ProSynthesis-17 (IMPORTANT QUESTION):

Mike Arnold

Board Sponsor
Ok, guys, we are ready to go into production, but before I do, I have an important question to ask everyone who might be interested in using this product. I have been asking this question everywhere I can, and the feedback I received will decide what I do.

Here is the question...

I can make ProSynthesis-17 with either natural or artificial sweeteners.


Artificial Sweeteners

Upside: The artificially sweetened sample tastes good. It's nothing special and not the best flavored product ever made, but it's good. There is no bad aftertaste and it is easy to drink.

Downside: The downside is that ALL artificial sweeteners are bad for your health. They cause damage to the gut microbiome, they are metabolically damaging (decreaed insulin senstivity), they increase the risk of cancer, they damage the nervous system, and they increase the risk of neurological disorders, and many other things. Furthermore, many people don't feel very well after consuming them. After drinking them, for about 1-2 hours, they get a headache and/or just don't feel very well.

Natural Sweeteners

Downside: The naturally sweetened sample I received does not taste good. It's tastes OK when I'm actually drinking it. It's not really bad, but kind of neutral. In other words, I could easily drink it without being grossed out, but I wouldn't drink it for pleasure. However, it has a bitter aftertaste that only comes out once you're done drinking it. It's not horrible, but it's not nice either. It does make me want to eat a piece of gum or something afterwards, to get the aftertaste out of my mouth.

Upside: They are MUCH better for your health. You can drink them and afterwards, you feel good. There are zero known ill health effects associated with them.
 
Dang that’s a tricky one. I hate artificial sweeteners, but I also hate gagging down a not tasty drink!
 
What about Stevia ???
 
Artificial. I don’t buy products for taste. However, if I’m drinking it every single workout (I train “fasted”) and it’s leaving a bad taste in my mouth I would be unlikely to reorder.

It doesn’t need to be something I look forward to drinking. But if it’s something I despise drinking, it’s just not going to be a regular purchase if that makes sense.
 
Any way they can use mostly natural flavor and a little of the artificial to pick up the slack on flavor?

Also, if going purely natural flavors you could just use basic flavors like lemon lime or orange.

I won't be upset if we don't get fancy flavors like artic unicorn blood lol
 
@Mike Arnold, Artificial gets my vote. As I get older, I can’t seem to stomach supplements that taste bad. I just got rid of 8 tubs of pres and some EAAs (mostly full tubs) because I just couldn’t stomach the bad taste. They were actually ruining my workouts and causing me nausea
 
The consumer side of me says natural. The business side of me says artificial. If it’s an unpleasant drinking experience it will not sell follow up units no matter how effective the ingredient profile is. Particularly with intras, they need to provide a sense of refreshment.
Honestly, if I feel that this product is more effective than the competitors, I will deal with suboptimal flavors, as long as it isn’t terrible. I can always try to mask it with some coconut water or even a dash of external flavoring if the product is worth it. I really don’t like all the artificial stuff I’m consuming while I’m supposed to be getting fit.
 
Rad83 said:
Guess I didn’t realize artificial flavors were that bad 🤦‍♂️
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They arent. Like everything the poison is in the dose. Drinking 10 diet sodas a day on top of a diet full of highly processed food is bad by any measure. Having 2 or 3 artificial sweetener drinks a day along with a balanced diet - meh!
 
Expanding on my vote, I'll be honest I am interested in this product and at this point regardless of the decision I'll purchase a tub. With that said I doubt I'll be a repeat buyer if you go the natural route as at this point I just don't think I'd care enough to slug back an EAA drink that I will probably be drinking nearly every day that tastes bad.
 
Artificial 100%. It’s really easy for everyone to say oh yeah I want to be healthy….and then they stop buying your product. Artificial sweeteners have killed no one.
 
Maybe do two versions. Version one is called good tasting and that's 100% natural sweeteners. Version 2 is called better tasting and that is however much artificial you need to make it taste the best.

Then there's the saying that goes something like: The customer is always right when it comes to purchase decisions and see which one sells the best. If one really outpaces the other then cancel one.

Both sell really well. Keep them both.
 
Artificial. 100%

Look at the soda aisle of any store. Regular diet products outsell the random Stevia ones by 100x
 
Falco1098 said:
Maybe do two versions. Version one is called good tasting and that's 100% natural sweeteners. Version 2 is called better tasting and that is however much artificial you need to make it taste the best.

Then there's the saying that goes something like: The customer is always right when it comes to purchase decisions and see which one sells the best. If one really outpaces the other then cancel one.

Both sell really well. Keep them both.
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This is what I was going to suggest. Don’t need to go crazy, maybe even just one or two flavors of each. NutraBio does this, but they also very clearly differentiate. I’d make sure to do that so people aren’t thrown off if they expect a great taste and accidentally order the natural. But it would be good to have the natural option as I know a lot of people avoid products simply because of artificial colors, flavors, or sweeteners.
 
Mike Arnold said:
Ok, guys, we are ready to go into production, but before I do, I have an important question to ask everyone who might be interested in using this product. I have been asking this question everywhere I can, and the feedback I received will decide what I do.

Here is the question...

I can make ProSynthesis-17 with either natural or artificial sweeteners.


Artificial Sweeteners

Upside: The artificially sweetened sample tastes good. It's nothing special and not the best flavored product ever made, but it's good. There is no bad aftertaste and it is easy to drink.

Downside: The downside is that ALL artificial sweeteners are bad for your health. They cause damage to the gut microbiome, they are metabolically damaging (decreaed insulin senstivity), they increase the risk of cancer, they damage the nervous system, and they increase the risk of neurological disorders, and many other things. Furthermore, many people don't feel very well after consuming them. After drinking them, for about 1-2 hours, they get a headache and/or just don't feel very well.

Natural Sweeteners

Downside: The naturally sweetened sample I received does not taste good. It's tastes OK when I'm actually drinking it. It's not really bad, but kind of neutral. In other words, I could easily drink it without being grossed out, but I wouldn't drink it for pleasure. However, it has a bitter aftertaste that only comes out once you're done drinking it. It's not horrible, but it's not nice either. It does make me want to eat a piece of gum or something afterwards, to get the aftertaste out of my mouth.

Upside: They are MUCH better for your health. You can drink them and afterwards, you feel good. There are zero known ill health effects associated with them.
Click to expand...

Monk fruit ftw . Look up Lakanto as Raw supplier .
 
Falco1098 said:
They arent. Like everything the poison is in the dose. Drinking 10 diet sodas a day on top of a diet full of highly processed food is bad by any measure. Having 2 or 3 artificial sweetener drinks a day along with a balanced diet - meh!
Click to expand...

Maybe but then you also drink the pre workout the eaa drink the protein drink and it’s starting to add up . So by the end of the day 3 sodas 2 protein shakes and a eaa drink can add lot of artificial flavors but according to layne Norton your fine and no side effects he even references studies
 
Like others have said try and use natural with just enough artificial to enhance the taste. If that’s not an option I’m on board for artificial
 
Mike Arnold said:
Natural Sweeteners

Downside: The naturally sweetened sample I received does not taste good. It's tastes OK when I'm actually drinking it. It's not really bad, but kind of neutral. In other words, I could easily drink it without being grossed out, but I wouldn't drink it for pleasure. However, it has a bitter aftertaste that only comes out once you're done drinking it. It's not horrible, but it's not nice either. It does make me want to eat a piece of gum or something afterwards, to get the aftertaste out of my mouth.
Click to expand...


Also, if you yourself are having doubts, then how are consumers really going to feel when tasting the product? As I recall this is a huge serving size. It’s going to go down a lot easier if it tastes better.

It’s easy to say you’ll buy a product. Repeat purchases are much harder if the taste is as you’re describing.

Just my opinion, hope the product is successful regardless. Thanks for asking
 
The more I think about it and the more I read, Good Taste is going to produce a lot better sales!
 
Rocket3015 said:
What about Stevia ???
Click to expand...
That's what I used for the sample. Actually, I used eSwevia, which is a patented, improved, less bitter version of Stevia.

But...it still can't compare to sucralose.
 
Falco1098 said:
Maybe do two versions. Version one is called good tasting and that's 100% natural sweeteners. Version 2 is called better tasting and that is however much artificial you need to make it taste the best.

Then there's the saying that goes something like: The customer is always right when it comes to purchase decisions and see which one sells the best. If one really outpaces the other then cancel one.

Both sell really well. Keep them both.
Click to expand...
I am leaning towards this. I very well might end u releasing 2 versions. I would release only one at first....and then follow it up with an alternate version.
 
djbombsquad said:
Monk fruit ftw . Look up Lakanto as Raw supplier .
Click to expand...
I love Monk fruit, BUT...it doesn't go well with fruity flavors because it has an earthy taste to it. It is also brown in color, so it makes an otherwise clear product look like dirty water.

However, Monk Fruit is excellent with most protein powder flavors, such as chocolate, chocolate peanut butter, vanilla, , or anything else that isn't fruit flavored.
 
Thank you for all the feedback, guys. I am going to make it work one way or another...even if I have to release 2 versions.
 
Mike Arnold said:
I love Monk fruit, BUT...it doesn't go well with fruity flavors because it has an earthy taste to it. It is also brown in color, so it makes an otherwise clear product look like dirty water.

However, Monk Fruit is excellent with most protein powder flavors, such as chocolate, chocolate peanut butter, vanilla, , or anything else that isn't fruit flavored.
Click to expand...

My monk fruit is white from Lakanto no earthy flavor
 
Mike Arnold said:
Thank you for all the feedback, guys. I am going to make it work one way or another...even if I have to release 2 versions.
Click to expand...
Wonderful. Do a good(no artificial) and better(as much artificial as needed). Run for 6m and see how sales go and make a decision from there.
 
Mike Arnold said:
It is probably combined with erythritol. Those products are white, but are mostly made of erythritol.
Click to expand...

100% Monk fruit powder is typically light beige to off-white in color. The exact shade may vary slightly depending on the brand and processing method used to create the powder, but it is generally a pale white neutral color.
 
djbombsquad said:
100% Monk fruit powder is typically light beige to off-white in color. The exact shade may vary slightly depending on the brand and processing method used to create the powder, but it is generally a pale white neutral color.
Click to expand...
Yes, and it is that brown tint that makes otherwise clear drinks look like dirty water. The degree of brown tint present is largely dependent on mongriside content. The higher the percentage of mongrisides, the less apparent the brown tint. Pure mongisides themselves are white. The problem with using monk fruit extracts with a super high mongriside content is that they are difficult to evenly mix into dry powders. You can buy them, but most products don't use them. Extracts with a super high mongriside content are easier to use when making ready-drink-products because the mongrisides dissolve into the solution. There's also a cost difference. Generally speaking, monk fruit goes great with non-fruit flavored items, such as chocolate flavors and stuff that like that; both because of the color and the taste. I think monk fruit is great. It just isn't the best choice for all things.



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Mike Arnold said:
It is probably combined with erythritol. Those products are white, but are mostly made of erythritol.
Click to expand...

Just catching this thread. I'll lob a personal vote for natural - it seems like there is a "sweet spot" for me with eryth/stevia blend leaning much heavier towards eryth. Anyone who has had a Virgil's Zero Orange Cream Soda knows it's possible for natural to get pretty darn close to sugary goodness ;) That is also giving great leniency with what are termed "natural flavors" which are added to nearly all of these "natural" products with little oversight. (I'm hoping from your comment there isn't anything inherently wrong with eryth, just the fact it's cheap and used to mislabel for higher markup 🤞 I saw the recent study published but also saw it debunked, or the findings at least greatly minimized pretty quickly after)

For me, it totally comes down to use of product - if it is purely a "pre-workout" or a product geared towards getting the most out of a singular physical event, those should only really be happening 2-3 times a week max if one were hypothetically pushing to near total physical exertion. (think professional soccer, basketball, etc. pushing your body to the redline can be severely damaging to certain muscle, taxing on the central nervous system, etc. so this is a time for me not to worry about artificial vs. natural flavors given the impending acute damage done to the body)

For a product that is supposed to be more of a general health or nearly every day supp, I'd go for natural. I get why most products don't, it's really a niche market within coastal and major metro hubs. Though, I feel that can sometimes set larger buying trends via social media, I feel like we're headed for a much more cost-effective strategy by both consumer and supplier.
I think there's a potential to tell a story about why a company chooses natural AND own why it is absolutely a "difficult to swallow" switch initially for the consumer (higher prices, taste will be "off" from chemical/processed/sugar options, but that fact that ultimately with time and repetition the consumer will quite literally adjust their taste and will actually prefer it in the long term (positive psych will do wonders) but 🤷‍♂️
 
I just opened my EAA products, so I need this soon. !!
 
artificial because taste matters

I've used stuff that tasted so bad I had to parachute it and so I speak from experience, make it taste good using any combo of natural and artificial flavoring and you'll have a winner
 
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Artificial

I will buy whatever you make Mike, but I will not repeat buy if I can’t stomach it.

We were using a lemon lime EAA for my wife we both loved. Ordered 4 tubs of pink lemonade in the same product when it was time to re-stock. It tastes so awful, we will never repurchase (and this is artificially flavored, in a flavor that is universally awesome). I can’t even use it because it makes me sick halfway through training, and I have drank a lot of nasty stuff for gains in the last decade. Amino acids are not worth ruining my training; I can eat more food less conveniently.

We have so few hours in the week we get to go enjoy training - the training window is sacred.
 
Mike Arnold said:
Ok, guys, we are ready to go into production, but before I do, I have an important question to ask everyone who might be interested in using this product. I have been asking this question everywhere I can, and the feedback I received will decide what I do.

Here is the question...

I can make ProSynthesis-17 with either natural or artificial sweeteners.


Artificial Sweeteners

Upside: The artificially sweetened sample tastes good. It's nothing special and not the best flavored product ever made, but it's good. There is no bad aftertaste and it is easy to drink.

Downside: The downside is that ALL artificial sweeteners are bad for your health. They cause damage to the gut microbiome, they are metabolically damaging (decreaed insulin senstivity), they increase the risk of cancer, they damage the nervous system, and they increase the risk of neurological disorders, and many other things. Furthermore, many people don't feel very well after consuming them. After drinking them, for about 1-2 hours, they get a headache and/or just don't feel very well.

Natural Sweeteners

Downside: The naturally sweetened sample I received does not taste good. It's tastes OK when I'm actually drinking it. It's not really bad, but kind of neutral. In other words, I could easily drink it without being grossed out, but I wouldn't drink it for pleasure. However, it has a bitter aftertaste that only comes out once you're done drinking it. It's not horrible, but it's not nice either. It does make me want to eat a piece of gum or something afterwards, to get the aftertaste out of my mouth.

Upside: They are MUCH better for your health. You can drink them and afterwards, you feel good. There are zero known ill health effects associated with them.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you flat out: 99% of peoples first question about pre's, protein's and aminos is "Does it taste good?" 99% of people don't give two shits about NNS use in their supps and the crowd that does is not even remotely interested in maximizing anabolism.

This is my 23+ years of experience in the retail supp side of things. Go with what tastes good as their are no results let alone repeat sales when a product sits on the customer shelf after choking down two servings.
 
Hyde said:
Artificial

I will buy whatever you make Mike, but I will not repeat buy if I can’t stomach it.

We were using a lemon lime EAA for my wife we both loved. Ordered 4 tubs of pink lemonade in the same product when it was time to re-stock. It tastes so awful, we will never repurchase (and this is artificially flavored, in a flavor that is universally awesome). I can’t even use it because it makes me sick halfway through training, and I have drank a lot of nasty stuff for gains in the last decade. Amino acids are not worth ruining my training; I can eat more food less conveniently.

We have so few hours in the week we get to go enjoy training - the training window is sacred.
Click to expand...

Can you share what brand so I can stay away??
 
dcittadini said:
Just catching this thread. I'll lob a personal vote for natural - it seems like there is a "sweet spot" for me with eryth/stevia blend leaning much heavier towards eryth. Anyone who has had a Virgil's Zero Orange Cream Soda knows it's possible for natural to get pretty darn close to sugary goodness ;) That is also giving great leniency with what are termed "natural flavors" which are added to nearly all of these "natural" products with little oversight. (I'm hoping from your comment there isn't anything inherently wrong with eryth, just the fact it's cheap and used to mislabel for higher markup 🤞 I saw the recent study published but also saw it debunked, or the findings at least greatly minimized pretty quickly after)

For me, it totally comes down to use of product - if it is purely a "pre-workout" or a product geared towards getting the most out of a singular physical event, those should only really be happening 2-3 times a week max if one were hypothetically pushing to near total physical exertion. (think professional soccer, basketball, etc. pushing your body to the redline can be severely damaging to certain muscle, taxing on the central nervous system, etc. so this is a time for me not to worry about artificial vs. natural flavors given the impending acute damage done to the body)

For a product that is supposed to be more of a general health or nearly every day supp, I'd go for natural. I get why most products don't, it's really a niche market within coastal and major metro hubs. Though, I feel that can sometimes set larger buying trends via social media, I feel like we're headed for a much more cost-effective strategy by both consumer and supplier.
I think there's a potential to tell a story about why a company chooses natural AND own why it is absolutely a "difficult to swallow" switch initially for the consumer (higher prices, taste will be "off" from chemical/processed/sugar options, but that fact that ultimately with time and repetition the consumer will quite literally adjust their taste and will actually prefer it in the long term (positive psych will do wonders) but 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
Believe me, I want to go the natural route, but when running a supp company, it can't be just about what I want. I agree that an Erythritol and stevia combo can work well, but I don't consider Erythritol to be much better than the rest of the artificial sweeteners, as it also has a bunch if unwanted health effects. This would pretty much limit me to stevia/eSwevia and/or and monk fruit.

Also, keep in mind that the high dose of methionine in ProSynthesis-17 makes flavoring difficult. This is why nearly every supp company puts barely any methionine in their products. I've seen companies dose it as low as 25 mg in an 8 gram serving. 50-100 gm is extremely common, which is still crazy low. I am unaware of a single company that actually uses the proper amount of methionine in their EAA product. Not one. The dose typically added to EAA products is SO FARA WAY from the proper ratio that it barely even makes a complete protein. I'm not exaggerating. Most people have no idea that the EAA product they are using has a horrible, HORRIBLE EAA ratio. For the sake of comparison, a single serving of ProSynthesis contains 1,700 mg of methionine.
 
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Make taste good!
 
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