever had before mucking up the system.

I mean just look at some of the cycles people choose to run on here with no previous experience, and no supports or even a planned PCT on many occasions. Unfortunately we have to take care of those people instead of letting them run off a cliff like the now extinct dodo's. So the FDA will always meddle, and tell us what we can r can't do because it has to protect those who simply do not know better. That and they have to respond to their lobbiest interest if they want to keep getting those big donations coming...

Don't forget, they have to be able to sell their prescribed amphetamines, and legal heroin pills! So maybe FDA, and Pharma is still weeding out the "dumb", in a legal, and by legal, what they say is legal manner.

 

[BigGame84]

Ding ding ding that was it thanks boyos

IIRC PES also got caught up in that Ageline debacle....hummm

Yes, Ageline was in PES Enhanced (which was good).

Also in Versa-1.

There was talk about USP Labs and PES being affiliated at the time.

 

[rob112]

As if we don’t ALL know that every (insert name) extract 98% (insert chemical name) is NEVER REALLY AN EXTRACT AND IS ALWAYS SYNTHETIC. Everything from anacyclus to yohimbine.

This whole issue is a joke. One company is somehow dishonest for doing what literally EVERY company does.

Even brands like mega food dump synthetic vitamins into their mix’s to ferment. If that is the whole case I 100% agree.

 

[VaughnTrue]

See the problem there is that I beleive the FDA calls that a drug, it must be from a plant / natural source to be considered a dietary supplement. Once synthetic "I think" that is when it is classified as a drug.

this is incorrect according to DSHEA, but the FDA has been pushing for it in many cases. Think about it...do you think we could get all the vitamin C we need for supplements by squeezing oranges? No, it's produced synthetically just like almost every vitamin available to us. The same for the vast majority of supplement ingredients.

The only difference here is that USP said it was an extract, when it was not (both on the label as well as when importing)

 

[ValiantThor08]

this is incorrect according to DSHEA, but the FDA has been pushing for it in many cases. Think about it...do you think we could get all the vitamin C we need for supplements by squeezing oranges? No, it's produced synthetically just like almost every vitamin available to us. The same for the vast majority of supplement ingredients.

The only difference here is that USP said it was an extract, when it was not (both on the label as well as when importing)

Just thinking about that.

 

[Old Witch]

Even brands like mega food dump synthetic vitamins into their mix’s to ferment. If that is the whole case I 100% agree.

That is the basic idea behind the rest of the charges, yes. They used synthetics and claimed extractives, which constitutes “conspiracy to distribute adulterated products” or “misbranded” products.

It’s the dumbest thing possible.

 

[MrKleen73]

As if we don’t ALL know that every (insert name) extract 98% (insert chemical name) is NEVER REALLY AN EXTRACT AND IS ALWAYS SYNTHETIC. Everything from anacyclus to yohimbine.

This whole issue is a joke. One company is somehow dishonest for doing what literally EVERY company does.

Agreed as far as the actual issue goes. Still quite personally satisfying for me that I got to see karma came back around and bit them in the ass though...

Personally, I prefer if companies skirt the law and put real active chemicals in their products. I just like knowing what they are and how much is all.

Now that would be pretty damn cool!!! You gotta be in the "Inside Circle" to get that info!

 

[Old Witch]

Agreed as far as the actual issue goes. Still quite personally satisfying for me that I got to see karma came back around and bit them in the ass though...



Now that would be pretty damn cool!!! You gotta be in the "Inside Circle" to get that info!

Well, example, MedFit made a methyl tren nasal spray. It really had methyl tren in it, listed on the label and everything. Sold as a normal PH supplement OTC.

Companies just need to have massive balls.

 

[Old Witch]

The original Vicous Labs Necrobombs were Dianabol and Anadrol, sold as an OTC white market PH.

 

[00A]

Sad to see a once top notch company go...but they really have not had anything all that wonderful to offer in recent years anyway..

Top notch - hows your liver and kidneys??

 

[MrKleen73]

this is incorrect according to DSHEA, but the FDA has been pushing for it in many cases. Think about it...do you think we could get all the vitamin C we need for supplements by squeezing oranges? No, it's produced synthetically just like almost every vitamin available to us. The same for the vast majority of supplement ingredients.

The only difference here is that USP said it was an extract, when it was not (both on the label as well as when importing)

Yeah that is why I said I believe or think. One of those disclaimers. LOL. I couldn't remember if that was fact or just what they were trying to do.

Good point...

The original Vicous Labs Necrobombs were Dianabol and Anadrol, sold as an OTC white market PH.

Oh wow, did they actually list that on the bottle? Pretty brave!

I did see that Tren one too. Thought about picking some up.

 

[Old Witch]

Yeah that is why I said I believe or think. One of those disclaimers. LOL. I couldn't remember if that was fact or just what they were trying to do.

Good point...



Oh wow, did they actually list that on the bottle? Pretty brave!

I did see that Tren one too. Thought about picking some up.

Yeah they did. It listed the chemical nomenclatures rather than brand names IIRC. As in the dianabol was listed as 17a methyl androsta-1,4-diene-3-one-17b-ol

 

[ryanp81]

Read the entire report.

https://www.opss.org/sites/default/files/Report-of-the-DoD-DMAA-Safety-Review-Panel-2013.pdf


Page 38

Soldiers reporting DMAA use in 2011 had almost 40% lower odds of having an
adverse medical outcome (crude OR: 0.63, 95% CI: 0.47, 0.84), though this effect
diminished and lost statistical significance when adjusting for covariates (adjusted
OR: 0.85, 95% CI: 0.59, 1.23) (Table 4B)

View attachment 180989

Read it, don't care about you posting reports in order to save face for a company that has legitimately altered and mislabled products in order to make profit, cut corners and ultimately kill people.

Glad to see USP labs go under once and for all....should've happened a long time ago.

 

[00A]

Read it, don't care about you posting reports in order to save face for a company that has legitimately altered and mislabled products in order to make profit, cut corners and ultimately kill people.

Glad to see USP labs go under once and for all....should've happened a long time ago.

Fully agree.. the general public feel the same.. not sure how one can defend them

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

One part of idictment talked about a plant that was listed "Extract" - but was instead just ground up root. That plant banned in countries where it grow (in Asia - maybe Korea, have to look). That plant on US list for being unsafe - having caused 100% abortions in pigs. That plant put in product.

Scummy company for sure - the guy in CA that produced the stuff (contract mfg) - Satesh something - already in jail (for second time).

Buh-bye...

 

[VaughnTrue]

One part of idictment talked about a plant that was listed "Extract" - but was instead just ground up root. That plant banned in countries where it grow (in Asia - maybe Korea, have to look). That plant on US list for being unsafe - having caused 100% abortions in pigs. That plant put in product.

Scummy company for sure - the guy in CA that produced the stuff (contract mfg) - Satesh something - already in jail (for second time).

Buh-bye...

I used to buy 3,3' diiodo from that guy

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

I remember reading, when indictment first came out (2 years?) a long detailed thread on here - I can't find it? Was it removed?

 

[Mixelflick]

USP is really a case study in greed, false labeling and consumer deceit.

When they debuted Cissus and later SuperCissus, it was a great start. Legit, herbal wonder they had a good rep. Little by little though, things started getting dodgier as new products were released. Jacked3D or whatever was the real tipping point. They chose to import synthetic DMAA labeled as "green tea extract" or some such nonsense, and got sloppy by retaining the emails and working with a 3rd party (on the west coast, if I'm not mistaken).

Had they stuck with their original Cissus model, not ventured into stimulants/dieting aids they might still be around today. I never used max reps, but it followed the Cissus model: Nothing sketchy, research proven doses, reasonably effective etc.. But it was too little, too late. After you've burned people with Prime, "Pink Magic" etc, it left a bad taste in their mouths...

 

[VaughnTrue]

USP is really a case study in greed, false labeling and consumer deceit.

When they debuted Cissus and later SuperCissus, it was a great start. Legit, herbal wonder they had a good rep. Little by little though, things started getting dodgier as new products were released. Jacked3D or whatever was the real tipping point. They chose to import synthetic DMAA labeled as "green tea extract" or some such nonsense, and got sloppy by retaining the emails and working with a 3rd party (on the west coast, if I'm not mistaken).

Had they stuck with their original Cissus model, not ventured into stimulants/dieting aids they might still be around today. I never used max reps, but it followed the Cissus model: Nothing sketchy, research proven doses, reasonably effective etc.. But it was too little, too late. After you've burned people with Prime, "Pink Magic" etc, it left a bad taste in their mouths...

if they didn't do Jack3d they'd still be a very small company compared to what they grew to. Jack3d sales were ABSURD for a good long while. They were making money hand over fist

 

[Mixelflick]

if they didn't do Jack3d they'd still be a very small company compared to what they grew to. Jack3d sales were ABSURD for a good long while. They were making money hand over fist

No doubt, but at what cost?

I'd rather be the CEO of a small company turning a small profit, vs. CEO of a large company that's been charged with very serious crimes. As it stands, whatever profits they made from Jacked3D will likely wind up in 1 of 2 places: The government's coffers or his attorney.

USP Labs, Blackstone. It sounds like the gov't is getting serious about cracking down on supplement companies. Glad I was never tempted to spike product, pull fast ones on consumers etc.. We all have to make a living, but losing your freedom just isn't worth it IMO.

 

[ryanp81]

if they didn't do Jack3d they'd still be a very small company compared to what they grew to. Jack3d sales were ABSURD for a good long while. They were making money hand over fist

Absolutely, I remember when USPlabs had only a handful of products like cAMPHIBOLIC and Cissus-RX in the red and blue labels.

 

[enhanced]

Damn!! I remember the camphibolic!! Going way back there!! I also remember the 1-carboxy powder. Huge gh release.

 

[hardknock]

the original powerful was one of the 1st online purchases I ever made....it was fantastic, then 'new' formulas came out and none were even close to the original?

I carried the OG powerful in my webstore. I sold out every week...

Also, original Yellow Gold was amazing. Other than those and OG jack3d, nothing else "worked" for my people.

 

[hardknock]

Dang they killed some Army private.. and did not know DMAA was hepatoxic majorly?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/03/18/dallas-lab-owners-admit-multi-million-scheme-fraudulently-sell-dietary-supplements

Technically they did not kill the person. Was there not a story that she took 3x(3X the max dose for dmaa) the dosage and went running? Maybe a different story??

With all due respect to her family, that's a lack of education. Not saying it's her "fault". Just a slip up in researching what was in it. This unless dmaa was hidden but I cant remember.

I know I'm in the very low minority but even in highschool I wouldn't take the OG NoDoz without trying to figure out what was in it.

But I was different I guess. I overly paced myself when drinking. If i seen someone getting drunk from 5 shots of whiskey then I'd only do two...

 

[hardknock]

So if I hand out crack to kids and tell them it's candy, I'm Willy ****ing Wonka?! That makes me generous? They lied and somebody could have gotten seriously harmed. People are on all kinds of supplements and medications, so something that might be benign for most could be extremely dangerous to somebody else, especially because of interactions. It's also this kind of crap that is going to make it harder for honest supplement companies and gives the FDA yet another reason to step up restrictions.

I've never understood the concept of taking script meds with supplements. This unless they are of two complete different origins and uses i.e. protein power and prescription nasal spray.

Both of you are correct though. If Rkelly has paid for 10 girls college tuition it doesnt remove the fact that he raped multiple underage girls but also doesnt remove the fact that he paid legal aged girls college tuition.

 

[hardknock]

In my 25 years of iron, why do I keep missing all the tainted stuff?! Dammit

From now on, someone PM me when they have the good stuff. lol

Lmoa ?

 

[jrock645]

I've never understood the concept of taking script meds with supplements. This unless they are of two complete different origins and uses i.e. protein power and prescription nasal spray.

Both of you are correct though. If Rkelly has paid for 10 girls college tuition it doesnt remove the fact that he raped multiple underage girls but also doesnt remove the fact that he paid legal aged girls college tuition.

I’ll keep listening to r kelly’s music even if he records from death row. Even if he is a scumbag, he music is still good.

 

[hardknock]

Exactly, so what they gave away a bunch of tainted supplement and the Anabolic mind community must be Il right thank you for that???. If I decide to use DMAA or DMHA or prohormone (not saying there product contain it) this my decision, it does not have to come from a **** company like them or Driven sport. Jeezz the level of **** sucking ball of some people here is just WOW!!!!

Well honestly for most of the companies that have been busted for the past 10 years, we knew we were taking something beyond the realm of normal. We had suspicions that it was not all natural. Any decent knowledgeable human knew that craze wasnt just a normal shelf product. I knew that from the 1st batch that I tried...

I cant say that the majority of users whom just visit a supp section on a website, reads two reviews then buys, can be held to the same standard as guys like us who live on websites and research ingredients. I wont place that burden on them but let's be honest, it's not like everyone is clueless...OG jacked I knew wasnt normal from one dose, period . And i had not read the label but was going off of my business partner's recommended listing when we were opening our store.

I'm just saying, a person of legal age and sound mind, when is the government going to place 5% of the burden on their shoulders?

And I wouldnt be against big Gov stepping in, if big Gov would quit lying about protecting people when their Pharma companies are killing a plethora of people per year.

 

[hardknock]

I get it. I'm trying to see this from a neutral standpoint, even if they plead guilty. I don't approve of manipulation and deciet, so if they were purposely delightful, their end is their fruit. Would of been better to just say: synthetic dmaa on label.

They cant place "synthetic" supplement on the label due to it being a drug at that point.

I was nearly sure they would have fo claim it as a drug at that point if it was found to be on the schedule listing?

 

[hardknock]

As if we don’t ALL know that every (insert name) extract 98% (insert chemical name) is NEVER REALLY AN EXTRACT AND IS ALWAYS SYNTHETIC. Everything from anacyclus to yohimbine.

This whole issue is a joke. One company is somehow dishonest for doing what literally EVERY company does.

They are dishonest but also the people dying from said products were irresponsible, lastly I'd be willing to bet that every single company that had an unbelievable product had some dirt on their hands somewhere.

Whether it was the product or the means of how they got the funding for the product, or several people they screwed over to get on that popular pedestal. No human is 100% clean for a fact.

 

[hardknock]

Don't forget, they have to be able to sell their prescribed amphetamines, and legal heroin pills! So maybe FDA, and Pharma is still weeding out the "dumb", in a legal, and by legal, what they say is legal manner.

Yes Big Pharma wants the smallest players out so that they can peddle drugs (some actually peddling drugs illegally) and keep every hooked on top class drugs and whatnot.

This guy just got sentenced along with 8 other doctors and secretaries for peddling opioids for 11 years but cops/DEAs/sheriff's/trainers/dentist/ plastic surgeons/so forth openly knew about it during that time and have even been prescribed by this "doctor" from said pillmill

Anyone that tries to tell me that over 11yrs with those types of patients coming to you and not one time the FBI knew anything?????

Insurance companies were being defrauded for the better part of 7 years but no one reported anything until it all got so far out of hand until a newborn could see the shade and what was happening. The insurance companies just reported the fraud in 2016 but it's been happening since 2010.

People from the "doctors office", affiliates, and some insurance representatives were all sentenced...

 

[hardknock]

this is incorrect according to DSHEA, but the FDA has been pushing for it in many cases. Think about it...do you think we could get all the vitamin C we need for supplements by squeezing oranges? No, it's produced synthetically just like almost every vitamin available to us. The same for the vast majority of supplement ingredients.

The only difference here is that USP said it was an extract, when it was not (both on the label as well as when importing)

But Vaughn is it not true that if a supplement company says that it is using synthetic substances then it would face more regulations other than from a labeling standpoint.
I'm not talking vitamins but for instance steroids, amphetamines...