Prop blends - We NEED your feedback!

[nattydisaster]

I wanted to address the issue, or idea rather of proprietary blends and see what everyone here on Anabolic Minds feels towards them.

With the success of the PES line up, we are quickly seeing large mega-marketing mainstream companies source our materials and attempt to copy our products. As you all know PES is very young and very innovative, and we have not used any prop blends. What this has caused though is other companies to do ZERO research and development at all, and call up a supplier and instantly rip off our hard work.

Certain things cannot be copied, like AnaBeta where we use a specific extraction. But other things like Higenamine can be be instantly ripped off. An ingredient we brought to the market and spent forever researching. You may remember how old the Beta Stim thread is for instance. That was on the tail end of our research and development.

I know proprietary blends are used for companies to hide simple formulas and no one is a fan of that. But when it comes to innovative ingredients and formulas, how do small innovative companies bringing new ideas and ingredients to the industry get protection?

I know the audience loves no Prop blends. The prop blend is the only solution to copy cats for a small company and innovative company. In order for PES to grow and service a large client base and keep our cost down without copy cats ripping into our ideas, how do we grow?

Do we spend tons of money and enter mega marketing campaigns to compete with them and drive up the cost of our products to YOU?

I am not speaking for just PES, but all innovative companies who are not in the position to instantly mega-market their innovative products. These massive companies ripping off small companies will put the small companies out of business and will leave NO INNOVATION in the industry.

Where does the line get drawn? Do we continue with no proprietary blends and let the huge companies rip us off? Or do we move to a proprietary blend to protect our ideas and innovation?

Nothing is set in stone here, I am just looking for opinions.

We have a lot of innovation in the future and with the way things have been going we would hate to see the hours we spend every day researching and testing over and over get instantly ripped off.

Obviously a proprietary blend would never be used in our products when the ingredients we use are well known...we are talking about new ingredients

 

[southpaw23]

You've earned enough trust and goodwill among your customer base. I see a prop blend with you guys a lot differently than I would say if it were a company like Gaspari, who had undetectable/insignificant amounts of Turk in their original preworkout Super Pump, yet still had it listed on the label and used in their marketing. My vote would be to go for the prop blend, at least you've earned it.

 

[WhatsaRoid?]

I'll still buy and recommend your company no problem.

 

[DAdams91982]

Sounds like Natty has some internal conflict going on!

 

[Rodja]

It's a double-edged sword. I personally don't mind prop blends unless there are 4572654752487 ingredients in a 1500mg serving.

 

[schizm]

I've generally not had any issues regarding the use of prop blends overall (from companies I trust) and understand that it does protect a company from the rip off's (even though as a consumer, that means I could save a few $)....but I'd really like to see a company such as PES survive/thrive and put more effective supps out there than me save a few $...so, prop n blend Natty!

 

[Bolanrox]

agreed it is a double edged sword. utlimately whether or not it is a prop blend, if the feedback isn't good who would use it?

 

[nattydisaster]

We would never use a prop blend to sneak in ingredients at ineffective doses. We would only include an ingredient if it was in there at the full and effective dose, like our line is now.

Appreciating the feedback thus far

 

[scoooter]

I would support Prop blends.

You must however consider the risk factors. Look at Lucky charms, Bush baked beans, they use prop blend to their advantage its good marketing. On the flip side unless there is complete disclosure there are sure to be skeptics, bashers and those who persist they know what it is they are putting into their body.

Having the product mfg in a GMP approved facility also helps

 

[DAdams91982]

I would support Prop blends.

You must however consider the risk factors. Look at Lucky charms, Bush baked beans, they use prop blend to their advantage its good marketing. On the flip side unless there is complete disclosure there are sure to be skeptics, bashers and those who persist they know what it is they are putting into their body.

Having the product mfg in a GMP approved facility also helps

 

[rms80]

I wanted to address the issue, or idea rather of proprietary blends and see what everyone here on Anabolic Minds feels towards them.

With the success of the PES line up, we are quickly seeing large mega-marketing mainstream companies source our materials and attempt to copy our products. As you all know PES is very young and very innovative, and we have not used any prop blends. What this has caused though is other companies to do ZERO research and development at all, and call up a supplier and instantly rip off our hard work.

Certain things cannot be copied, like AnaBeta where we use a specific extraction. But other things like Higenamine can be be instantly ripped off. An ingredient we brought to the market and spent forever researching. You may remember how old the Beta Stim thread is for instance. That was on the tail end of our research and development.

I know proprietary blends are used for companies to hide simple formulas and no one is a fan of that. But when it comes to innovative ingredients and formulas, how do small innovative companies bringing new ideas and ingredients to the industry get protection?

I know the audience loves no Prop blends. The prop blend is the only solution to copy cats for a small company and innovative company. In order for PES to grow and service a large client base and keep our cost down without copy cats ripping into our ideas, how do we grow?

Do we spend tons of money and enter mega marketing campaigns to compete with them and drive up the cost of our products to YOU?

I am not speaking for just PES, but all innovative companies who are not in the position to instantly mega-market their innovative products. These massive companies ripping off small companies will put the small companies out of business and will leave NO INNOVATION in the industry.

Where does the line get drawn? Do we continue with no proprietary blends and let the huge companies rip us off? Or do we move to a proprietary blend to protect our ideas and innovation?

Nothing is set in stone here, I am just looking for opinions.

We have a lot of innovation in the future and with the way things have been going we would hate to see the hours we spend every day researching and testing over and over get instantly ripped off.

Obviously a proprietary blend would never be used in our products when the ingredients we use are well known...we are talking about new ingredients

Interesting- and I deal with this quite a bit when formulating product. We get copied quite a bit on concepts and ingredients- we don't have the marketing of some of the bigger companies- and the strength of our line is in our formulations. People don't like proprietary blends, but in the situation you are describing, they are almost a necessary evil. Even if something is a proprietary blend, it doesn't mean that I researched it any less. Product research in my company is normally a 6-12 month process, and it involves multiple facets:
1. Ingredient effectiveness
2. Sound and/or complimentary MOA for each ingredient
3. Production feasibility- most companies that use a contract mfr. don't realize that 50% of a formulation is actually getting the product to run on high-speed machinery- that is an innovative process in itself, especially with many herbals
4. Blood testing- paramount- best way to find out if a product is working correctly
5. Testing different versions on subjects- also paramount- a lot of stuff looks good on paper, but yield no results
6. A good technical working explanation of the product- ours are usually 15-25 pages long, and give the consumer an education as to why and how the product works- most tech write-ups I see are a couple paragraphs

Basically the point I am trying to make is that there is no shame in proprietary blends, as long as they make sense and are well-researched. By well-researched, I mean by performing all of the above steps, and then figuring out where to source certain ingredients (can be hard)...

Having to file an NDI with every new ingredient may make this a moot point. We filed an NDI app with the FDA with an ingredient (Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione or 3, 7-Keto DHEA) in Free Test Mid-February 2010, and it was refused. While we went ahead and used it in the product, my main concern is that it may be a moot point in the future. New ingredients are getting tougher and tougher to actually get into larger vendors, as compliance is getting very strict. The industry has changed a lot in the last 3 years in terms of expectations regarding compliance, claims, consumer safety- and I am glad that it has.

 

[Bolanrox]

We would never use a prop blend to sneak in ingredients at ineffective doses. We would only include an ingredient if it was in there at the full and effective dose, like our line is now.

Appreciating the feedback thus far

based on the reviews for your products - truthfully I would still be getting ready to buy Erase whether it is a prop blend or not.

 

[MidwestBeast]

You're a company I certainly trust well enough and the products you have already released earn you the credibility to go prop. blend and still have my support. In general, I don't mind prop. blends as long as they make sense (like Rodja pointed out, not seeing a TON of ingredients in there). There are certain things, like caffeine and 1,3 dimeth that I prefer to know exactly how much I'm taking in, but outside of that, I don't see much of a problem with it. I think you deserve to to do that to avoid being copied.

I'll still buy PES products, prop. blend or not, until the day I find one that doesn't work.

 

[JudgementDay]

PES has certainly earned my trust to use prop-blends and still use their products :cheers:

 

[nattydisaster]

Appreciate it guys. Again this does not mean you are going to suddenly see prop blends left and right. The only reason we would consider using a blend would be to protect our innovation and research...and we are just getting a feel for everyones opinion

 

[R1balla]

i feel like if the company is an established, reliable company like PES, i dont see a prob with them. this prevents other companies or people from stealing your formula. again, only if its a reliable company that people know their products work. and PES products work!

 

[R1balla]

Dirk hit it spot on

 

[PrepNwa23]

I agree with lots of everyone else here on the board that PES has earned my trust that if they made a prop blend to protect themselves I would still buy their products. Cause every PES product i have used has worked which is every product besides Anabeta haven't tried it yet. So i say in the interest of protecting yourself go for it. We want to see companies like PES stay around bringing innovative products to the table.

 

[wsaucer]

You guys(PES) and other companies(Athletix) came out the gate with no prop blends and every product as been successful.You guys have given us products that are effective,no bs, and at a cost everyone can afford. That is great business practice. You have a loyal customer base and you've won the trust from us. If you go prop blend, we will stand by you and hold you to a standard of excellent products that work as we do now.

 

[BBB]

Nobody likes proprietary blends but "bottomline", if it works they will come.

 

[AtomicFox]

I agree PES has earned enough good will for me to buy their products even if they are prop blends, however I would of course still prefer it not to

 

[Independent]

Cant other companies just do chemical analysis to reverse engineer the product?

 

[rms80]

It is really hard to do with herbals- you need to have a decent standard, and many of the newer herbals do not have any decent/replicable standards. Plus, many different chemical fractions exist even within the same types of herbals, depending on the extraction, so it is hard to differentiate what the active substrate is. You would also need to have an HPLC, Mass Spec, or NMR, and someone who knows what they are looking at/for

 

[scoooter]

It is really hard to do with herbals- you need to have a decent standard, and many of the newer herbals do not have any decent/replicable standards. Plus, many different chemical fractions exist even within the same types of herbals, depending on the extraction, so it is hard to differentiate what the active substrate is. You would also need to have an HPLC, Mass Spec, or NMR, and someone who knows what they are looking at/for

reminds me of divinex

 

[nattydisaster]

Cant other companies just do chemical analysis to reverse engineer the product?

It is near impossible. The time and money one would have to do to only "possibly" get it right would not be worth it

Time would be better spent doing research and development of their own. But that might make too much sense

 

[ProteinMurder]

I think, even if good ideas are ripped off, people will stick with the original and best in most cases anyway.

 

[kmcart]

I have to agree with what everyone else is saying, even though I have not been fortunate enough (yet) to try any of the PES lineup I've only heard great things. When you build a solid reputation like PES has, with great products and prices, and upfront ingredients, you build a consumer base that is trusting and loyal. If you guys continue to put out great prooducts, prop blends or not people will still continue to go for PES.

 

[thebigt]

Nobody likes proprietary blends but "bottomline", if it works they will come.

i am on record as being opposed to prop blends....would i rather see pes able to reap rewards without them....YES.



but if pes is feeling the pinch on R[EMAIL="R@d"]@D[/EMAIL] dollars, and the difference between more great products or not is prop blends then i would have to cave, and say i want more pes!!!!!

 

[nattydisaster]

i am on record as being opposed to prop blends....would i rather see pes able to reap rewards without them....YES.but if pes is feeling the pinch on R[EMAIL="R@d"]@D[/EMAIL] dollars, and the difference between more great products or not is prop blends then i would have to cave, and say i want more pes!!!!!

I have been anxiously awaiting your opinion sir

 

[thebigt]

I have been anxiously awaiting your opinion sir

i try to keep an open mind.


i am willing to live with prop blends if it means more great pes products.


i say go for it!

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

I have used PES products and think very highly of them. I would have no problem using a prop blend from you guys.

 

[seccsi]

I'm very conflicted on this. First off I trust PES and don't think they would use prop blends as SOME other companies do which is to hide the amount of what is in something and probably increase profit. Would I buy PES products if they used prop blends? Yes, (as someone else already said) unless they give me a reason not to.

That said I appreciate companies that don't use prop blends, and am more likely to purchase products from them. A big part of me thinks I have a right to know exactly what (and how much) of something I'm putting into my body. So I'm always going to be in favor of companies shying away from that route and I'm always going to applaud (and support with my dollars if possible) the companies that allow me to know how what I'm putting into my body. I think I have a right to that, yet I understand the position some companies come from.

That said, does it REALLY provide that much of a mystery especially when using a small amount of ingredients? I'm just curious. If Alpha T2 was a prop blend would it not be 354 mgs of 3,3' -diiodo-l-thyronine, Rauwolscine HCl, and Higenamine? I just don't see what is to keep "stealing company A" from experimenting around a bit and figuring something quite close just based on that, but perhaps I miss something.

Bottom line is I'll support quality companies like PES until they give me a reason not to. We would all love to see no prop blends, but if your products continue to work I will continue to support them....but I'm always going to think it is my right to know what I'm putting in my body.

 

[thebigt]

I'm very conflicted on this. First off I trust PES and don't think they would use prop blends as SOME other companies do which is to hide the amount of what is in something and probably increase profit. Would I buy PES products if they used prop blends? Yes, (as someone else already said) unless they give me a reason not to.

That said I appreciate companies that don't use prop blends, and am more likely to purchase products from them. A big part of me thinks I have a right to know exactly what (and how much) of something I'm putting into my body. So I'm always going to be in favor of companies shying away from that route and I'm always going to applaud (and support with my dollars if possible) the companies that allow me to know how what I'm putting into my body. I think I have a right to that, yet I understand the position some companies come from.

That said, does it REALLY provide that much of a mystery especially when using a small amount of ingredients? I'm just curious. If Alpha T2 was a prop blend would it not be 354 mgs of 3,3' -diiodo-l-thyronine, Rauwolscine HCl, and Higenamine? I just don't see what is to keep "stealing company A" from experimenting around a bit and figuring something quite close just based on that, but perhaps I miss something.

Bottom line is I'll support quality companies like PES until they give me a reason not to. We would all love to see no prop blends, but if your products continue to work I will continue to support them....but I'm always going to think it is my right to know what I'm putting in my body.

i feel the same about prop blends.....but if natty says it's necessary then i am going to support him on that.

 

[seccsi]

i feel the same about prop blends.....but if natty says it's necessary then i am going to support him on that.

As will I...I tried to make that obvious from my post My "feelings" about prop blends won't ever change though.

 

[StangBanger]

a prop blend to protect your product would be understood as long as their are not 40 things in a 1000mg blend. I think a prop blend would go a long way by both claiming and having tested true of at least certain amounts for a couple of the big things people look for like beta-alanine or creatine, etc... the rest could be proped without much bother I think

 

[Aleksandar37]

I would take a prop blend from a company that I trust over amounts listed by a company that I don't. In other words, if I don't trust the comapny, I don't believe what is on their label whether it is prop blend or they give each and every ingredient amount. PES has earned my respect and will continue to see my money.

 

[JayJo]

Do you guys really think prob blends are needed? No prob blend has always been one reason why i love PES products!!!!!!!! (same goes to NTBM and their products like Need2Slin and HCGenerate)

 

[southpaw23]

Natty, has been upfront and honest since PES became sponsors here. There are many companies that I purchase specific products from, however, I would never delve into their entire line. I still don't trust them completely to give them all of my business. PES is among a handful of companies that I believe in 100% (reason: all of their products work...enough said) and would continue to stick with, as long as quality, research and effective measurable results remain their top priorities.

 

[R1balla]

I think, even if good ideas are ripped off, people will stick with the original and best in most cases anyway.

you would think so, but sadly thats not always the case

 

[R1balla]

Do you guys really think prob blends are needed? No prob blend has always been one reason why i love PES products!!!!!!!! (same goes to NTBM and their products like Need2Slin and HCGenerate)

if you owned a company and didnt use a prob blend, and people started to copy your formulas, would you start using prop?

 

[OrganicShadow]

Im in agreement with many here: it's a double edged sword.

When I consider investing in a new product, especially from a manufacturer I don't often use, I'm immediately put off when I see "Proprietary blend." I understand it's how a company keeps their formula safe but I also believe many big name companies *cough**cough* *Gaspari* *cough* *Muscletech*... excuse me, dry throat... hide the fact that half their mix is rice powder.

In the case of PES (I noticed a name change on the bottle), I've become a believer in your products to be quality. When a proprietary blend has 5 ingredient, OK... I can swing it. Looking at the order of each ingredient listed gives some leeway to understand the concentrations without giving exact amounts. When it has 10+ ingredients on the list I dismiss the idea of using it.

Life's a bitch but we gotta play by the rules even if they're not fair. Just puff your chest out and continue to do you... obviously you have a solid following, they won't be swayed. Especially if they read this initial post they may be more inclined to stick with their guns. If I was a frequent consumer of a company and suddenly saw one of my favorite products say "Proprietary blend" it would rub me the wrong way and probably compromise my faith in it. But having read this, I would feel differently. Mainly because I was before unknowing of WHY the change occurred.

 

[fightbackhxc]

You've earned enough trust and goodwill among your customer base. I see a prop blend with you guys a lot differently than I would say if it were a company like Gaspari, who had undetectable/insignificant amounts of Turk in their original preworkout Super Pump, yet still had it listed on the label and used in their marketing. My vote would be to go for the prop blend, at least you've earned it.

This for sure

 

[bla55]

I have a major problem with Prop Blends, yes, not going to lie. Some companies out there will use that crap to hide fillers and it is just annoying. "Works better than Anavar! Best Prop Blend out there!" So call me skeptical.

Do I think PES falls under that umbrella? No. I have grown to appreciate PES products and wouldn't refrain from buying something from PES because it is a Prop Blend.

Just be wary of the possible negative repercussions; say you release a new product, prop blend, and it doesn't work too well for some individuals. Then people will have some ground to start bashing PES as there could be some debate or some doubtfulness in the air as it is now a prop blend and not a full on ingredient. So just keep that in mind, it will give openings to those who want to bash.

But Haters are always gonn' hate so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[thebigt]

I would take a prop blend from a company that I trust over amounts listed by a company that I don't. In other words, if I don't trust the comapny, I don't believe what is on their label whether it is prop blend or they give each and every ingredient amount. PES has earned my respect and will continue to see my money.

wow-this is a great post. just because a company lists amounts of ingredients doesn't always translate into the label being truthfull...plus the quality of ingredients may differ from company to company.


if you find a company deserving of your trust, then i say stick with them.


GO PES!!!!

 

[bdcc]

I am against proprietary blends on the whole, here are my thoughts;

- Some companies use proprietary blends despite the ingredients in there being easily replicated. When the ingredient list is creatine, beta alanine, caffeine and 1,3 it leaves the door open for others to produce a product that looks exactly the same on paper.
- They are overused by companies who are hiding ingredient amounts. The savvy consumer realises that the amount of actives are often much smaller than necessary to give the desired effect. The mass market may not know better.

A serious question which was pointed out by someone else is PES are innovators. We don't use kitchen sink formulas therefore if we had a proprietary blend on a supplement with three ingredients I assume it could be replicated by another company so the consumer wouldn't know whose had the higher amount of the most important active ingredients (such as 3,3 in AT2). Therefore it could be copied anyway?

It is a shame that companies such as PES have to resort to this and put in the research for others to come along and copy it but I guess that is the nature of the business.

I will always want the innovators with strong ethics to triumph as much as possible therefore if a proprietary blend is necessary for PES to continue doing what it is doing then it is a small price to pay for the company to continue doing such a sterling job.

--

I have huge respect for Josh for discussing this issue with his customers before making any decision. It isn't something I have seen before and is a testament to always trying to put the customer first.

 

[JayJo]

if you owned a company and didnt use a prob blend, and people started to copy your formulas, would you start using prop?

Sure! But do we have copies of their (great) products on the market?

 

[Aleksandar37]

wow-this is a great post. just because a company lists amounts of ingredients doesn't always translate into the label being truthfull...plus the quality of ingredients may differ from company to company.


if you find a company deserving of your trust, then i say stick with them.


GO PES!!!!

Thank you! There are some companies out there that are just too sketchy and I'm not even sure what I would be able to do legally since they are supplements. I hate seeing a company like PES struggle over this issue since the general public really won't care and those of us who do care are going to more than likely be on these boards or contact them directly. The problem is that crap companies have put out crap products with prop blends and have thus given prop blends a bad name.

I know this is a difficult decision to make, but your products see results so you will have good word of mouth and repeat customers. The larger companies that put nothing but crap out there can take a hit because even if the customer only buys it once at a GNC, there are still enough sold to make a decent profit. PES will continue to grow based on word of mouth on the net and in quality stores and will see repeat customers. So if you have to use prop blends to protect your R&D time and money, then I say do it.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Also, there is a big difference between using prop blends for novel and innovative ingredients and using prop blends for basic ingredients like creatine, arginine, etc. However, even those have a time and place and there are companies that do it which I trust.

 

[AE14]

PES's reputation makes this conversation null and void imo. I have not seen one person that does not trust them, and would continue to do so even with prop blends.

 

[R1balla]

Sure! But do we have copies of their (great) products on the market?

you would be surprised